|
Tonetta posted:okay well if the choice is +30% on critical and +30% on close with a barb, the +30% on critical is only good for ~18% overall if your crit rate is 50%, and therefore worse have to revisit this because I didn't realize they were going to let the bucket "fill up" to that 20% vuln 50% crit mark. guess it means that you hit those numbers and then excess does as I previously described. I just.... why?
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 20:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 18:04 |
|
|
so that crit and vuln aren’t mandatory and so that it can be done by changing numbers rather than whole underlying systems which would take longer than just a season. i mean the other issue, which i’m not sure they’ve seen, is that like close dmg % can roll much more (say 20% higher max) than just phy dmg % or whatever. so instead of crit/vuln, it might just wind up being close/core or whatever
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 21:09
|
|
|
I undestand why they made A change, what I don't understand is why they made it as convoluted and confusing as they can while justifying it as the players that didn't understand the mechanic before would have a better time the one thing this game has over the arpg's is the toddler level understanding of the mechanics, making it easy for anybody to just play it without really thinking
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 21:14
|
|
|
Stacking one affix was easy. Now having to wonder whether I’ve maxed out three different buckets instead is a really dumb change.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 21:17
|
|
|
Tonetta posted:have to revisit this because I didn't realize they were going to let the bucket "fill up" to that 20% vuln 50% crit mark. guess it means that you hit those numbers and then excess does as I previously described. I just.... why? The patch notes say eg "critical strikes always deal x50% damage" so no I don't think there will be a need to 'fill up' that amount. Every gear/paragon crit damage stat is a conditional additive bonus on top of that
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 21:21
|
|
|
one of the devs posted a breakdown of it but Twitter is so loving bad now I can't find it again
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 21:27
|
|
|
dyzzy posted:The patch notes say eg "critical strikes always deal x50% damage" so no I don't think there will be a need to 'fill up' that amount. Every gear/paragon crit damage stat is a conditional additive bonus on top of that the words they said while that screen was up suggested differently, that they will deal "up to" that much and that you have to fill that bucket up. either the notes got it wrong or the lead devs don't understand how their own game functions. timestamped for the relevant material. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNDN2Ql_x0E&t=3763s the imagery in question - 
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 21:28
|
|
|
With everything in the additive bucket vuln probably stays the best for skill choice lol
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 21:28
|
|
|
Tonetta posted:the words they said while that screen was up suggested differently, that they will deal "up to" that much and that you have to fill that bucket up. either the notes got it wrong or the lead devs don't understand how their own game functions. I got to the part where he goes into the numbers for each bucket. Roughly 1:04. The only bucket that gets the 'up to' qualifier is overpower, because that has always been a function of your hp. His explanation of the bar chart is also in line with this. 150 crit damage 200 vuln damage is what you have on your gear, that is that. It's not because you got 200 crit on your gear and 50 of that got sucked up into the multiplicative bonus, which btw I agree would be incredibly dumb dyzzy fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 21:36
|
|
|
What the gently caress is going on here? I understand the ”Barf Damage caps at 66%” concept just fine, but, 150% is also 50%, 20% is also 200%, and with their powers combined I am captain 80%? What?
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 21:36
|
|
|
Bisse posted:What the gently caress is going on here? the two play into one another (they never didn't) 50 x 20% = 10% 50% + 20% +10% = 80%
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 21:38
|
|
|
Bisse posted:What the gently caress is going on here? The graph's a trash fire but it's trying to show that the base crit multiplier and base vulnerability are multiplicative with each other (1.2 * 1.5 = 1.8) but completely separate from the additive crit damage and vuln damage mods
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 21:40
|
|
|
I feel like 4 different posters in a row having 4 different takeaways from what's actually going on in that one image goes to show exactly what I was saying
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 21:44
|
|
|
Yeah it's a bad chart. I hosed up in my last post, the stats are for a character who has +100 crit damage and +180 vuln damage from their gear/tree.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 21:47
|
|
|
You know what, I like Elden Ring and Lies of loving P, where there is a number and it goes up and it does the thing it says on the box, and you can check the stat screen to see the exact damage reduction, and also in LoP some weapons have a crit %. Like, never ever did I have to double-take what a stat does, or do brain excel sheets to figure out which thing is better. And in those games, I felt a lot clearer what decisions I am making and it was fun to find new gear combos for certain challenges. I also like D2, where you got gear and it had numbers and the numbers did the things. Bisse fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 21:48
|
|
|
Do I actually have to know this poo poo for any reason? I understand why we are deep-diving to see how an all-else-equal Season 1 and Season 2 build would compare, but like.. isn't the actual in-game outcome that it's a lot simpler?
