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Mischievous Mink posted:There's no if, it's Israel's openly stated position. This isn't ambiguous. I don't think so. It's a fair interpretation of actual reality or even just subtext but they're not openly stating that. Why would they? Better off making themselves look good. As for "settlers" being acceptable targets. What is the difference between a settler and a citizen? Does Hamas consider every civilian in Israel a settler? The towns that were attacked are within 1947 Israel lines, not even 1967. Most of them created in the 40s or 50s. So they're not akin to somewhere like the West Bank or even Hasharon. They're less of a settlement than Tel-Aviv. When you consider all of Israel as occupied then I can understand this definition but I still think a distinction between "normal" Israeli towns and ones built in the West Bank or neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem is at least useful.
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Oct 10, 2023 10:08
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A big flaming stink posted:From what i've seen from Hamas's statements, they do not consider settlers to be civilians, but rather fair targets. I think a likely candidate for a central strategy is to make Israel's pushing of settlements untenable due to fear for their own safety Considering how Israel is distributing m16s to settlers it sounds like even Israel doesn't consider them civilians. They're actively making a living enjoying the spoils of genocide, and they are armed and ready to kill for more.
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Oct 10, 2023 10:10
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Mischievous Mink posted:Considering how Israel is distributing m16s to settlers it sounds like even Israel doesn't consider them civilians. They're actively making a living enjoying the spoils of genocide, and they are armed and ready to kill for more. I might have been really out of it but I really thought that there wasn’t Israeli settlers in the Gaza Strip, rather they were in the West Bank. Not sure how this comment tracks.
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Oct 10, 2023 10:11
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https://twitter.com/ashoswai/status/1711651896195228022 I just don't have the words... loving hell 
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Oct 10, 2023 10:15
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Recoome posted:I might have been really out of it but I really thought that there wasn’t Israeli settlers in the Gaza Strip, rather they were in the West Bank. Not sure how this comment tracks. There aren't any Israelis in Gaza since 2009, with the disengagement plan. I don't about distributing M16s but there are a lot of civilians with gun licenses in the West Bank which I assume is what they're referring to. The towns around Gaza are fairly small, the biggest having 30k people. Hence the small police forces.
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Oct 10, 2023 10:18
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fuctifino posted:https://twitter.com/ashoswai/status/1711651896195228022 Let me find some for you. Death to Israel. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 10:23
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fuctifino posted:https://twitter.com/ashoswai/status/1711651896195228022 
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Oct 10, 2023 10:23
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A big flaming stink posted:From what i've seen from Hamas's statements, they do not consider settlers to be civilians, but rather fair targets. I think a likely candidate for a central strategy is to make Israel's pushing of settlements untenable due to fear for their own safety What is Hamas' definition of a settler? Is it possible to be an Israeli citizen and not a settler according to them?
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Oct 10, 2023 10:24
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A big flaming stink posted:From what i've seen from Hamas's statements, they do not consider settlers to be civilians, but rather fair targets. I think a likely candidate for a central strategy is to make Israel's pushing of settlements untenable due to fear for their own safety As others insinuated, based on the location, it seems unlikely that many of the those murdered were settlers Also, as an FYI, using Hamas’s statements probably isn’t the best source of truth for how many civilians they have murdered. According to Basem Naim, they haven’t killed any civilians at all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egipqa0ZhUk Kalit fucked around with this message at 10:58 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 10:51
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fuctifino posted:https://twitter.com/ashoswai/status/1711651896195228022 Yeah, that’s war alright
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Oct 10, 2023 11:00
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nvm
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Oct 10, 2023 11:19
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Collapsing Farts posted:Yeah, that’s war alright its not war, its extinction.
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Oct 10, 2023 11:46
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Collapsing Farts posted:Yeah, that’s war alright Russia was more restrained in their war. This is less a war, and more total destruction.
