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Mischievous Mink posted:Have you seen the conditions they're operating under? This sounds very plausible to me, I couldn't imagine how hard it is doing that work. Unimaginable horror. I'm really confused by your confidence. In what world are they able to completely clear a single big apartment building and have found all survivors and dead, let alone dozens, in such little time? While still being barraged and assaulted, with no electricity, no water. I think you're absolutely right. There's no electricity in the strip, except whatever generator power that lasts while there's fuel. Israel said it will bomb any supply trucks coming in from Rafah (and has indeed bombed the crossing more than once). There's no water coming in and >97% of Gaza's own water is unfit for human consumption. By any account, the bombing Gazans are seeing is the heaviest they've ever seen. (I don't think any of the below is :nsfw: but always be cautious when clicking on videos or going to threads) When you see, for example, the south of Gaza https://x.com/Rushdibbc/status/1711658772056113647?s=20 Or the al-Rimal neighbourhood https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1711696723125444964 You can see how the strike is. There are *plenty* of accounts of no-knocks or warnings received. People are definitely dying. Ghassan Abu Sitta, a hero from Lebanon, who, whenever Israel starts up its war crimes engine, travels from Lebanon into Gaza to operate on torn flesh and missing limbs, had this to say: https://twitter.com/GhassanAbuSitt1/status/1711686979874668874 MAP had released all of its emergency stocks and already suggested horrific conditions two days ago: https://x.com/mehdirhasan/status/1711112418485506280?s=20 Meanwhile, it's likely that at least 10% of the population has been displaced, so the number of people working on digging through rubble (and there's so much of it) is lower. I think it's absolutely probable that, not only have most of the dead not yet been found, but that those who are dead *and* found are not yet accurately counted and that we're likely to see a great deal more deaths from preventable infections and treatable traumas, due to lack of supplies. So the poster you're responding to should probably sit back and contemplate the situation a while.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:12
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mannerup posted:do you have a point besides making up fake quotes from me to support your argument? Do you believe that being a non-state actor gives you impunity to commit atrocities on civilians? I believe that being a people being genocided or enslaved should not be expected to adhere to morality imposed on them by people living in safety and comfort during their struggles against their oppressors. I also believe that anyone who doesn't at least agree that oppressed peoples' resistance has relaxed moral guidelines then they're only paying lip service to the idea of liberation.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:12
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Raiad posted:The United States military, organized by the wealthiest country on the planet and giving several times the funding of the next several militaries below it, can't keep its soldiers from raping its own servicewomen, let alone anyone else. Or raping civilians overseas in bases and across war zones as well.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:17
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Comparing Hamas to Nat Turner or the ANC is just giving a big thumbs-up to the Israeli operation to make Hamas the only authority in Gaza. Of course Hamas is a violent right-wing militia with basically no concept of "civilian"," that's why they were picked to run Gaza.
Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 17:19
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 17:20
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fool of sound posted:I believe that being a people being genocided or enslaved should not be expected to adhere to morality imposed on them by people living in safety and comfort during their struggles against their oppressors. I also believe that anyone who doesn't at least agree that oppressed peoples' resistance has relaxed moral guidelines then they're only paying lip service to the idea of liberation. So with these relaxed moral guidelines rape and sexual assault and child killing and the killing of fleeing civilians is now justified?
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Oct 10, 2023 17:20
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Madkal posted:So with these relaxed moral guidelines rape and sexual assault and child killing and the killing of fleeing civilians is now justified? No, but these actions shouldn't be treated as a green light to go ham on retaliation like they do in other conflicts, which I believe is the point ultimately being made here.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:23
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mannerup posted:I fundamentally disagree with your position that Palestinians/Hamas/Etc. have impunity to commit atrocities against civilians, war crimes and crimes against humanity because those actions serve the purpose of 'liberation' Why does Israel?
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Oct 10, 2023 17:25
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mannerup posted:I fundamentally disagree with your position that Palestinians/Hamas/Etc. have impunity to commit atrocities against civilians, war crimes and crimes against humanity because those actions serve the purpose of 'liberation' So my speculation about your response to slave revolts and resistance to apartheid were entirely accurate then. Madkal posted:So with these relaxed moral guidelines rape and sexual assault and child killing and the killing of fleeing civilians is now justified? It's not really so much a carte blanche justification so much as an understanding that liberation movements will do terrible things sometimes due to a lack of time, capability, and/or organization, and it's not a reason to denounce their cause or methods.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:28
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Hamas does not have impunity to commit war crimes: they were always heavily punished for it (and for any kind of resistance they dare anyway, with war crimes or not), both military and diplomatically Israel, at the other hand, does have total impunity, both military and diplomatically, to commit any kind of war crime and crimes against humanity with no consequence, unless you count hashtags as consequences
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Oct 10, 2023 17:32
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fool of sound posted:So my speculation about your response to slave revolts and resistance to apartheid were entirely accurate then. You don't have to denounce a cause because some people who say they support the same cause do terrible things. I do think you are getting into a weird and dangerous place when you say that you can't denounce rape, killing 1,000 civilians, or beheading babies because you are unable to denounce any methods used by anyone who says they are a part of a cause you support.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:33
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Fool of Sound, do you think it's impossible for Hamas to act immorally, or that it's possible but (certain/privileged/all) people shouldn't talk about it because it just serves to validate Israeli repression?
