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https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/computer-programmers.htm Employment of computer programmers is projected to decline 11 percent from 2022 to 2032. The median annual wage for computer programmers was $97,800 in May 2022. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm Overall employment of software developers, quality assurance analysts, and testers is projected to grow 25 percent from 2022 to 2032, much faster than the average for all occupations. The median annual wage for software developers was $127,260 in May 2022. The median annual wage for software quality assurance analysts and testers was $99,620 in May 2022. As far as why there are both Computer Programmers and Software Developers, who knows? My uneducated guess would be that these job titles are descriptive insofar as they match people's existing job titles and prescriptive insofar as those job titles are considered to be the same or similar enough for these categorizations, though that still doesn't show why they aren't merged.
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Oct 10, 2023 08:43
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There are a lot of developers out there making 40, 50, 60k per year and happy with that because either they don't know what the market has been doing, or are afraid to ask for a raise. There's also a broad spectrum of coding work. The guy updating the main page for a local super market chain in Missouri isn't providing as much economic value as someone doing AI R&D in San Francisco I have a cousin who works in the drinking water lab for his city for many years, his wife apparently looked at what other cities were paying and found out he was getting about half the going rate for a first year guy at a nearby city, and asked his new boss for a raise he makes like $40k more a year now or something I'll take this opportunity to plug the negotiation thread, it's easily the most important thread on these here forums
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Oct 10, 2023 09:26
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Is the AI engineer propping up a bunch of sex workers or what, how are they valuable
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Oct 10, 2023 13:17
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I was poking around some other occupations with my SO, which got me thinking about https://www.onetonline.org/, which is a terrific resource for job data, from the Department of Labor. The data is similar, but not exactly the same, in a way that I am not quite sure about. https://www.onetonline.org/link/summary/15-1251.00 Computer Programmers https://www.onetonline.org/link/summary/15-1252.00 Software Developers Not sure what here encapsulates the difference.
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Oct 10, 2023 13:43
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Leperflesh posted:How on earth is the average software developer salary so low in those reports? Entry level positions are like $100k+. My brother took a year of classes, learned elixir, and after one year of work he's making $120k. He lives in Oklahoma. Most entry levels jobs that don't require a CS degree aren't 120k+ outside of high COL areas. In OK maybe there's a shortage? I'd consider that a very, very nice first job for someone and atyical. Programmer vs Developer, I suspect programmer might encapsulate some older data-entry type roles or some entry-level support roles that people tend to graduate out of. Space Fish posted:Is the AI engineer propping up a bunch of sex workers or what, how are they valuable It's a small niche and a lot of it requires advanced math. It's also usually not really entry-level, so you are cutting out the low end in general.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:30
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Lockback posted:Programmer vs Developer, I suspect programmer might encapsulate some older data-entry type roles or some entry-level support roles that people tend to graduate out of. Think someone who makes data entry apps for a local bank vs. someone who builds the data pipelines for Facebook. They both write code, but that's really all they have in common.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:59
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In more global economics news, it seems like China's real estate crisis is getting worse...New York Times posted:Country Garden Caves to Debts as China’s Real Estate Crisis Worsens An interesting side-note is that the NY Times now has its own sub-section on "China's Stalling Economy", under which this story was published. 
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Oct 10, 2023 16:38
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Lockback posted:Most entry levels jobs that don't require a CS degree aren't 120k+ outside of high COL areas. In OK maybe there's a shortage? I'd consider that a very, very nice first job for someone and atyical. Yeah my brother lives in OK but his employer is in Seattle, and it's his second job - first was also a good job but he didn't tell me what the salary was. Remote work is an option for an increasing number of employers and there continues to be a significant shortage in many key areas. I think my brother was smart to focus on elixer. But I think this is also meaningful: Magnetic North posted:https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm The previous statistic was folding these together, when you split them out it makes a lot more sense. A lot of people who start in QA transition into developer roles because the pay is so much better.
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Oct 10, 2023 16:45
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Man, I knew it was over leveraged but the fact that pre-sales on apartments that don't exist dropping was enough to send them into default is crazy. It's like "The Big Short" on steroids.
