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Jaxyon posted:Probably stupid conspiratorial thinking, but given how unprepared Israel was, and with multiple parties, saying they told him, this might actually be a case where the bad fascist man did let a terrorism happen. It's certainly good for Bibi's power, which is all he cares about. Conspiracies of such magnitude would involve multiple conspirators in key positions, given that we're talking about the actual prime minister of Israel it is not impossible that he appointed conspirators to key positions and in fact given that he his personal appointments have all been of unqualified lickspittles it can even be argued that he had the mechanism to do so, however, it should be pointed that this would still be pretty unlikely as we're talking about a multi-tiered failure spanning multiple years, and given that we have plenty of evidence demonstrating that no conspiracy was actually required and that indeed that the state of preparedness along the border is consistent with public statements originating from Netanyahu and the heads of the security apparatus over the past 15 years it would seem significantly more likely that "What you see is what you get": Netanyahu was always more concerned with internal affairs, he was Hamas' number one patsy and unwitting collaborator, the promise of relative calm was enough for him to divert his attention to avenues where he believed he could make significant political gains and ignore the gaza front which he considered to be a dead-end.
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Oct 12, 2023 07:38
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Conspiracies of such magnitude would involve multiple conspirators in key positions, given that we're talking about the actual prime minister of Israel it is not impossible that he appointed conspirators to key positions and in fact given that he his personal appointments have all been of unqualified lickspittles it can even be argued that he had the mechanism to do so, however, it should be pointed that this would still be pretty unlikely as we're talking about a multi-tiered failure spanning multiple years, and given that we have plenty of evidence demonstrating that no conspiracy was actually required and that indeed that the state of preparedness along the border is consistent with public statements originating from Netanyahu and the heads of the security apparatus over the past 15 years it would seem significantly more likely that "What you see is what you get": Netanyahu was always more concerned with internal affairs, he was Hamas' number one patsy and unwitting collaborator, the promise of relative calm was enough for him to divert his attention to avenues where he believed he could make significant political gains and ignore the gaza front which he considered to be a dead-end. As soon as I read this I realized 10/9 truthers are going to be a thing, aren't they Or would it be 9/10 truthers e: 10/7? how has this all blended into one five day shitshow already e2: Hopefully this ends the "kuwaiti incubator" equivalency thing..from bbc: quote:And here's another line from the Israeli military update - Jonathan Conricus says that Hamas militants did behead babies during their deadly wave of attacks at the weekend. They gotta go You can't be chopping babies up like this is the crusades!! I was hoping that was total bullshit honestly, god zer0spunk fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 07:51
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zer0spunk posted:
The Hamas militants that perpetrated those acts and the entire chain of command that allowed/ordered that to happen must be brought to justice. I think everyone (in this thread at least) is of one mind on that. Brucolac fucked around with this message at 08:38 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 08:33
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Brucolac posted:The Hamas militants that perpetrated those acts and the chain of command that allowed/ordered that to happen must be brought to justice. I think everyone (in this thread at least) is of one mind on that. quote:No electricity, water, or fuel for Gaza until hostages freed - Israel Putting support of the population solely in the hands of hamas as a way of getting the hostages released is a brutal avenue but it might actually work. Is the intifada worth more than your own citizens? is a tough one to confront It also kind of puts them in a put your money where your mouth is situation if this is really about rights and not religion
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Oct 12, 2023 08:41
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zer0spunk posted:e2: Hopefully this ends the "kuwaiti incubator" equivalency thing..from bbc: A reporter said that an unnamed coroner said that it happened. That's not exactly ironclad confirmation - it's basically the same level of confirmation that the original i24 report had, in fact. In the meantime, the White House has had to backtrack on Biden's claim that he had seen confirmation of this particular atrocity with his own eyes: https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1712286535050269124 e: see the community note: https://twitter.com/Natsecjeff/status/1712213351101591907 Majorian fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 08:50
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Majorian posted:A reporter said that an unnamed coroner said that it happened. That's not exactly ironclad confirmation. In the meantime, the White House has had to backtrack on Biden's remarks that this particular atrocity happened: You're right, I was hoping that they'd have to verify and see the coroner report or something before publishing but maybe it's still under the hearsay category and they don't have to? not sure how that works, I'd consider BBC to be more on the fact checking side of journalism right now (e: or at least more skeptical/impartial) I also don't want to see visual proof or that report for my own sanitys sake, and there's enough atrocities recorded on video that it doesn't really change my "they gotta go" stance zer0spunk fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 08:54
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zer0spunk posted:You're right, I was hoping that they'd have to verify and see the coroner report or something before publishing but maybe it's still under the hearsay category and they don't have to? not sure how that works, I'd consider BBC to be more on the fact checking side of journalism right now I agree that Hamas is a terrible organization that has committed horrible atrocities. But how do you think they should be made to "go"? Because right now the Israeli government's way of doing that seems to be committing far more atrocities against innocent civilians than Hamas ever could - something that could easily strengthen Hamas' position among Palestinians, not weaken it.
