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Failed Imagineer posted:https://twitter.com/richimedhurst/status/1712541240317936067?t=EZ7YnZDP53mXAhDze6sWMQ&s=19 Not to set off another semantics fight but it's pretty misleading to say that the airports are destroyed. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67093081: "[Syrian] state media said runways had been damaged at both Damascus and Aleppo airports and flights would be diverted to Latakia, a city in north-west Syria."
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Oct 12, 2023 20:28
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I might be misremembering but I'm pretty sure Israel has bombed Syria tons of times. I even remember them bombing airports before as well? Specifically to destroy shipments of arms from iran
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Oct 12, 2023 20:33
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Majorian posted:The person you cited there is an obscure twitch streamer who posted cringe in the early hours of the attacks; I'm not sure she's particularly representative of the left as a whole or even the twitter left. FWIW, and this is kind of an aside, but that person is far from an obscure twitch streamer, they're probably the most famous Muslim twitch streamers in the English speaking areas and probably up there near the top of the overall politics streams as well.
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Oct 12, 2023 20:35
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smug n stuff posted:Not to set off another semantics fight but it's pretty misleading to say that the airports are destroyed. Did they or didn't they cut off (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 12, 2023 20:37
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mannerup posted:ICC makes their first statement on the matter of war crimes carried out They don't clarify it but the first few lines imply that they want to prosecute Israelis who attack the Gaza Strip as well, which seems like a nice idea that will go nowhere because they admit themselves that they have no way to arrest people under suspicion other than to hope that someone else does it.
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Oct 12, 2023 20:37
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Toxic Mental posted:FWIW, and this is kind of an aside, but that person is far from an obscure twitch streamer, they're probably the most famous Muslim twitch streamers in the English speaking areas and probably up there near the top of the overall politics streams as well. I think Hasan Piker probably beats her in terms of public awareness, but I take your point - I shouldn't have called her obscure, that just shows my ignorance.
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Oct 12, 2023 20:41
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smug n stuff posted:Not to set off another semantics fight but it's pretty misleading to say that the airports are destroyed. Richard Medhurst is one of the worst of the serial propagandists who has spent the last few years monetising the suffering of the Palestinian people. He's never to be seen as a credible source on anything. Even if the events are correct, there will be layers of cherrypicking, spin, and selective reporting. He's one of those ghouls to be seen as a red flag about anyone interacting with him.
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Oct 12, 2023 20:49
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 20:49
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Majorian posted:I think Hasan Piker probably beats her in terms of public awareness, but I take your point - I shouldn't have called her obscure, that just shows my ignorance. Yeah she was one of Hasan's orbiters for a while, I think she was a moderator of his chat for a long time as well. She definitely has sway and a decent sized following and people listen to what she says and boost her message as well, so I think it's mostly fair to say those opinions aren't fringe, at least for online leftist circles. She's not Hasan-sized but yeah, definitely up there. Probably top 10.
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Oct 12, 2023 20:49
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Has a winning country ever been trialed for war crimes in an international court
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Oct 12, 2023 21:05
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https://twitter.com/mck_beth/status/1712557991663403325 Hamas gave an english language briefing (unprecedented according to the above guardian reporter). They deny targeting civilians and say they will treat their civilian hostages in accordance with international law.
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Oct 12, 2023 21:05
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Kinda hard to say you'll treat prisoners according to international law when just days ago you threatened to execute them if your demands aren't met. I think they may be getting a bit nervous.
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Oct 12, 2023 21:10
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 21:10
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Zzulu posted:Has a winning country ever been trialed for war crimes in an international court Well surely the folks who annihilated two cities with nuclear weapons were… oh… never mind…
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Oct 12, 2023 21:15
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Majorian posted:I haven't seen anyone here saying that Hamas' attack was justified at all. There were pages of discussion about it. fool of sound posted:You in 1986: The African National Congress should simply stop their blatant terrorist actions against the innocent Afrikaners living near black townships if they want the moral superiority over the apartheid government.
