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PT6A posted:Leaders all over the world are arguing that thing by word and deed, actually. This is some "well, all lives matter!" bullshit. The suffering of the Palestinian people has been ignored both presently and historically by the rest of the world. CNN crews aren't in the hospitals in Gaza documenting the wonderful fruits of the Free World's passion for statecraft and peacemaking, they're hand in hand with the IDF and it's vile. I can't speak for anyone else, but this is the crux of the issue for me, at least. I try to avoid following the news and social media, but whatever I do come across is either Likud and their various right-wing allies describing Palestinians as rabid animals who deserve to be culled, or nominally more progressive politicians unequivocally condemning the initial attacks and declaring their support for Israel, while pointedly ignoring any historical or current atrocities being perpetrated against Palestinians. That frustration wells up within me when I see a long discussion focusing entirely on the rave attacks, but goons going back and forth on the matter isn't actually what's upsetting here. I think it can be taken on faith that everyone posting in this thread understands that Israel is ultimately the aggressor and categorically the only party with the agency to stop the atrocities happening on either side, and if anyone feels that that sentence does not describe them, feel free to chime in. E: apparently CNN has news teams on the ground in Gaza; credit where credit is due, good on them
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Oct 10, 2023 19:10
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Tatsuta Age posted:Reminder the killing babies slant was pretty strongly implied and used as justification to go into Iraq the first time To be fair, there was also the conquest and annexation of Kuwait. Unless that was a PR stunt as well.
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Oct 10, 2023 19:13
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Miftan posted:The west bank has regular protests (at least 1-2 a week, at specific places and times) so they're never reported on, but I imagine those have gotten rowdier/more violent. It's a 'dog bites man' scenario though so unless something BIG happens, it won't get reported, but it is almost definitely happening worse than usual. the lack of BIG things is the crux here; presumably it shows the presence or absence of successful Hamas ground organization on the PA side - Hamas has issued a call for uprising, hasn't it? Which in itself is a "dog bites man" bit of news, granted, but it's coming at a time when there's howling up in the woods
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Oct 10, 2023 19:15
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Perhaps decapitating babies and blowing people up are both morally dubious? So, uh, just like you said to me, I am going to need hard evidence of this because so far it's all been "IDF soldiers told me so." Edit: https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1711802752869740715 Huh, imagine that. It turns out Western media sucks, and you shouldn't believe it!
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Oct 10, 2023 19:16
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BUUNNI posted:You do realize that every single one of those dubious twitter accounts has obvious Zionist slants? https://www.foxnews.com/world/40-babies-some-beheaded-found-israel-soldiers-hamas-attacked-village https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-palestine-hamas-attack-hostages-gaza-strip-b2426936.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-massacred.html https://www.businessinsider.com/idf-says-hamas-decapitated-babies-in-israel-2023-10 Seyser Koze posted:No, this is when Cuba finally invaded Florida. Please save us from Desantis.
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Oct 10, 2023 19:21
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I can't speak for anyone else, but this is the crux of the issue for me, at least. I try to avoid following the news and social media, but whatever I do come across is either Likud and their various right-wing allies describing Palestinians as rabid animals who deserve to be culled, or nominally more progressive politicians unequivocally condemning the initial attacks and declaring their support for Israel, while pointedly ignoring any historical or current atrocities being perpetrated against Palestinians. I would agree with that. I'd also say I'm disheartened by the Ukraine-Israel axis of support I'm seeing more generally, and the corresponding Palestine-Russia axis, because when I look at the situation, the root cause of both conflicts is: get the gently caress out of other people's land! Stop oppressing them! Stop taking their poo poo! Zelenskyy is being a complete loving stooge with this poo poo, pretending Hamas's attack on Israel is more similar to Russia's attack on Ukraine than Russia's continued historical oppression of Ukraine (complete with made up historical bullshit) is to Israel's occupation of Palestine. I've lost a lot of respect for him, because it's clear it's just about realpolitik at this point.
