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Gripweed posted:You should study up on your history, man, I'm pretty sure getting Israel to remove the settlements from Gaza counts as "achiev[ing] any sort of improvement of the conditions for the Palestinian people" You really think the outcome of what they have done won't be much worse for the Palestinian people then the settlements in the West Bank? Very short term thinking here. Main Paineframe posted:The victims of apartheid and genocide do not have a responsibility to cooperate with the apartheid and genocide in hopes that the party committing the apartheid and genocide will decide to genocide them slower. Once again, I said they should work on deaccelerating apartheid and genocide. There are ways to do so without cooperating in it. You continue to seek reasons to accelerate genocide and apartheid through the continuance of the circle of violence. You are incapable of thinking outside your own internal narrative and buy-in to this conflict. Emotions and feelings won't save the Palestinian people and being right about apartheid and genocide won't either if Israel decides to kill every single one of them in the next few months. nogoodpeople fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 02:23
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nogoodpeople posted:They should do what they can to de-accelerate said apartheid and genocide. Not accelerate it. Simple as that. The victims of apartheid and genocide do not have a responsibility to cooperate with the apartheid and genocide in hopes that the party committing the apartheid and genocide will decide to genocide them slower. Celexi posted:the document has: Yes. It also has this: quote:However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus. Which is politician-speak for "yeah, I know we just spouted a bunch of idealistic poo poo about Palestine from the river to the sea, but we're well aware that we can't realistically hope for more than an independent Palestine on 1967 lines so we'll settle for that in the end, but we're not going to give up our right to call the stolen land stolen". Though hyperfocusing on one generic political document like this is also a way to distract from the numerous times that Hamas leaders offered to settle for a peace deal along the 1967 borders.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:23
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is there a thread on this, without wall-to-wall grey noise slap fights from people who are more internet researchers than experts, and with information from people who know what they are talking about, or did a consistent and name-checkable supply of that on something awful dry up with twitter's destruction i mean i should be girded for this sort of thing after twenty years, it's predictable by now, but imo this thread currently exhibits some of this subforums' worst tendencies on a scale that i dont think has existed since the 00s
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Oct 10, 2023 02:25
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A ten year truce has been a recurring offer from Hamas; return to 1967 borders, ten-year ceasefire. Realistically it's a full peace plan; after ten years of peace neither side is going to be eager to go to war. It doesn't go anywhere, because the side that repeatedly breaks ceasefires isn't interested in it. On the subject of "are they lying and just want to kill us all?" https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1711471753497567372 Israel lied about where to shelter during a bombing run.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:30
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Celexi posted:the document has: It also has quote:Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus. Because it's a document written for Israel but needs to placate internal hardliners who will only accept complete liberation. In summary they're trying to say they would accept the 1967 borders but would not recognize Israel as a state, viewing it as occupied Palestine. Edit: This interpretation was also generally how it was interpreted when released. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders It stepped back on previous rhetoric, also removing more racial language and instead drawing a line between Zionists and Jews. And like all things, they're not a hive mind. Every political org speaks in a way that is attempting to placate different groups from different directions. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 02:30
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nogoodpeople posted:Once again, I said they should work on deaccelerating apartheid and genocide. There are ways to do so without cooperating in it. What ways do you have in mind, specifically?
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Oct 10, 2023 02:32
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Gumball Gumption posted:In summary they're trying to say they would accept the 1967 borders but would not recognize Israel as a state, viewing it as occupied Palestine. how is that going to solve anything?