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Oct 10, 2023 16:48
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Leperflesh posted:How on earth is the average software developer salary so low in those reports? Entry level positions are like $100k+. My brother took a year of classes, learned elixir, and after one year of work he's making $120k. He lives in Oklahoma. The last time I looked into this, the averages are brought down quite a bit by software developers working for federal/state/local governments.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:04
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oh god, yeah, government jobs are so badly paid it's actually incredible they can keep anyone in those positions, they must be just truly terrible at their jobs to not get better work
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Oct 10, 2023 17:43
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Leperflesh posted:oh god, yeah, government jobs are so badly paid As with everything else, there are tradeoffs. Some people will find it attractive, and others won't. I went from being a quant at a Wall Street-adjacent firm to a government position that pays about half as much, and I'm much better off here. There are way fewer stupid assholes, I get to work on things that matter to a lot of people, I get to take the time to do things right because we're not scrambling to make money right now, and there are promotion opportunities that would be tougher to get elsewhere. The money is a downside, but that's mitigated somewhat by the fact that my organization is remote-first so I can be somewhere with a reasonable cost of living. I don't know how much longer I'll stay, but I'm definitely not making my move until something really good comes up. At the lower end of the scale federal jobs can be competitive with the alternatives (although this varies heavily by agency). They also come with decent benefits, you can't be fired unless you commit a crime, and historically there's been a roughly 4% cost of living adjustment every year (no guarantees though). It's not the best deal out there, but as long as you're outside the most expensive cities it can be comfortable. (There has been some talk about offering a higher rate for people who have desirable skills, particularly those related to programming or AI. We'll see if that goes anywhere and how fast, but it's definitely not impossible.)
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Oct 10, 2023 18:33
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Leperflesh posted:oh god, yeah, government jobs are so badly paid There's something to be said for just massive job security and decent benefits. And ultrafilter said it!
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Oct 10, 2023 18:34
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I suppose I've been very lucky to be in the same software job (technical writing) at the same company for nearly 20 years, it's true my peers jump around more... but they get more money that way, too. Anyway point being I think it's likely that several thousand software engineering jobs within government are pulling down the average salary, although the government also outsources a huge amount of its software needs (including to my own employer) so I dunno what the actual figures are. The ability to work remotely for normal software jobs seems to be increasing, despite the back-to-work mandates widely reported from several tech giants in the last year. I think that will tend to raise salaries for those who are stuck in for example oklahoma. Tech also imports a lot of labor from india and other countries on H1Bs and it occurs to me that the salaries for those employees are also artificially low.
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Oct 10, 2023 18:50
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There are also a ton of small shops of < 10 people who all have equity that are getting by on small contracts or niche sales trying to make it big. Those also bring down the average. I also know of people working jobs in LCOL areas where they absolutely could make more but just don't really want to move or go through the effort for remote work. Again, SA and people adjacent to us are not a fair representation of the population.
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Oct 10, 2023 19:50
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LanceHunter posted:In more global economics news, it seems like China's real estate crisis is getting worse... i guess the question is how well other property developers have managed to unwind their leverage since beijing first tried to take away the punch bowl. though at the end of the day i have to figure that the government will bail everyone out if it looks like there's too much contagion for the market to handle
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Oct 11, 2023 01:50
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China halted evergrand(?) trading like what 18 months ago and recently unpaused it, presumably to prevent a global financial panic The whole pyramid scheme/house of cards thing appears to still be unstable. Based on what little research I did last year seems like growth was leveraged to borrow additional capital. Presumably pausing international bond payments was the first step and they've drastically restructured their bond payments domestically (just a guess but probably changed the pay period from 8 years -> 30 years at a lower rate, or something ridiculous) That said sounds like the real estate market has come to a stand still as people don't trust their condo will be built so they're having to build already committed condos with cash on hand Presumably an unbuilt condo is a pretty illiquid asset, like trying to sell your car lease after you drove it into a Wendy's with expired insurance
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Oct 11, 2023 06:18
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Monday's Money Stuff newsletter had what I thought was a fairly interesting piece on Ozempic. It's a fairly potent weight loss drug, but because of the mechanisms at play, it has the potential to cut down on addictive and impulsive behavior in general, and that could have pretty significant effects on consumer behavior if use becomes widespread.
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Oct 11, 2023 18:24
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ultrafilter posted:Monday's Money Stuff newsletter had what I thought was a fairly interesting piece on Ozempic. It's a fairly potent weight loss drug, but because of the mechanisms at play, it has the potential to cut down on addictive and impulsive behavior in general, and that could have pretty significant effects on consumer behavior if use becomes widespread. I took part in a big discussion of diet and weight loss a month or two ago and Ozempic came up a lot. I have to admit I wondered what the manufacturer's stock price was doing because a common mention was it's used as a diabetes drug, so many insurance companies won't cover it for weight loss, but some people were still paying like a thousand dollars cash a month for it. That kinda seems like the holy grail of modern pharmaceutical companies to me. Americans are rich and fat, the synergy!
