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Judgy Fucker posted:Agreed. Israel should end the genocide and apartheid to help ensure the lives of all Palestinians. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 01:19
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:One of Hamas' stances is that Israel needs to cease to exist as a state/people and all of Israel/Palestine should become Palestinian land again under Islamic rule. How exactly is that stance merely a "fight for freedom"? If Hamas was stating their goal was full independence and sovereignty alongside Israel that would be one thing, but their stance is literally the entire erasure of the state they have are currently at war with. Incorrect, the Hamas charter of 2017 says they'd be OK with a two state solution with the 1967 borders. Please do not post misinformation. https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
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Oct 10, 2023 01:19
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albedoa posted:Yikes! Did she tell you what comments they made? Honestly not pressing it but it’s bad enough that she’s not going back on campus for the foreseeable future and not wearing her Star of David.
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Oct 10, 2023 01:20
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Main Paineframe posted:The Israeli stance since 1948 has been that Palestinians need to cease to exist as a people and that all of Israel/Palestine should become Israeli land under Jewish rule. Moreover, Israel continues to act to make that stance reality to this very day, and they've made quite a bit of progress in it since they possess far more military power than Hamas ever has This is incredibly wrong and extremely reductionist. It has not been the Israeli stance since 1948. Rabin won a Nobel peace price and was literally assassinated because the official position of Israel under his government as recently as 1995 was explicitly not that. Labor governments up until the near collapse of the party in the last decade had an official stance that was the opposite of your claim.
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Oct 10, 2023 01:21
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Upgrade posted:Question: what do you think is an appropriate consequence for the people in this video espousing horrible views? Or for the videos upthread? Death? Cast them out, dont let them be part of society, shun them untill they understand why their attitude is so horrific.
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Oct 10, 2023 01:21
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:One of Hamas' stances is that Israel needs to cease to exist as a state/people and all of Israel/Palestine should become Palestinian land again under Islamic rule. How exactly is that stance merely a "fight for freedom"? If Hamas was stating their goal was full independence and sovereignty alongside Israel that would be one thing, but their stance is literally the entire erasure of the state they have are currently at war with. Hamas currently does not have the power to make this a reality, not even close. If by some miracle Palestine becomes free, and then Hamas is somehow able to overcome the combined military might of Israel and all of its allies, then we can have that conversation. But until then this is a fear on the same level as "we can't free the slaves because then they'll kill all the slave owners".
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Oct 10, 2023 01:23
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Upgrade posted:Question: what do you think is an appropriate consequence for the people in this video espousing horrible views? Or for the videos upthread? Death? I do not think having horrible views--even absolutely reprehensible views like endorsing outright genocide against repressed people living in an apartheid state--warrants death, no. It would be ideal if the leaders of Israel communicated that these types of views are unacceptable, though, instead of referring to the inhabitants of the open-air prison next door as "human animals" and bombing them in the way that the genocide supporters suggest would be an ideal solution. I think the people walking by in ear shot of their fellow citizens expressing such horrible views should offer some gentle and respectful pushback and promote views that respect human dignity.
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Oct 10, 2023 01:24
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Jaxyon posted:Incorrect, the Hamas charter of 2017 says they'd be OK with a two state solution with the 1967 borders. Fister Roboto posted:Hamas currently does not have the power to make this a reality, not even close. If by some miracle Palestine becomes free, and then Hamas is somehow able to overcome the combined military might of Israel and all of its allies, then we can have that conversation. But until then this is a fear on the same level as "we can't free the slaves because then they'll kill all the slave owners".
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Oct 10, 2023 01:24
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deoju posted:I was curious about the chants outside the Sydney Opera House, so I looked up some articles. I found the following: Video of the "following do not" chants: https://twitter.com/GLNoronha/status/1711530399766106267
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Oct 10, 2023 01:25
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Xander77 posted:https://www.camera.org/article/deutsche-welle-corrects-hamas-doesnt-accept-two-states/ I agree that there are discrepancies in the document. However it doesn't say that Israel must cease to exist.
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Oct 10, 2023 01:33
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Xander77 posted:Whatever happened to "supporting Palestine doesn't mean supporting Hamas", anyway? What do you mean by this?
