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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 03:21
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mannerup posted:BDS would be the equivalent of those apartheid movements BDS is in no way as big as the south African embargoes, the later was magnitudes more crippling than the earlier.
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Oct 10, 2023 03:22
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Gumball Gumption posted:Beats me, you got any solutions? People have been real desperate for one so if you got it man you're gonna get famous. There are two possible solutions, but only Israel has the power to implement either. 1. The most just approach, which is for Israel to grant full citizenship to all people within Israel's sovereign borders and drop the pretense of enforcing a state along ethnic or religious lines. 2. The compromise approach of Israel completely pulling back to 1967 borders and granting Palestinians full sovereignty of the remaining territory. Unfortunately the Israeli political climate means either option is a non-starter. So now what?
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Oct 10, 2023 03:28
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Gripweed posted:Ok but just to be clear, even despite the firebombing of Dresden, you still would support the Allies in World War 2? Seems reasonable enough! "The ends don't justify the means" is a really easy thing to say, and while it's true to say that, it seems to be interpreted by some people, as a matter of convenience typically, to mean "the ends can be rendered unjustifiable by the means" which is of course utter nonsense. Oddly, Israel was very big on the capture and legitimate trial of war criminals back in the day, rather than just assassinating Nazis in the dead of night or blowing up their houses. That was the right thing to do to. Track down the people who murdered 250 civilians for no good reason, try them in a court of law with adequate defense provided, prove your case, and then punish them. Don't commit a loving war crime to avenge them!
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Oct 10, 2023 03:29
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Majorian posted:Would you please be specific and tell me what some of those things were, as well as how those lessons may be applied to the case of Palestine? You could start by not indiscriminately killing a bunch of civilians and parading their dead bodies through the streets including people from foreign countries; especialy European and Asian ones that have nothing to do with any of this. It looks super loving bad and makes people think you're just as bad or worse than the Israelis.
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Oct 10, 2023 03:30
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nogoodpeople posted:You could start by not indiscriminately killing a bunch of civilians and parading their dead bodies through the streets including people from foreign countries; especialy European and Asian ones that have nothing to do with any of this. It looks super loving bad and makes people think you're just as bad or worse than the Israelis. I'm asking for specific examples of things they should do, though, not things that they shouldn't do.
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Oct 10, 2023 03:32
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 03:36
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Majorian posted:I'm asking for specific examples of things they should do, though, not things that they shouldn't do. I laid it out in a earlier post where I explained they should apply pressure on Israel by seeking international cooperation to apply boycotts and assorted other forms of pressure internationally as well as locally within Israel using internal fighting to their advantage. This is basically the blueprint of what the ANC and MK did in South Africa. But to do that they'd actually have to be politically savvy and good at diplomacy and be willing to actually talk to diplomats from countries outside of the Arab-sphere and it really doesn't seem like HAMAS cares about doing that because they are ideologically guided. Like I have said. Fister Roboto posted:How are they supposed to stop 50% of apartheid? I already told you that the only group that has any power to stop apartheid is the state of Israel. And to echo Jaxyon, It's akin to asking US blacks to "de-accelerate" jim crow. Do you think Jim Crow and Civil Rights weren't stopped and rolled back by protesting, diplomacy and politics, using internal party politics and weaknesses to apply pressure to the opposition , playing the media, and international pressure? MLK was an expert at all of these thing.
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Oct 10, 2023 03:42
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nogoodpeople posted:I laid it out in a earlier post where I explained they should apply pressure on Israel by seeking international cooperation to apply boycotts and assorted other forms of pressure internationally as well as locally within Israel using internal fighting to their advantage. There are anti-BDS laws in 35 of the 50 U.S. states. Simply saying, "The ANC did it; Hamas should have done it too" ignores the fact that the context of this war is very different from the one that existed during the boycotts of apartheid South Africa.
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Oct 10, 2023 03:46
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nogoodpeople posted:Do you think Jim Crow and Civil Rights weren't stopped and rolled back by protesting, diplomacy and politics, using internal party politics and weaknesses to apply pressure to the opposition , playing the media, and international pressure? MLK was an expert at all of these thing. Palestine had tried all of these things, but specifically the highlighted.....are you familiar with what happened to the Great March of Return, a peaceful protest in 2018? I recall about 30,000 people were injured, far worse than any Jim Crow incident.