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 21:53
|
|
|
Yeah it's simpler because you can treat the crit and vuln stats the same as you would something like damage vs. close. Breaking down my interpretation vs. what I think Tonetta means: You have a chat with 100 crit damage and 180 vuln damage on their gear (to match the slide). So say this char hits for 100 damage, no other modifiers. On a crit vs. vuln enemy, this becomes Season 1: 100 x (1+(50 + 100)/100) [crit] x (1+(20+180)/100) [vuln] 750 damage Season 2 (my take) 100 x (1+(100+180)/100) [combined crit/vuln on gear] x (1.5) [crit] x (1.2) [vuln] 504 damage Season 2 (Tonetta) 100 x (1+(50+160)/100) [overflow of crit/vuln] x (1.5) x (1.2) 378 damage
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 21:58
|
|
|
GoGoGadgetChris posted:Do I actually have to know this poo poo for any reason? I understand why we are deep-diving to see how an all-else-equal Season 1 and Season 2 build would compare, but like.. isn't the actual in-game outcome that it's a lot simpler? Well you can for sure just equip some things and click some demons, but eventually you might wonder why your build is over/under-performing or how some other player did so much damage, and to find out you’ll need to go down this caps-n-buckets rabbit hole. I sure hope this is explained clearly in game, otherwise have fun asking on discord and scouring fan wikis for answers. Bisse fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 21:59
|
|
|
Bisse posted:Well you can for sure just equip some things and click some demons, but eventually you might wonder why your build is over/under-performing or how some other player did so much damage, and to find out you’ll need to go down this caps-n-buckets rabbit hole. I sure hope this is explained clearly in game, otherwise have fun asking on discord and scouring fan wikis for answers. Even if this stupid buckets thing is described in game, no one besides goons are going to understand it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 22:01
|
|
|
dyzzy posted:Yeah it's simpler because you can treat the crit and vuln stats the same as you would something like damage vs. close. my eyes glazed over dont understand
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 22:04
|
|
|
All stats are good. If you stack crit/vuln it'll hit diminishing returns. They're still good until the point of excess. If all else fails get an even mix of stats and then fill a bucket like +your favorite build-centric damage type and associated(close if melee, distant if not), etc. I get wanting to know the exact math because nerds but gamer dads you will not have to think in season 2 until you open the blood power menu.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 22:05
|
|
|
The patch notes don't say you fill up the bucket, just that crits are 1.5 and vuln is 1.2. Crit damage and vuln damage stats are just additive with the rest of the poo poo (except in lower values and with more onerous conditions)
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 22:05
|
|
|
the exact numbers don't matter that much to me, it's the part where the patch notes say one thing, the devs say another, and the slide up while the devs were talking say a variation of the second thing, and there's no indication on any of this being listed clearly in the actual game for the people who aren't freaks who watch 2 hour dev streams or read 50 pages of patch notes for a game they'll play like 30 hours over 3 months
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 22:11
|
|
|
The buckets are just math word problems they are asking the players to solve as a part of their Diablo experience. It's like asking someone's name and they answer in the form of a riddle.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 22:11
|
|
|
To me, it doesn't really matter whether I'm looking for crit and vuln or not on gear, I am a bit apprehensive about not being able to simply disregard gear which could roll vuln and crit damage and didn't when poring through the inventory though, it will add a considerable amount of time to looking at your inventory (particularly comparing to 5/5 upgraded items)
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 22:17
|
|
|
Vic posted:It's like asking someone's name and they answer in the form of a riddle. Ah, Al'Diabolos.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 22:18
|
|
|
flashman posted:To me, it doesn't really matter whether I'm looking for crit and vuln or not on gear, I am a bit apprehensive about not being able to simply disregard gear which could roll vuln and crit damage and didn't when poring through the inventory though, it will add a considerable amount of time to looking at your inventory (particularly comparing to 5/5 upgraded items) as much as it sucks that the time will increase per piece, they did cut back on what you're even seeing drop fairly dramatically (autosalvage on lower tier gear) and that was always going to happen when they added more variety to what you could actually choose to wear. this can be solved with an actual loot filter, which will eventually come (probably a paid expansion lmao)
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 22:20
|
|
|
Doomykins posted:All stats are good. Yeah this is what I'm getting at. I don't need to solve for N so who cares if that's a long equation. The in game practice is intuitive and simple....
