Israel/Palestine

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(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

zer0spunk: Nov 6, 2000; devil never even lived

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

At Press Conference right now:

U.S. State Department says that Iran provided advanced training to some members of Hamas who were involved in the attacks and provided generic funding and weapons for the group, but initial intelligence suggests that Iran was surprised by the attack and not directly involved in planning or executing it.

Iran provided roughly $100 million to Hamas this past year, but didn't earmark any of it specifically for the attack as far as U.S. intelligence is aware.

I'm surprised they don't just say they planned it too, like it's too extreme for them or something. If you fund it, and celebrate it:

quote:

ran�s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, suggested on Tuesday that Iran was not behind the incursion in Israel, while praising what he called Israel�s �irreparable� military and intelligence defeat.

�We kiss the foreheads and arms of the resourceful and intelligent designers� of the attack, he said in his first televised speech since Palestinian gunmen launched a devastating cross-border assault from Gaza on Saturday.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/world/middleeast/iran-israel-hamas-attacks.html

Then what does taking credit matter, it won't trigger US action either way.

I guess some part of me finds the idea of some higher-up in the IRGC being like "that's a bit much even for my taste" refreshing?

# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:10

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# ? May 10, 2024 15:50

Gumball Gumption: Jan 7, 2012

zer0spunk posted:

I'm surprised they don't just say they planned it too, like it's too extreme for them or something. If you fund it, and celebrate it:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/world/middleeast/iran-israel-hamas-attacks.html

Then what does taking credit matter, it won't trigger US action either way.

I guess some part of me finds the idea of some higher-up in the IRGC being like "that's a bit much even for my taste" refreshing?

I think they're literally just saying they did not plan it. Funding and celebrating is not planning. You're reading into it and applying personal motives that reinforce what you already think.

# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:15

Failed Imagineer: Sep 22, 2018

https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1582630271287021570?t=Vsb6g7vb_N-Ph1cqAy3Fkw&s=19

Heh.

:smith:

# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:21

DelilahFlowers: Jan 10, 2020

Failed Imagineer posted:

https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1582630271287021570?t=Vsb6g7vb_N-Ph1cqAy3Fkw&s=19

Heh.

War crimes for thee, not for me

# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:23

Count Roland: Oct 6, 2013

I think neither the US nor Iran are ready for a full scale war right now and are therefore not inclined to pour gas on this ~~fire~~ ~~bonfire~~ raging inferno.

Once Israel goes into the Strip (or whatever big move is coming) then positions may change again.

# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:23

B B: Dec 1, 2005

Failed Imagineer posted:

https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1582630271287021570?t=Vsb6g7vb_N-Ph1cqAy3Fkw&s=19

Heh.

The U.S. is currently unwilling to encourage Israel to not starve and slaughter people:

https://twitter.com/samhusseini/status/1712072059830853872

# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:27

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

NYT has an article up now about the recent U.S. intelligence announcement with more details:

quote:

Early Intelligence Shows Hamas Attack Surprised Iranian Leaders, U.S. Says

The information has fueled doubts in the United States that Iran, a longtime supporter of the Palestinian militant group, played a direct role in planning the assault in Israel.

The United States has collected multiple pieces of intelligence that show that key Iranian leaders were surprised by the Hamas attack in Israel, information that has fueled U.S. doubts that Iran played a direct role in planning the assault, according to several American officials.

The United States, Israel and key regional allies have not found evidence that Iran directly helped plan the attack, according to the U.S. officials, an Israeli official and another official in the Middle East.

While the U.S. officials would not identify the Iranian officials who expressed surprise at the attack, they said the Iranian officials were people who typically would be aware of operations involving the Quds Force, Iran�s paramilitary arm that supports and works with proxy forces.

U.S. officials said the intelligence investigation was continuing and could turn up evidence that Iran or other states were directly involved in the Hamas operation. Senior officials said they were keeping an open mind, reviewing old intelligence reports and looking for new information.