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Oct 10, 2023 01:34
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Jaxyon posted:I agree that there are discrepancies in the document. However it doesn't say that Israel must cease to exist. quote:Let me reassure you, brothers and sisters, that the occupation has no future on the land of Palestine. When I say “the land of Palestine,” I am not referring [only] to the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and Jerusalem. When I say that the occupation has no future on the land of Palestine, I refer to Palestine from the [Mediterranean] Sea to the [Jordan] River, and from Rosh Hanikra to Rafah. not sure where Israel is supposed to exist if the state of Palestine emcomposses all the lands described in the document
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Oct 10, 2023 01:38
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Fister Roboto posted:What do you mean by this? Not that long ago (coincidentally, when the online left seemed a lot less thirsty for Israeli civilian blood), the common refrain was along the lines of "I support a free Palestine and a two state solution, but that doesn't mean I support a theocratic terrorist organization". Whatever happened to that? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 01:39
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Xander77 posted:I... mean what I wrote? Hamas should be supported because they are The democratically elected leaders of the Palestinian people and also because they provide the greatest opposition against Israel's genocidal aims right now. You don't have to approve of each individual act in the struggle but if you believe at all in supporting the oppressed against the oppressors, there is no question that Hamas are the ones on the side of liberation Upgrade posted:Do you support Joe Biden, the democratically elected leader of the United States? What a nonsensical post. If America was remotely deserving of support then yes it would follow I support Joe Biden luckily that's not the case. A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 01:43
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Typo posted:not sure where Israel is supposed to exist if the state of Palestine emcomposses all the lands described in the document Here: quote:However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus. Xander77 posted:I... mean what I wrote? Sounds like the only person conflating palestine and hamas is you? People are responding to a specific statement about Hamas.
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Oct 10, 2023 01:43
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A big flaming stink posted:Hamas should be supported because they are The democratically elected leaders of the Palestinian people and also because they provide the greatest opposition against Israel's genocidal aims right now. Do you support Joe Biden, the democratically elected leader of the United States? What a nonsensical post. Someone should make this post into a Mad Libs and plug in different countries Jaxyon posted:Here: When you post juuuust too slow.
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Oct 10, 2023 01:44
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Xander77 posted:I... mean what I wrote? What does it have to do with what I posted?
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Oct 10, 2023 01:48
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A big flaming stink posted:Hamas should be supported because they are The democratically elected leaders of the Palestinian people and also because they provide the greatest opposition against Israel's genocidal aims right now. This is borderline psychotic minimizing of actual war crimes and rape. Israel can be the oppressor without having to do things like describe rape and murdering 1,000 civilians as "each individual act of the struggle." Making Hamas synonymous with "the Palestinian people" is also exactly what Likud would love for the rest of the world to do. Especially wild since you have another post recently where you defend Russia kidnapping Ukrainian children to "de-Ukrainianize" them, which is one of the literal textbook definitions of genocide. quote:Like, one of the fundamental sources of conflict in this entire affair is that some users consider what they post a nuanced analysis of the situation and other posters consider that to be just asking questions in support of extremism. Is questioning if the removal of Ukrainian children to Russia denying heinous crimes by Russia's government? Or is it trying to analyze if such actions would be in the best interests of those children to be evacuated from a war zone? Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 01:49
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Upgrade posted:Do you support Joe Biden, the democratically elected leader of the United States? What a nonsensical post. Someone should make this post into a Mad Libs and plug in different countries I'm willing to take a stand and say that if Israel invaded the United States and forced Americans into slowly shrinking ghettos and Joe Biden was the democratically elected leader of the American government which was fighting back against Israeli occupation, I would support Joe Biden in his struggle for freedom for all Americans, regardless of other policy differences I have with the man.
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Oct 10, 2023 01:50
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Rigged Death Trap posted:How convenient that this only benefits the stronger of the groups. This isn't absolutely correct. This absolutely benefitted the IRA and the FARC in their peace agreements. Head members of both groups got away scot clean from many counts of murder, kidnapping, rape, child soldier recruiting, forced abortions and steralizations, countless terrorist attacks, and countless other disgusting crimes. The difference is those groups had power and leverage and knew how to obtain it. HAMAS doesn't know how to do jack poo poo and seems to have zero power of influence over Israel in the way that the IRA had the capabilities and leverage in England and Ireland and the FARC had leverage in Colombia. It probably mostly has to due with how small Israel is and the exact location of Gaza. Main Paineframe posted:If there's literally nothing they can do to stop the apartheid and genocide, are they obligated to do nothing but roll over and die? There's plenty of people who would prefer to struggle against their tormentor to the end, even if it's ultimately futile. They should do what they can to de-accelerate said apartheid and genocide. Not accelerate it. Simple as that.
