|
I’m getting proper sick of this hand-wringing about the foreigners who are so imperiled. Like, gently caress off, I simply would choose not to visit an Apartheid state for my personal amusement or enrichment. I feel a great deal more sympathy towards Israeli civilians caught up in this than I do for people who looked at the situation and booked a goddamn trip.
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 05:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 15:20 |
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 05:12
|
|
|
PT6A posted:I’m getting proper sick of this hand-wringing about the foreigners who are so imperiled. Like, gently caress off, I simply would choose not to visit an Apartheid state for my personal amusement or enrichment. I feel a great deal more sympathy towards Israeli civilians caught up in this than I do for people who looked at the situation and booked a goddamn trip. And what if, as is most likely, that the non-Isreali citizens were there for other reasons besides being a tourist? Like as mannerup said, or even just dual-citizens who were visiting family in the area and thus would be Isreali civilians even if referred to as foreigners as the media would generally classify them outside of Isreal?
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 05:15
|
|
|
There was a point in time the LTTE in Sri Lanka reckoned itself invincible, to the point where it openly pursued terror in India - the only country that could actually support it in Sri Lanka. Of course it did not feel that it needed protection. By the time it realized its vulnerability and moderated its claims (from an independent Tamil state to an autonomous Tamil state with weaker and weaker safeguards and guarantees), it was already too late to reverse its decline. A fair bit of that can be pinned on the personalistic leadership of the movement; it really only ever had one leader (Velupillai Prabhakaran) who misjudged the evolving Cold War context (specifically that India did not need to put up with LTTE pretensions the moment tensions dropped enough that Sri Lanka could not be used as a wedge; see also Arab unity once it became clear that the West would not again contest the new status quo control of the Suez or the oil weapon) It is similarly too late for Palestinian nationalist movements to avoid the mistake of aggravating literally every Arab neighbour the proposed country could have at this point save Syria. The core problem is that claims written from a position of strength are difficult to pursue from a position of weakness (1967 borders/East Jerusalem was supposed to be the easy option relative to pushing Israel into the sea). A practical goal at this point would be forming a Palestinian unity leadership that can be the acceptable face of the movement to other Muslim countries, which would be all the more likely if Israel rethinks the wisdom of a policy of Gaza strip separation
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 05:26
|
|
|
ronya posted:
SL is an interesting and quasi-relevant example, but the solution (to date) wound up being the more moderate Tamil political organizations completely discarding the nationalist movement in favor of limited autonomy and inclusion in national government, and also letting the rump LTTE eventually be scourged from the earth with artillery and mass graves along with [indeterminate but troubling number of] Tamil civilians who happened to be in the general geographical area. Israel is emphatically not willing to pursue this sort of one-state solution, partly because Palestinians (not even counting the already expelled population) represent 30%ish of the population of geographical-Greater-Israel, not 15%. and iirc that number doesn't include the ~20% of current Israeli population that are Arabs so lol, good luck persuading the shitheads to accept at most a flimsy demographic majority Comparing Hamas with the LTTE, on the other hand, is fairly viable. It is also unflattering to Hamas - the LTTE were monsters even by the standards of the violent end of the Tamil nationalist movement, and were very fond of slaughtering other Tamil nationalists who wouldn't submit - and suggests that Hamas is unequivocally doomed. which i guess is somewhat the upshot of your post in the first place
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 05:39
|
|
|
Xander77 posted:Per Egypt, their Defense Minister directly warned Netanyahu of a major breakout over a week ago. All over Israeli media, Bibi denies it as (of course) "fake news". Seems they were very complacent and rather delusional. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/ 
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 05:54
|
|
|
Hamas apparently has one fan among world leaders: Bibi! From Haaretz, courtesy of @biggestjoel: (who is a very good and funny youtuber, if you aren't familiar)  It's kind of stunning to me that he just out and said it like that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 06:50
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Hamas apparently has one fan among world leaders: Bibi! Is the whole Haaretz piece worth tracking down? It's behind a paywall.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 06:57
|
|
|
Eric Cantonese posted:Is the whole Haaretz piece worth tracking down? It's behind a paywall. https://archive.ph/ABPWd
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 07:01
|
|
|
Eric Cantonese posted:Is the whole Haaretz piece worth tracking down? It's behind a paywall. That link doesn't work for me, but the full text can also be accessed here. It's less of a piece on the war with Palestine, and more of a polemic calling for Bibi to resign in the wake of his corruption cases and now this massive security fuckup. But it's an interesting read nonetheless.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 07:09
