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https://twitter.com/AJABreaking/status/1712458565271912762 In Gaza 447 children dead. 248 women dead.
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Oct 12, 2023 14:23
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karasu posted:-snip- I think it's an interesting position to take that the Israeli army is able to know where Hamas is hiding within civilian targets (supposedly) immediately after an extreme demonstration of the fact that Hamas was not detected while preparing for the 10/7 attacks.
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Oct 12, 2023 14:24
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This, the rockets being fired from Syria "by Hamas" that turned out to be a brushfire, It really angers me a lot that the press is so falling all over itself enthusiastic about portraying Palestinians as inhuman barbarian orcs from mordor that even the IDF is the one that has to be like hold on a second.
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Oct 12, 2023 14:25
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Rigged Death Trap posted:https://twitter.com/AJABreaking/status/1712458565271912762 But the IDF didn't shoot them with an AK so everything is fine and totally legitimate military targets. No terrorism or baby murder in the concentration camp, no sir. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 12, 2023 14:26
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Nancy posted:I think it's an interesting position to take that the Israeli army is able to know where Hamas is hiding within civilian targets (supposedly) immediately after an extreme demonstration of the fact that Hamas was not detected while preparing for the 10/7 attacks. I'm sure they know places where Hamas were up until a few days ago.
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Oct 12, 2023 14:26
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karasu posted:*Horrible poo poo* Is there a way to read this that isn't the IDF spokesperson saying "We don't care about international laws, we're going to level every building and kill everyone in Gaza and say that we thought they were with Hamas as an excuse"?
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Oct 12, 2023 14:27
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Randalor posted:Is there a way to read this that isn't the IDF spokesperson saying "We don't care about international laws, we're going to level every building and kill everyone in Gaza and say that we thought they were with Hamas as an excuse"? The repeated comparisons to 9/11 seem very deliberate for this reason. The USA is the biggest supporter of Israel, and therefore if the US backed out they would have to drop it. But the US also said "gently caress the UN, gently caress international laws, gently caress rules of engagement, gently caress national sovereignty, we're going to kill some people" in response to a terror attack. So the US now has the option of either validating the invasion of Gaza or denouncing it and by extention admitting that they launched one of the largest illegal invasions in history. We can see how those cards fell.
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Oct 12, 2023 14:36
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gurragadon posted:Heres the story, everyone can read it instead of talking about reading it. For the record, when Karthun claimed that it had been confirmed that Hamas had decapitated victims, it was the case that these had been claims parroted by the IDF rather than claims independently confirmed by CNN. Maybe Karthun was just confused and did not realize the matter at hand.
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Oct 12, 2023 14:40
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karasu posted:German public radio aired a live Interview with IDF spokesperson Arye Sharuz Shalicar this morning, which I thought had some reasonably well prepared questions that I have not seen asked in other outlets. Transcribed/DeepL tranlated/amateurishly edited by me:
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Oct 12, 2023 14:41
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 14:43
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Rigged Death Trap posted:https://twitter.com/AJABreaking/status/1712458565271912762 Utterly depressing.
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Oct 12, 2023 14:43
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zer0spunk posted:I agree that they are using war tactics to get their hostages back, and it's not fun to watch. I have no idea what I'd choose if the options are: They're not using "war tactics" to get the hostages back, they're using collective punishment against civilian populations. That's not a "war tactic", it's a war crime. The population of Gaza aren't "the enemy", they're civilians. In any case, the obvious rational choice is Option C, negotiations. Even though you've padded it with fake downsides intended to make it look less attractive than it actually is, it's still clearly the option that poses by far the least risk to both Israeli and Palestinian civilians. Those negotiations don't have to take years, nor will they necessarily lead to future kidnappings. It's entirely possible that they could, of course, but that's largely up to Israel. The length of time the negotiations take depends largely on how much haggling and foot-dragging Israel tries to do as they angle for a better deal. And whether hostages happen again in the future depends on whether Israel continues to make hostages a necessary precondition for negotiating with Hamas and lets its guard down massively the way it did this month. Crosby B. Alfred posted:Okay, these are obviously horrific things but why would I bring up past Israeli or Western failings or atrocities during a discussion regarding peaceful ravers being rape, murdered and kidnapped? I don't see how sharing more awful details regarding a largely one-sided conflict changes anything regarding the morality of innocent people being slaughtered? I can think of some reasons why the Palestinians might care about those past horrific things that happened to them, and how they might be more willing to do similarly horrific things themselves as a result. Hell, Israel is, as we speak, citing horrific acts by Hamas as a justification for committing horrific acts of their own against Palestinians. If past atrocities by Hamas against Israeli civilians can be used as a valid justification for atrocities against Gaza's civilians, then we can't reasonably dismiss past atrocities by the Israeli military against Gaza's civilians when talking about Hamas atrocities. Crosby B. Alfred posted:Intent. I don't really see how this is on-topic, because nobody in this conflict is unintentionally killing civilians. Israel is attacking civilians with full knowledge that they're civilians. They're not even trying to claim it's accidental. They're claiming that it's regrettable collateral damage, but they're carrying out these strikes knowing full well they're going to inflict that collateral damage.