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Oct 10, 2023 03:46
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nogoodpeople posted:I laid it out in a earlier post where I explained they should apply pressure on Israel by seeking international cooperation to apply boycotts and assorted other forms of pressure internationally as well as locally within Israel using internal fighting to their advantage. It's a common anti-BDS argument that Hamas is tied to them. They're doing what you ask and called terrorist for doing it.
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Oct 10, 2023 03:53
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nogoodpeople posted:Do you think Jim Crow and Civil Rights weren't stopped and rolled back by protesting, diplomacy and politics, using internal party politics and weaknesses to apply pressure to the opposition , playing the media, and international pressure? MLK was an expert at all of these thing. A few years ago, IDF snipers responded to unarmed Palestinians protesting at the border fence by playing a game to see which one could set the highest record of exploded knee caps: Haaretz posted:'42 Knees in One Day': Israeli Snipers Open Up About Shooting Gaza Protesters The style of protesting you're suggesting has been tried, and it's not as effective as you thinking it might be when the media and western governments don't really give a poo poo about how many Palestinians get murdered or maimed. As was pointed out above, BDS is also illegal in 70% of the United States. In most states, you can't be a public school teacher if you support the BDS movement. B B fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 03:54
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 03:57
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Majorian posted:There are anti-BDS laws in 35 of the 50 U.S. states. Simply saying, "The ANC did it; Hamas should have done it too" ignores the fact that the context of this war is very different from the one that existed during the boycotts of apartheid South Africa. Why the gently caress do you think there are anti-BDS laws in 35 states? HAMAS is very, very bad at public relations and politics. They have a very bad public image. This is really on their shoulders. Good PR teams have rehabilitated and broadened the images of literally all the dictatorship leaders of the Arab Peninsula recently. They hosted the 2020 World Cup in Qatar and they will also be hosting the 2034 World Cup in Saudi Arabia; despite both being apartheid slave states that kill dissidents; all of the back of PR. You know how big both UAE and Qatar are with influencers? How Saudi Arabia has purchased many of the worlds top soccer players and they will all go play there despite being places where homosexuality and sex outside of marriage is illegal? It's all in PR and money and playing the west for the suckers they are. You think they couldn't do it for a Palestinian leader? HAMAS doesn't care because they don't understand how to play international politics or win "The Obama of Palestine" The loving media would eat it up. It doesn't happen because HAMAS are playing Checkers and don't know how the real world works. You must manipulate the media, create a false narrative and self image, spread it across the world to get people and politicians to buy into you. Everyone would be chomping at the bits for some mid 30s handsome Palestinian Daddy with a stubbly beard and a Palestinian flag saying he wants peace. Because that's how the world works now ok? To quote TDKR "He's a war Hero...this is peacetime." nogoodpeople fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 03:57
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nogoodpeople posted:Why the gently caress do you think there are anti-BDS laws in 35 states? Because the Likud Lobby is extremely powerful and wealthy, and has captured most politicians on both sides of the aisle. This has been the case for the better part of a century. It has little to do with Hamas. quote:Good PR teams have rehabilitated and broadened the images of literally all the dictatorship leaders of the Arab Peninsula recently. They hosted the 2020 World Cup in Qatar and they will also be hosting the 2034 World Cup in Saudi Arabia; despite both being apartheid slave states that kill dissidents; all of the back of PR. Sounds great, how do you propose the Palestinian people pay for these PR teams? Are there PR teams who would work to advance the Palestinian cause if it weren't for Hamas?
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Oct 10, 2023 04:01
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nogoodpeople posted:Why the gently caress do you think there are anti-BDS laws in 35 states? HAMAS is very, very bad at public relations and politics. They have a very bad public image. This is really on their shoulders. Hamas is not Palestine.
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Oct 10, 2023 04:01
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nogoodpeople posted:Why the gently caress do you think there are anti-BDS laws in 35 states? HAMAS is very, very bad at public relations and politics. They have a very bad public image. This is really on their shoulders. Ok hasbara this is beyond the pale, shut the actual gently caress up. are you for real quoting batman about an ongoing real genocide? Christ this poo poo is nauseating victim blaming horseshit. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 04:01
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nogoodpeople posted:Why the gently caress do you think there are anti-BDS laws in 35 states? HAMAS is very, very bad at public relations and politics. They have a very bad public image. This is really on their shoulders. I don't know if needing good PR to deserve self determination is a great standard. I guess a very realpolitik view though. Though I think what you're describing is a money problem really, Hamas does not have the money or resources Qatar, Saudi Arabi, and UAE all have to offer with the one hand while they perform pr with the other. Edit: holy poo poo my eyes slide right past Batman. Love goons.