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Oct 10, 2023 19:21
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Israel and especially the IDF have routinely spread lies and western media has routinely, without examination, reported on them as hard truth. Politicians will then issue public statements based upon these lies, also without examination. Knowing that it will stick into public opinion, and then when the quiet retractions are issued it does nothing to counter act that. There is an effort, often deliberate, sometimes through a deeply internalized delusion, to paint enemies of Israel and of America as literal demons, because somehow whatever they do actually do is not enough. They must be Satan himself, and the land has to wither and be seeded with salt under their step.
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Oct 10, 2023 19:27
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ummel posted:It's coming from IDF reports, so that's as good as you'll likely get at this point in the timeline. It's being reported in relatively major news sites, but it appears they all go back to IDF reports as the source. I'm linking these for context, not necessarily because I think they're good news sites. And yesterday, the IDF said there was wide spread rape, and the post form me just above yours is a retraction of said allegations. Stop believing the IDF. The people committing genocide are not to be trusted.
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Oct 10, 2023 19:30
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Meanwhile Shaun King has been posting the videos from the ground of dead babies in their fathers hands and the destruction of everything. Shits ugly on both sides.  https://www.instagram.com/shaunking/?hl=en
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Oct 10, 2023 19:33
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Biden just claimed rapes in his address but he may also not know what day it is
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Oct 10, 2023 19:34
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Willo567 posted:The article says that North Korea is preparing for the possibility of a surprise attack, at least whe you translate it online I’m still trying to find reliable sources other than social, but I’ve seen reports that Hamas received training from North Korean operatives in Malaysia that included operation of the paragliders that were used.
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Oct 10, 2023 19:35
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fool of sound posted:It’s both sidesism because Palestine is not a functional nation state. They are the victims of a slow rolling genocide. They have no meaningful international supporters to appeal to. They do not have the option or imperative to obey international law that their vastly superior oppressors ignore without consequence. They do not operate on level ethical ground. No one should have any objections to the basic principle of "everyone who commits war crimes should face justice for those war crimes". If that principle were being applied fairly and equally, then the Hamas gunmen should in fact face punishment for their crimes, along with the commanders and politicians who ordered those crimes. Just as Israeli soldiers, commanders, and politicians should face punishment for the similar crimes they've committed (and many more besides). Saying that war criminals on both sides should face consequences for those crimes isn't "both sidesism". Neither side is facing justice, though. Israel's war crimes and atrocities go largely ignored, and Hamas' war crimes and atrocities are simply used as an excuse to look the other way while Israel engages in collective punishment of the entire civilian population (another war crime). fool of sound posted:So my speculation about your response to slave revolts and resistance to apartheid were entirely accurate then. If someone's methods involve armed soldiers invading civilian neighborhoods without warning and shooting everyone who isn't on their side, then you should absolutely denounce those methods, regardless of what their cause is or what situation they've been placed into. It's important to understand the context and place the attacks in that context, rather than just belting out shortsighted denounciations, but that doesn't mean you should excuse it completely. It may be an atrocity they've been driven to commit by circumstances, but we should never forget that it's an atrocity. They're forced to do immoral things because of their circumstances, and that doesn't necessarily make them monsters. That doesn't mean that they (or we) should stop acknowledging that those things are immoral. They (and we!) shouldn't forget that these are regrettable tactics that should be avoided whenever possible. Sometimes they can't reasonably be avoided, and that should be acknowledged while also acknowledging that they absolutely should be avoided when possible. When you start imagining that this poo poo is actually good and fine and justified to do, then you end up like the IDF - who inherited much of their morality from Jewish resistance militias originally founded to defend the Jewish minority in Mandatory Palestine. Militias that had originally been formed as self-defense organizations to defend a minority group from oppression, riots, and pogroms ended up believing some of these very same justifications you're spouting. And as a result they sprouted offshoots like Irgun and Lehi that believed that literally any tactics were morally justified in pursuit of Jewish liberation, and carried out all sorts of atrocities under the belief that normal moral standards couldn't be applied to the struggle for freedom and independence. Ultimately, the justifications these groups came up as they were massacring entire villages in the name of "freedom" and "self-defense" continue to influence right-wing Israeli thought to this very day. Irgun and Lehi were absorbed into the IDF at its creation, and Irgun's political wing became the Herut party, which eventually became the core of the alliance of right-wing parties known as Likud. Irony Be My Shield posted:I thought maybe Hamas was deliberately trying to turn the entire strip into martyrs but no, turns out they're just collectively one of the stupidest organisations that has ever existed If you stop and think about it a minute, it's not hard to see why Hamas might be so surprised. The Palestinians have spent the better part of a century trying to get Westerners to give a poo poo about Israeli troops gunning down Palestinian civilians and bombing Palestinian residential areas in broad daylight. I can see how they might have gotten the impression that Westerners just don't give a poo poo about dead civilians.