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Oct 10, 2023 17:33
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 17:33
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fool of sound posted:So my speculation about your response to slave revolts and resistance to apartheid were entirely accurate then. You can absolutely denounce someone's methods even if you believe in their cause. You don't have to defend a group killing a bunch of kids because they believe in what you believe in. If you do you are just justifying rape and murder. You do know that there are a lot of Palestinians who aren't okay with killing children and parading naked women as trophies. Perhaps support them instead of an organization seeking to kill as many people as possible
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Oct 10, 2023 17:35
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There is a dark irony to the fact that Hamas' actions are more viscerally horrifying which causes this outcry of how they're responding wrong because they lack the technology to level an entire apartment building, multiple families dead at a time.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:35
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:According to AJ, Hamas was surprised about how big the backlash was to their initial attack and is trying to do damage control and break the perception that they are indiscriminately targeting civilians. They are concerned that the backlash may have galvanized people to send more aid to Israel and given Israel permission to go even farther in its retaliation.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:36
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:You don't have to denounce a cause because some people who say they support the same cause do terrible things. I do think you are getting into a weird and dangerous place when you say that you can't denounce rape, killing 1,000 civilians, or beheading babies because you are unable to denounce any methods used by anyone who says they are a part of a cause you support. I think you're interpreting Fool of Sound's arguments in a way that supports your pro-Israel bias. He has never said that those actions shouldn't be denounced; instead, at least from my interpretation, it is that you cannot reasonably expect a heavily tortured, subjugated, imprisoned and abused populace to have 100% rational actors when a time comes for them to try and demonstrate resistance. Ideally, said "bad actors" could be weeded out beforehand, but in all likelihood, when ever there has been a mass offensive in human history, those bad actors still found a way to get out, or have hidden their true intent only to reveal it later. US military personnel raped women in the UK and across Western Europe up to and including Germany, during WWII. That was a horrible atrocity, and it never should have occurred, but when you have thousands or hundreds of thousands of people in combat, it's impossible to expect that 100% will be morally and ethically good. And that was with a well-treated, well-nourished, well-provisioned fighting force. Avoiding such actions should always be the goal, but humans are complicated, and it'll always be impossible to completely root out. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Civilized Fishbot posted:Fool of Sound, do you think it's impossible for Hamas to act immorally, or that it's possible but (certain/privileged/all) people shouldn't talk about it because it just serves to validate Israeli repression? That is not at all what he seemed to be indicating. See above. mannerup posted:just as accurate as my speculation that you take some smug self-righteous satisfaction from pointing out how Cool and Good atrocities against civilians are because it happened to people you believe are devoid of humanity and deserved every inhumane action towards them Why don't you address his actual pointes, instead of strawmanning off?
