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The Oldest Man posted:https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/20633/exclusive-heres-the-f-22-production-restart-study-the-usaf-has-kept-secret-for-over-a-year This is the same thing as they can't Feels like this touches on the general disconnect where people think because something is technically feasible from an engineering/manufacturing standpoint, that makes it possible. When in reality structural political issues can make things just as impossible as no longer having the technical knowledge or equipment. Thread favourite bar rad dun was in this boat last time I checked. The USA could technically rebuild its shipbuilding capacity the same way it could technically construct a healthcare system or a functional rail network. But in reality they can't, full stop. Slavvy has issued a correction as of 20:27 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 20:24
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PawParole posted:the shah was overthrown before Reagan was in office Oh yeah I mixed up the awful GOP presidents. Also Iran Contra.
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Oct 9, 2023 20:27
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Slavvy posted:This is the same thing as they can't Banned for can't/won't reductivism e: won't is much funnier than can't
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Oct 9, 2023 20:52
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The Oldest Man posted:e: won't is much funnier than can't This is true.
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Oct 9, 2023 21:23
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Slavvy posted:This is the same thing as they can't This drives me crazy since I did some research on retooling Canadian industry during WW2 and Canadian wartime production of guns and associated systems. It's very, very hard to explain to the average person how far we've fallen, even in the military. I imagine it's just about impossible to explain to a civilian that pipe and boilermakers were retooled to make hundreds of guns and carriages, but we can't do that anymore because we don't even have the civilian industries anymore. There are no Canadian railroad workshops to convert from making locomotives to Leopard 2s, no manufacturer of boilers, grain elevating and conveying machinery, hydraulic turbines, tugs, and reciprocating and centrifugal pumps to make 60% of GPMGs in service worldwide, plus the machinery for 4 destroyers and hundreds of light antiaircraft guns. You see what I mean? That's not even getting into the state's will or ability to harness industry (lol), the state abolished tariffs and let the industry dissolve. Okay, take that a step further. What about pure military industry? Do you really imagine the state able to purchase land, get started on a factory in 2 months, have it built and productive in 8, and produce 1 million rifles in a few years? To oversee the creation of a specialized industry where 126,000 men and women are employed? That can build 4,047 naval vessels, including over 300 anti-submarine warships, 4 destroyers, and 410 cargo ships? It doesn't matter if we could do this stuff in theory, nobody can even imagine doing it, let alone bring themselves to try.
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Oct 9, 2023 21:36
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Yeah, basically they could theoretically do it, but it would costs billions in new costs and take years, and eventually produce a fighter that probably is going to be not nearly worth the price. The US theoretically has resources in terms of USD, but also tremendous liabilities and would need to convert a ton of potential spending to restart parts of its MIC that have basically have been dismantled. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 01:04 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 23:56
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the "we can build high speed rail just as fast as china if we went serious, ackstually" argument
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Oct 10, 2023 00:48
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i could build high speed rail whenever I want, super easy. I just don't want to is all.
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Oct 10, 2023 00:54
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America doesn't build HSR in America to prove that it could not build other things, if it wanted to
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Oct 10, 2023 01:03
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Ardennes posted:Yeah, basically they could theoretically do it, but it would costs billions in new costs and take years, and eventually produce a fighter that probably is going to be not nearly worth the costs. in other words cant do it
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Oct 10, 2023 01:04
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Centrist Committee posted:in other words cant do it It is bad enough it is probably a waste to try it versus just building a new fighter.
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Oct 10, 2023 01:06
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Ardennes posted:It is bad enough it is probably a waste to try it versus just building a new fighter. what if we just let the PLA in and kill them through biohazard housing, toliets and food in US bases
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Oct 10, 2023 01:11
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I think neoliberalism is so entrenched now that even legally, to say nothing of legislatively, they wouldn't be able to more-or-less force a cutlery maker to make Bren guns. It's not just things the government has forgotten how to do, it's things that I'm reasonably sure they're not "allowed" to do anymore.
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Oct 10, 2023 01:16
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Palladium posted:the "we can build high speed rail just as fast as china if we went serious, ackstually" argument a successor state could do it, but lol at the underpants gnomes level fantasy of the current state reforming itself to be able to do mega-projects again
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Oct 10, 2023 01:21
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Palladium posted:what if we just let the PLA in and kill them through biohazard housing, toliets and food in US bases Now picturing PLA troops walking into a McDonald's and reacting like the dudes who liberated Auschwitz
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Oct 10, 2023 01:21
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Crossposting from the econ thread, SKULL.GIF posted:Lol if the Panama canal shuts down. Mandoric posted:So, uh, not sure what thread to even put this in, it's suitable for P/I, U/R, WW3, or here equally.
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Oct 10, 2023 01:33
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Like 40% of the British budget went to cruisers on foreign station. The US is not going to be able to guarantee the treat supply.