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Oct 12, 2023 21:15
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mannerup posted:damage control for western audiences to mitigate the atrocities they committed, the fact they are playing public relations over this shows they didn't expect the level of vitriol from their deliberate actions Honestly from reading the various stuff. i think they clearly did plan alot of the killings/kidnapping raids in broad strokes but when they hit little to no resistence, they kept going and going, then you get all the photos and posing and worse because you have bunch of dumb psychos who fully expected to be shot down 20 minuetes arnt dead and get to have a vegence ride. I dont think they legit understood how loving bad it would be internationally and now higherups are panicking because their boys decided to use AK on kids and pose with murdered naked women made the international community bay for their blood and let Bibi and friends do whatever hosed up ethnic cleansing they want. also they have foreign hostages including a dozen or so american(14 i think) so yeah, they hosed up badly and shits gonna get way way worse.
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Oct 12, 2023 21:18
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zoux posted:https://twitter.com/mck_beth/status/1712557991663403325 This is probably the smartest play to be honest. I think everyone is on the same page with the 'this went way farther than expect' thing and trying to deescalate and draw attention to the atrocities being inflicted on Gaza is pretty much the only chance they have of shutting things down with the way things are now. With the way the international community is at the moment I don't know if it will do much but I'm not sure there are many options otherwise. Pretty much the only possible check on Israel is drawing enough ire internationally or internally.
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Oct 12, 2023 21:18
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Count Roland posted:Kinda hard to say you'll treat prisoners according to international law when just days ago you threatened to execute them if your demands aren't met. Even harder to do so when even having civilian hostages is a violation of international law. I do agree with the assessments that this is one of a few indicators (along with statements from Iran and Hezbollah indicating they were caught off guard themselves) that Hamas both overperformed as far as their operational goals and underestimated international backlash.
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Oct 12, 2023 21:18
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Count Roland posted:Kinda hard to say you'll treat prisoners according to international law when just days ago you threatened to execute them if your demands aren't met. To be fair the demand was "Stop bombing buildings without warning people" and they evidently didn't go through with it, seeing as Israel is still bombing people without warning, and they aren't livestreaming executions (as far as I'm aware.) I dont think they'll submit to the hostages-for-food/water proposal because it literally reinforces starvation as a tool to corral Gaza.
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Oct 12, 2023 21:23
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Majorian posted:I haven't seen anyone here saying that Hamas' attack was justified at all. Similarly, there were also Anti-Israel (I would not term them "Pro-Palestinian" for the timing as mentioned above) rallies held in major cities around the world with amplified voices from various fringe/far left organizations and media such as The Gray Zone.
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Oct 12, 2023 21:25
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Count Roland posted:I'm a bit worried about tomorrow, being Friday. It'll certainly give the whole right-wing movement incredible amounts of power if any of that happens, especially in Western Europe.
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Oct 12, 2023 21:26
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zoux posted:Hamas gave an english language briefing (unprecedented according to the above guardian reporter). They deny targeting civilians and say they will treat their civilian hostages in accordance with international law. hamas starting to figure out israel would now happily firebomb every last child in the gaza strip into gore and bonemeal to get at they asses and they're starting to nervously workshop it dumb motherfuckers get their rorscharch in prison moment all going "wait a minute i thought we were the insane radicals. oh no, wait what happens when we're both the insane radicals" you die. you get bitchmade into shredded meat after israel blows the limbs off every innocent palestinian caught between you and them. or behind you and them. or just generally in any direction
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Oct 12, 2023 21:32
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 21:34
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Civilized Fishbot posted:There were pages of discussion about it. Majorian posted:The person you cited there is an obscure twitch streamer who posted cringe in the early hours of the attacks; I'm not sure she's particularly representative of the left as a whole or even the twitter left. Literal pages. And I opened Instagram and started flipping through reels to turn the ol brain off for a bit, and saw socialistsloots (another mid teir at best leftist ) doing a "but Israel kills more civilians" about it. https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyOvOA8OzQ7/?igshid=NzZhOTFlYzFmZQ== It is very much a real sentiment among online, western leftists that it was somewhere between okay and good for Hamas to kill civilians, or that you just don't talk about it because Israel is worse and Palestinians are fighting their oppressors. An, look, I went through a dipshit phase as a younger person and I'm wary of having things online flung at me to get me into a "leftist bad" mindset. In this case, I found that video 100% organically because the insta algorithm knows I usually stop for her videos. I consider myself a leftist. All I got out of that video was basically sidestepping and whatabouting civilians dying.
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Oct 12, 2023 21:35
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Would be interesting to read the actual briefing. My impression was that the attack was primarily intended to sabotage the peace agreements, but confirmation would be good.