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Oct 12, 2023 09:00
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Majorian posted:I agree that Hamas is a terrible organization that has committed horrible atrocities. But how do you think they should be made to "go"? Because right now the Israeli government's way of doing that seems to be committing far more atrocities against innocent civilians than Hamas ever could - something that could easily strengthen Hamas' position among Palestinians, not weaken it. Dismantling hamas is probably the easiest part, there are already a lot of factions in gaza that align like the PIJ but aren't them that would easily step in (and more than likely be the exact same thing)..ousting the reason for an army occupying and causing collateral damage isn't an unpopular idea I agree that they are using war tactics to get their hostages back, and it's not fun to watch. I have no idea what I'd choose if the options are: -stop supplying power/fuel/water to an enemy you're at war with in the hopes that pressure from within gets them to release the kidnapped -go in and try and attempt rescue by force -negotiate over the course of years and hope they aren't executed, be in this situation with the same enemy again and again I know this thread sometimes says "lay down arms and see where that goes" is a fourth option, but that's far from realistic at this point (e: because it requires a benefit of the doubt that is long gone, not because of a rejection of a peaceful method) zer0spunk fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 09:11
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I can see two ways this will go: 1- Israel commits to a land assault into a city. End result- 100,000's of civilians killed, 1000's of conscripted Israelis, Gaza looks like Berlin or Stalingrad. A bombed out city with defenders is still not going to go down without a fight. 2- Israel siege's the city and kills 100,000's of civilians. HAMAS's gunmen will be the last to be impacted (and their leadership will simply leave when it gets too hard). Not many Israeli deaths though. Somewhat slower too. Neither ending leads to peace, as neither side want it, and their leadership will simply walk away afterwards,
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Oct 12, 2023 09:33
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Not even western sovereign countries can dismantle their own extremist factions when they are not in power or in direct conflict, what hopes do a barely functioning state with very little autonomy that are constantly under siege can hope to accomplish? Let's not even mention the outside interference that makes sure Hamas is in power to create the "perfect villain". zer0spunk posted:
I know for some reason we seem to treat hostile countries like puppy dogs who you need to act carefully around of, otherwise they will learn the wrong lessons and behave badly. "We don't negotiate with terrorists" seems to mean that if you negotiate the release of hostages, they will get more hostages for more appeasement, when in turn the opposite seems to be true, where if you just ignore hostages they'll go more desperate try to go for higher profile hostages or just straight up kill civilians because why bother. There is more to this than "let's just talk it out" or "give peace a chance" and hoping for the best, but at the very least we should see how all this violent reaction is not just reprehensible, but straight up ineffective as a solution.
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Oct 12, 2023 09:38
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Bholder posted:Not even western sovereign countries can dismantle their own extremist factions when they are not in power or in direct conflict, what hopes do a barely functioning state with very little autonomy that are constantly under siege can hope to accomplish? The way this normally goes, as was the case with gilad is, they don't leave anyone behind if they can. Even the corpses are negotiated for, gilad's release was in exchange for 1,027 palestine prisoners, one of which was a particular sticking point over a killing of a father and daughter in the 70's, The problem is, now they have an estimated 150-200 of them in gaza, not 1 or 2 like usual, so this is uncharted waters in terms of response. They usually choose the negotiation option, as the force option has a history of getting the hostage killed. ***e: correction, samir was part of getting the bodies of two reservists back (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eldad_Regev) which i should have remembered because people were kinda pissed they were giving up a living prisoner for bodies..but the point that they negotiate in the majority of these for both living hostages (galid) or corpses (regev, ron arad, and so on) remains true e2: i somehow missed this in samir's wiki quote:In an interview to Al-Manar, Hezbollah's satellite television network, Kuntar said: "I'm jealous of the Zionists, who don't spare any effort in bringing back captured soldiers or soldiers' bodies. Seriously, we are jealous of our enemy and its care for a [body] and how it goes to the end of the world in order to return it, and of its concerns for captives and how it will go to the very edge to bring them back."[47] zer0spunk fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 09:48
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Mr Hootington posted:Axios political reporter is saying this in regards to Biden's claim. Ah, I see Biden did the dishonest thing on the anniversary of that other big lie after all. Seems bad when the US president says blood libel is happening and then immediately backtracks and provides no evidence  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 12, 2023 11:40
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What is going on with some of these hands, feet and faces? Looks fine at a glance but zoomed in they seem to exhibit artifacts of AI generation. https://twitter.com/IsraelinPanama/status/1711535585775530373 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 12, 2023 12:17
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BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 12:24
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Theres other photos of the group that look more normal Its probably a dogshit AI composite photo from the phone that took it. Blinken and netanyahu had a little call and response press statement and yeah unsurprisingly the US backs Israel on all fronts real or imagined. Al Jjazeera had a live PiP of gaza being bombed as blinken talked about civillian and child deaths.