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 22:28
|
|
|
I feel like crit damage is going to be useless until you hit a certain crit chance. Does this sound right?
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 22:28
|
|
bruvs be4 luvs
|
Yeah likewise with vulnerable/overpower
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 22:30
|
|
|
finally found it on the trash site https://twitter.com/TinMan354/status/1712111383469519293?t=6qt5ywI_KTHYSgBCnkCKEw&s=19
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 22:54
|
|
|
thanks for that. so it is just what I originally said here, thenTonetta posted:okay well if the choice is +30% on critical and +30% on close with a barb, the +30% on critical is only good for ~18% overall if your crit rate is 50%, and therefore worse
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 22:57
|
|
|
Yeah even with a 20% bump in values that's not a hard choice. Maybe some classes can easily get high crit but seems pretty hard to justify But why ~18. Half of 30 is just 15
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 23:03
|
|
|
Bisse posted:You know what, I like Elden Ring and Lies of loving P, where there is a number and it goes up and it does the thing it says on the box, and you can check the stat screen to see the exact damage reduction, and also in LoP some weapons have a crit %. Like, never ever did I have to double-take what a stat does, or do brain excel sheets to figure out which thing is better. And in those games, I felt a lot clearer what decisions I am making and it was fun to find new gear combos for certain challenges. oh sick i rolled a 34% FCR spirit shield, that’s only 1% away from max, i wonder how much faster ill cast now. only +300 damage on this runeword? no thanks, ill grab this %200 ED yellow instead, that’s a lot better e: pretend i also did the above annoying thing for -resist, attack speed breakpoints (up to and including getting it so high you no longer do any dps because you can’t attack), revive stupidity, gear quality increasing on summons with +skills, light radius, move speed penalties, probably more i can’t immediately recall harrygomm fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 23:05
|
|
|
lol D2 may not be the best example
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 23:05
|
|
|
i think the number changes in d4 are, barring any barber like outliers, going to mean you can basically follow the green numbers and just equip bigger green number
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 23:09
|
|
|
dyzzy posted:Yeah even with a 20% bump in values that's not a hard choice. Maybe some classes can easily get high crit but seems pretty hard to justify it's +50% multi on actual critical, meaning that the 30% from close is 45% on critical, and 30% on noncrit. 30% on critical is actually 45% on the critical after multi, but 0% on non crits. ~18 is not quite right, it's a bit lower and was just spitballing the math in a split second, but it equates to roughly a 35% loss because the close damage loses the ~50% bonus from noncrits. e I did vuln on accident. fixed
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 23:10
|
|
|
Hm I see what you mean. I guess it's easier in my head to evaluate without thinking about the final result
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 23:14
|
|
|
Bisse posted:I also like D2, where you got gear and it had numbers and the numbers did the things. You might say that stats being weird and misleading is tradition!
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 23:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 18:04 |
|
|
bio347 posted:Increased Attack Speed can do absolutely nothing if they don't cause you to reach a new frame breakpoint.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 23:41
|
|