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Oct 10, 2023 02:32
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 02:32
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nogoodpeople posted:
There is only one party that has the power to "de-accelerate" apartheid, and that is the apartheid state. And what do you mean by "de-accelerate" anyway? In strictly literal terms it would been that apartheid and genocide is still occurring, just not at an increasing rate.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:32
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nogoodpeople posted:You really think the outcome of what they have done won't be much worse for the Palestinian people then the settlements in the West Bank? Very short term thinking here. 1) cutting off the water supply to 2 million civilians is a war crime 2) Israel, as the occupying state under the Geneva Convention, is not supposed to be able to strike back against armed resistance of its occupation 3) "de-accelerate apartheid" lmao
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Oct 10, 2023 02:36
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Fister Roboto posted:There is only one party that has the power to "de-accelerate" apartheid, and that is the apartheid state. It's akin to asking US blacks to "de-accelerate" jim crow. I too would like more explanation of this concept.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:38
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Honestly I'm kind of curious how some of you conceptualize support for Palestine. If you oppose Hamas, who are the effective heads of the I'm not trying to ask a leading question, this is a sincere inquiry on my part.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:39
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Celexi posted:how is that going to solve anything? Beats me, you got any solutions? People have been real desperate for one so if you got it man you're gonna get famous.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:42
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sleep with the vicious posted:2) Israel, as the occupying state under the Geneva Convention, is not supposed to be able to strike back against armed resistance of its occupation Israel has violated several parts of the Geneva Convention, but the Geneva Convention doesn't state that an occupying state is not allowed to strike back against armed resistance.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:42
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Celexi posted:how is that going to solve anything? Gives negotiators some breathing room to hammer out a more substantial lasting peace.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:43
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nogoodpeople posted:But the question isn't "What is the appropriate response" Guy this is literally the question.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:46
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Majorian posted:What ways do you have in mind, specifically? What do you think the ANC and MK did in South Africa and why do you think it was so successful? Conflicts like these, where one party is at such a massive disadvantage are rarely and almost never won on the ground by the weaker force. There is 0 chance that Palestine will ever overpower Israel. There is an almost zero chance that HAMAS will ever achieve a Palestinian state they way they envision it through their current strategies. Violent of forceful resistance can win these kind of conflicts but not in a vacuum. If Palestine does not have the forces powerful enough to stop Israel either by themselves or with allies (they don't) then they can not win this conflict militaristically. Their only option is to win this conflict psychologically. In order to do that they have to create situations where they weaken the position of their enemy by attacking on many psychological fronts. They need to bring strong international pressure against the current Israeli government and in favor of Palestine. They need to push at internal pressure points and conflicts within Israel and Israeli politics to create weaknesses within the currently ruling Israeli parties. They need to make the Palestinian issue such a pain in the rear end and politically and financially costly to Israel to deal with that they instead seek another solution beyond genocide and apartheid. All I see Hamas has done so far is unite all of Israel and most of the strong international pressures against them. They have no chance in hell of actually achieving anything now. Given the level of internal conflict inside Israel over the Netanyahu's Legal Reforms, the current energy crisis and war raging between Ukraine and Russia, and the attempt at normalization of relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia there are a lot of pressure points that Palestine could have applied pressure to to achieve the formentioned goal. I don't think they have much bargaining room or power to do that now. Fister Roboto posted:There is only one party that has the power to "de-accelerate" apartheid, and that is the apartheid state. If you don't have the physical capability to stop Apartheid and Genocide (and Palestine loving does not, it's a really loving simple one on this front) the next best thing you can do is slow down the speed it occurs at. This is really basic conflict management and just...basic loving human logic. If BAD THING IS HAPPENING AND YOU CAN NOT STOP 100% OF IT TRY TO STOP 50% OF IT. See super loving simple. sleep with the vicious posted:1) cutting off the water supply to 2 million civilians is a war crime It is a war-crime they will commit with 100% support from the most important figures in the international scene and if they wanted to literally just murder every single Palestinian man, women, and child over the next few months they could and nobody will stop them. No one will even protest internationally. That is what HAMAS has handed them with this attack. The freedom to do whatever they want and accelerate it however they want. Simple as that. I do not see that as a winning strategy. nogoodpeople fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 02:49
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Celexi posted:how is that going to solve anything? It's paired with a long-term ceasefire. The idea being that you enjoy a Greece-Turkey situation; both countries dislike each other, and consider the other to have stolen their land, but you don't actually do anything about it. quote:What do you think the ANC and MK did in South Africa and why do you think it was so successful? Bombing restaraunts, cafes, and bars packed with Afrikaners, to send the message that Apartheid's walled garden will not protect them from reprisal, was a pretty big part. Incidentally: ‘No one to talk to’: Israelis feel abandoned by trusted army after terror assault Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 02:50