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Oct 12, 2023 14:45
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Can we make it a rule in this thread that the articles or full tweet threads have to be posted directly to this thread instead of linking them? Some of these links change because its breaking news coverage, twitter is pretty unreliable, and some of these articles are paywalled. It's making having a shared conversation difficult because there isn't a reference in the actual conversation we can all go back to. Edit: I don't mean to say don't link the tweets to though, just copy the actual article out as a quote.
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Oct 12, 2023 14:47
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 15:06
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BUUNNI posted:For the record, when Karthun claimed that it had been confirmed that Hamas had decapitated victims, it was the case that these had been claims parroted by the IDF rather than claims independently confirmed by CNN. Maybe Karthun was just confused and did not realize the matter at hand. I know that reading articles is hard but the statement from the unnamed Israeli official is different than the statement from the IDF. The statement from the unnamed Israeli official, who you don't know if they are in the IDF or not, is the one who confirmed beheadings, but could not confirm the ages and sex of the victims. You have conflated these statements several times. The unnamed Israeli official may or may not have been speaking with permission from the government. The fact that they said they had not confirmed the age or sex of the victims means to me that they are speaking without permission from the government. Are they telling the truth? Don't know, they are an unnamed Israeli official, but CNN trusts them enough to use them as a source and in my opinion they spoke without permission from the government so they might be closer to the truth then what bebe wants us to know.
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Oct 12, 2023 15:07
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mannerup posted:MSF has released an update on the medical conditions on the ground in Gaza currently and what they need from the international community to carry out their work. posted the entire thing instead of excerpts I mean, gently caress me I guess, but I can’t read this and view it as any less horrific than Hamas murdering children outright. They’re both awful and neither Hamas nor the IDF have any claim to justification or moral authority.
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Oct 12, 2023 15:25
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Blinken at least paid some lip service to the idea that Israel should avoid unnecessary civilian casualties, but only between assurances of complete and unconditional support and assistance. https://www.reuters.com/world/us-secretary-state-blinken-lands-israel-2023-10-12/ quote:"We democracies distinguish ourselves from terrorists by striving for a different standard, even when it's difficult," he said. "That's why it's so important to take every possible precaution to avoid harming civilians."
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Oct 12, 2023 15:26
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PT6A posted:I mean, gently caress me I guess, but I can’t read this and view it as any less horrific than Hamas murdering children outright. They’re both awful and neither Hamas nor the IDF have any claim to justification or moral authority. There's no moral high ground here. It's a question of whether it is reasonable to match atrocity with atrocity, and the answer is no. Bombing hospitals isn't a strategic decision to prevent future attacks, it's just an expression of blind rage.
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Oct 12, 2023 15:31
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Chillmatic posted:Can someone help me understand the drive to disprove specific details of certain atrocities while at the same time saying there is no moral difference between a beheaded victim vs. one buried in rubble? Mod request: It has been a few days, so I'll ask everyone again that if you are ascribing an opinion or behavior to someone (especially posters in this thread), please either quote the person/people you're responding to or link to the article if it's something offsite.
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Oct 12, 2023 15:36
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mannerup posted:MSF has released an update I doubt the death toll is going to be anywhere close to as low as that by the end of the week. It's hard to argue there's a 'matching' of atrocity to atrocity. Outrail fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 15:39
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 16:26
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mannerup posted:
so not "beheaded" anymore? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 12, 2023 17:11
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Szarrukin posted:so not "beheaded" anymore?
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Oct 12, 2023 17:18
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Szarrukin posted:so not "beheaded" anymore? This is loving disgusting
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Oct 12, 2023 17:20
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https://twitter.com/glnoronha/status/1712456802531491947?s=49&t=JVYwZSWK0MJ2te6sNxV32w They're certainly creative. Also music hits. Thom12255 fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 17:26
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https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1712497344376111346 This was brave to ask of even a moderate politician.
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Oct 12, 2023 17:27
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 17:30
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Has Israel made any demands yet? When the US decides to invade or attack some random country, they'll usually at least create a pretext where they make some demand (Afghanistan must hand over Bin Laden, Iraq must open up to weapon inspectors), and then when it's refused (or not) they use it as a causus beli for the invasion. Has Israel made any statements about what they want from Palestine, or are they just dropping any pretense that the bombings aren't the point?