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Oct 10, 2023 12:11
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Judgy Fucker posted:Agreed. Israel should end the genocide and apartheid to help ensure the lives of all Palestinians. Why was this probed as shitposting? This user being sarcastic or something? Because I agree with the statement. Israel has consistently had the power to stop the violence. This isn't cheerleading, this is 100% objective fact. There's not exactly wiggle room here. Hamas and its recent atrocities are barbaric, wrong and anyone sane will condemn them but until there is an actual fair, balanced analysis into why this happened and how we got to this point from the Western mainstream media and politicians, there's no route to peace. Palestine is an occupied and oppressed nation. The Palestinians aren't the oppressors. Anyone who's being interviewed asking for their condemnation of Hamas by Sky, BBC or any other biased organisation should immediately give it on the condition that the interviewer and their organisation will publicly condemn Israels significantly more numerous war crimes and commit to investigation as to why a terrorist organisation decided to launch an attack on the country. Ask them who's occupying who. Ask them that if Israel has the right to defend itself, do those rights extend to Palestinians? If condemnation for war crimes is on the media menu today and in the forthcoming weeks, there's plenty choose from even the most casual glance at the IDFs atrocities in the last 2 years alone. And yeah, I know this is going to be shut down and will be blanket suppressed but this hypocrisy needs to end and needs to be called out. Hats off to the handful of interviews I've seen, including the one CNN aired and posted upthread, that have had people explaining the situation in context.
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Oct 10, 2023 12:21
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Marenghi posted:Russia was more restrained in their war. And Bibi says that destroying Hamas strongholds is "just the beginning" and a senior IDF official said not targeting civilians isn't so simple because any building where people are living, a "Hamas kingpin" could be there. They're going to just keep murdering.
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Oct 10, 2023 12:32
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 12:33
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Marenghi posted:Russia was more restrained in their war. Uhh, no? Look at some pictures of Mariupol. Or if you’re talking about Syria and not Ukraine, look at some photos of Deir Ezzor from 2015. It looks exactly like that Gaza video a couple posts up, and it was literally 95%+ of the city that looked like that.
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Oct 10, 2023 12:43
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Is there any good reporting on IDF troop movements and preparedness (for the assault of Gaza)? I'm assuming everything that's happening right now is part of a plan that has long since been drawn up. Does anyone know what that plan might be? I saw some footage of what looked like a staging area for armoured vehicles (flying the flag of an artillery division) empty out a few hours ago, and I was expecting a ground assault to follow shortly after, but nothing happened.
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Oct 10, 2023 12:44
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mannerup posted:
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Oct 10, 2023 12:55
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The IDF bombed the checkpoint. Forgot they bombed it. Told people to flee towards it. Remembered that they'd bombed it and then retracted their statement.
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Oct 10, 2023 12:57
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My two cents: Anyone who one-sidedly condemns Hamas/Palestine is tacitly endorsing a return to the status quo, which is unacceptable to me. It's clear that many aspects of Hamas' attack are despicable and likely counterproductive. While I think it's correct to condemn such unjustifiable attacks, I can't agree with anybody who merely condemns them. Such people can't truly be interested in peace and justice for both sides. I emphasize peace and justice because much of the discourse, especially from the west, seems to crave "peace", though I would describe what they want more as "quiet". They want the conflict to resolve itself quietly, one way or another, without destabilizing regional politics or upsetting their allies. The Israeli state's answer to this is to crush Palestine quietly and slowly via blockades, checkpoints, and forced population transfer. The end goal is a quiet "peace" without justice. An atrocity. A mass grave. This strategy has been in place much longer than Hamas has existed, and would continue were Hamas to disappear. Any discourse which doesn't address this, even if they're pleading for "peace", isn't worth engaging with, IMO.
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Oct 10, 2023 12:57
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Saladman posted:Uhh, no? Look at some pictures of Mariupol. Or if you’re talking about Syria and not Ukraine, look at some photos of Deir Ezzor from 2015. It looks exactly like that Gaza video a couple posts up, and it was literally 95%+ of the city that looked like that. Mariupol was an actual battle, though. Two armies shooting at each other. This is a fleet of jets prowling across a defenseless city looking for errant hospitals or schools that haven't been bombed yet. You expect this scenery in the middle of an intense conflict, not the chair force eyeballing which group of citizens should eat a bomb.