Iran has provided large numbers of weapons and support to Hamas over many years. U.S. officials have made clear that they believe this makes Tehran broadly complicit in the attack. But that was a different matter than direct knowledge and involvement, they said.

Morgan Muir, a senior U.S. intelligence official, told members of Congress in a briefing on Tuesday that there was no direct link between Iran and the Hamas attack, U.S. officials said. Mr. Muir provided few details but told lawmakers that U.S. agencies had intelligence contradicting assertions that Iran had helped plan the attack.

The United States and its allies regularly track and monitor meetings between Quds Force leaders and their proxies and allies, including Hamas. But officials say there is no evidence so far that those meetings were used to plan the attack in Israel. While officials concede that there could have been other secret meetings that Western intelligence did not track, for now they have found no evidence of such meetings.

The officials spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the intelligence. The American officials requested that The New York Times not report the means of collection to protect sources and methods.

Jake Sullivan, the national security adviser, said on Tuesday that agencies had not collected intelligence about direct Iranian involvement in the attack, which began on Saturday.

Officials said Mr. Sullivan�s remarks reflected the intelligence collected so far, which did not point to direct involvement by Iran.

�We have said since the beginning: Iran is complicit in this attack in a broad sense because they have provided the lion�s share of the funding for the military arm of Hamas,� he said. �They have provided training, they have provided capabilities.�

Mr. Sullivan said that the United States would continue to investigate Iran�s role and knowledge of the attack. U.S. officials said that intelligence agencies were reviewing previously collected material and seeking new sources of information to better understand Iran�s knowledge and actions.

Iran has spent years providing funding and military supplies to Hamas. Much of the components Hamas uses to build rockets, for example, come from Iran before being smuggled through the Sinai Peninsula and into underground tunnels leading into Gaza. Those components are then assembled into rockets and missiles in secret locations inside Gaza.

President Biden is facing fierce criticism from some members of the Republican Party, including candidates for president, who accuse the administration of being soft on Iran. The Biden administration has been trying unsuccessfully to revive a nuclear deal with Iran and recently negotiated a deal for the release of prisoners. In exchange, Iran gained access to $6 billion in restricted oil revenues for humanitarian purposes.

Former President Donald J. Trump and other Republicans tried to cast blame on Mr. Biden, saying that those funds helped to finance the assault. But that $6 billion is not U.S. taxpayer money, as Mr. Trump and others, falsely stated. Nor is there evidence that the money, which officials have said is subject to Treasury Department oversight, was used to fund the attacks.

Treasury Secretary Janet L. Yellen did not rule out the possibility of freezing the $6 billion in Iranian funds if it were determined that the country was involved in the attack by Hamas. Ms. Yellen said the funds had not yet been touched.

The United States moved an aircraft carrier to the region, a step meant to deter Iran or its proxies from opening another front in the wake of the assault.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/11/us/politics/iran-israel-gaza-hamas-us-intelligence.html

# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:27

zer0spunk: Nov 6, 2000; devil never even lived

Count Roland posted:

Once Israel goes into the Strip (or whatever big move is coming) then positions may change again.

That is what's next, this thread moves fast so I don't know if this stuff was covered or not.

- 300,000 reservists are called up
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/10/israel-military-draft-reservists/

-evacuation of the areas nearby the strip
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-evacuates-civilians-from-gaza-area-towns-as-forces-scour-for-remaining-gunmen/

I wish I could find the article that gave the figure, but it was saying 25,000 "militants" between all the factions in gaza for context, but embedded in the population, not in uniforms, out in their own turf..it usually ends up bloody when they fight inside gaza, and this time there's this massive grudge going in..not good

zer0spunk fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Oct 11, 2023

# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:34

DelilahFlowers: Jan 10, 2020

https://twitter.com/GhassanAbuSitt1/status/1711996286621061432?t=khQT6knGSPOPm0IqC0Jhxg&s=19

Just absolute barbarity being inflicted upon palestine.

# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:35

ummel: Jun 17, 2002; <3 Lowtax; Fun Shoe

celadon posted:

https://www.businessinsider.com/idf-says-wont-back-up-beheaded-babies-disrespectful-2023-10

I'm not super well versed on this sort of thing but it seems like a pretty interesting situation where you can make extreme claims about the inhuman savagery of your enemy that are repeated wholesale by every stenographer employed by the media, and then claim its disrespectful to the dead to actually investigate any such claims. How exactly is one supposed to take this, and would it be wise to take claims made by an army about the barbarism of its enemy with a critical eye?

quote:

Laura Cellier, an i24NEWS news anchor, said in a post Wednesday that "we stand firmly behind our reporters." She said they were "told by 3 separate IDF officials that around 40 babies & small children were murdered in Kfar Aza, some burned, some beheaded."

CBS News later reported that Israeli body-recovery teams had discovered beheaded babies and children in kibbutzim in southern Israel.

CBS also reported that Yossi Landau, the head of operations for the southern region of Zaka, Israel's volunteer emergency response organization, told the outlet on Wednesday that he had personally seen beheaded babies among the dead.

From that article. It's not just IDF saying it, fwiw. That's why CBS published. It doesn't make anyone more confident in any of the information by blanket denying any further investigation. But would IDF do a post mortem investigation? Or would that be another agency? I'm not familiar with how Israel would handle this (if they even chose to do so).

# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:40

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

The only reason the Rafah border crossing (the one and only border crossing on Gaza's border with Egypt) is closed right now is because Israel bombed it several times yesterday and issued a threat to Egypt that they'd bomb any aid or supplies that might come through the border.

In any case, it's not like there's a huge wave of Palestinians flocking to the border begging to be let through right now. The IDF has called for Gazans to flee to Egypt, but there doesn't seem to have been many people following that advice so far - which is probably good, given that the IDF bombed the crossing after saying that. Egypt is rejecting Israeli/American calls for Egypt to open up for a mass exodus of Palestinians, yes. But Israel is rejecting Egypt's calls for Israel to allow them to send in humanitarian aid so that the population doesn't have to become refugees, so why is Egypt the primary villain here?

We can argue about whether Egypt is doing enough to save the victims of Israeli ethnic cleansing, but it's a rather bizarre conversation to have when the world is overwhelmingly on the side of the country doing the ethnic cleansing. It almost feels like people are acting as if no one except Hamas and Egypt have any agency - that indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas by Israel is as inevitable as the sun rising in the east, and that the only thing that can possibly be done to save Palestinian lives is for Egypt to take the refugees.

Rogue AI Goddess posted:

Opening borders to refugees fleeing from extermination at the hands of a genocidal regime is always humane and morally right. If you are concerned that doing so would be playing into the exterminator's hands, consider that it will also enable you to apply sanctions and other pressure tactics to the regime in question without the brunt of them being redirected to the oppressed people.

To use the aforementioned historical example, if the US accepted SS St Louis, they would not only keep the Jewish refugees safe from the Nazis but also protect them from the bombs that the US proceeded to drop on the Nazis.

The big issue in this comparison is that neither the US nor most of the rest of the world have any intention of taking any sort of action against Israel for this. America and Europe are actively supporting this destruction, and Israel's immediate neighbors can't enforce meaningful sanctions by themselves. Moreover, Egypt shares a land border with Gaza and therefore could supply the population directly...if not for the fact that Israel is openly threatening to bomb their aid convoys.

Before making Holocaust analogies, consider how the Holocaust ended. Because remember, it didn't end with the Jews being subservient and loyal to the Nazis in hopes of convincing Hitler to let them off. It ended with a multinational coalition invading the country that perpetrated the Holocaust, liberating the concentration camps by force, and executing the leaders who ordered and carried out the Holocaust. If this was really like WWII, then we shouldn't just be asking Egypt to accept refugees - we should be sending them to send an army to liberate Gaza. But if they did that, they'd be international pariahs.

# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:41

Failed Imagineer: Sep 22, 2018

Hmm some basic recognition of hypocrisy by at least one EU leader.

https://twitter.com/thejournal_ie/status/1712081528627290324?t=Di5SffhIUT-CnfQ7Ew587w&s=19

Fucken Israel, got me nodding approvingly at my country's dickhead neolib leader

# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:42

B B: Dec 1, 2005

https://twitter.com/UN/status/1712112794269544605

9 UN workers have died of bomb-related injuries.

# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:43

Probe 17: Jul 27, 2014; Red Rain is coming down

Red Rain

Failed Imagineer posted:

Hmm some basic recognition of hypocrisy by at least one EU leader.

https://twitter.com/thejournal_ie/status/1712081528627290324?t=Di5SffhIUT-CnfQ7Ew587w&s=19

Fucken Israel, got me nodding approvingly at my country's dickhead neolib leader

It's concerning that "unambiguously condemning Israel's ongoing bombing of Palestine" is such a high bar to clear among EU leadership.

# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:45

Mean Baby: May 28, 2005

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Hamas has not supported a two state solution for over a decade. They have been explicitly against it since they were formed. The only time it has sort of seemed ambiguous was their 2017 political document, which about 5 years old, where they said they did not support a two-state solution, but would support a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders as a starting point - with a commitment to eventually enlarging a Palestinian state from the river to the sea.

They have affirmed that they do not support a two state solution several times since 2017.

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2023-10-10/what-you-need-to-know-about-hamas
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/5/2/hamas-accepts-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders

So in other words they support a two state solution.

You don�t need to accept the entire framework of your occupier to come to a truce. Israel has no interest in giving a single inch while Hamas is giving a whole drat half a country.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:47

Randalor: Sep 4, 2011

zer0spunk posted:

That is what's next, this thread moves fast so I don't know if this stuff was covered or not.

- 300,000 reservists are called up
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/10/israel-military-draft-reservists/

-evacuation of the areas nearby the strip
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-evacuates-civilians-from-gaza-area-towns-as-forces-scour-for-remaining-gunmen/

I wish I could find the article that gave the figure, but it was saying 25,000 "militants" between all the factions in gaza for context, but embedded in the population, not in uniforms, out in their own turf..it usually ends up bloody when they fight inside gaza, and this time there's this massive grudge going in..not good

So is this just going to end in mass murder, 0 Palestinians in Gaza and Israel getting away scott free with committing mass genocide, while the rest of the world just watches and makes a pariah of anyone who tries to speak up against it? Because it reads like Israel is getting ready to just march in an army.

# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:52

Zzulu: May 15, 2009; (â°ËvËâ°)

What exactly would anyone do? When America invaded other nations as revenge and occupied them no one stopped them either

You can't really stop a country unless you're willing to go to war with them

# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:59

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Mean Baby posted:

So in other words they support a two state solution.

You don�t need to accept the entire framework of your occupier to come to a truce. Israel has no interest in giving a single inch while Hamas is giving a whole drat half a country.

They are? It reads to me like �we�re willing to temporarily settle for part of our eventual goal.� You might give them credit for honesty and perhaps in principle it could be an aspiration but not any kind of goal, I suppose.

# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:59

fool of sound: Oct 10, 2012

Zzulu posted:

What exactly would anyone do? When America invaded other nations as revenge and occupied them no one stopped them either

You can't really stop a country unless you're willing to go to war with them

The USA is orders of magnitude more powerful on a bunch of different axes. If the Israel�s allies cut it off it would almost certainly capitulate quickly.

# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:03

zer0spunk: Nov 6, 2000; devil never even lived

Randalor posted:

So is this just going to end in mass murder, 0 Palestinians in Gaza and Israel getting away scott free with committing mass genocide, while the rest of the world just watches and makes a pariah of anyone who tries to speak up against it? Because it reads like Israel is getting ready to just march in an army.