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Oct 10, 2023 01:48
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Lostconfused posted:Well they're not making anymore F-22, so it would have to be F-15. Imagine trying to restart production of -anything- where all the physical tools forms and inspection devices have been eradicated, like some random car model from 1983 or whatever. Even if you have the blueprints, there is a lot of special tooling and fixturing that needs to be created measured and approved before you can begin machining operations Edit: didn't refresh thread before posting, lol don't care
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Oct 10, 2023 02:28
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Frosted Flake posted:I think neoliberalism is so entrenched now that even legally, to say nothing of legislatively, they wouldn't be able to more-or-less force a cutlery maker to make Bren guns. I'm sure we could pass a law offering tax credits for armament manufacturing in low-income areas.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:37
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Frosted Flake posted:Like 40% of the British budget went to cruisers on foreign station. The US is not going to be able to guarantee the treat supply. A large powerful yet overstretched empire that over promises to it's many vassals then can't deliver in a time of need, leaving them up the creek. Fractional reserve military power. Feels familiar but I can't put a name on it.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:59
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We would pay private companies to build the things and it’ll all not get built at all and still cost 40000 gazillion dollars. not only would we lose a war, we’d go bankrupt paying the billionaires to lose it as they sit in their private villas in some country that isn’t at war. on the other hand, maybe global warming will slow a bit once the US shuts down so who can say if a war is good or bad?
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Oct 10, 2023 03:23
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500excf type r posted:Imagine trying to restart production of -anything- where all the physical tools forms and inspection devices have been eradicated, like some random car model from 1983 or whatever. Even if you have the blueprints, there is a lot of special tooling and fixturing that needs to be created measured and approved before you can begin machining operations one of the big war-hawk demands is that the US restart plutonium production, which will be funny af to see how big of a money pit that will be
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Oct 10, 2023 03:33
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500excf type r posted:Imagine trying to restart production of -anything- where all the physical tools forms and inspection devices have been eradicated, like some random car model from 1983 or whatever. Even if you have the blueprints, there is a lot of special tooling and fixturing that needs to be created measured and approved before you can begin machining operations Didn't they look into doing this for the Saturn V and decide it was impossible and easier to just give Elon money
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Oct 10, 2023 03:44
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DesertIslandHermit posted:A shame that Ian Miles Cheong apparently deleted the tweet thread explaining that Iran can be beaten in 6 months because the new US generation plays Fortnite. Nerds trying to posture their escapist hobbies as exploitable virtues is always the most pathetic thing.
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Oct 10, 2023 03:57
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Slavvy posted:Didn't they look into doing this for the Saturn V and decide it was impossible and easier to just give Elon money Part of it is that you can’t (cheaply) recreate old technology because even the screws and wires are different, so what were cheap commercial components then would have to be painstakingly made only for this application now. Think incandescent indicator lights and things like that. When we restore guns for the museum, we have to either hunt down British screws and bolts and other fittings from the 30’s, or worse, 1880’s or 1900’s, or make it ourselves. Some things you can’t do. For example, wound asbestos rags were used as part of the recoil mechanism, wrapping around part of the cylinder. Obviously, we can’t do that now. There are also materials that were cheap then but are prohibitively expensive now like brasses and bronzes. It all can be done, 6pdr and 17pdr AT guns, 13, 18 and 25pdr field guns all restored to firing condition and firing blanks and saluting rounds, BL 4.5 inch and 5.5 inch guns in the works. The thing is, each of these took months or years of work whereas the assembly lines were making them in days. Now, having said all that, it’s not actually easier to just give Elon money, in terms of an easier way to have a functioning space program. If you take my example above, people would argue that just giving BAE money is an easier way to get field guns than recreating the capacity of the arsenals that built them. The thing is, it would be easier to supply them once the requisite capacity exists, and without a profit motive you could have them turn specialized screws or whatever else you need to do. I guess I’m trying to say two things. Making new “old” technology is small scale, specialized and expensive, like the people who make Napoleonic uniforms and muskets for reenactors. That does add costs and complications, for sure. However, if the project is taken seriously, you could do all of these things, and get better results than dumping money onto private sector.
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Oct 10, 2023 04:10
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yeah no poo poo, everyone knows we “can” go to the moon or build HSR or provide medicine and clean drinking water to those in need but we all know we can’t actually build anything with actual use value anymore because the entire system is designed to siphon off value before it can be allowed to take the form of actual, useful (read: functional) commodities. it’s not even enough to build useless poo poo anymore, that was the dream of the 1990s. now everything is designed around service contracts and extraction of monopoly rents. this cursed dying empire literally can’t produce use values anymore
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Oct 10, 2023 04:39
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Frosted Flake posted:Part of it is that you can’t (cheaply) recreate old technology because even the screws and wires are different, so what were cheap commercial components then would have to be painstakingly made only for this application now. Think incandescent indicator lights and things like that. DC-3s and C-47s, which are still in use commercially in a few places because they're still really good at certain tasks (bush cargo operations in particular like them), are getting annoyingly difficult to keep running because no one makes the parts anymore and literally all of the remaining spare parts stocks were purchased by one company, who charges out the rear end for them even though they still have shitloads of everything lying around, because where else are you gonna go?