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Oct 10, 2023 17:41
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Gumball Gumption posted:There is a dark irony to the fact that Hamas' actions are more viscerally horrifying which causes this outcry of how they're responding wrong because they lack the technology to level an entire apartment building, multiple families dead at a time. Perhaps decapitating babies and blowing people up are both morally dubious? It has been a while since I last did any work with supranational law, but I don't think there is a war crimes exemption if you think the other person really deserves it.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:43
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 17:44
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Fool of Sound, do you think it's impossible for Hamas to act immorally, or that it's possible but (certain/privileged/all) people shouldn't talk about it because it just serves to validate Israeli repression? They can certainly act immorally by the standards of people with the luxury of safety, comfort, and some degree of freedom. I think it would be closer to say that I believe people under genocide, slavery, or apartheid act under suspended moral guidelines because of the severity and urgency of their situation. This doesn't mean that any given horrible act is justified, it means passing judgement on them at all is fraught because of the context surrounding them. mannerup posted:the point where he made up fake quotes from me with the intention of painting me as somebody who would have supported slavery and apartheid because I had the audacity to categorically state that atrocities against civilians, war crimes and crimes against humanity are morally indefensible? The specific historical events that I chose also involved the murder of civilians. Do you think that Nat Turner's rebellion was indefensible? fool of sound fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 17:44
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Perhaps decapitating babies and blowing people up are both morally dubious? Very "I love pancakes" "oh so you hate waffles" interpretation. They are both morally wrong. One is a successful genocide. Mind you morals have never mattered in international geopolitics.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:46
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Perhaps decapitating babies and blowing people up are both morally dubious? It is not a bad or weird thing to point out that only one of these groups doing the baby murdering has the full backing and support of virtually every wealthy nation in the world.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:52
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fool of sound posted:They can certainly act immorally by the standards of people with the luxury of safety, comfort, and some degree of freedom. I think it would be closer to say that I believe people under genocide, slavery, or apartheid act under suspended moral guidelines because of the severity and urgency of their situation. This doesn't mean that any given horrible act is justified, it means passing judgement on them at all is fraught because of the context surrounding them. If you are willing to paint with a broad stroke that all rebellions are the same and good and all actions are justifiable I ask again if you think that what ISIL does or what the Lord's Resistance Army does is defensible.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:52
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If Iran is at war with Israel for reals why not just send troops and armor and heavy weapons to Gaza? Stuff that the west does all the time.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:53
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Shaocaholica posted:If Iran is at war with Israel for reals why not just send troops and armor and heavy weapons to Gaza? Because at some point Israel would get out the canned sunshine.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:53
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 17:54
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Gumball Gumption posted:Very "I love pancakes" "oh so you hate waffles" interpretation. It is literally the opposite. If something is a war crime, then it doesn't stop being a war crime if someone you like does it. You can fully support the cause of Palestinian independence without bending over backwards to downplay decapitating children or gunning down 260 civilians at a concert trying to flee. It just comes off as unhinged, especially when doing things like that actually hurts the cause and has no strategic or military value. It doesn't even make sense as a completely realpolitik "morality doesn't exist in international relations" strategic necessity.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:55
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It is literally the opposite. If something is a war crime, then it doesn't stop being a war crime if someone you like does it. You can fully support the cause of Palestinian independence without bending over backwards to downplay decapitating children or gunning down 260 civilians at a concert trying to flee. It just comes off as unhinged, especially when doing things like that actually hurts the cause and has no strategic or military value. It doesn't even make sense as a completely realpolitik "morality doesn't exist in international relations" strategic necessity. You're downplaying a genocide.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:56
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fool of sound posted:So my speculation about your response to slave revolts and resistance to apartheid were entirely accurate then.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:56
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mannerup posted:you contradicted yourself with these two statements, if moral guidelines are suspended then you are saying those actions become permissible and cannot have judgement cast on them Permissible and justified do not imply the same level of endorsement. The former means "I will not object in this case", the latter means "I affirmatively think this is a good tactic". mannerup posted:atrocities committed against civilians, war crimes and crimes against humanity are morally indefensible, go ahead and plug in whatever historical event you want to catch me in some kind of gotcha So the answer is yes, you think that slave revolts were indefensible. Good to know where you stand. Lampsacus posted:Well I've made some terrible posts on the internet but I've never argued against denouncing rape. gently caress you and all other rape apologists. Sexual assault is a consequence of war, not a tactic. You might as well call me a killing and maiming people apologist. fool of sound fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 17:57
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Why didn't Nat Turner consider voting or hiring a better PR firm?
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Oct 10, 2023 17:59
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I think there's a visceral repulsion about low-tech violence like simply cutting someone's head off. But at the end of the day, if that happens to one civilian on one side, and one civilian on the other sides dies in hospital due to lack of available treatment after receiving full-body burns that couldn't be properly disinfected, because their apartment building was bombed by expensive laser-guided bombs after there was a report a Hamas member was taking a poo poo in the downstairs john, ultimately it doesn't matter. In each case, civilian lives were lost due to deliberate action. Both are indefensible. But the international community has been all too willing to ignore the latter, or even praise it as Israel's oft-mentioned "right to defend itself, while the former is used to justify the latter. And ultimately, a huge part of it comes down to who you personally identify with. Normal Finkelstein, posted upthread, is a Jewish man who identifies the Palestinians and particularly those in Gaza, with his parents who were survivors of Nazi concentration camps, and their families who perished there. As a result, he goes much further in his invective than even I feel comfortable with. Many North Americans and Europeans will instead identify strongly with the Israelis -- possibly family and friends, and therefore feel that Israel's right to defend itself again justifies collateral damage. Many Jewish people will see this particular act by Hamas as an attack on Jewish people and Judaism in general, and react with not-unjustified fear and anger. At the end of the day, does that really matter? Civilians are dying and they shouldn't be dying, there is no need for them to die.