|
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:Hamas should be supported because they are The democratically elected leaders of the Palestinian people and also because they provide the greatest opposition against Israel's genocidal aims right now. "You don't have to approve of each individual act in the struggle" gets insanely weird in this circumstance.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 07:12
|
|
|
Kavros posted:"You don't have to approve of each individual act in the struggle" gets insanely weird in this circumstance. if it makes you feel better, it doesnt matter what you personally approve of anyway, since your government (i mean depending on where you live, im assuming..) is going to support israel anyway
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 07:17
|
|
|
nogoodpeople posted:
Could you answer my question please? How is Hamas supposed to stop 50% of the apartheid? Or even slow it down? Israel can stop it whenever they want. Also keep in mind that the Civil Rights Act didn't pass until after MLK was assassinated, and the resultant riots threatened the people in power. It wasn't just a matter of nonviolent protest. And just because nonviolence worked in 1960s America doesn't mean it works everywhere else. As others have pointed out, Palestinians have attempted nonviolent protest, and for the most part the world doesn't care when they get mowed down by IDF snipers. Israel still has the financial and military support of the world's greatest superpower and many other nations.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 07:25
|
|
|
Fister Roboto posted:Also keep in mind that the Civil Rights Act didn't pass until after MLK was assassinated edit too snide but [puts on d&d hat] this is incorrect i say swears online fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Oct 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 07:27
|
|
|
e: oops not cspam
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 07:28
|
|
|
Fister Roboto posted:
MLK was assassinated in 1968, the civil right acts was passed in 1964
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 07:35
|
|
|
i say swears online posted:edit too snide but [puts on d&d hat] this is incorrect Right, Civil Rights Act of 1968. My bad.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 07:36
|
|
|
Google Jeb Bush posted:SL is an interesting and quasi-relevant example, but the solution (to date) wound up being the more moderate Tamil political organizations completely discarding the nationalist movement in favor of limited autonomy and inclusion in national government, and also letting the rump LTTE eventually be scourged from the earth with artillery and mass graves along with [indeterminate but troubling number of] Tamil civilians who happened to be in the general geographical area. Israel is emphatically not willing to pursue this sort of one-state solution, partly because Palestinians (not even counting the already expelled population) represent 30%ish of the population of geographical-Greater-Israel, not 15%. and iirc that number doesn't include the ~20% of current Israeli population that are Arabs so lol, good luck persuading the shitheads to accept at most a flimsy demographic majority a Tamil majority was never in the cards for Sri Lanka, but the regional majority could be (and was) chipped away through emigration of Sri Lankan Tamils. The Eastern Province is now 40% Tamil, a plurality, which is sufficient to dilute claims to Eelam heartlands. Israel encouraging Gazans to emigrate permanently has been ongoing (especially the young and ambitious), it's not subtle As far as dooming goes (equivocal or otherwise), once upon a time the Cuban government got overexcited about Chinese intentions and mistakenly presumed that Beijing intended to recapitulate the Soviet practice of writing blank cheques in exchange for unmitigated anti-Western solidarity; I'm vaguely wondering if Iran and Syria are likewise misreading the PRC's level of support in stepping into the vacuum left by Russia 2015-2022. Russia protected Assad from collapse with thousands of boots on the ground and hundreds of airstrikes; would Beijing protect Hamas or Hezbollah the same way? It's not very plausible. ronya fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Oct 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 08:23
|
|
|
ronya posted:a Tamil majority was never in the cards for Sri Lanka, but the regional majority could be (and was) chipped away through emigration of Sri Lankan Tamils. The Eastern Province is now 40% Tamil, a plurality, which is sufficient to dilute claims to Eelam heartlands. China doesnt have a Mediterranean naval base in gaza so no
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 08:36
|
|
|
Asking 'what else could Hamas have done' is insane to me because they demonstrated they could do a whole bunch of other things last weekend! They decisively breached containment, overran some IDF positions and were able to capture senior IDF officers. If they had done that without also committing some of the worst atrocities against civilians of the 21st century that would've put Israel in a very difficult situation - Bibi would still have been humiliated by a catastrophic failure, and his government would have to negotiate for the release of the prisoners. But as-is all domestic and international opposition to razing Gaza to the ground has evaporated, and Hamas will be wiped out along with any civilians who are unable to flee (currently this is looking to be 'all of them').