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Israel has violated several parts of the Geneva Convention, but the Geneva Convention doesn't state that an occupying state is not allowed to strike back against armed resistance. What does the Fourth Geneva Convention say? Civilians in areas of armed conflict and occupied territories are protected by the 159 articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Civilians are to be protected from murder, torture or brutality, and from discrimination on the basis of race, nationality, religion or political opinion. https://www.redcross.org/content/dam/redcross/atg/PDF_s/International_Services/International_Humanitarian_Law/IHL_SummaryGenevaConv.pdf
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Oct 10, 2023 02:53
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 02:55
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sleep with the vicious posted:You are so unimaginably stupid and need to shut the gently caress up when you don't know what you are talking about, especially in facts not opinions. I think you need to take that first sentence to heart. Re-read that again and try to find where it says that "an occupying state is not allowed to strike back against armed resistance." "Civilians are to be protected from murder" does not mean "an occupying state is not allowed to strike back against armed resistance." The entire section literally spells out that it only applies to civilians and diplomats and does not apply during certain military operations. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 02:56
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nogoodpeople posted:What do you think the ANC and MK did in South Africa and why do you think it was so successful? The ANC conducted a long, brutal terrorist campaign against apartheid South Africa - indeed, Mandela was on the U.S. terrorism watch list until 2008. quote:Their only option is to win this conflict psychologically. In order to do that they have to create situations where they weaken the position of their enemy by attacking on many psychological fronts. They need to bring strong international pressure against the current Israeli government and in favor of Palestine. They need to push at internal pressure points and conflicts within Israel and Israeli politics to create weaknesses within the currently ruling Israeli parties. They need to make the Palestinian issue such a pain in the rear end and politically and financially costly to Israel to deal with that they instead seek another solution beyond genocide and apartheid. What pressure points and conflicts are there for Palestine to exploit? What leverage do they have to push on those pressure points?
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Oct 10, 2023 02:58
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A big flaming stink posted:Honestly I'm kind of curious how some of you conceptualize support for Palestine. If you oppose Hamas, who are the effective heads of the You literally posted earlier that we should approve and support Hamas’ actions in general because the ends justify the means and they are the democratically elected leadership of Gaza. Don’t play coy now. I’d love to hear your reasoned defense of, say, the firebombing of Dresden (stopping Hitler, you know!). I’d also like to hear why it’s a good thing to not distinguish between Hamas and Palestinian civilians.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:58
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Recoome posted:Honestly not pressing it but it’s bad enough that she’s not going back on campus for the foreseeable future and not wearing her Star of David. Ah! Well. Nevertheless, (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 02:59
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mannerup posted:to bring some news to the thread, Netanyahu has finally posted his conditions for a unity government which are... no conditions Good job Biden. Now we’re killers. And uhh, yay for circumcising babies. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 03:00
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mannerup posted:answer is no, there isn't and won't be. any thread you have on Israel/Palestine is not going to have dispassionate analysis by regional experts and aggregate commentary-free news with up to date reporting on the ground. social media is a propaganda hellhole right now and this thread is going to reflect that unfortunately i mean of course not but this isnt a binary i also think active moderation in the direction of making it less of a hog wallow would help a great deal, but maybe thats v hard, or maybe thats counter to the goal of having a hog wallow
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Oct 10, 2023 03:01
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nogoodpeople posted:It is a war-crime they will commit with 100% support from the most important figures in the international scene and if they wanted to literally just murder every single Palestinian man, women, and child over the next few months they could and nobody will stop them. No one will even protest internationally. That is what HAMAS has handed them with this attack. The freedom to do whatever they want and accelerate it however they want. Simple as that. I do not see that as a winning strategy. I cannot stress enough that they could do this at any point in the past several decades. Public support outside of Israel means literally nothing; no US president will allow a UN resolution to pass. No US candidate for presidency that is interested in being hard on Israel will be allowed to reach that point. No country can nonviolently compel Israel to return to 1967 borders. The only reason for the change in rhetoric is because a ceasefire right now would be a victory for Hamas. If that were not the case, we would still be supporting Israel's desire to ethnically cleanse Gaza. We'd just be saying "we support a two state solution, Israel has a right to defend itself" in every interview instead of "we want to watch as the life leaves their eyes. C'th N'gh F'gah". They have bombed Gaza with extreme intensity before. They have invaded Gaza before. They have turned off utilities before. They have bombed every vital piece of infrastructure before. Nothing in Gaza is sacred to Israel.