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Oct 10, 2023 19:35
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FlapYoJacks posted:And yesterday, the IDF said there was wide spread rape, and the post form me just above yours is a retraction of said allegations. Stop believing the IDF. The people committing genocide are not to be trusted. Can this CNN dude be trusted? I don't know his work https://twitter.com/NeriaKraus/status/1711776823384711576 Honestly, I hope you're right because the pictures I've seen out there are really bad
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Oct 10, 2023 19:39
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Main Paineframe posted:No one should have any objections to the basic principle of "everyone who commits war crimes should face justice for those war crimes". If that principle were being applied fairly and equally, then the Hamas gunmen should in fact face punishment for their crimes, along with the commanders and politicians who ordered those crimes. Just as Israeli soldiers, commanders, and politicians should face punishment for the similar crimes they've committed (and many more besides). Saying that war criminals on both sides should face consequences for those crimes isn't "both sidesism". Well, you can't blame Israel, it's not like they've ever shown the capacity to try war criminals in a court and not simply bomb or assassinate them... right? I mean, when would that have happened? I think we all might have heard about it.
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Oct 10, 2023 19:39
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Feel like I need to get these thoughts and a few questions of my chest. I apologize if this comes in the middle of a discussion. The thread's way too fast. At the risk of Stepping In It, it feels like in the midst of atrocities commited historically by the IDF and then (in no way on the same scale) by groups like Hamas there's no way out of this cycle for the foreseeable future. This conversation has played out several times since before I was born and will likely play out again and again, likely until there is nothing of Palestine left, if this trajectory continues. Here's how I understand it. Israel's government will encroach, siege, and destroy in the name of security and self-determination, justified by the dream of a solidified Jewish state sovereignty after centuries of oppression from state and religious actors the world over. Groups like Hamas will, predictably from the horrific conditions from which they arose (conditions perpetuated by the Israeli government), retaliate and inflict horrific violence, giving Israel carte blanche to once again encroach, siege, and destroy, giving resistance groups carte blanche to lash back in what ways they feel to be justified. Ad infinitum. Netanyahu, Likud, and all the related Israeli hardliner supporters and factions perpetuate the conditions in which this misery continues. I would go as far as to say that the Palestinian states are not just open-air prisons, but slaughterhouses from which Netanyahu and his ilk may harvest political capital and power for when they most need it. It does not matter how many Israelis wish for peace. It does not matter how many Palestinians wish for peace. It does not matter how much I, you, or anyone outside of the region wish for peace. As long as these hardliner factions remain at the wheel, the conditions from which this violence and groups like Hamas rise will continue. They hold their hands on the vise currently crushing Palestine, and have the power to slam down the lever and end it if they so choose. With Israel's political environment the way it is, even if Netanyahu were to be stripped of power, it's likely hardliner elements will retain much of their power. My feeling is that it's not a question of "What must Israel or Palestine do?" but one of "What must the world do?" Entities like the USA and the EU don't do much to curb Likudnik bloodlust (partially due to geopolitical goals and partially, I suspect, due to heavy influence campaigns from the Netanyahu regime). Entities like Iran are happy to fund groups like Hamas and add fuel to the fire to further their own geopolitical goals. All in all, it does not feel like the conditions for peace are there from an international standpoint, either. Am I off about any of this? I suspect I'm missing a lot of nuance, or misreading things. I don't know much. I'm one trans Ukrainian Jewish (by heritage, not