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Oct 10, 2023 04:04
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Madkal posted:I'm seeing a lot of comparisons with the ANC and MK but I'm hoping goons aren't implying that those acts were the only thing that brought down the Apartheid government when boycotts and such from outside countries were having a much bigger impact. As for internal violence the ANC and IFP were in there on bloody struggle in the 80s (with the government giving weapons and aiding the flames until the whole situation became a giant clusterfuck) and the whole thing just lead to a culmination of events that made apartheid unsustainable. The ANC were marching house to house and killing everyone inside regardless of affiliation, nor were they saying white people don't have a right to exist in South Africa. Majorian posted:The ANC conducted a long, brutal terrorist campaign against apartheid South Africa - indeed, Mandela was on the U.S. terrorism watch list until 2008. I don't want to downplay anyone's death, but it's worth noting the death toll in Saturday's attack is nearing the total amount of white people killed in the anti-apartheid fight, and even that amount is pretty broadly viewed as counterproductive and having undercut the real successes which were pretty much all won via the nonviolent campaigns. The vast, vast majority of brutality in things like the poqo was reserved for other black factions. I don't know how much value that fact holds for Palestine, there's big differences between these situations, but the idea that apartheid was won via bombs is pretty much completely rejected.
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Oct 10, 2023 04:07
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"Why doesn't the open air prison that doesn't even have self-determination for drinking water and electricity just use the billions of dollars its non-existant oilfields generate to hire a good PR firm like the Saudis." fuckin lmao (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 04:10
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Celexi posted:BDS is in no way as big as the south African embargoes, the later was magnitudes more crippling than the earlier. congress actually passed a law sanctioning south africa in 1986 and conditioned ending it on Apartheid ending the anti-apartheid movement in the US was pretty successful in winning over public opinion in the 70s-80s
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Oct 10, 2023 04:12
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Dopilsya posted:I don't want to downplay anyone's death, but it's worth noting the death toll in Saturday's attack is nearing the total amount of white people killed in the anti-apartheid fight, and even that amount is pretty broadly viewed as counterproductive and having undercut the real successes which were pretty much all won via the nonviolent campaigns. The vast, vast majority of brutality in things like the poqo was reserved for other black factions. I don't know how much value that fact holds for Palestine, there's big differences between these situations, but the idea that apartheid was won via bombs is pretty much completely rejected. Palestine has tried all of the other options, and as said by others, they're really not options at this time. Israel has done a really good job of creating a situation where violence is extremely likely.
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Oct 10, 2023 04:12
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Jaxyon posted:Palestine has tried all of the other options, and as said by others, they're really not options at this time. Israel has done a really good job of creating a situation where violence is extremely likely. People on either side of 'armed struggle is the way to go' should probably not be citing what they think happened in SA then.
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Oct 10, 2023 04:17
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B B posted:As was pointed out above, BDS is also illegal in 70% of the United States. In most states, you can't be a public school teacher if you support the BDS movement. Good. All School Teachers in the US should quite their job and leave the country immediately. The decline of education is one of the many goals needed to see the death and destruction of America and its way of life. I only wish worse and worse things happen to that cursed country and its citizens. I curse America and its citizens. A big flaming stink posted:Ok hasbara this is beyond the pale, shut the actual gently caress up. are you for real quoting batman about an ongoing real genocide? Christ this poo poo is nauseating victim blaming horseshit. You're right. I should of quoted Metal Gear Solid.