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Oct 12, 2023 12:28
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Marenghi posted:What is going on with some of these hands, feet and faces? Looks like they tried to upscale the photo with AI and failed spectacularly.
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Oct 12, 2023 12:34
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https://twitter.com/cnni/status/1712417234960658569 Although the backtracking has started I think the damage this obvious lie has caused may be permanent.
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Oct 12, 2023 12:52
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Can someone help me understand the drive to disprove specific details of certain atrocities while at the same time saying there is no moral difference between a beheaded victim vs. one buried in rubble? If they’re at the same level of inhumanity, then what difference does it make?
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Oct 12, 2023 13:06
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BUUNNI posted:https://twitter.com/cnni/status/1712417234960658569 They did confirm the beheadings, just that they couldn't confirm if the victims were children.
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Oct 12, 2023 13:11
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/israel-gaza-war-updates-hamas/#link-I7DTTKRWBVC4PNT72N6HAM6HJAquote:Syrian state television said Israel has targeted both Damascus and Aleppo international airports, the country’s two largest airports. The strikes come a day after mortars were lobbed from Syrian territory toward Israel, falling on an open area. Israel has struck both airports in the past. Not sure how much of an escalation this is, given the notation that strikes like this have happened before?
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Oct 12, 2023 13:22
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Chillmatic posted:Can someone help me understand the drive to disprove specific details of certain atrocities while at the same time saying there is no moral difference between a beheaded victim vs. one buried in rubble? Can you point out specific people who have done both? Because otherwise the obvious answer is that different people are making different arguments.
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Oct 12, 2023 13:24
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I mean, the opening line is that Palestinians don't understand what an existential threat is; I don't think there's really any need to probe any deeper. I get the criticisms others have already given for this piece, but I think the opening line is more about Hamas not fully appreciating how unhinged and unrestrained the Israeli reaction was going to be when Israel feels significantly threatened. From the people I know with ties to Israel, this is a fear-driven bloodlust level that I don't think has been seen since 1973.
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Oct 12, 2023 13:24
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karthun posted:They did confirm the beheadings, just that they couldn't confirm if the victims were children. How could they have confirmed beheaded victims but not if the victims were adult or infants?
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Oct 12, 2023 13:28
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German public radio aired a live Interview with IDF spokesperson Arye Sharuz Shalicar this morning, which I thought had some reasonably well prepared questions that I have not seen asked in other outlets. Transcribed/DeepL tranlated/amateurishly edited by me:quote:Mr. Shalicar, five days after Hamas' inhumane terrorist attack on Israeli civilians, how would you describe the military situation at the moment? *: The "handing sweets to terrorists" comment might refer to celebratory demonstrations in Berlin last Saturday where sweets were handed out.
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Oct 12, 2023 13:28
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Main Paineframe posted:Yeah, what kind of psychos would go through a residential area kicking down doors and shooting anyone inside? SourKraut posted:Cutting off power to Gaza, ceasing deliveries of what small flow of potable water can be reliably depended on, preventing food and fuel from entering, I would say that all of these are much larger "psychotic issues" as it relates to impacts on humans and suffering, but you don't seem to be applying quite the same focus as the rave or grandmother hostage-taking. Okay, these are obviously horrific things but why would I bring up past Israeli or Western failings or atrocities during a discussion regarding peaceful ravers being rape, murdered and kidnapped? I don't see how sharing more awful details regarding a largely one-sided conflict changes anything regarding the morality of innocent people being slaughtered? 