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Oct 12, 2023 21:36
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i fly airplanes posted:Not only has there been pages of discussions in this thread supporting this viewpoint, this was also immediately after the attack and before Israelis called reservists and planned a counteroffensive onto Gaza. The conflict has been ongoing for most of our lifetimes. Pro Palestinian protests being organized before Israel announced a response that anyone could see coming is not indicative of anything except basic pattern recognition.
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Oct 12, 2023 21:37
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Majorian posted:From what I've seen, the "what else are they supposed to do?" posts have been referring to Palestinians resorting to violence to achieve liberation - not committing atrocities against civilians. FoS has been here arguing at length that atrocities against civilians are a valid tactic, this is just one such post: fool of sound posted:Do you think that the ANC in South Africa shouldn't have used car bombs? Shouldn't have attacked embassies and government workers, or whites who lived near and used black townships for cheap labor? Do you think that, without those attacks, the white lead government would have relented on their own, or that other nations would have been sickened enough by their death squads to begin breaking economic ties with them? Do you earnestly believe that there is a peaceful path to liberation for Palestine, given Israel's unwillingness to negotiate with them in good faith and near constant interference in their elections? And he was far from the only one making those arguments over the course of this week. Conversely, can you point to one post in this thread that has ever argued the Palestinians are not justified in using violence to achieve liberation? I've seen you make this claim at least twice now that posters aren't justifying killing civilians, but rather making counter arguments against those who say the Palestinians shouldn't use violence at all and not once have I seen anyone actually make that argument. Where are all these posts condemning Palestinians for using violence at all? There would have to be quite a volume of them given the frequency of the posts you're claiming are just rebuttals to that idea. I would be surprised if anyone in this thread doesn't think Palestinians are justified in using violence. I haven't seen one post saying otherwise or complaining about the parts of the attacks that targeted the IDF or even civilian infrastructure. Why do condemnations of massacring civilians seem to prompt these supposed rebuttals to posts no one is making? It seems to me you're bending over backwards to charitably read something defensible into posts that are abhorrent. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 12, 2023 21:39
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Currently, here in Chicago, tomorrow, there is going to be a pro-Israel resolution pushed by Alderwoman Debra Silverstein, which I feel doesn't acknowledge the harm done by Israel to the Palestinians. I have called and sent emails to my Alderman opposing the resolution. I feel impotent and helpless but I feel that it is the least I can do to get involved at a local level. Here is a script that people can use if they live in Chicago but I am sure it can be adapted for similar resolutions in your hometown. https://tinyurl.com/SilversteinResolution I feel that literally nothing I do matters one way or another but one thing I can do is push back on the almost total shutdown of all debate on this issue by defenders of Israel when it comes to anybody in power. I do not believe in conspiracy theories about "Jews control the media." It ain't about that. The Israel lobby does not speak for all Jewish people and frequently speaks for non-Jewish Zionists who are also antisemitic or believe in preposterous things like the rapture. No. Instead the Israel lobby controls the conversation rhetorically, through group think and inertia. Not being sufficiently pro-Israel kills the career of any public figure. By pushing back against this resolution, I feel that space can be made in the discourse for the pro-palestinian or pro-peace and justice side.
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Oct 12, 2023 21:45
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In UK news, it's the whole "never answer the loving question" game with politicians. Always a variation of: Do you condemn Israel bombing innocent civilians? "Israel has a right to defend itself" That's not what I asked. Do you think the IDF is justified in bombing innocent civilians? Isn't this a war crime? "The atrocities that happened two days ago must be accounted for and we stand by Israel that must be allowed to defend itself" Ad loving nauseum.... I'm taking a break.
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Oct 12, 2023 21:45
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Main Paineframe posted:
Israel/Palestine: yeah, maybe the IDF are exaggerating a bit. i don't loving care. The Sean fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 21:46
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mannerup posted:posted earlier about a few countries outright banning demonstrations, here is how the NYPD is preparing for tomorrow in New York. Meanwhile we're keeping tabs on relatives and friends living in Dearborn, Michigan and wondering how long it is going to take a hyped up Christian Zionist to lose their poo poo. It didn't happen in 2001 but the world is a lot more violent now.