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Oct 10, 2023 18:02
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No fight for liberation is ever going to be "clean". Oppression and subjugation literally dehumanizes people - it turns them into animals who have no choice but to lash out violently at the first opportunity they find. Very often that opportunity is towards people who are not directly responsible for their subjugation. And this is often a deliberate tactic on the part of the subjugator, to put innocent civilians in the direct line of fire, so that violence against them can be used to justify further oppression. If you find that you can only support a subjugated peoples' right to fight back against their subjugator only if the fight remains "clean" - that they never kill civilians or commit terrorism or atrocities - then you were never on their side to begin with. The world simply doesn't work that way. It is complicated and messy, and you can't expect it to fit into a neat little moral paradigm. You don't have to celebrate or condone the rave massacre. But you should reflect on whether or not your anger over it eclipses whatever lip service you give to the horrific atrocities that Israel commits on a daily basis - atrocities that are so commonplace that they have become "normal".
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Oct 10, 2023 18:02
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 18:04
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fool of sound posted:Sexual assault is a consequence of war, not a tactic. It's important to realize that this is not 100% true in all cases. Rape is absolutely used as a tactic in war. It been forever and it will be forever. We cannot make the distinction in this current war because we lack evidence. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wartime_sexual_violence
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Oct 10, 2023 18:05
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I thought maybe Hamas was deliberately trying to turn the entire strip into martyrs but no, turns out they're just collectively one of the stupidest organisations that has ever existed I think the term I saw on Twitter “catastrophic success” seems to capture Hamas’ moment here
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Oct 10, 2023 18:05
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Perhaps decapitating babies and blowing people up are both morally dubious? Than surely this applies to Israel's actions? Blockading 2 million people from food water and power and leveling entire city blocks is going to kill far more babies. Also whats the evidence for any of this, is it just IDF sources saying that "yah that hospital was a HYDRA command post", and people are just believing it full stop? Doesn't concerted military action by a state have a lot more responsibility behind it than individual actions of poorly trained soldiers? Has there come to light a Hamas training manual on 'how to rape and kill babies most effectively in the current geopolitical climate'? Bombing and Blockading are government-level policies being enacted and admitted and in full technicolor display live on camera by a state much larger, much more powerful, and supported by 'the global consensus' than their enemy is. The atrocities being committed by Hamas are just much more poorly sourced, especially in regard to the breadth that they are occurring on, and any sourcing from the IDF should obviously not be trusted at all, as they are currently doing an ethnic cleanse of Hamas's home territory, and are not particularly objective. What atrocities specifically happened, and how many of them happened due to Hamas's assault, and where is the non IDF sourcing, or at least something less obviously wildly biased. The degree to which this 'Hamas is a wild band of savages, more animal than human, indiscriminately raping our women and bisecting our babies in their cribs' can be considered accurate does depend on the order of magnitude on which these atrocities are occurring.
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Oct 10, 2023 18:06
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Fister Roboto posted:No fight for liberation is ever going to be "clean". Oppression and subjugation literally dehumanizes people - it turns them into animals who have no choice but to lash out violently at the first opportunity they find. Very often that opportunity is towards people who are not directly responsible for their subjugation. And this is often a deliberate tactic on the part of the subjugator, to put innocent civilians in the direct line of fire, so that violence against them can be used to justify further oppression. It's not a binary of "clean or unclean" situation. Nobody is arguing that the Palestinians have to maintain 100% "cleanliness" for their goals to be legitimate. It is that Hamas is being conflated with Palestinians in general and people are defending horrific actions that have no strategic or military value and actively hurt the cause. In what way does decapitating 40 infants and piling them in a mass grave advance those goals? Or gunning down a record number of civilians in the back at a music festival? Not only is it a literal warcrime, but it is a warcrime for no reason. It is the kind of thing that people opposed to the goals of Palestinian independence love to see because it unambiguously hurts those goals with no upside whatsoever. Even if you are an a completely amoral robot who is willing to commit any atrocity to achieve your goal, then those actions are terrible and counter-productive. celadon posted:Than surely this applies to Israel's actions? Blockading 2 million people from food water and power and leveling entire city blocks is going to kill far more babies. Yes, you cracked it. Both of those are very bad things!
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Oct 10, 2023 18:07
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mannerup posted:to use your 'permissible' and 'justified' level of endorsement with your grotesque comment on sexual assault, you are fine with people not objecting to individuals sexually assaulting people, but are against affirmatively thinking sexually assaulting people is a good tactic Ok guy who thinks slave rebellions are indefensible even as slaveowners regularly raped their slaves. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 18:08
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:beheading babies Whoa, source?
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