faith) lady who naturalized in America a long time ago and am living in relative comfort. I'm still pretty young, so I might not have much context. I'm sure many involved in this conflict would find folks like me distasteful at best or an outright affront to their beliefs at worst. I have very distant family in Israel. I have friends with folks from or still in Palestine. I'm disconnected from the violence in many ways, yet I can't help but despair at it all. My family and I are no strangers to being displaced by political upheaval and this miserable cycle has been spinning for longer than I've been alive. I don't know what I'm hoping to get with this post. I guess, I have a few questions. I hope to avoid coming off as flippant or bad-faith, but I don't know how else to approach this beyond continuing to stay silent: - What paths might there be to break the stranglehold Israel's hardliner factions have on their ability to set the tone and direction for the conflict? Is there a way for Israel's existence to be supported without giving resources to these elements? Can such a thing be done while also supporting Palestine's right to exist and stopping the genocide? - I can't help but think of what went down in Former Yugoslavia in the 90s. I know the conditions are far more different, but I cant shake the feeling there may be parallels. How did that get resolved, and what be taken from that conflict to apply to this one? - How much of this conflict is perperuated by religious factors? In an ideal pie-in-the-sky world, would a non-sectarian/secular government be a potential way to curb hardliner influence?
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Oct 10, 2023 19:39
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I don't believe the ridiculous baby beheading story nor the now-retracted rape story. However, questions of whether or not this or that unit did this or that war crime are optics matters that are irrelevant now that the conflict is joined in earnest again. There is no such thing as a clean war and there never will be. Pearl clutching about civilian collateral damage is a useless middle class affectation for people who have never had to struggle to survive. Optics has never mattered once blood is drawn and this will be no exception. Everyone's picked their side regardless of their actions and no one cares what it takes for their side to win. Morality is the first thing to go, by necessity. What I'm getting at here is that moral grandstanding is not only useless in terms of debate and discussion, but also very tedious and boring. Just openly state whose side you're on, maybe why if you must, and then you can get to arguing about how this or that news story means your side is winning. E: lol I forgot about the avatar (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 19:42
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kolby posted:Can this CNN dude be trusted? I don't know his work I don’t think that not hyperlinked disclaimer, which was attached to a Jonah Goldberg opinion column yesterday, is adequate evidence to conclude “rape didn’t occur” e: No rape story was retracted. This was a disclaimer attached to an opinion piece that referenced rape, saying that reports of rape had not been substantiated.
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Oct 10, 2023 19:42
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kolby posted:Can this CNN dude be trusted? I don't know his work Again, what is his source? He keeps saying "were." Clearly he is getting this info from the IDF.
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Oct 10, 2023 19:43
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FlapYoJacks posted:Again, what is his source? He keeps saying "were." Clearly he is getting this info from the IDF. He's literally there with the bodybags right behind him.
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Oct 10, 2023 19:50
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It’s probably fine to generallly expect the worst from both sides on this one.
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Oct 10, 2023 19:53
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Greetings. Due to the tremendous amount of reports generated by this thread taxing our moderation resources, it is now under martial law. All infractions will result in at least a day probation. See OP for recommendations on how to participate well and avoid punishment. For comments or questions about this policy, PM me.