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Oct 12, 2023 21:46
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 21:53
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Zoeb posted:Currently, here in Chicago, tomorrow, there is going to be a pro-Israel resolution pushed by Alderwoman Debra Silverstein, which I feel doesn't acknowledge the harm done by Israel to the Palestinians. I have called and sent emails to my Alderman opposing the resolution. I feel impotent and helpless but I feel that it is the least I can do to get involved at a local level. I think the Israeli lobby is in some ways like the gun lobby. They're very well funded, which tends to give lobbying groups outsized influence, but more importantly they represent a position with minority support but a disproportionate number of single issue voters. There's way way more people who won't vote for a politician based on the perceived lack of support of Israel (real or imagined) than there are who won't vote for a politician based on being insufficiently critical of the Israeli occupation.
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Oct 12, 2023 22:05
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Jarmak posted:FoS has been here arguing at length that atrocities against civilians are a valid tactic, this is just one such post: My point is that they're an inevitable tactic when a just cause is severe and pressing, and the power imbalance so great. Do you think that Nat Turner's revolt in the US was damning? e: To be clear I think that attacks on valid military targets are self apparently ethically better. Or to be more clear, Hamas is acting unethically, but because of the nature of the conflict, I don't think condemning both them and israel together does the situation justice. fool of sound fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 22:05
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fool of sound posted:My point is that they're an inevitable tactic when a just cause is severe and pressing, and the power imbalance so great. And, might I add, when all legal/nonviolent routes to liberation have been closed off by the group in power.
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Oct 12, 2023 22:14
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fool of sound posted:My point is that they're an inevitable tactic when a just cause is severe and pressing, and the power imbalance so great. Do you think that Nat Turner's revolt in the US was damning? Since you keep bringing it up, I have serious questions about the strategic efficacy of Turner's rebellion. There is a difference between "understandable" and "good idea". see also the rebuttal earlier in the thread about the ANC And indeed, while the Hamas leadership response to the sequence of events remains a bit muddled, they don't seem to be going full throttle on "yes we ordered massacres and we'd slaughter civilians again". This suggests to me that *they* might have some questions about strategic efficacy too.
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Oct 12, 2023 22:16
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fool of sound posted:Or to be more clear, Hamas is acting unethically, but because of the nature of the conflict, I don't think condemning both them and israel together does the situation justice. Didn't realize you believed this. Does this mean you think Nat Turner was acting unethically too? EDIT: I agree with the whole post below, it's just surprising after the earlier comparisons of Hamas to the ANC and Nat Turner. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 22:17
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Since you keep bringing it up, I have serious questions about the strategic efficacy of Turner's rebellion. There is a difference between "understandable" and "good idea". see also the rebuttal earlier in the thread about the ANC Yeah I don't think that the tactic in this case is good or effective. I don't think Hamas are a good organization, I think that they're a pretty terrible organization that Israel has actively brought to power, but now that they're the main resistance things are wat they are. Civilized Fishbot posted:Didn't realize you believed this. Does this mean you think Nat Turner was acting unethically too? Sometimes. When they were killing slaveholders, no. When they were killing white sharecroppers yes. I don't think that ethicality plays a huge role in resistance to something as desperate as American slavery or Palestinian genocide. Civilized Fishbot posted:EDIT: I agree with the whole post below, it's just surprising after the earlier comparisons of Hamas to the ANC and Nat Turner. I was more aggressive about it than I should have been because I was reading twitter coverage and angry. fool of sound fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 22:18
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Jarmak posted:There's way way more people who won't vote for a politician based on the perceived lack of support of Israel (real or imagined) than there are who won't vote for a politician based on being insufficiently critical of the Israeli occupation. Yes that is a good point and I think that is very true. I know I am getting a little off topic with this analogy but it is also likely to be true, to a lesser extent, about the embargo in Cuba. So many single issue supporters, who happen to live in a swing state, support the embargo that it is completely untenable for a politician or even a non political public figure to hold any other position. Obama tried to do the bare minimum to normalize relations with Cuba and then Trump took Florida by a landslide and Florida is now effectively a red state.
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Oct 12, 2023 22:20
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I maintain that Hamas had already hit on a good strategy that they had the power to repeat to a much greater degree here - capturing soldiers. Creating another hostage crisis would've been a very effective strategy if they hadn't also performed atrocities so unspeakably horrible that almost everyone in Israel now wants nothing more than to see every member of Hamas (and in many cases, the Gazans they see as collectively responsible) perish in agony. And also alienated many international voices who would've otherwise spoken out against excessive Israeli reprisals. And also made it much, much harder for anyone still on Gaza's side to argue that Israel's response is wildly disproportionate.
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Oct 12, 2023 22:21
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