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Oct 11, 2023 18:30
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Bremen posted:I took part in a big discussion of diet and weight loss a month or two ago and Ozempic came up a lot. I have to admit I wondered what the manufacturer's stock price was doing because a common mention was it's used as a diabetes drug, so many insurance companies won't cover it for weight loss, but some people were still paying like a thousand dollars cash a month for it. That kinda seems like the holy grail of modern pharmaceutical companies to me. Americans are rich and fat, the synergy! Shares are up nearly 100% this year, and have quadrupled over the past five years: 
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Oct 11, 2023 19:11
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Bremen posted:I took part in a big discussion of diet and weight loss a month or two ago and Ozempic came up a lot. I have to admit I wondered what the manufacturer's stock price was doing because a common mention was it's used as a diabetes drug, so many insurance companies won't cover it for weight loss, but some people were still paying like a thousand dollars cash a month for it. That kinda seems like the holy grail of modern pharmaceutical companies to me. Americans are rich and fat, the synergy! Novo Nordisk is making truly obscene amounts of money off of Ozempic (and Wegovy, which is functionally identical but is the brand that is specifically for weight loss and not diabetes treatment). It's gotten to the point that economists measuring the Danish economy are starting to create indexes that exclude Novo Nordisk because that one company is outpacing the entire country. NY Times posted:How Ozempic and Weight Loss Drugs Are Reshaping Denmark’s Economy Having gone from 315 pounds to 250 (and still slowly dropping) on Wegovy, if I were to lose my very good company insurance I would find a way to pay the $1600 out of pocket to continue the treatment. It is very literally life-changing.
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Oct 11, 2023 19:24
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But also, yeah, it's pretty clear that various industries that profit off of people's poor impulse control around food are already lighting fires trying to build up a cultural backlash to the drugs. The NY Times has been getting a steady flow of vaguely-HAES-oriented op-eds tut-tutting the idea that losing weight is actually a good thing. We can expect that to kick into even higher gear once Medicare starts covering the treatments (expected to happen around 2025 or so).
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Oct 11, 2023 19:31
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I'm really curious whether the whole "Ozempic might be a permanent commitment" thing would mean MORE sales, or less. If you have to take it for decades, that's more sales per customer. But maybe fewer people wanting to use it in the first place? A lot of the demand is from people who want to do (and can probably only afford) a 6-12 month period to lose a ton of weight, but then come off it.
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Oct 11, 2023 20:32
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Just giving people 12 months to learn different habits would mean it would probably see lots of usage, even if everyone doesn't stay on it eternally.
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Oct 11, 2023 20:48
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:I'm really curious whether the whole "Ozempic might be a permanent commitment" thing would mean MORE sales, or less. I think the effects are obvious enough that the fact one needs to keep using the drug won't be a hugely limiting factor. I'm pretty sure most people are getting it through their insurance anyways (see some of the posts in the corporate thread about how it is wrecking the short-term costs for a lot of company health plans), so I don't think there are a huge number of folks saving up for a year's supply in hopes that will be all they need. I do imagine some people are turned off by the idea of having to take a medication in perpetuity to continue seeing its effects, but there are plenty of people who already have to do that with other medicines (women on birth control, diabetics taking insulin, thyroid cancer survivors taking replacement hormones, people on statins, etc, etc, etc). I don't imagine the number of people choosing to forgo the treatment will make much difference in final market share. Hell, I imagine people getting knock-off semaglutide from compounding pharmacies are a more significant bite into Novo Nordisk's bottom line.
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Oct 11, 2023 20:53
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Statins and Synthroid are like $5 a month or less for the generic formulations that most people take. $1000 a month for life for 50-100 million people is not something insurance companies or patients are gonna tolerate for very long.
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Oct 11, 2023 21:11
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Is Ozempic scaling up production? I imagine they want to move quickly.
