[Ukraine] ahegao to the poles

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] ahegao to the poles

What is the most powerful flying bug? This poll is closed.
🦋	15	3.71%
🦇	115	28.47%
🪰	12	2.97%
🐦	67	16.58%
dragonfly	94	23.27%
🦟	14	3.47%
🐝	87	21.53%
Total:	404 votes

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Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Didn't seem to stop the Iran deals. He probably changed his mind on a couple of things over the past 2 years.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 20:14

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# ? Jun 12, 2024 20:34

Phigs: Jan 23, 2019

Nix Panicus posted:

Your island is deliberately trying to commit suicide though

Plus hurting themselves by refusing to trade with others is clearly a fetish at this point.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 20:26

supersnowman: Oct 3, 2012

Jel Shaker posted:

or not, putin is extremely cagey and won�t give away anything without complete control of the situation or people involved

i remember the last time they were giving out free buks there was an international airline disaster

Remember how fast airlines stopped flying over Russia in 2022 to be sure they would not "support Russia" with airspace usage fee?

Pretty fast compared to stopping flying airliners over a conflict zone where planes are actually getting shot out of the sky.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 21:04

BULBASAUR: Apr 6, 2009; Soiled Meat

dk2m posted:

there was truly a time when Russian leaders not only accepted the West, but actively listened to our ideas and tried to reform their whole way of life according to our recommendations. that was so disastrous because of how we took advantage of their vulnerability instead of genuinely creating a global apparatus that could have accommodated their interests.

Its the worst that relations have been in my memory. The bridge is very much burnt and I'm not sure there is any willingness to work together for at least a generation. Probably more. The pivot to the east is well underway. I suppose it was inevitable. My only question at this point is how long Europe will tolerate following the hegemony's orders before cutting its own deals with Russia.

VoicesCanBe posted:

A country destroyed by geopolitical marksmanship.

This was always the outcome, no matter which side wins. Of course suggesting an end to the conflict in the west was anathema until more recently.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 21:09

mila kunis: Jun 10, 2011

seeing a couple of people i know get short, sharp lessons on who's on whose side, and who's in solidarity with whom re: ukraine and palestine has been funny

# ? Oct 12, 2023 21:13

Bar Crow: Oct 10, 2012

BULBASAUR posted:

Its the worst that relations have been in my memory. The bridge is very much burnt and I'm not sure there is any willingness to work together for at least a generation. Probably more. The pivot to the east is well underway. I suppose it was inevitable.

Never underestimate the Russian urge to throw away their country for the approval of Western liberals.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 21:13

Buck Wildman: Mar 30, 2010; I am Metango, Galactic Governor

poppin in to say lol at the thread title gw

# ? Oct 12, 2023 21:16

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Bar Crow posted:

Never underestimate the Russian urge to throw away their country for the approval of Western liberals.

Russian liberals sure.

There's also those that see Trump as their guy, for obvious reasons.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 21:16

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Russia has never been as Americanized as it is right now. Don't know how that influences relations in the future, but it would actually take work to roll the clock back to the 90s.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 21:18

Subvisual Haze: Nov 22, 2003; The building was on fire and it wasn't my fault.

Bar Crow posted:

Never underestimate the Russian urge to throw away their country for the approval of Western liberals.

The lib is the same creature everywhere. They are motivated by the same dream of a prestigious global NGO job.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 21:25

Xaris: Jul 25, 2006; Lucky there's a family guy
Lucky there's a man who positively can do
All the things that make us
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Buck Wildman posted:

poppin in to say lol at the thread title gw

# ? Oct 12, 2023 21:26

Nothus: Feb 22, 2001; Buglord

Buck Wildman posted:

poppin in to say lol at the thread title gw

new war, who this?

# ? Oct 12, 2023 21:32

Weka: May 5, 2019; Can't post for 3 hours!

gradenko_2000 posted:

you have no idea how happy this question made me as I ran over to my bookshelf to pull out my copy of When Titans Clashed

for additional context, let's look at a map:

Warsaw is on the western side of the Vistula River, and the Bug and Narew rivers frame its northern approaches. There's no way to get into the city without crossing at least one of these rivers, and approaching from the north is going to take two or all three.

so Glantz's account places 2d Guards Cavalry Corps in Siedlce on 28 July, one month and one week into the Bagration campaign, and then they get slammed by four Panzer divisions.

so it's combination of the Soviets having driven to the end of their logistical tail, combined with a determined German defence, followed by terrain considerations that make breaking into a Warsaw require just about an entirely separate operation.