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Oct 10, 2023 13:04
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Any Israeli action short of genocide will fail. 50% of the population of Gaza is below 18. Unless they kill the children under 18, in 2-5 years the 13-16 year olds will be 18 and they'll be back to where they started. The end result is inevitable - every person Israel kills will cause 2-8 more other people to rise up against them. The only actual solution is for Israel to give up a tiny amount of their power and land and let Palestine be it's own independent state with a reason for it's own independent leadership to have enough power of their own to control their own population and give them hope that living another day is worth more than giving their lives to attack Israel. The solution in other cases, such as Syria, was for people to flee. Gaza has nowhere to flee now. Israel, and more importantly it's leadership, will choose genocide.
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Oct 10, 2023 13:12
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Neurolimal posted:Mariupol was an actual battle, though. Two armies shooting at each other. This is a fleet of jets prowling across a defenseless city looking for errant hospitals or schools that haven't been bombed yet. You expect this scenery in the middle of an intense conflict, not the chair force eyeballing which group of citizens should eat a bomb. The Russian army has been under explicit orders to literally raze the entire city. It doesn't take much to see while the situation in Gaza is bad it is not at all comparable to something like Mariupol or Aleppo.
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Oct 10, 2023 13:26
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I mean I know it was coming, but I'm just loving disgusted at all these developments over the last few days. All the solemn statements that people or countries stand with Israel; the western media's coverage of Hamas' assault as if it's an isolated terror attack on a peaceful nation of ravers and average families; everyone lining up to watch the grotesque spectacle of the IDF doing their best to wipe out 2 million people in as short a time as possible as if it's righteous justice.... I've had to leave social media for a while because I can't stand listening to "liberal" Jewish friends who live in western countries and have only the slightest connection to Israel talk about how unsafe this makes them feel (after not ever making a peep about the treatment of Palestinians), or how despite their differences with Bibi, this just demonstrates why we all have to support Israel. Does anyone know of a good pro-Palestinian charity I can donate to? I'm guessing the Red Crescent? I know that a lot of orgs that do work in Gaza or Palestine in general can have their funds frozen and that sort of thing, so it would be helpful to know how I can most effectively send support to the mind boggling amount of Palestinian civilians who are going to need it more than ever.
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Oct 10, 2023 13:26
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 13:29
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Comstar posted:Israel, and more importantly it's leadership, will choose genocide. This is not something they will decide in the future. They haven't already decided upon genocide and are progressing towards that goal. This has been stated openly by the Israeli government and military. It's happening right now. Click on this link. Every time you hear a "boom" that is the sound of Israeli moving towards that goal and according to them they've barely even begun the slaughter yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6xBrZFEeiQ
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Oct 10, 2023 13:31
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Asking 'what else could Hamas have done' is insane to me because they demonstrated they could do a whole bunch of other things last weekend! They decisively breached containment, overran some IDF positions and were able to capture senior IDF officers. If they had done that without also committing some of the worst atrocities against civilians of the 21st century that would've put Israel in a very difficult situation - Bibi would still have been humiliated by a catastrophic failure, and his government would have to negotiate for the release of the prisoners. But as-is all domestic and international opposition to razing Gaza to the ground has evaporated, and Hamas will be wiped out along with any civilians who are unable to flee (currently this is looking to be 'all of them'). Same. They could have easily have chosen to pick military targets but instead choose civilians at rave? History is full of oppressed minorities and many of them got their freedom without resorting to Columbine-esq. shootings. FlapYoJacks posted:"some of the worst atrocities against civilians of the 21st century" is a huge stretch considering what Israel has repeatedly done, and is currently doing RIGHT NOW to Palestinians during the 21st century. True but why does this matter? The situation could be even be worse, much worse yet I cannot think of any reason why it would be morally justified to kidnap an old Israeli grandma or murder even the dumbest raver.