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Oct 10, 2023 01:50
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Hamas are not 'providing opposition' to anyone's genocidal aims. Rather, by revelling in cruelty against civilians they have handed Israel's government the perfect justification to wipe out Gaza. How exactly is Hamas going to stop the IDF from levelling every building in the strip or starving the entire population with its blockade?
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Oct 10, 2023 01:52
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:This is borderline psychotic minimizing of actual war crimes and rape. Israel can be the oppressor without having to do things like describe rape and murdering 1,000 civilians as "each individual act of the struggle." Making Hamas synonymous with "the Palestinian people" is also exactly what Likud would love for the rest of the world to do. Man gently caress off with this nonsense. I literally said you do not support each individual act. If you claim to support the oppressed in this scenario how exactly do you support them stopping being oppressed? The people with the most direct hand in liberating the Palestinians is Hamas right now. If you support the liberation of the oppressed you will end up supporting a side that commits horrific acts because that's how liberation goes about. Would you refuse to support the haiti slave revolt because of the horrific acts they committed? Like seriously how exactly can you support Palestinians if you refuse to support the people with the single greatest direct hand in opposing their oppressors??? I suppose you just sort of support their liberation in the abstract? Upgrade posted:I can’t believe you don’t support Joe Biden, the democratically elected President of the United States. Sure, he and the US do a lot of bad things - but we don’t have to support each individual act! Dude are you going to make me quote the dril tweet about good and bad things at you A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 01:54
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Saladman posted:No one is going to let Gazans literally die of starvation or thirst Yeah not so sure about this one
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Oct 10, 2023 01:55
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nogoodpeople posted:They should do what they can to de-accelerate said apartheid and genocide. Not accelerate it. Simple as that. But they've tried periods of non-aggression and it's only lead to settlers being free to take more land. It's very easy to say it's a choice between engaging in violence and being quickly genocided for it, and some second option which very likely doesn't exist of reaching the right combination of peaceful protest and appealing to Israeli empathy to stop them from being slowly genocided. Just to bring it back to the earlier example of the provisional IRA. Their campaign started because the British had made peaceful means of change impossible due to massacring peaceful protesters. And the campaign of violence only came to an end when the bombing campaign extended to the British mainland which made negotiations preferable to continued fighting of the insurgency. Marenghi fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 01:56
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A big flaming stink posted:Man gently caress off with this nonsense. I literally said you do not support each individual act. If you claim to support the oppressed in this scenario how exactly do you support them stopping being oppressed? The people with the most direct hand in liberating the Palestinians is Hamas right now. If you support the liberation of the oppressed you will end up supporting a side that commits horrific acts because that's how liberation goes about. Would you refuse to support the haiti slave revolt because of the horrific acts they committed? I can’t believe you don’t support Joe Biden, the democratically elected President of the United States. Sure, he and the US do a lot of bad things - but we don’t have to support each individual act! Your political theory is “you can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.” (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 01:56
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A big flaming stink posted:Man gently caress off with this nonsense. I literally said you do not support each individual act. If you claim to support the oppressed in this scenario how exactly do you support them stopping being oppressed? The people with the most direct hand in liberating the Palestinians is Hamas right now. If you support the liberation of the oppressed you will end up supporting a side that commits horrific acts because that's how liberation goes about. Would you refuse to support the haiti slave revolt because of the horrific acts they committed? He doesn’t, he just has a weird rape fantasy he wants to repeat on every page. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 01:57
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Hamas are not 'providing opposition' to anyone's genocidal aims. Rather, by revelling in cruelty against civilians they have handed Israel's government the perfect justification to wipe out Gaza. How exactly is Hamas going to stop the IDF from levelling every building in the strip or starving the entire population with its blockade? The objective is not to forcibly prevent the genocide, but rather to make the genocide more trouble than it's worth. edit: This is assuming a very charitable interpretation of Hamas' intent, I'm just replying to OP's specific question. Aramis fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 01:59
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Aramis posted:The objective is not to forcibly prevent the genocide, but rather to make the genocide more trouble than it's worth.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:06
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Xander77 posted:https://www.camera.org/article/deutsche-welle-corrects-hamas-doesnt-accept-two-states/ Jaxyon posted a primary source containing the full text of the actual document, all 42 points of it in their entirety. You responded by posting an article from an openly pro-Israel propaganda organization which quotes just three sentences from that document, each one taken out of context and deliberately misrepresented to present them as worse than they actually are. Meanwhile, it carefully avoids any mention of the part of the document that explicitly expresses Hamas' willingness (though reluctant, to be sure) to accept an independent Palestine with the 1967 borders.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:06