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Oct 12, 2023 13:31
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karasu posted:German public radio aired a live Interview with IDF spokesperson Arye Sharuz Shalicar this morning, which I thought had some reasonably well prepared questions that I have not seen asked in other outlets. Transcribed/DeepL tranlated/amateurishly edited by me: This kind of thing is what really worries me because it's clear that there is no real endpoint. When looking at what will actually end the explosion of violence, the expectation would be that Hamas leadership being killed or handed over would be enough. But the casual "idk there is Hamas everywhere" of it speaks to the idea that Hamas is whoever the IDF thinks it is, and the only way this will end if when they feel that they have had their revenge. The theme of "Hamas is wherever our bombs fall" has been going on for decades but it has really boiled over. Crosby B. Alfred posted:Okay, these are obviously horrific things but why would I bring up past Israeli or Western failings or atrocities during a discussion regarding peaceful ravers being rape, murdered and kidnapped? I don't see how sharing more awful details regarding a largely one-sided conflict changes anything regarding the morality of innocent people being slaughtered? This isn't a one sided conflict. Starving someone kills them just as much as shooting them, and it isn't less immoral just because it's slower. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 13:40 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 13:35
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Chillmatic posted:Can someone help me understand the drive to disprove specific details of certain atrocities while at the same time saying there is no moral difference between a beheaded victim vs. one buried in rubble? Some people struggle to emotionally (rather than intellectually) accept that atrocities are done in the name of the cause they support, especially if said atrocities are perceived to be politically harmful to the cause supported. They're good, and the cause they support is good, so it can't be associated with bad things! To give an example, the images of Shani Louk's body face down in that truck were clearly graphic, shocking and dominated the news for a while. So much in fact, that it helped shape international opinion against the attacks and Hamas. Israel is leveraging this outrage to its advantage, giving it cover for what we all know its about to do in Gaza. BUT! If it can be proven that Shani Louk is alive, well, that would weaken those arguments and be great damage control for the cause! And if she is dead (which having seen the video, is by far most likely - I think simplest explanation is that someone - possibly in Hamas - realised how bad the video looked and called her mother to try and spread disinformation - which her mother has naturally latched onto as she is desperate to believe her daughter could be alive - there's not really been reliable further reports of this - just reports about earlier reports), well spreading confusion about if its true or not also helps in the propaganda war. I'm not accusing any posters of doing this conciously or maliciously - its just some people will latch onto anything, no matter how dubious, because it suits the narrative they prefer and is emotionally easier to accept than the alternative. You see it the Russia/Ukraine War - where when Ukraine makes a mistep or does something bad (which happens in war!), people will tie themselves into knots looking for ways to downplay or muddy the waters about it. Its stupid though, as bad things being done in pursuit of a cause, do not make the cause itself bad.
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Oct 12, 2023 13:40
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BUUNNI posted:How could they have confirmed beheaded victims but not if the victims were adult or infants? I don't know, this is your source. Perhaps you should ask yourself that.
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Oct 12, 2023 13:42
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Chillmatic posted:Can someone help me understand the drive to disprove specific details of certain atrocities while at the same time saying there is no moral difference between a beheaded victim vs. one buried in rubble? Intent. If you are a military leader, strike a military target but end up killing civilians unintentionally that makes you at the least possibly a lovely general. Beheading on the other hand, you are clearly trying to murder. There is no way that is remotely any kind of accident. It also hits the human psyche of being an especially cruel way to die.
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Oct 12, 2023 13:45
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Intent. And Israel is striking only military targets? Really this is more like a carpet bombing campaign, take a look at the destroyed neighborhoods of Gaza and tell me any general reasonably thought those apartment buildings were all legitimate military targets. The death in Gaza is not accidental. And when you cut off food, water and electricity to a blockaded area then it cant be considered an accident if any civilians starve or thirst to death.
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Oct 12, 2023 13:56
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karthun posted:I don't know, this is your source. Perhaps you should ask yourself that. CNN is not the source for the claim that Hamas decapitated 40 babies.
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Oct 12, 2023 13:58
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OctaMurk posted:And Israel is striking only military targets? Really this is more like a carpet bombing campaign, take a look at the destroyed neighborhoods of Gaza and tell me any general reasonably thought those apartment buildings were all legitimate military targets. No, I don't believe so. OctaMurk posted:The death in Gaza is not accidental. And when you cut off food, water and electricity to a blockaded area then it cant be considered an accident if any civilians starve or thirst to death. I never said or even implied that it was accidental? Why are you even bringing this up?