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Oct 12, 2023 17:31
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mannerup posted:this is going to be used as evidence that sanitation equipment to provide potable water is a 'dual-use' technology since the pipes can be converted into munitions, not a great precedent to set for humanitarian aid They're beyond the point of pretense when it comes to why they're leveling Gaza, only delusional people care about doing that now. In a few days the pointlessness of it will be highlighted even more
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Oct 12, 2023 17:33
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Lord Harbor posted:Has Israel made any demands yet? When the US decides to invade or attack some random country, they'll usually at least create a pretext where they make some demand (Afghanistan must hand over Bin Laden, Iraq must open up to weapon inspectors), and then when it's refused (or not) they use it as a causus beli for the invasion. Has Israel made any statements about what they want from Palestine, or are they just dropping any pretense that the bombings aren't the point? https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/biden-warns-iran-over-gaza-israel-forms-emergency-war-cabinet-2023-10-11/ Freeing the hostages is what they are saying at the moment
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Oct 12, 2023 17:40
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 17:43
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Kagrenak posted:This is loving disgusting Media spreading fake news about "Palestinians beheading infants" and then backing up without any comment are disgusting. If being against literal blood libel is bannable, so be it.
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Oct 12, 2023 17:50
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mannerup posted:erosion of civil liberties over this in France, Austria and Austraila where pro-palestinian demonstrations are being banned from assembling I'm honestly starting to wonder if the tensions about this conflict in the west will end up leading to pockets of spreading sectarian violence. The tone of protests on both sides has already been incredibly heated and banning protests and showing up with cops already there is already a form of state violence and almost always drives protests towards more extreme action. Szarrukin posted:Media spreading fake news about "Palestinians beheading infants" and then backing up without any comment are disgusting. If being against literal blood libel is bannable, so be it. Oh I see so you're just drawing a strong moral disambiguation between beheading babies and burning them. Cool and normal to do. Kagrenak fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 17:51
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Szarrukin posted:Media spreading fake news about "Palestinians beheading infants" and then backing up without any comment are disgusting. JPost just confirmed that it did happen. https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-767951 EDIT: Netanyahu's office just posted the pictures on Twitter, I don't intend to view them but I think it's now unambiguous that they exist and depict real crimes against humanity. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 17:51
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Szarrukin posted:Media spreading fake news about "Palestinians beheading infants" and then backing up without any comment are disgusting. If being against literal blood libel is bannable, so be it. This is akin to being grateful/happy that babies were only shot, burnt, and some beheaded. If you don't see that as hosed up then...whatever. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 12, 2023 17:54
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Lord Harbor posted:Has Israel made any demands yet? When the US decides to invade or attack some random country, they'll usually at least create a pretext where they make some demand (Afghanistan must hand over Bin Laden, Iraq must open up to weapon inspectors), and then when it's refused (or not) they use it as a causus beli for the invasion. Has Israel made any statements about what they want from Palestine, or are they just dropping any pretense that the bombings aren't the point? I've been searching a bit over Twitter, AP, Reuters and few ME Journalists and I have not seen a single officials statement or plans aside from vague comments during tv interview their armed forces will be invading Gaza and it'll be long tough fight. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 17:55
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Civilized Fishbot posted:JPost just confirmed that it did happen. I believe Szarrukin knew that but he took issue with the fact that they only showed burned/murdered babies that still had heads? Correct me if I'm wrong
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Oct 12, 2023 17:57
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:I've been searching a bit over Twitter, AP, Reuters and few ME Journalists and I have not seen a single officials statement or plans aside from vague their armed forces will be invading Gaza and it'll be long tough fight. They've definitely repeatedly mentioned dismantling Hamas, which I'm sure they'll attempt to do by killing more civilians than they ever have before. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/idf-chief-admits-failures-and-promises-investigation-vows-to-dismantle-hamas/amp/
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Oct 12, 2023 18:01
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I'm a bit worried about tomorrow, being Friday. Friday being the Muslim day of prayer. During the Arab Spring, for example, a morning prayer was commonly followed by street protests, followed by a crackdown. People in Gaza aren't going to be in the streets but what about the West Bank, or southern Beirut, or Baghdad, Paris, New York etc. I think there's plenty of potential for attacks and violence in sympathy of Palestinians, and also for crackdowns against peaceful protests which could spiral out of control. People all over seem uncommonly riled up by this.
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Oct 12, 2023 18:03
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Lord Harbor posted:Has Israel made any demands yet? When the US decides to invade or attack some random country, they'll usually at least create a pretext where they make some demand (Afghanistan must hand over Bin Laden, Iraq must open up to weapon inspectors), and then when it's refused (or not) they use it as a causus beli for the invasion. Has Israel made any statements about what they want from Palestine, or are they just dropping any pretense that the bombings aren't the point? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67082351 quote:Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said every Hamas member was "a dead man" after the first meeting of his country's emergency government.
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Oct 12, 2023 18:03
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