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Upgrade posted:I can’t believe you don’t support Joe Biden, the democratically elected President of the United States. Sure, he and the US do a lot of bad things - but we don’t have to support each individual act! Not to speak for them, but it's possible that they do not support the US government's goals in general. In which case not supporting Joe Biden is completely internally consistent.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:06
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Marenghi posted:But they've tried periods of non-aggression and it's only lead to settlers being free to take more land. I never said they had to be non-agressive. I said they had to find a way to prevent genocide and apartheid. So far they have failed to do so. They don't know what to do. They're entire existence is ideological. They don't have a actual solution to the situation that actually leads to the liberation of the Palestinian people because they are lead by ideology instead of solution based thinking. They are destined to fail and have only failed to actually achieve any sort of improvement of the conditions for the Palestinian people.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:10
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A big flaming stink posted:Man gently caress off with this nonsense. I literally said you do not support each individual act. If you claim to support the oppressed in this scenario how exactly do you support them stopping being oppressed? The people with the most direct hand in liberating the Palestinians is Hamas right now. If you support the liberation of the oppressed you will end up supporting a side that commits horrific acts because that's how liberation goes about. Would you refuse to support the haiti slave revolt because of the horrific acts they committed? Do you think it was the morally correct and only valid decision for Lithuanians and other Eastern European groups to side with the Nazis after the USSR invaded and occupied their country since the Nazis were providing the most direct opposition? You keep describing Hamas and the Palestinian people as synonymous and their actions as being the will of the Palestinian people, when that is the exact thing that Likud and right-wing Israelis would love for everyone else to do because it directly results in the hampering of the goal of Palestinian independence. Bibi literally agrees with you: quote:"Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” the prime minister reportedly said at a 2019 meeting of his Likud party. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 02:11
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 02:11
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Main Paineframe posted:Jaxyon posted a primary source containing the full text of the actual document, all 42 points of it in their entirety. the document has: quote:There is no alternative to a fully sovereign Palestinian State on the entire national Palestinian soil, with Jerusalem as its capital.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:11
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Upgrade posted:When you post juuuust too slow. That person hadn't posted when Xander wrote that response. nogoodpeople posted:I never said they had to be non-agressive. I said they had to find a way to prevent genocide and apartheid. There are many solutions that can be offered, many that are substantial and non ideological. Palestinians are not a monolith, this is, at best, a very prejudiced post. The issue is that Israel holds all the power in the situation and doesn't want peace, so Palestinians are unable to effect it.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:13
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Jaxyon posted:That person hadn't posted when Xander wrote that response. Yea - you were probably both writing your posts at the same time.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:14
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nogoodpeople posted:I never said they had to be non-agressive. I said they had to find a way to prevent genocide and apartheid. You should study up on your history, man, I'm pretty sure getting Israel to remove the settlements from Gaza counts as "achiev[ing] any sort of improvement of the conditions for the Palestinian people" I'm surprised you didn't know that, considering that you're so passionate about the subject you registered an account today just to talk about it.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:17
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Wowzers, a "Hamas wants to slaughter everyone immediately and can't be trusted to keep their word" derail, haven't seen that in a very long time. And referring back to that very long time, here's something worth chewing on:  Pop quiz for the class: at what point on this chart does Hamas sign a ceasefire, and at what point does Israel break it to launch a brutally vicious operation that utilized white phosphorous? That bombed the police station that was the base of operations for cracking down on splinter factions' rocket attacks? And this wasn't a freak moment, either:  The graphic is courtesy of Visualizing Palestine, but they provide a spreadsheet which lists the sources for their data points: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MJb3QIqfRjXAhEXQfpl0HM-3arN1pI_xn6PscNhG52c/edit#gid=1081979402 Contrary to inflamed rhetoric, Hamas is actually much, much, much more likely to keep their word than Israel. They're significantly less likely to break a ceasefire first. This doesn't seem to collaborate the idea that the group as a whole is chomping at the bit to lie about their intent. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 02:20
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You probably also need to brush up on your history as well because Israel dismantled the Gaza settlements and forcibly relocated the settlers in 2005. The current Israeli settlements are in the West Bank.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:21
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 02:22
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