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Oct 10, 2023 04:17
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Dopilsya posted:I don't want to downplay anyone's death, but it's worth noting the death toll in Saturday's attack is nearing the total amount of white people killed in the anti-apartheid fight, and even that amount is pretty broadly viewed as counterproductive and having undercut the real successes which were pretty much all won via the nonviolent campaigns. The vast, vast majority of brutality in things like the poqo was reserved for other black factions. I don't know how much value that fact holds for Palestine, there's big differences between these situations, but the idea that apartheid was won via bombs is pretty much completely rejected. I never claimed or suggested it was won entirely via bombs - just that the suggestion that they didn't use bombs is ahistorical. Nor do I think many people (if any) ITT are claiming that all of the killings of civilians in the present campaign are defensible or productive. They are a tragic reality of war - a war that the Palestinian people did not start, and which the Israeli government has the power to stop at any time. Majorian fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 04:17
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nogoodpeople posted:I laid it out in a earlier post where I explained they should apply pressure on Israel by seeking international cooperation to apply boycotts and assorted other forms of pressure internationally as well as locally within Israel using internal fighting to their advantage. Hamas does try to talk to diplomats from countries outside the Arab sphere. For the most part, those countries' diplomats don't return their calls, because most of the countries with real pull on the international stage either have an extremely negative view toward armed Islamist movements, are already close allies of Israel, or both. For example, Hamas as a whole (not just their armed wing, but the entire organization) has been designated as an illegal terrorist organization by the US since 1997, by the EU since 2001, by Germany since 2004, and by Britain since 2021. Not only does that designation comes with serious legal restrictions on associating with Hamas or supporting Hamas in any way, and generally tends to be paired with an official refusal to engage in diplomacy with them. nogoodpeople posted:Why the gently caress do you think there are anti-BDS laws in 35 states? HAMAS is very, very bad at public relations and politics. They have a very bad public image. This is really on their shoulders. If such tactics would work so easily for a Palestinian leader who renounces violence, then you'd think they'd have worked for Mahmoud Abbas and other Fatah leaders who long ago renounced violence and committed themselves to peaceful Hamas isn't remotely comparable to Saudi Arabia. First of all, Saudi Arabia is rich as hell, and possesses large stores of a resource that Western countries need large amounts of very badly. Second of all, Saudi Arabia is an independent country whose sovereignty is globally respected. Third of all, Saudi Arabia was (like Israel) set up with Western support as a friendly client state to protect colonial interests in the region, and has retained that Western support ever since. Fourth of all, while I'm not super up to date on current events on the Arabian peninsula, I'm fairly sure that Saudi Arabians aren't being genocided by anyone, let alone by a country that has the full support of the West.
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Oct 10, 2023 04:25
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Majorian posted:I never claimed or suggested it was won entirely via bombs - just that the suggestion that they didn't use bombs is ahistorical. Nor do I think many people (if any) ITT are claiming that all of the killings of civilians in the present campaign are defensible or productive. They are a tragic reality of war - a war that the Palestinian people did not start, and which the Israel government has the power to stop at any time. You described it as a "long and brutal" campaign and at least seemed to imply that it was a factor of some significance in the success of the anti-apartheid struggle. But it was comparatively bloodless (except towards other black factions as Madkal pointed out) and while I'm sure there has to be somebody out there that thinks it was valuable, pretty much everyone agrees that it was counterproductive. Like I said, I don't know how valuable that fact is for Palestine, the conditions in our country back then aren't the same as Palestine now, but I'm pointing out the fact that it wasn't a valuable part of the anti-apartheid struggle.
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Oct 10, 2023 04:27
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Pleads posted:"Why doesn't the open air prison that doesn't even have self-determination for drinking water and electricity just use the billions of dollars its non-existant oilfields generate to hire a good PR firm like the Saudis." They could at least ask Israel to de-accelerate their genocidal war crimes!
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Oct 10, 2023 04:28
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Majorian posted:I never claimed or suggested it was won entirely via bombs - just that the suggestion that they didn't use bombs is ahistorical. Nor do I think many people (if any) ITT are claiming that all of the killings of civilians in the present campaign are defensible or productive. They are a tragic reality of war - a war that the Palestinian people did not start, and which the Israeli government has the power to stop at any time. I think also a corrolary to this is that a militant wing doing indefensible, awful things also doesn't invalidate the larger movement/cause. It feels like there's a lot more time spent (not necc ITT, but broadly) litigating what Palestineans unaffiliated with Hamas should/shouldn't do, than spent on stopping an apartheid state ramping up a massive campaign of ethnic cleansing.
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Oct 10, 2023 04:30
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RIP ZEEZ
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I'm not incredibly familiar with the entire history of the Palestinian independence movement, but what could they do to that might take inspiration from the Indian independence movement? I know the Indian independence movement against British colonial rule was very long and violent, then there was the early 1900s movement that has been considered non-violent that finally, from my limited understanding, granted them independence. Can anything from that movement be applied to the current conflict?