One minor correction, you seem to be conflating Second Guards Cavalry Corp with (units of) the Second Tank Army. The quote you provided doesn't involve the former being attacked although it seems like they were withdrawn around the same time as the latter. Glantz here also places Second Guards Cavalry Corp as fighting for Siedlce not in it, which may seem like a minor difference until you look at a rail map (below).

https://tankfront-ru.translate.goog/ussr/kk/gvkk02.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp&_x_tr_sch=http posted:

August 20, 1944, by Directive of the Supreme Command Headquarters No. 302007 dated August 20, 1944, the corps was transferred from the troops of the 1st Belorussian Front to the command of the commander of the 3rd Ukrainian Front. The transfer by rail was to take place from Brest from 18.00 on August 26 to the area of the station. Separate no later than September 12.

There's also something about all the armies in the area bar the Second Tank Army being redirected to take the Bug crossings north of Warsaw sometime in early August, which has played into the 'Stalin abandoned the Warsaw uprising' claims, but as you say, military necessity.

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Oct 12, 2023 21:50

Weka: May 5, 2019; Can't post for 3 hours!

Nix Panicus posted:

This is why Ukraine lost the war a long time ago. Even if they somehow prevail militarily and regain all of their lost territory the country is still in debt beyond what it can ever hope to repay, especially with its war ravaged economy and losses in labor, and the absolute best case scenario is permanent thralldom to western capital.

Well you could argue the best case scenario is becoming part of Russia.

Lostconfused posted:

But also Russia is ran by a bunch of capitalists. That's why they're doing capital investment in Iran instead of just exporting domestic goods to foreign markets.

A bit of economic development in Iran makes sense from a geopolitics perspective. Their economy is in the toilet and supporting it enough for the current government to stay in power makes sense.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 21:50

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

ЗеРада posted:

🔥 Fortetsia Avdeevka - military aspect

In terms of military planning, the offensive of the Russian troops on the over-fortified Avdeevka demonstrates a change in the tactics of offensive operations.

The Russians have been hoarding shells for a long time and preparing, really saving. Early in the morning of October 10, fire launched from all barrels + MLRS, planning bombs and helicopters. Reports from the field state that the amount poured into the AFU position exceeds Soviet standards, the so-called "fire crest". Obviously, reconnaissance was conducted for a long time and in advance - they knew where to strike. The work of the AFU artillery has been significantly complicated.

Three stages of the operation are viewed:

1️⃣ Taking under fire control the supply lines of the AFU grouping in Avdeevka and the creation of a semi-kettle;

2️⃣Expansion of the "wings" from the north and south of the city to prevent the AFU from cutting them off;

3️⃣ Simultaneous pressure/compression along the perimeter of the semi-kettle.

Does it remind you of anything? This is Wagner's plan to capture Bakhmut. It was not by chance that there were rumors that former Wagnerians were involved in the development of the capture of Avdeevka☝️

It can be said that in Avdeevka, the Russian troops are training to carry out an offensive of the operational and tactical level with minimal losses of personnel. A kind of Bakhmut without "unlimited" convicts. There are a lot of barrels concentrated at one point of the front, a lot of shells, cutting off supplies and pressure around the perimeter of the semi-kettle.

Let's see how the Ukrainian General Staff will respond and whether Zelensky will repeat his mistake "Fortetsi Bakhmut" in Avdeevka.

The political situation is much worse now than it was back then. But if Ze demands to hold Avdeevka like Bakhmut, it is fraught with big problems☝🏻

_{(from t.me/ZeRada1/16268, via tgsa)}

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:07

Zoeb: Oct 8, 2023; Dislike me? Don't spend $10 on a title. Donate to the Palestinian Red Crescent or Doctors Without Borders
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I am conflicted.

Between the two sides, I'd rather Ukraine maintained its sovereignty than Russia be allowed to annex all or part of Ukraine. They should be allowed to join NATO and the EU if that is the preference of their public or stay independent. I say this acknowledging that the US, who is Ukraine's primary ally didn't respect the sovereignty of Latin American countries such as Cuba who preferred to be communist or some degree of socialist. I don't think Russia had a right to invade, even to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO or the west in general. I think this invasion is a travesty and that Ukrainians are being murdered by Russian conquest.