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Oct 12, 2023 13:59
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I mean, the opening line is that Palestinians don't understand what an existential threat is; I don't think there's really any need to probe any deeper. What if actually says is that they "don't understand the idea of 'existential threat' for Israeli Jews." It makes sense to me that if you experience daily threats to your life, the lives of everyone you know and love, while the state imposing that threat makes every effort to show itself as an invincible and unmovable war machine, it's basically impossible to buy into the idea that the people protected by that state also feel scared all the time.
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Oct 12, 2023 14:03
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CuddleCryptid posted:This kind of thing is what really worries me because it's clear that there is no real endpoint. When looking at what will actually end the explosion of violence, the expectation would be that Hamas leadership being killed or handed over would be enough. But the casual "idk there is Hamas everywhere" of it speaks to the idea that Hamas is whoever the IDF thinks it is, and the only way this will end if when they feel that they have had their revenge. Especially now with some further quotes of, "the terrorists are still in Israel, hiding among you." (From the interview posted above) Edit: Tigey posted:
The Spiegel article listed the source as a "family friend," of someone who was in some sort of relationship with the victim's aunt. https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/ham...70-469989fe36e7 quote:According to her mother, the young woman is still alive. She has a serious head injury and is in a critical situation, the mother said in the video message. »You shouldn't argue about questions of jurisdiction. We have to act quickly to get Shani out of the Gaza Strip .” Regardless, it really does sound like a mother in grief latching onto hope. The family friend said she might be in a particular hospital, but they're unable to enter to confirm, etc. I would think there would be some sort of proof of life if it was true, but it's a war zone so I doubt that's a priority for anyone on the ground. So, I don't personally think it's Hamas disinformation, much more likely a grieving mother talking to the press. The mother is basically calling for a specops rescue or something, but I'm dealing with machine translation of the article so that might not be accurate. This whole thing is a microcosm of how the conflict thoroughly disregards the relationships that real people have on the ground between Israel and Palestine, though. Father is Israeli and mother is converted German Catholic, and they have a close enough relationship to people in Gaza they call friends that those friends are willing to try and track down a Hamas hostage and report on her location (assuming it all to be true). That's probably not without personal risk to them. It's all very sad. ummel fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 14:04
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BUUNNI posted:CNN is not the source for the claim that Hamas decapitated 40 babies. Your cnn source is the source for confirmed beheaded victims but they were unable to confirm the age or sex of the victims. You tried to use this as a refutation of the claim that there were beheaded children when the article did not support your claim. Then you get mad at me because instead of reading x I read the article. Stop reading x and read articles instead, you might learn something. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 12, 2023 14:05
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:No, I don't believe so. You said the difference between a baby buried in rubble and baby beheaded is intent, and I'm saying there is not a difference in intent between the people beheading the babies and people burying the babies in rubble.
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Oct 12, 2023 14:07
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The Sean fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 14:09
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OctaMurk posted:You said the difference between a baby buried in rubble and baby beheaded is intent, and I'm saying there is not a difference in intent between the people beheading the babies and people burying the babies in rubble. I said here's a morale distinction and that comes from intent. People kill each other all the time yet everyone isn't charged with murder often manslaughter yet the outcome is still the same.
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Oct 12, 2023 14:13
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karthun posted:Your cnn source is the source for confirmed beheaded victims but they were unable to confirm the age or sex of the victims. You tried to use this as a refutation of the claim that there were beheaded children when the article did not support your claim. Then you get mad at me because instead of reading x I read the article. Stop reading x and read articles instead, you might learn something. You should probably read the linked CNN article before claiming it confirms any beheadings.
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Oct 12, 2023 14:13
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BUUNNI posted:You should probably read the linked CNN article before claiming it confirms any beheadings. karthun posted:Your cnn source is the source for confirmed beheaded victims but they were unable to confirm the age or sex of the victims. You tried to use this as a refutation of the claim that there were beheaded children when the article did not support your claim. Then you get mad at me because instead of reading x I read the article. Stop reading x and read articles instead, you might learn something. Heres the story, everyone can read it instead of talking about reading it. quote:The Israeli government has not confirmed the specific claim that Hamas attackers cut off the heads of babies during their shock attack on Saturday, an Israeli official told CNN, contradicting a previous public statement by the Prime Minister’s office.
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Oct 12, 2023 14:21
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