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Oct 10, 2023 03:02
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Upgrade posted:Question: what do you think is an appropriate consequence for the people in this video espousing horrible views? Or for the videos upthread? Death? What kind of question even is this?! I generally believe in free speech but given this is just a sample of what everyday Israelis believe I don't think we can categorize Israelis as anything other than the oppressor in this conflict. I believe their side should change their mind and concede rights to the peoples they have wronged and there should be a secular, multi ethnic state, that guarantees the rights of minorities and allows all these people to share in the lands equally. But even saying that is framed by defenders of Israel as "antisemitic" and will wreck your political career in the United States and the rest of the imperial core.
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Oct 10, 2023 03:03
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Upgrade posted:You literally posted earlier that we should approve and support Hamas’ actions in general because the ends justify the means and they are the democratically elected leadership of Gaza. Don’t play coy now. I’d love to hear your reasoned defense of, say, the firebombing of Dresden (stopping Hitler, you know!). I'm sure you don't mean this, but it really seems like you're suggesting that the firebombing of Dresden means that you wouldn't have supported the Allies in WW2.
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Oct 10, 2023 03:05
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Neurolimal posted:Bombing restaraunts, cafes, and bars packed with Afrikaners, to send the message that Apartheid's walled garden will not protect them from reprisal, was a pretty big part. Incidentally: Majorian posted:The ANC conducted a long, brutal terrorist campaign against apartheid South Africa - indeed, Mandela was on the U.S. terrorism watch list until 2008. I don't think you understand what I am saying. You seem to think there's only one way to run a resistance campaign and it's all equal. There are many ways to run resistance campaigns, and they are not all equal. MK and the ANC knew how to do things a hell of a lot better than HAMAS and persistently sough to apply internal and external pressure on the South African Regime at practically every single point they could in order to win. gently caress the PLO as much, much better at this then HAMAS as well. There's a reason things have been trending backwards since HAMAS made it into power. And there's a reason a lot of folk in Israel themselves wanted HAMAS to win over the PLO; they know HAMAS are much less competent at actually achieving the goal set out here. Neurolimal posted:I cannot stress enough that they could do this at any point in the past several decades. Public support outside of Israel means literally nothing; no US president will allow a UN resolution to pass. No US candidate for presidency that is interested in being hard on Israel will be allowed to reach that point. No country can nonviolently compel Israel to return to 1967 borders. The only reason for the change in rhetoric is because a ceasefire right now would be a victory for Hamas. If that were not the case, we would still be supporting Israel's desire to ethnically cleanse Gaza. We'd just be saying "we support a two state solution, Israel has a right to defend itself" in every interview instead of "we want to watch as the life leaves their eyes. C'th N'gh F'gah". You are extremely wrong. The international blowback against Israel from the international community for the wanton murder of 2m+ people would have been quite large in places like Europe. There would actually need to be a triggering reason for the Europeans to ignore this. The combination of everything going on elsewhere and the attack by HAMAS makes it much easier for them to achieve this with very little blowback. Once again. I don't think most of you know how the loving world works and think Israel is very popular amongst European countries and leadership. They're loving historically not. nogoodpeople fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 03:05
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Neurolimal posted:I cannot stress enough that they could do this at any point in the past several decades. Public support outside of Israel means literally nothing; no US president will allow a UN resolution to pass. No US candidate for presidency that is interested in being hard on Israel will be allowed to reach that point. No country can nonviolently compel Israel to return to 1967 borders. The only reason for the change in rhetoric is because a ceasefire right now would be a victory for Hamas. If that were not the case, we would still be supporting Israel's desire to ethnically cleanse Gaza. We'd just be saying "we support a two state solution, Israel has a right to defend itself" in every interview instead of "we want to watch as the life leaves their eyes. C'th N'gh F'gah". How does this square with the idea that Israel's primary goal is to kill everyone in Gaza if you are saying they could have done it at any time in the last 50 years with no consequence, but haven't yet done so? I don't even disagree with most of your conclusion, but those are contradictory things that can't both be true at the same time.