Yes, they declared war and are marching in an army to dismantle Hamas. I don't know how to say war isn't mass murder but it is, and then we go down the "ethics of war" path on mass murder with a reason** and that's not what anyone wants to do here

Opposing a war is totally valid, but it is happening, with a good majority of the world saying it's a reactionary move, and the US going so far as to say it must happen

quote:

Hamas does not stand for the Palestinian people�s right to dignity and self-determination. Its stated purpose is the annihilation of the State of Israel and the murder of Jewish people.

They use Palestinian civilians as human shields.

Hamas offers nothing but terror and bloodshed with no regard to who pays the price.

The loss of innocent life is heartbreaking.

Like every nation in the world, Israel has the right to respond � indeed has a duty to respond � to these vicious attacks.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2023/10/10/remarks-by-president-biden-on-the-terrorist-attacks-in-israel-2/

It was a fairly impassioned speech, for a modern US politician anyway

# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:03

ImpAtom: May 24, 2007

zer0spunk posted:

Yes, they declared war and are marching in an army to dismantle Hamas. I don't know how to say war isn't mass murder but it is, and then we go down the "ethics of war" path on mass murder with a reason** and that's not what anyone wants to do here

Opposing a war is totally valid, but it is happening, with a good majority of the world saying it's a reactionary move, and the US going so far as to say it must happen

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2023/10/10/remarks-by-president-biden-on-the-terrorist-attacks-in-israel-2/

It was a fairly impassioned speech, for a modern US politician anyway

On the other hand simply calling something war doesn't make it suddenly stop being a mass murder. You can get into the ethics of war part but when one side has an overwhelming advantage and has stated their end goal is the total razing of every single structure then that doesn't really sound like a war.

# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:07

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the two-state solution imply mutual recognition of state borders? Otherwise the proposed solution is just to freeze the conflict.

# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:08

Ghetto SuperCzar: Feb 20, 2005

Zzulu posted:

What exactly would anyone do? When America invaded other nations as revenge and occupied them no one stopped them either

You can't really stop a country unless you're willing to go to war with them

America has a lot of leverage over Israel due to how much aid and business we give them.

# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:08

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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Nov 5, 2023

# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:09

zer0spunk: Nov 6, 2000; devil never even lived

ImpAtom posted:

On the other hand simply calling something war doesn't make it suddenly stop being a mass murder. You can get into the ethics of war part but when one side has an overwhelming advantage and has stated their end goal is the total razing of every single structure then that doesn't really sound like a war.

I would have to disagree and say the mutual need for the destruction of the enemy on both sides constitutes one of the bigger definitions of war. Israel wants hamas gone, hamas wants all israelis gone. Even worse, it's a proxy war when it's being funded by another enemy from abroad who won't engage themselves since they won't sustain casualties, and also get to admonish israel for "over reacting" win/win

# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:14

Bholder: Feb 26, 2013

Zzulu posted:

What exactly would anyone do? When America invaded other nations as revenge and occupied them no one stopped them either

You can't really stop a country unless you're willing to go to war with them

In a fair and just world Israel would be put on the same level as Russia.

They would be heavily sanctioned, all trade would stop, leaders would be arrested on contact...

It would be even more effective, and you don't even need to go that far considering how Israel is reliant on western support.

# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:19

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

Nail Rat posted:

Let's be clear, the Palestinians (including 1 loving million children) will not be starving to death.

They'll be dying of thirst much sooner than that.

3 days is how long you can live without water, the water was cut off around 3 days ago, I wonder how much potable water remains

A couple people posted earlier in the thread that "Israel cut off water to Gaza" is, while somewhat accurate, reductionist. Israel does not control all of Gaza's access, or even a majority of it, as such. They cut off... I want to say something like 10%?, but also, Gaza is extremely reliant on purification and filtration systems for the rest of their supply, which is obviously going to experience some problems via power loss and all the bombing.

Gaza's water situation isn't zero, but it's bad.

# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:24

ummel: Jun 17, 2002; <3 Lowtax; Fun Shoe

Is Israel's economy dependent on foreign aid? Or is it mostly military? Western sanctions would cripple their economy, but would cutting aid?

# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:24

zer0spunk: Nov 6, 2000; devil never even lived

Bholder posted:

In a fair and just world Israel would be put on the same level as Russia.

They would be heavily sanctioned, all trade would stop, leaders would be arrested on contact...

It would be even more effective, and you don't even need to go that far considering how Israel is reliant on western support.

It's mutually beneficial in reality, but that's not as cool of a way to frame it

https://il.usembassy.gov/our-relationship/policy-history/fact-sheet-u-s-israel-economic-relationship/

quote:

The First U.S. Free Trade Agreement

The United States-Israel Free Trade Agreement, established in 1985, was the first free trade agreement entered into by the United States. Since its entry into force, trade between the countries has increased ten-fold to $49 billion in 2016. The reopening of the Israeli market to U.S. beef in 2016 is a sign of Israeli interest in further opening our trade relations.

Israelis now invest close to $24 billion in the United States, nearly triple what it was a decade earlier.

Start-Up Nation

U.S. firms have been a big part of the
Start-Up Nation story, with U.S. companies establishing two-thirds of the more than 300 foreign-invested research and development centers in Israel. Israeli firms, meanwhile, represent the second-largest source of foreign listings on the NASDAQ after China � and more than Indian, Japanese, and South Korean firms combined.

Cooperation Agreements

The U.S. and Israeli governments have recently signed, or committed to develop, a variety of cooperation agreements, all at the Cabinet Secretary or head of agency level, including agreements on:

civil aviation, promised by the U.S. FAA Administrator;
public health and medical science, signed by the U.S. HHS Secretary;
energy, including renewable energy, signed by the U.S. Energy Secretary;
space cooperation, signed by the U.S. NASA Administrator;
transportation cooperation, focused on autonomous vehicles, among other topics, signed by the U.S. Transportation Secretary.

If we've moved on to "why are the US and israel allies" portion of the discussion, I'm just going to say "see: holocaust" as a foundational cornerstone answer and bow out of that silly debate

# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:26

studio mujahideen: May 3, 2005

Google Jeb Bush posted:

A couple people posted earlier in the thread that "Israel cut off water to Gaza" is, while somewhat accurate, reductionist. Israel does not control all of Gaza's access, or even a majority of it, as such. They cut off... I want to say something like 10%?, but also, Gaza is extremely reliant on purification and filtration systems for the rest of their supply, which is obviously going to experience some problems via power loss and all the bombing.

Gaza's water situation isn't zero, but it's bad.

With no power, it is zero. What are you talking about? And before you say, "Gaza produces its own power!"

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/11/middleeast/gaza-power-plant-shuts-down-intl/index.html

quote:

Gaza�s only power station has stopped working after the fuel needed for generating electricity ran out on Wednesday, Gaza officials said.

�Gaza is currently without power,� the head of the Gaza power authority, Galal Ismail, told CNN.

studio mujahideen fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Oct 11, 2023

# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:28

Count Roland: Oct 6, 2013

ummel posted:

Is Israel's economy dependent on foreign aid? Or is it mostly military? Western sanctions would cripple their economy, but would cutting aid?

They're not, they've got a pretty vibrant economy especially for the region, though of course with their own problems.

A quick Google suggests Israel's military budget is strong 24 billion, of which 3 bill is US aid. These numbers are probably skew for several reasons but that's a starting point.

# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:31

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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Nov 5, 2023

# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:32

Sherbert Hoover: Dec 12, 2019; Working hard, thank you!

B B posted:

The U.S. is currently unwilling to encourage Israel to not starve and slaughter people:

https://twitter.com/samhusseini/status/1712072059830853872

drink every time this smarmy gently caress smirks

# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:48

mannerup: Jan 11, 2004; ♬ I Know You're Dying Trying To Figure Me Out♬

♬My Name's On The Tip Of Your Tongue Keep Running Your Mouth♬

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♬No Matter What You Do Im Gonna Get It Without Ya♬

♬ I Know You Ain't Used To A Female Alpha♬

mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Nov 5, 2023

# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:53

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Zzulu posted:

What exactly would anyone do? When America invaded other nations as revenge and occupied them no one stopped them either

You can't really stop a country unless you're willing to go to war with them

Countries did go to war with Nazi Germany. That's how the Holocaust was eventually stopped, when the invading armies reached and liberated the death camps on their way to Berlin.