But I am deeply disturbed by the Nazi symbols and neo-Nazi units and apologist for Nazis. I don't believe that Ukraine should be expected to be a perfect victim and in the event that the US was invaded by space aliens, it would probably be survivalist chuds, who I don't like very much, who would do a lot of the fighting. It is not merely a matter of convenience and maximizing what is available for the war effort. From the extent of the usage of these Nazi symbols and the presence of memorials to Nazis in Ukraine and in Ukrainian communities, there is a deeply entrenched historical revisionism wrapped up in Ukrainian culture that frames the nazis as liberators from the Soviet Union and could lead to more antisemitism. I am also uncomfortable with the bloodlust or calling Russians "orcs." That leads to some dark places.

We have to think about the next war too. This is a serious problem because while the US arms Ukraine and assists in the war, let's suppose the US and Ukrainians win and get everything they want. They drive the Russians out. Russia lets Ukraine go. Who are the people celebrated as heroes then? Are they the people with black suns and swastikas? What do they do next? The US has an ugly history of arming monsters, to screw over the Soviet Union or Russia only for those monsters, once the war is over to be set upon the world. Those guns we are giving Ukrainian Nazis don't just cease to exist when the war is over. The people in charge of the new Ukraine could be the Nazis we armed. They could turn the country into a military junta. We need to be more careful and judicious about this.

I don't want Russia to win but as someone who would never join the military, I cannot condone sending our military in to any conflict that I myself would not fight for. I also do not think that Russia should be capitulated to as it would only be a matter of time before they demand something else and invade. So I am not sure what should be done. But I am very concerned about the way this is being covered, about the way that people are being censored on social media for being "pro-Russia" or for being "misleading" when they are against the prevailing narrative. I believe that questions about Ukraine are questions that reasonable people acting in good faith can disagree on without being labeled as Russian bots or Russian agents. Ukraine does have a Nazi problem. (tbf, so does Russia and most other western countries including America) There is no objective scoreboard so someone should make a reasonable case for why Russia is winning without being banned for misinformation. The pentagon and .gov sites are not objective. They are not golden tablets handed down from the creator of the universe and should not be treated as automatically objectively true. There can be objectively true reports that contradict .gov sites and US based media.

I feel bad for any kids growing up in this mess. I feel bad for the noncombatants and maybe I even feel bad for Russian conscripts who would rather not be in Ukraine. This is a tragedy.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:14

Weka: May 5, 2019; Can't post for 3 hours!

Looked up the IMF recommendation for Ukraine to collect more tax and, lol.

Gavin Gray, head of IMF mission in Kiev, October 11 posted:

the authorities should focus on strengthening the opportunities to collect revenues, both through taxes and customs duties.

https://english.nv.ua/business/imf-s-assessment-of-ukrainian-economy-and-governance-interview-50359663.html

Kristalina Georgieva, Managing Director, IMF, October 12 posted:

We have completed our first review in June with high marks for the actions of the Ukrainian authorities in raising revenues, collecting taxes. At that time, 36 percent of taxes to GDP.

https://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2023/10/12/tr101223-transcript-of-imf-managing-directors-press-briefing-on-the-global-policy-agenda

Dang, Gavin, what do you want, half the economy going to taxes coupled with the already slashed social spending?

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:14

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Ukraine is a dictatorship under martial law. Nobody in charge gives a poo poo about what the people want.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:18

Virtual Russian: Sep 15, 2008

Zoeb posted:

words

You do not in fact have to hand it to the chuds. They are far more likely to start killing people they don't like, look at Katrina. An individual with a ton of guns is not an effective combatant. Fighting requires organization and co-operation, as well as a willingness to subjugate yourself to the will of others. They would at best act like a small bunker to be avoided, or just shot from space or whatever because this is a fantasy.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:27

Weka: May 5, 2019; Can't post for 3 hours!

Zoeb posted:

I am conflicted.

Between the two sides, I'd rather Ukraine maintained its sovereignty

Ukraine lost it's sovereignty when America backed a nazi led coup in 2014. Regardless of all that, I'd suggest you focus on what's best for Ukrainian citizens, not the Ukrainian state.
American foreign policy is almost universally deeply evil and it's a pretty good rule of thumb that it's goals should be opposed. As has just been discussed, the USA has no interest in preserving Ukrainian sovereignty but only seeks to weaken and isolate Russia.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:27

Starsfan: Sep 29, 2007; This is what happens when you disrespect Cam Neely

Zoeb posted:

I am conflicted.