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Oct 10, 2023 03:07
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 03:07
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nogoodpeople posted:I don't think you understand what I am saying. You seem to think there's only one way to run a resistance campaign and it's all equal. I don't, actually. I am fully aware that there are multiple ways of running a resistance campaign and do not believe that all of those ways are "equal" (either morally or practically). I am, however, asking what alternatives Hamas and the Palestinian people have at this point other than violence. quote:There are many ways to run resistance campaigns, and they are not all equal. MK and the ANC knew how to do things a hell of a lot better than HAMAS and persistently sough to apply internal and external pressure on the South African Regime at practically every single point they could in order to win. Would you please be specific and tell me what some of those things were, as well as how those lessons may be applied to the case of Palestine?
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Oct 10, 2023 03:08
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very cool for Rubio, who has largely disappeared from my view for the past 7+ years, to come roaring back into my consciousness with such an awful take
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Oct 10, 2023 03:08
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Gripweed posted:I'm sure you don't mean this, but it really seems like you're suggesting that the firebombing of Dresden means that you wouldn't have supported the Allies in WW2. People can approve AND disapprove of things at the same time. And “the ends justify the means” is an abhorrent justification.
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Oct 10, 2023 03:11
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Upgrade posted:People can approve AND disapprove of things at the same time. And “the ends justify the means” is an abhorrent justification. Ok but just to be clear, even despite the firebombing of Dresden, you still would support the Allies in World War 2?
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Oct 10, 2023 03:15
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Neurolimal posted:A ten year truce has been a recurring offer from Hamas; return to 1967 borders, ten-year ceasefire. Realistically it's a full peace plan; after ten years of peace neither side is going to be eager to go to war. It doesn't go anywhere, because the side that repeatedly breaks ceasefires isn't interested in it. Racing russia to the bottom of the barrel.
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Oct 10, 2023 03:16
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Celexi posted:how is that going to solve anything? That's more than enough for it to join the lineup of conflicts that have simmered down and are probably never really going to come back to a boil ever again. One example is Korea. The Korean War ended in an armistice and no full peace deal was ever hammered out. Officially, both North and South Korea still regard themselves as the true Korean state and their opposite number as illegitimate. But realistically speaking, they've maintained a tense but largely peaceful status quo and have long abandoned any real intention to invade the other side and restart the war. Even though they're officially opposed to a divided Korea, they've accepted the status quo and aren't inclined to kick off an all-out war to upset it. Ireland, too. I'm admittedly less familiar with the Irish situation, so I might be a bit off. But it's my understanding that the Republic of Ireland officially still desires a united Ireland, but has agreed to recognize Northern Ireland's right to self-determination in exchange for the British government also recognizing that right, along with a number of mutual de-escalation measures like freeing prisoners and disarming militias. sleep with the vicious posted:What does the Fourth Geneva Convention say? Under the Geneva Conventions, people engaging in armed resistance are not civilians while engaging in that armed resistance. They're either soldiers or illegal combatants. The Fourth Geneva Convention does, however, explicitly bar collective punishment of civilians as reprisals for the actions of armed combatants, as well as giving the occupying power the responsibility to maintain a certain standard of living in occupied territory. Israel's allowed to blow up armed Hamas fighters in retaliation for Hamas attacks, but they're not allowed to level apartment buildings or blow up ambulances.
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Oct 10, 2023 03:19
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I'm seeing a lot of comparisons with the ANC and MK but I'm hoping goons aren't implying that those acts were the only thing that brought down the Apartheid government when boycotts and such from outside countries were having a much bigger impact. As for internal violence the ANC and IFP were in there on bloody struggle in the 80s (with the government giving weapons and aiding the flames until the whole situation became a giant clusterfuck) and the whole thing just lead to a culmination of events that made apartheid unsustainable. The ANC were marching house to house and killing everyone inside regardless of affiliation, nor were they saying white people don't have a right to exist in South Africa. Anyway this is all a giant side track to what is going on right now and has nothing to do with what is going on in Israel besides some broad comparison.
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Oct 10, 2023 03:19
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nogoodpeople posted:If you don't have the physical capability to stop Apartheid and Genocide (and Palestine loving does not, it's a really loving simple one on this front) the next best thing you can do is slow down the speed it occurs at. This is really basic conflict management and just...basic loving human logic. How are they supposed to stop 50% of apartheid? I already told you that the only group that has any power to stop apartheid is the state of Israel. And to echo Jaxyon, Jaxyon posted:It's akin to asking US blacks to "de-accelerate" jim crow.
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Oct 10, 2023 03:20
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