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 08:41
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:But as-is all domestic and international opposition to razing Gaza to the ground has evaporated, and Hamas will be wiped out along with any civilians who are unable to flee (currently this is looking to be 'all of them'). And what exactly do you suppose that international opposition would have amounted to. To make my point clear: I don't believe that the messaging would have been any different without the rave massacre. Israel would have still gone berserk over being overrun, and America would have still called in all its vassals to give it the thumbs up. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Oct 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 08:42
|
|
|
Raisi in February, Saudi-Iran deal in March, Abbas in June, Assad just a fortnight ago - lots of gestures but no indication that Beijing is even paying enough attention Is Netanyahu still on course to visit Beijing this month? His domestic engagements might suddenly be quite full.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 08:49
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:Asking 'what else could Hamas have done' is insane to me because they demonstrated they could do a whole bunch of other things last weekend! They decisively breached containment, overran some IDF positions and were able to capture senior IDF officers. If they had done that without also committing some of the worst atrocities against civilians of the 21st century that would've put Israel in a very difficult situation - Bibi would still have been humiliated by a catastrophic failure, and his government would have to negotiate for the release of the prisoners. But as-is all domestic and international opposition to razing Gaza to the ground has evaporated, and Hamas will be wiped out along with any civilians who are unable to flee (currently this is looking to be 'all of them'). "some of the worst atrocities against civilians of the 21st century" is a huge stretch considering what Israel has repeatedly done, and is currently doing RIGHT NOW to Palestinians during the 21st century.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 08:51
|
|
|
FlapYoJacks posted:"some of the worst atrocities against civilians of the 21st century" is a huge stretch considering what Israel has repeatedly done, and is currently doing RIGHT NOW to Palestinians during the 21st century. Yeah you kind of have to ignore the Israel backed action against over a million civilians going on right now which is a really bad look imo. The scale couldn't be more different.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 08:58
|
|
|
Mischievous Mink posted:Yeah you kind of have to ignore the Israel backed action against over a million civilians going on right now which is a really bad look imo. The scale couldn't be more different. Over two million civilians. One million children
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 09:00
|
|
|
paul_soccer12 posted:Over two million civilians. One million children It's insane how the governments of the world overwhelming cheer it on, flying Israel's flag in celebration and defense over what they're doing. The scale of it is such that I literally cannot imagine the mindset of anyone who doesn't care, or, disturbingly mainstream, actually -supports- it. My country being one of the biggest defenders of it... Christ. We have no leadership to choose from that thinks the genocide of a million minors is bad!
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 09:08
|
|
|
Mischievous Mink posted:It's insane how the governments of the world overwhelming cheer it on, flying Israel's flag in celebration and defense over what they're doing. The scale of it is such that I literally cannot imagine the mindset of anyone who doesn't care, or, disturbingly mainstream, actually -supports- it. My country being one of the biggest defenders of it... Christ. We have no leadership to choose from that thinks the genocide of a million minors is bad! WWII is a hell of a drug. America built it into its national mythos to an extreme degree and it still blinds people to atrocities.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 09:12
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:committing some of the worst atrocities against civilians of the 21st century Do you mean cutting off power and water supply from 2 million people living in the world's largest ghetto?
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 09:15
|
|
|
Mischievous Mink posted:It's insane how the governments of the world overwhelming cheer it on, flying Israel's flag in celebration and defense over what they're doing. The scale of it is such that I literally cannot imagine the mindset of anyone who doesn't care, or, disturbingly mainstream, actually -supports- it. My country being one of the biggest defenders of it... Christ. We have no leadership to choose from that thinks the genocide of a million minors is bad! My country gives weapons and political cover to a settler colonial genocide as its happening in real time while somberly breaking their arm patting themselves on the back for just now apologizing for all the mass graves full of child skeletons that keep inconveniently turning up. Feels lame to pay taxes for this poo poo !! Especially when my hip young liberal head of govt calls me a terrorist sympathizer for going to a solidarity rally https://twitter.com/JustinTrudeau/status/1711487882416767030
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 09:16
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:Asking 'what else could Hamas have done' is insane to me because they demonstrated they could do a whole bunch of other things last weekend! They decisively breached containment, overran some IDF positions and were able to capture senior IDF officers. If they had done that without also committing some of the worst atrocities against civilians of the 21st century that would've put Israel in a very difficult situation - Bibi would still have been humiliated by a catastrophic failure, and his government would have to negotiate for the release of the prisoners. But as-is all domestic and international opposition to razing Gaza to the ground has evaporated, and Hamas will be wiped out along with any civilians who are unable to flee (currently this is looking to be 'all of them'). I haven't seen much evidence to suggest that the rapes and murders of civilians were centrally-planned. It seems more likely to me, as Neurolimal suggested, that they were the result of a lack of discipline among the Hamas fighters. Hopefully those fighters will be brought to justice by the appropriate authorities, and Hamas, if it survives as an organization, will institute more rigid discipline among its fighting units. Majorian fucked around with this message at 09:25 on Oct 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 09:23