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Oct 10, 2023 13:37
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Neurolimal posted:Mariupol was an actual battle, though. Two armies shooting at each other. This is a fleet of jets prowling across a defenseless city looking for errant hospitals or schools that haven't been bombed yet. You expect this scenery in the middle of an intense conflict, not the chair force eyeballing which group of citizens should eat a bomb. Yeah it’s definitely not a precise analogy, it is just insane for someone to say that Russia was "more restrained" in Ukraine or Syria, when they literally destroyed 50% of the buildings and severely damaged a further 45% in a city of 500k, of whom 400k left and thousands (if not tens of) died.
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Oct 10, 2023 13:46
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Majorian posted:I haven't seen much evidence to suggest that the rapes and murders of civilians were centrally-planned. It seems more likely to me, as Neurolimal suggested, that they were the result of a lack of discipline among the Hamas fighters. Hopefully those fighters will be brought to justice by the appropriate authorities, and Hamas, if it survives as an organization, will institute more rigid discipline among its fighting units. Are you saying that Hamas just had a few bad apples and hopefully they'll train their soldiers better in the future? Chalking up rapes and murders to "lack of discipline" seems odd to me.
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Oct 10, 2023 13:48
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kolby posted:Chalking up rapes and murders to "lack of discipline" seems odd to me. Footage of the attacks including those against civilian is plastered all of their social media and often celebrated or at a minimum endorsed.
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Oct 10, 2023 13:49
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kolby posted:Are you saying that Hamas just had a few bad apples and hopefully they'll train their soldiers better in the future? Have the rapes even been confirmed or is this just more racist bullshit?
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Oct 10, 2023 13:57
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No-one has been convicted in a court of law but there are several videos of stripped and brutalised female victims that strongly suggest it.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:03
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mannerup posted:the fact that Israel is directly stating that Egyptian citizens operating those vehicles are legitimate targets is a direct violation of the 1979 agreement They didn't actually say that, the words were that if the trucks were to go in they would "react appropriately" which is legalese for we will bomb the poo poo out of them, but here's some plausible deniability.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:05
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Jimlit posted:Have the rapes even been confirmed or is this just more racist bullshit? Why are you acting like the claim of rapes occurring was Kolby’s?
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Oct 10, 2023 14:09
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Jimlit posted:Have the rapes even been confirmed or is this just more racist bullshit? Mostly first hand accounts in minor blogs/online magazines/etc, but nothing that has been confirmed by Big Media or whatever. Mostly it's conjecture based on the video evidence as mentioned above. If you read the Palestinian accounts it's the opposite. Prisoners are treated Good and Well and in accordance with Islamic Law. We're almost certainly not going to get any significant evidence anytime soon, if at all (since the witnesses are dead or in Gaza), at least until coroner reports come in.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:10
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Same. They could have easily have chosen to pick military targets but instead choose civilians at rave? History is full of oppressed minorities and many of them got their freedom without resorting to Columbine-esq. shootings. The IDF is doing way worse things to larger numbers of people in the past and currently so if your concern is innocent victims then I’m not sure the handwringing about Hamas is going to lead to less blood being spilled. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 14:10
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:The Russian army has been under explicit orders to literally raze the entire city. It doesn't take much to see while the situation in Gaza is bad it is not at all comparable to something like Mariupol or Aleppo. The two are not comparable because Mariupol was evacuated besides small numbers of civilians used as human shields by Azov and then murdered by Kadyrov's butchers and Wagner nazis. 2 million people live in Gaza and given the amount of destruction its possible Israel has already eclipsed the civilian death toll of the entire Ukraine conflict. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 14:10
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PT6A posted:I’m getting proper sick of this hand-wringing about the foreigners who are so imperiled. Like, gently caress off, I simply would choose not to visit an Apartheid state for my personal amusement or enrichment. I feel a great deal more sympathy towards Israeli civilians caught up in this than I do for people who looked at the situation and booked a goddamn trip. Hey, getting an all-expenses paid trip to the holy land is for many lower/middle class Americans our, well, Birthright.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:13
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Considering all the other heinous acts on full display it's ridiculous to assume that rape would somehow be a bridge too far.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:14
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