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Oct 11, 2023 21:35
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I hadn't heard of this. Looks like it's an injection, but a daily pill form was recently put on the market this year (Rybelsus) and also costs about $1000/mo. Comparing that to birth control sounds about right Google yields a bunch of different results on when Ozempic patents expire Mylan Pharmacutical is claiming it ought to expire when Saxenda does, since Ozempic is a derivative of that drug, it would expire next year in 2024 (unlikely) Apparently the pharmacuticla patent expires in 2026 in China. China's patents don't expire for 20 years (same as US?) and they just increased pharma patents from 20 to 25 years so I'm not sure why it expires so soon in China but lots of reputable news sites seem to be parroting the 2026 date (without reasoning oh why) Drugpatentwatch.com in the google summary says December 5, 2031 but it's behind a paywall when you try to visit it Presumably China will start selling the generic version the day the patent expires, and they've already begun work on the factory (guess). As soon as the generic version goes on the market I would imagine a lot of people will be flying to mexico/china to cut the cost in half or more even if it isn't technically FDA approved
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Oct 11, 2023 22:15
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ultrafilter posted:Monday's Money Stuff newsletter had what I thought was a fairly interesting piece on Ozempic. It's a fairly potent weight loss drug, but because of the mechanisms at play, it has the potential to cut down on addictive and impulsive behavior in general, and that could have pretty significant effects on consumer behavior if use becomes widespread. Ugh, no. Sorry, I've been encountering this one from several directions and it's quite frustrating. The only evidence for literally any effect was a Wal-mart preliminary finding of a reduction in overall caloric content of purchases from people they know take ozempic, which they characterize as "slight pullback in the overall basket," and which is compensated for with other purchases. It's not affecting the bottom line for the food industry in any systemic way, it's not a universal demand depressant (where the gently caress does the author get that), and the only other people talking about this sort of effect are self-promotional analytic consultants looking to get their names in the press. For the love of pete, that one Wal-mart statement is the sole evidentiary basis for any of this speculation, to the point that the author quotes it in two different places for two different purposes.
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Oct 12, 2023 00:11
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Discendo Vox posted:Ugh, no. Sorry, I've been encountering this one from several directions and it's quite frustrating. The only evidence for literally any effect was a Wal-mart preliminary finding of a reduction in overall caloric content of purchases from people they know take ozempic, which they characterize as "slight pullback in the overall basket," and which is compensated for with other purchases. It's not affecting the bottom line for the food industry in any systemic way, it's not a universal demand depressant (where the gently caress does the author get that), and the only other people talking about this sort of effect are self-promotional analytic consultants looking to get their names in the press. For the love of pete, that one Wal-mart statement is the sole evidentiary basis for any of this speculation, to the point that the author quotes it in two different places for two different purposes. That newsletter is like 50% discussion of novel financial hypotheticals because that's just what the author thinks about. (The rest is sections entitled "Oh Elon.") He wrote that to speculate about a hypothetical way that the growing popularity of index funds could produce some weird business incentives, not to educate his audience about some new drugs. (Frankly, I think that calling it a "piece on Ozempic" is a mischaracterization borne of a misreading, and that his stuff is rarely appropriate for this thread.)
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Oct 12, 2023 00:32
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Hadlock posted:I hadn't heard of this. Looks like it's an injection, but a daily pill form was recently put on the market this year (Rybelsus) and also costs about $1000/mo. Comparing that to birth control sounds about right There was an excellent article I read a few weeks back about the history of semiglutide--it was developed as a diabetes treatment, the anti-obesity part of it started as an off-label use--but I can't seem to find it now. 
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Oct 12, 2023 01:38
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classic pharma success story, like how viagra was an accident
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Oct 12, 2023 02:03
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pmchem posted:classic pharma success story, like how viagra was an accident At least this time it’s a useful oopsie instead of dick pills. Well, time for me to apply to jobs there to make sure everything goes to poo poo and the universal order is restored.
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Oct 12, 2023 02:06
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While we're on the topic, apparently it's (potentially) useful for kidney disease, the results were good enough to gently caress with devitas stock price, to the tune of about 14% across the whole industry https://www.reuters.com/business/he...ess-2023-10-11/ https://archive.ph/2023.10.12-01104...ess-2023-10-11/
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Oct 12, 2023 02:12
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Be generally careful with coverage of new uses for existing drugs; it's a place where industry spends a lot of money to promote the apparent likelihood of success.
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Oct 12, 2023 03:19
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Agree; the article talks about how a large percentage of kidney issues stem from obesity and this drug indirectly prevents kidney disease by reducing obesity
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Oct 12, 2023 03:54
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CPI numbers drop early AM EST Thursday
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Oct 12, 2023 06:25
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3.7% is the number quote:Key measures of consumer prices cooled in September.
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Oct 12, 2023 13:44
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gg inflation no replay
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Oct 13, 2023 18:06
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LanceHunter posted:3.7% is the number I cut soda out of my diet long ago but had an after school activity the other day, paid $3.00 USD for a 20oz soda at the gas station  Grocery store around the corner always has them on sale but picked up a 12 pack of soda for a pool party, paid $10 since I didn't qualify for their 3 for $20 "deal"  Headed to Costco this weekend to pick up some seltzer water using my mother in laws membership. We have definitely dialed back our grocery expenditures this year
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Oct 13, 2023 19:44
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