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Oct 10, 2023 19:56
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Hey, all of you who've spent several days and several threads defending this fabulous act of "resistance", what part of it did you like most? The war rape? The slicing of children in half? The parading of bodies in Gaza to a cheering crowd? If you think this is such a great thing for Gaza and the world, get off your keyboard, arrange a one-way trip to Israel, and sneak over to the Gaza strip and present yourself to Hamas as a hostage. If you somehow survive the ordeal and aren't raped, murdered, and paraded in Gaza, you might do something actually significant to improve the goals of the fabulous resistance. Koos Group posted:Greetings. Due to the tremendous amount of reports generated by this thread taxing our moderation resources, it is now under martial law. All infractions will result in at least a day probation. See OP for recommendations on how to participate well and avoid punishment. For comments or questions about this policy, PM me. Every single one of these "pro-Palestinians", as well as the long overdue tankies, should be banned from these loving forums. It's a pox upon it that they are let to be here so long, and it's a pox upon you and your team for probating and banning people presenting real historical information that's not comfortable for Westerners and inconvenient to the Palestinian narrative. Don't bother with punishments, I'll be out momentarily. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 20:03
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ronya posted:- the West Bank still seems apathetic; news shows no big protests? It's hard to tell given that most of the reporters are paying attention to Gaza, that there's not much English-language Palestinian news in the first place, and that West Bank authorities have vested interests in discouraging sympathy and support for Hamas. However, it seems that Israeli forces have acted quickly to disrupt potential Palestinian movements in the West Bank. I'm seeing scattered reports of movement restrictions, mass arrests, and coming down hard on peaceful protests. It's also worth a look at the kind of stuff the Palestinian news sites are saying, just to see what a "quiet" day in the West Bank looks like. It does have to be taken with a grain of salt, given that Palestinian news sites writing English-language articles are very obviously writing for a foreign audience, but the kind of stuff they write about in general is pretty widely attested in more neutral news sources so I doubt it's complete fiction. https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/138022 (warning, this is the PA's official government-run news site) quote:AL-BIREH, Sunday, October 8, 2023 (WAFA) – Seven Palestinians were shot and injured, including two minors, during confrontations that broke out this evening across multiple areas in the occupied West Bank, said local and security sources. I can't independently confirm any of these specific incidents, but they all line up with well-known general practices of the IDF: disrupting peaceful protests with tear gas and bullets to the legs, armed incursions on refugee camps, and raids on the funerals of Palestinians killed by Israeli forces. It's easy to think that nothing is really happening in the Palestinian territories outside of these big events, but here's what a quiet afternoon in the Palestinian territories looks like (at least according to Palestinian state media writing for an English-language reader):  Even as the IDF is putting its full focus on Gaza, there's still violent incidents all over the West Bank, committed by both soldiers and settlers. Koos Group posted:Greetings. Due to the tremendous amount of reports generated by this thread taxing our moderation resources, it is now under martial law. All infractions will result in at least a day probation. See OP for recommendations on how to participate well and avoid punishment. For comments or questions about this policy, PM me. 
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Oct 10, 2023 20:04
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Koos Group posted:Greetings. Due to the tremendous amount of reports generated by this thread taxing our moderation resources, it is now under martial law. All infractions will result in at least a day probation. See OP for recommendations on how to participate well and avoid punishment. For comments or questions about this policy, PM me. That'll fix it! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 20:04
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Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/bodies-residents-militants-lie-grounds-ravaged-israeli-kibbutz-2023-10-10/ Warning for non-autoplay graphic content, there is a section in the video showing a room awash in blood and lots of bodies
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Oct 10, 2023 20:05
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Have the Palestinians ever made an attempt to find an alternative solution to their current situation? For example, petition the UN to revoke the iniitial Oslo accords and take over the territory as a UN protectorate, then bring in a peacekeeping force to kick out Hamas and hold new fair elections? Or for that matter Egypt wants Hamas gone, have they asked the Egyptians to do the same? What about restoring relations (since apparently everything pre-2006 is irrelevant given how some people here talk) with the other Arab nations to agree to accept the non-terrorist population as refugees? It's hard to imagine Isreal blocking people from leaving if some other country is actually willing to take them. For that matter have the Palestinians done anything to show they can be good non-terrorist housing neighbors? Seems weird that people put the entire onus on Isreal to somehow solve this problem while ignoring that Palestine, pre and post Hamas, has refused to even attempt to explore any other solution including pursuing the one compromise they got in place with the initial Oslo Accords.
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Oct 10, 2023 20:07
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nessin posted:Have the Palestinians ever made an attempt to find an alternative solution to their current situation? Yes, in 2018. It ended with Israeli snipers shooting to unarmed protestors and rest of the world pretending they didn't noticed.
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Oct 10, 2023 20:10
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https://twitter.com/IsraelRadar_com/status/1711816261947048126 Two million people live in those buildings, again, for the record. Half of them children.