Between the two sides, I'd rather Ukraine maintained its sovereignty than Russia be allowed to annex all or part of Ukraine. They should be allowed to join NATO and the EU if that is the preference of their public or stay independent. I say this acknowledging that the US, who is Ukraine's primary ally didn't respect the sovereignty of Latin American countries such as Cuba who preferred to be communist or some degree of socialist. I don't think Russia had a right to invade, even to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO or the west in general. I think this invasion is a travesty and that Ukrainians are being murdered by Russian conquest.

What do you say to the arguments that Ukraine had it's sovereignty taken from it in 2014 when a democratically elected government was stripped of power by a American backed coup and replaced with a puppet regime? Have you considered whether the majority of Ukrainians actually want to join the EU and NATO or is that just the will of the regime and their western backers?

Do you think that the Russian majority areas of the country were entitled to exercise their own preference to break away from the state that turns against them and seeks to erase their culture and language?

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:28

ContinuityNewTimes: Dec 30, 2010; Я выдуман напрочь

Personally I would like the people of Eastern Ukraine to not be under the boot of a Ukrainian government that wants their culture removed from their borders

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:29

Zoeb: Oct 8, 2023; Dislike me? Don't spend $10 on a title. Donate to the Palestinian Red Crescent or Doctors Without Borders
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Starsfan posted:

What do you say to the arguments that Ukraine had it's sovereignty taken from it in 2014 when a democratically elected government was stripped of power by a American backed coup and replaced with a puppet regime? Have you considered whether the majority of Ukrainians actually want to join the EU and NATO or is that just the will of the regime and their western backers?

Do you think that the Russian majority areas of the country were entitled to exercise their own preference to break away from the state that turns against them and seeks to erase their culture and language?

I remember the Euromaidan protests. The former president was a crook and I can't imagine all of those people were CIA agents or otherwise on the payroll. There was legitimate and organic criticism of the Ukrainian government. The US probably benefited sure but they could not have made an impact at all had there not already been a pre-existing rejection of the government by the Ukrainian public.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:33

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

The simplest moral position is that Ukraine surrenders as soon as possible to stop the ongoing loss of life.

Ukrainian officials stated multiple times that they will ethnically cleanse the regions that are currently occupied by Russia if they ever get their way.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:34

Xaris: Jul 25, 2006; Lucky there's a family guy
Lucky there's a man who positively can do
All the things that make us
Laugh and cry

ContinuityNewTimes posted:

Personally I would like the people of Eastern Ukraine to not be under the boot of a Ukrainian government that wants their culture removed from their borders

you could even go farther and say that the ethnic minority residents in the east are/were being genocided by the State after the US-coup, according to some definitions of the word.

but yes it's a shitshow and the only moral option was for peace. which the world's biggest power and owner of the petrodollar could have easily made happen if it wanted to. infact, it didn't want peace to happen and intentionally sabotaged peace efforts for a new proxy forever war

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:34

Crazypoops: Jul 17, 2017

Just popping in to say :kiss:

to the thread title

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:34

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Zoeb posted:

I remember the Euromaidan protests. The former president was a crook and I can't imagine all of those people were CIA agents or otherwise on the payroll. There was legitimate and organic criticism of the Ukrainian government. The US probably benefited sure but they could not have made an impact at all had there not already been a pre-existing rejection of the government by the Ukrainian public.

Then look at the votes cast for Poroshenko and Zelensky. How satisfied do those votes appear with the post Maidan government? What campaign promise did Zelensky run on?

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:36

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

Zoeb posted:

I remember the Euromaidan protests. The former president was a crook and I can't imagine all of those people were CIA agents or otherwise on the payroll. There was legitimate and organic criticism of the Ukrainian government. The US probably benefited sure but they could not have made an impact at all had there not already been a pre-existing rejection of the government by the Ukrainian public.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4048494

edit: Even ignoring this (which you shouldn't, since it's the whole reason Euromaidan ended in a coup), the idea that "well there were some crowds of people protesting" implies anything about "The Will of the Ukrainian People" is laughable. It's the same bullshit reasoning that leads people to think that "The People of Cuba" oppose the government because some people did a protest.

Ytlaya has issued a correction as of 22:38 on Oct 12, 2023

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:36

Zoeb: Oct 8, 2023; Dislike me? Don't spend $10 on a title. Donate to the Palestinian Red Crescent or Doctors Without Borders
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Lostconfused posted:

The simplest moral position is that Ukraine surrenders as soon as possible to stop the ongoing loss of life.