I'm not saying that those countries went to war specifically to stop the Holocaust, but when people are using Holocaust analogies to criticize the neighbors of the country committing the atrocity in question, it wouldn't make sense to ignore how the international community treated the country committing the Holocaust or how the Holocaust was eventually stopped.

Paladinus posted:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the two-state solution imply mutual recognition of state borders? Otherwise the proposed solution is just to freeze the conflict.

There's been a fair few cases where two hostile groups were partitioned into a "two-state solution", reached a mutual peace or ceasefire, and just stayed that way even without a final solution working out their issues and disagreements once and for all. Even though neither side really officially acknowledged the other's borders or right to exist, they weren't willing to go back to war about it again. Those kinds of states generally don't have very good relations with each other, sure, but they've largely avoided full-scale war - even when the military balance between the two states vastly shifts. Once some kind of peaceful balance has been established and maintained for a while, it's pretty hard for them to go back to all those years of bloody war (especially if the international community is exerting pressure to keep it that way).

For example, Korea. The president of South Korea during the Korean War was so virulently anti-North and so dedicated to unifying the Korean peninsula that he refused to sign the armistice ending the Korean War. But once he was forced into accepting peace (by US pressure and the unwillingness of the rest of the South Korean government to follow him), the peace has more or less held for all this time.

Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Oct 11, 2023

# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:55

zer0spunk: Nov 6, 2000; devil never even lived

mannerup posted:

Link to the news article and Channel 12 in Israel even cut to the Al Jazeera feed live to show the footage.

Qatar and Egypt are both mediating hostage releases, any release should be cheered. I hope every one of them gets out. These kidnapped people aren't soldiers

# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:58

UP AND ADAM: Jan 24, 2007; by Pragmatica

Unfortunately, there's no way to know that. For Palestine to ensure its safety they need to, and should, exercise extreme caution. Once potential combatants are captured, there's no safer place for them to be than in Palestinian custody, for their and for Palestine's sake, which I should remind you, is paramount at this time.

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# ? Oct 11, 2023 22:04

salartarium: Sep 7, 2021

ummel posted:

Is Israel's economy dependent on foreign aid? Or is it mostly military? Western sanctions would cripple their economy, but would cutting aid?

I can�t imagine Germany halting reparations no matter what happens. Military aid could be stopped perhaps, but I don�t think Germany is going to change its stance in the near term.

# ? Oct 11, 2023 22:09

zer0spunk: Nov 6, 2000; devil never even lived

UP AND ADAM posted:

Unfortunately, there's no way to know that.

Once potential combatants are captured,

I think maybe this is just a miscommunication of the point you're making because conscription starts at 18 in Israel and underage children would visibly not be a combatant. There's no child soldier brigade, they are non-combatants definitively

# ? Oct 11, 2023 22:11

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# ? May 10, 2024 15:50

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Main Paineframe posted:

Countries did go to war with Nazi Germany. That's how the Holocaust was eventually stopped, when the invading armies reached and liberated the death camps on their way to Berlin.

I'm not saying that those countries went to war specifically to stop the Holocaust, but when people are using Holocaust analogies to criticize the neighbors of the country committing the atrocity in question, it wouldn't make sense to ignore how the international community treated the country committing the Holocaust or how the Holocaust was eventually stopped.

They ended the holocaust because Germany invaded them or declared war on them. Not because they wanted to go to war against Germany to protect ethnic or sexual minorities or political opposition there. In contrast, nothing happened as long as Hitler kept the atrocities within German borders. Plenty of countries remained neutral through all of it or were even allied with Germany. I just don't think that your argument works.

# ? Oct 11, 2023 22:15

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