|
|
|
I've regained my composure and wandered back into the thread. Israel claims that atm there are 123 dead soldiers and 41 dead policemen on their side and the total death count is around 1000. That's a little over 80% civilians. Hamas militants went into 12 towns and by most accounts just went house to house shooting indiscriminately and sometimes putting houses on fire. I don't see how something like that can be 'unintentional', it had to have come from above. If I had to guess what their goals were, it's to create an atmosphere of fear that might cause Israel to be more belligerent over the next few years but eventually be more amenable to some sort of deal, when the bloodlust has sated? Otherwise this doesn't make sense to me. Edit: Being less clear cut. Edit 2: Israel put the policemen death count at 41. kiminewt fucked around with this message at 09:58 on Oct 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 09:31
|
|
|
Szarrukin posted:Do you mean cutting off power and water supply from 2 million people living in the world's largest ghetto? The median age being 18.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 09:35
|
|
|
There's some world leaders/major figures denouncing it, though they're all outside the West's sphere of influence; Kadyrov, Morales, Maduro, Khameni, etc. Mainly leaders that don't have to worry about getting muscled on western trade & retired/domestic figures. Jinping and Putin have both put out statements pleading for peace, which in the current climate might as well be pro-Palestine. Unsurprisingly, all the satellite proxies are very hard-in on Israel; Zelensky, Guaido, Tsikhanouskaya, Trudeau etc.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 09:36
|
|
|
kiminewt posted:I've regained my composure and wandered back into the thread. E: nevermind, I will look into it tomorrow. I want to make sure I’m working off of facts in this discussion. If what you say in bold is true though, then I stand corrected. Majorian fucked around with this message at 09:53 on Oct 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 09:38
|
|
|
kiminewt posted:If I had to guess what their goals were, it's to create an atmosphere of fear that might cause Israel to be more belligerent over the next few years but eventually be more amenable to some sort of deal, when the bloodlust has sated? Otherwise this doesn't make sense to me. I believe the official Israel policy is the complete eradication of every last Palestinian man woman and child, so it sounds like Israel will be amenable to a deal where they ask a graveyard if they can stop fighting, and when nobody is left to answer they will be satisfied with the terms.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 09:39
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Genuinely asking, because I want to have an accurate understanding of the situation: which accounts are those? I understand why people will look at any Israeli accounts with suspicion, but I'm not sure there is much dissension on this point (but then again I'm reading western sites). And for the latter point, Mischevious Mink-if you are correct then what do you think the plan is behind Hamas' actions? Simply lashing out because there's nothing else to do? I feel like there has to be a motive and thinking behind it all. kiminewt fucked around with this message at 09:56 on Oct 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 09:52
|
|
|
Majorian posted:I haven't seen much evidence to suggest that the rapes and murders of civilians were centrally-planned. It seems more likely to me, as Neurolimal suggested, that they were the result of a lack of discipline among the Hamas fighters. Hopefully those fighters will be brought to justice by the appropriate authorities, and Hamas, if it survives as an organization, will institute more rigid discipline among its fighting units. What evidence have you seen that suggest that the murders of civilians weren’t centrally planned? TBH, this sounds like wishful thinking to me, since most of the Israeli deaths have been civilians
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 09:55
|
|
|
Mischievous Mink posted:I believe the official Israel policy is the complete eradication of every last Palestinian man woman and child, so it sounds like Israel will be amenable to a deal where they ask a graveyard if they can stop fighting, and when nobody is left to answer they will be satisfied with the terms. During the 51 day war israel murdered so many civilians that gaza ran out of room for the bodies and were prevented from burying their dead as israel bombed their cemeteries https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2014/8/4/gaza-no-place-to-bury-the-dead quote:Rafah, Gaza Strip – Umm Mohammed Abu Sada uses her headscarf to block the stench of bodies, some of which have been lying outside for days. Excluded from Israel’s humanitarian ceasefire in the Gaza Strip, this city in southern Gaza has suffered under continued Israeli shelling and air strikes.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 09:55
|
|
|
kiminewt posted:And for the latter point, Mischevious Mink-if you are correct then what do you think the plan is behind Hamas' actions? Simply lashing out because there's nothing else to do? I feel like there has to be a motive and thinking behind it all. There's no if, it's Israel's openly stated position. This isn't ambiguous.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 09:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 15:20 |
|
|
Kalit posted:What evidence have you seen that suggest that the murders of civilians weren’t centrally planned? TBH, this sounds like wishful thinking to me, since most of the Israeli deaths have been civilians From what i've seen from Hamas's statements, they do not consider settlers to be civilians, but rather fair targets. I think a likely candidate for a central strategy is to make Israel's pushing of settlements untenable due to fear for their own safety
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2023 09:58
|
|