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Oct 10, 2023 20:11
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nessin posted:Have the Palestinians ever made an attempt to find an alternative solution to their current situation? For example, petition the UN to revoke the iniitial Oslo accords and take over the territory as a UN protectorate, then bring in a peacekeeping force to kick out Hamas and hold new fair elections? Or for that matter Egypt wants Hamas gone, have they asked the Egyptians to do the same? What about restoring relations (since apparently everything pre-2006 is irrelevant given how some people here talk) with the other Arab nations to agree to accept the non-terrorist population as refugees? It's hard to imagine Isreal blocking people from leaving if some other country is actually willing to take them. For that matter have the Palestinians done anything to show they can be good non-terrorist housing neighbors? Seems weird that people put the entire onus on Isreal to somehow solve this problem while ignoring that Palestine, pre and post Hamas, has refused to even attempt to explore any other solution including pursuing the one compromise they got in place with the initial Oslo Accords. Yes. There have been many attempts made. Most other nations do not actually want Palestinian refugees and do the bare minimum to avoid an influx of refugees. Palestinians have attempted many different ways of peaceful protest. They almost always end up with violence being inflicted on them. Palestine also has precious little power in terms of actual capabilities nor international support.
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Oct 10, 2023 20:15
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Fister Roboto posted:No fight for liberation is ever going to be "clean". Oppression and subjugation literally dehumanizes people - it turns them into animals who have no choice but to lash out violently at the first opportunity they find. Very often that opportunity is towards people who are not directly responsible for their subjugation. And this is often a deliberate tactic on the part of the subjugator, to put innocent civilians in the direct line of fire, so that violence against them can be used to justify further oppression. "Palestinians are animals who have no choice but to lash out violently at the first opportunity they find." is a pretty awful take. You don't need to dehumanize them in the exact same way right-wing Israelis do to explain their actions. You are doing it to excuse indiscriminate killings they commit, the Israelis calling them the same thing are doing it to excuse killing Palestinians indiscriminately. Zulily Zoetrope posted:I can't speak for anyone else, but this is the crux of the issue for me, at least. I try to avoid following the news and social media, but whatever I do come across is either Likud and their various right-wing allies describing Palestinians as rabid animals who deserve to be culled, or nominally more progressive politicians unequivocally condemning the initial attacks and declaring their support for Israel, while pointedly ignoring any historical or current atrocities being perpetrated against Palestinians. Completely agreed with this. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 20:16
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U.S. announces that the American death toll is up to 14. At least 9 American hostages confirmed. Still dozens of Americans whose status is unconfirmed. Russian, Malaysian, and German deaths confirmed with suspected hostages as well. https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1711813022467981707
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Oct 10, 2023 20:19
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I mean, the "they are killing babies! trust us on this!!!" thing is also the literal, actual essence of blood libel so, y'know.  is dead. we have beaten it into a fine paste.
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Oct 10, 2023 20:20
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ImpAtom posted:Yes. There have been many attempts made. Most other nations do not actually want Palestinian refugees and do the bare minimum to avoid an influx of refugees. Palestinians have attempted many different ways of peaceful protest. They almost always end up with violence being inflicted on them. Palestine also has precious little power in terms of actual capabilities nor international support. I honestly don't see how this answers my questions. Direct violence against innocent Palestinians is obviously almost universally the fault of Isreal, but how is the rest of it Isreal's fault and why isn't Palestine responsible for at least part of it? Szarrukin posted:Yes, in 2018. It ended with Israeli snipers shooting to unarmed protestors and rest of the world pretending they didn't noticed. I'd argue that a border protest doesn't count as any sort of actual action, even a failed one. I'm looking for actual examples of appealing through a process that actually could get results even if they don't work out. Like where is a formal request submitted to the UN, or anywhere? What does it say?