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Oct 10, 2023 04:44
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Centrist Committee posted:yeah no poo poo, everyone knows we “can” go to the moon or build HSR or provide medicine and clean drinking water to those in need but we all know we can’t actually build anything with actual use value anymore because the entire system is designed to siphon off value before it can be allowed to take the form of actual, useful (read: functional) commodities. it’s not even enough to build useless poo poo anymore, that was the dream of the 1990s. now everything is designed around service contracts and extraction of monopoly rents. this cursed dying empire literally can’t produce use values anymore exchange value becomes use value for the capitalists
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Oct 10, 2023 04:48
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fart simpson posted:exchange value becomes use value for the capitalists number go up
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Oct 10, 2023 05:01
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Centrist Committee posted:number go up got any better ideas?
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Oct 10, 2023 05:32
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Frosted Flake posted:I think neoliberalism is so entrenched now that even legally, to say nothing of legislatively, they wouldn't be able to more-or-less force a cutlery maker to make Bren guns. Have you read the WSJ article that was doing the "at what cost" bit for Russia's military industry expanding? Russia’s Economy Goes All In on War - WSJ quote:The militarization of the economy has propped up industrial production, provided jobs and helped raise wages. The growth it generates, coupled with ample revenues from high global oil prices, means that Moscow can continue to fund the war for now, economists say. like yeah sure russia's making more drones out of shopping malls and bakeries but have you considered inflation goes up and you have a labor shortage!?
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Oct 10, 2023 07:07
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WW3 looking more likely and more losery than ever folks
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Oct 11, 2023 07:00
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500excf type r posted:Imagine trying to restart production of -anything- where all the physical tools forms and inspection devices have been eradicated, like some random car model from 1983 or whatever. Even if you have the blueprints, there is a lot of special tooling and fixturing that needs to be created measured and approved before you can begin machining operations I'll admit it does bring a smile to my face imagining a total effort by the government to make from scratch brand new Renault Alliances
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Oct 11, 2023 11:19
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poemdexter posted:We would pay private companies to build the things and it’ll all not get built at all and still cost 40000 gazillion dollars. not only would we lose a war, we’d go bankrupt paying the billionaires to lose it as they sit in their private villas in some country that isn’t at war. We already pay private companies to develop things. I say develop and not build because, lol, where's the fun in finishing a project? Very little development of stuff for the DoD doesn't get funded by the DoD from the ground up. I assume something similar happens in medical research. The idea that our free economy is what drives innovation is bullshit. Our government spending drives innovation. Our entire Military–industrial complex-based economy is driven by dudes who get paid by US tax dollars to build moats around Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, and SAIC.
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Oct 11, 2023 14:52
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tadashi posted:We already pay private companies to develop things. I say develop and not build because, lol, where's the fun in finishing a project? relatable
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Oct 11, 2023 17:00
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wanted to revisit this pdf... lol again Securing Defense-Critical Supply Chains - Feb 2022 (pdf). quote:The Military Services have experienced casting and forging capability and capacity challenges that can be attributed in part to the impacts of offshoring and waves of industry consolidation since the mid- 20th century. For example, the United States has only one foundry that can produce the large titanium castings required for some key systems. The Army has also identified shortfalls in production and heat treatment of specialty alloys that are mission critical. The Navy has documented C&F capacity and quality issues affecting many facets of shipbuilding. The Air Force has identified needs for the ability to cast single crystal turbine blades and large thin-wall titanium components, an additional source for an extrusion press used for powder nickel super alloy billets, and downstream post-processing capacities and capabilities—including heat treating, coating, hole drilling, machining, and hot isostatic pressing to help eliminate unwanted voids and provide increased strength in cast products. Although some suppliers have updated equipment over time in an attempt to meet the Services’ needs, many commercial and OIB C&F plants have aging equipment or are limited by existing facilities, infrastructure, and, for commercial firms, state and federal operating permits. quote:The nearly 30 million small businesses in the United States account for over 40 percent of U.S. quote:Diminished Domestic Manufacturing Capacity quote:
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Oct 11, 2023 17:04
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Wait you're telling me you can't run a state defense industry using the cult of small business?
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Oct 11, 2023 18:46
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The Oldest Man posted:Wait you're telling me you can't run a state defense industry using the cult of small business? I don’t know how to articulate how much people have been trained to have a distaste for heavy industry and will privilege any bullshit that’s lean, digital, innovative or a start up. States were built on heavy industry, it’s literally the foundation of post-medieval armies going back to bell foundries making the first bombards, but they would rather have people working out of a WeWork not produce anything than have steel mills producing armour plate or gun barrels. It’s the weirdest goddamn thing.
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Oct 11, 2023 18:53
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Frosted Flake posted:I don’t know how to articulate how much people have been trained to have a distaste for heavy industry and will privilege any bullshit that’s lean, digital, innovative or a start up. wework makes the right people rich via rent extraction, hth
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Oct 11, 2023 19:05
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Delta-Wye posted:wework makes the right people rich via rent extraction, hth I agree but you can’t fight a war with rent extraction, so they’ve put the military in an unenviable position.
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Oct 11, 2023 19:07
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