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Oct 10, 2023 04:31
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ummel posted:I'm not incredibly familiar with the entire history of the Palestinian independence movement, but what could they do to that might take inspiration from the Indian independence movement? I know the Indian independence movement against British colonial rule was very long and violent, then there was the early 1900s movement that has been considered non-violent that finally, from my limited understanding, granted them independence. Can anything from that movement be applied to the current conflict? I don't think even Britain at the peak of her empire enjoyed the level of immunity from diplomatic/international legal accountability that Israel enjoys. It's not a helpful thing to say, but I don't see a lot of "good" outcomes for Israel here. Their electorate seems to be consistently rightward shifting and the rest of the world doesn't really care that much. I don't know what it would take to push them to the prolonged Apartheid-era South Africa-style unsustainable pariah status that would somehow create change.
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Oct 10, 2023 04:36
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nogoodpeople posted:Good PR teams have rehabilitated and broadened the images of literally all the dictatorship leaders of the Arab Peninsula recently. They hosted the 2020 World Cup in Qatar and they will also be hosting the 2034 World Cup in Saudi Arabia; despite both being apartheid slave states that kill dissidents; all of the back of PR. This is insanely naive. Those dictators aren't banned from anything because they're aligned with the West or are in some arrangement with the West. There is no rules-based international order that you can One Clever Trick. The clever trick is aligning to US interests, and those interests don't involve dealing with a territorial dispute; they've picked their horse, and it's not Palestine. They don't give a poo poo about PR, if they gave a poo poo about PR they wouldn't have backed Syngman Rhee, or Chiang Kai-Shek, or Pinochet, or Salman, or any number of horrible leaders. Palestine has abided by its ceasefires. It has pleaded for a ten-year truce. Half of it has disarmed itself. It has reformed its charters and talked to journalists. It has placed its injured on display for all to see the brutality inflicted upon it. We still didn't give a poo poo. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 04:40
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 04:41
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nogoodpeople posted:Why the gently caress do you think there are anti-BDS laws in 35 states? HAMAS is very, very bad at public relations and politics. They have a very bad public image. This is really on their shoulders. At one point is was a crime in some states, in the land of free speech, to be a slavery abolitionist. Later, it was a crime to oppose US entry in to WWI and conscription. That doesn't make slavery okay and doesn't mean that a resistance movement with hardly any assets, certainly no oil money, just need better PR. The BDS laws are the product of a lobby for Israel, that is composed of many people who aren't even Jewish, that has dominated Washington consensus group think. I'm not saying "jews own the media" or anything like that. Most people getting into politics don't know much about foreign policy. The Israel lobby and the Military Industrial Complex are eager to educate them.
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Oct 10, 2023 04:41
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ummel posted:I'm not incredibly familiar with the entire history of the Palestinian independence movement, but what could they do to that might take inspiration from the Indian independence movement? I know the Indian independence movement against British colonial rule was very long and violent, then there was the early 1900s movement that has been considered non-violent that finally, from my limited understanding, granted them independence. Can anything from that movement be applied to the current conflict? the British did not consider India an integral part of their homeland the way Israel does portions of the occupied territories, nor was India a settler colony the way Israeli settlement in the west bank are Eric Cantonese posted:I don't think even Britain at the peak of her empire enjoyed the level of immunity from diplomatic/international legal accountability that Israel enjoys. lol they literally invented concentration camps for interning the boers in south africa and nobody did poo poo Typo fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 04:42
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ummel posted:I'm not incredibly familiar with the entire history of the Palestinian independence movement, but what could they do to that might take inspiration from the Indian independence movement? I know the Indian independence movement against British colonial rule was very long and violent, then there was the early 1900s movement that has been considered non-violent that finally, from my limited understanding, granted them independence. Can anything from that movement be applied to the current conflict? the palestinian gandhi was shot through the kneecaps by snipers in the fence protests a few years ago
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Oct 10, 2023 04:53
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:There are two possible solutions, but only Israel has the power to implement either. Lebanon and Jordan already taught Isreal that option #1 isn't feasible even if they wanted to and you should really take that into consideration when you think of what's a possible solution. #2 doesn't really seem all that possible for Isreal either, how is that really different than the current situation only with different borders? Edit: Also with #1, why do you think that'd be different than 1920-1947 Mandate conflicts?
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Oct 10, 2023 04:59
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i should have just quoted normal finkelstein earlier: https://twitter.com/housetrotter/status/1711566935580684506 This is what Hamas represents: inmates of a concentration camp finally breaking down the walls.
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Oct 10, 2023 05:00
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 05:01
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nogoodpeople posted:Why the gently caress do you think there are anti-BDS laws in 35 states? HAMAS is very, very bad at public relations and politics. They have a very bad public image. This is really on their shoulders. The house and senate are occupied territories op (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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