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Oct 10, 2023 20:23
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Main Paineframe posted:It's hard to tell given that most of the reporters are paying attention to Gaza, that there's not much English-language Palestinian news in the first place, and that West Bank authorities have vested interests in discouraging sympathy and support for Hamas. Yes, but Israel has committed itself as an occupying force for vast swathe of the rural West Bank, so violent conflicts with the non-consenting policed are inevitable (not being in that role was, of course, the point of unilateral disengagement once upon a time). My question is more whether the PA remains a politically viable alternative that Israel can point to, so big protests (that would change the security situation substantially), especially in the PA-administered cities, is what would be really indicative of the future direction of I/P as the current crisis wears on The majority of the population in the West Bank live in the PA-administered enclaves, so presumably incidents with PA security forces is what we should look for
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Oct 10, 2023 20:27
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:U.S. announces that the American death toll is up to 14. While I have no reason to doubt this particular information, this twitter user is well-known for being a) totally unconcerned with verifying information before posting, e.g.: https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1710531271481254292 b) extremely racist: https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1710721748247744607
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Oct 10, 2023 20:28
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nessin posted:What about restoring relations (since apparently everything pre-2006 is irrelevant given how some people here talk) with the other Arab nations to agree to accept the non-terrorist population as refugees? It's hard to imagine Isreal blocking people from leaving if some other country is actually willing to take them. What you're describing here is ethnic cleansing, which is a non-starter for a lot of reasons, but the biggest political one is that none of their neighbors want to be responsible for millions of refugees.
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Oct 10, 2023 20:30
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nessin posted:I honestly don't see how this answers my questions. Direct violence against innocent Palestinians is obviously almost universally the fault of Isreal, but how is the rest of it Isreal's fault and why isn't Palestine responsible for at least part of it? There were some previous attempts to get neighboring Arab countries to take in Palestinian refugees. Jordan let in a few, but didn't want to take many. Most of the other countries did not want to take in any refugees. There are periodic plans to try and get many of the Palestinians to get refugee status in neighboring countries, but the neighboring countries don't want an influx of refugees. Palestine applied for full recognition to the U.N. in the 60's, but was denied. They were admitted as a member, but not a recognized country. They have periodically tried to get full recognition at the U.N. (mostly for symbolic reasons), but the U.S. generally vetoes it. Also, the U.N. has certain requirements to be recognized as a country and Palestine's lack of control over its own borders and disputed government has caused issues with that path. The U.N. has stepped in a few times to guarantee relief transport or facilitate negotiations, but they can't invade Israel or enforce a border. smug n stuff posted:While I have no reason to doubt this particular information, this twitter user is well-known for being a) totally unconcerned with verifying information before posting, e.g.: Biden and the State Department also made the announcement during his speech just a few minutes ago. Blinken is going to Israel to attempt to get the American hostages released and as a show of support for Israel. https://twitter.com/samstein/status/1711822902608183390
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Oct 10, 2023 20:31
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https://twitter.com/IsraelRadar_com/status/1711816261947048126 What would we be looking at if this sort of sentiment comes to pass, especially if it is happening concurrently with a blockade of food, water and power? I cant imagine that the baseline carrying capacity of the Gaza Strip is 2 million people, given the low usability of their groundwater, that fuel shortages will impact desalinization, and the fact that leveling every building is going to affect all preexisting stockpiles of supplies. A siege is not going to need to be many weeks long to be extremely lethal.
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Oct 10, 2023 20:34
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Alchenar posted:He's literally there with the bodybags right behind him. The IDF is literally saying they have no information confirming allegations that ‘Hamas beheaded babies’ https://twitter.com/anadoluagency/status/1711812910035407131 However, the IDF has killed a LOT of children: https://twitter.com/DCIPalestine/status/1711791683694739847 Also, the woman that HAMAS supposedly killed and raped? At a hospital in Palestine and still alive. If the IDF hasn't killed her yet: https://twitter.com/conzmoleman/status/1711809444693045284
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Oct 10, 2023 20:34
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nessin posted:I honestly don't see how this answers my questions. Direct violence against innocent Palestinians is obviously almost universally the fault of Isreal, but how is the rest of it Isreal's fault and why isn't Palestine responsible for at least part of it? There's plenty of reporting on problems with the US veto re: the UN & Palestine if you want to find out more. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/19/a-history-of-the-us-blocking-un-resolutions-against-israel
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Oct 10, 2023 20:37
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