No. I am sorry. I simply do not agree with that position. The Russian invasion was a war crime and countries should not be invading or conquering each other anymore. It was wrong when the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and it wrong for Russia to invade Ukraine.

Lostconfused posted:

Ukrainian officials stated multiple times that they will ethnically cleanse the regions that are currently occupied by Russia if they ever get their way.

That would be very bad and should be opposed and prevented but I am not familiar with the statements you are talking about.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:37

BadOptics: Sep 11, 2012

Lostconfused posted:

Then look at the votes cast for Poroshenko and Zelensky. How satisfied do those votes appear with the post Maidan government? What campaign promise did Zelensky run on?

What kind of crazy person are you to bring up important historical context instead of good old wholesome vibes?!

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:37

Xaris: Jul 25, 2006; Lucky there's a family guy
Lucky there's a man who positively can do
All the things that make us
Laugh and cry

Zoeb posted:

I remember the Euromaidan protests. The former president was a crook and I can't imagine all of those people were CIA agents or otherwise on the payroll. There was legitimate and organic criticism of the Ukrainian government. The US probably benefited sure but they could not have made an impact at all had there not already been a pre-existing rejection of the government by the Ukrainian public.

That's actually wrong, they had much much more hand in driving it. Not everyone were directly CIA but it was setup and funded well in advance by US. The primary driver is that Yanukovich was rejecting an IMF requirement to raise the pension age, reduce benefits, privatize energy at the time. Russia swooped in around that time and offered a more favorable loan, that's when the shitshow really kicked off because that really really upset the status quote of increasing privatization and austerity.

It's the same reason we invaded Iraq, Libya, etc. Saddam was trying to sell oil in euros before US invaded them, likewise Gaddafi was trying to sell oil outside the petrodollar and then we bombed him to smithereens shortly after

quote:

Speaking of designs, lets talk about Ukraine. Cause what they probably think of is Ukraine from 2014-on. Brave, embattled Ukraine. Maiden Square Ukraine. Fighting to be free. Huddled masses all using laptops to do revolutions. Lets talk about that Maiden revolution. Here's an interesting fact you might not know about the Maiden revolution. It had all it's infrastructure set-up before anything actually happened, before any protests started. The general way the protests were going to go, the general architecture of how this uprising was going to proceed, was all in place already. You want to know who put it in place?

USAID, that is such a wing of the CIA that we haven't even pretended otherwise since 1950s, the National Endowment for Democracy, likewise something no one even bothers to pretend it isn't, and various wings of the Omidyar Group. Now you hear Omidyar, you might think of an episode with Ken Silverstein, formerly of The Intercept, at the time was convinced that The Intercept was a CIA honeypot: that what it did was attract whistleblowers and sit on as much information that was brought to them as possible and get them arrested, and it also attracted people who fancy themselves as 'serious leftist journalists' and then policed the limits of what accepted 'leftist journalism' meant. It cut it in to ways: it sure no one leaked anything too explosive, and as the "premiere leftist publication" and made sure no one could get anything actually left published. It also ensured Jeremy Scahill could make documentaries wearing different hats from many different regions sitting on a railing of a boat going into different channels, it was excellent for that. Well, the man who owns and runs The Intercept is one Pierre Omidyar, you know, a member of the PayPal mafia: tight with Elon Musk and Peter Thiel, and early stockholder in Amazon, so tight with Jeff Bezos.

You know, the people you want to have political associations with when your business is going to be "liberating countries from under the thumb of post-soviet evil". And in addition to USAID and NED, Omidyar got into pre-Maiden Ukraine and set up a number of concerns, one he called 'Center UA', a vague ill-defined project to amplify 'the voices of otherwise voiceless Ukrainians'. Now what do you think that means when they say "the Ukrainians that aren't being heard"?

Well, what we're talking about is Nazis, what we're talking about is Banderites. So along with Center UA, Omidyar also set up a regime-change media network called Hromadske, that was broadcasting pro-overthrow, pro-western, vaguely 'free speech', vaguely democratic, propaganda the months before anything happened at Maiden. And then, my favorite, before anything happened at Maiden, he set up a fact checking service for western news agencies who were going to be sending people into the Ukraine. So when CNN, or Reuters, or AP, has a reporter come in, and that story gets submitted for fact-checking, that fact-checking is being done by people who set up the fake revolution.

And the fake-revolution, as I have just alluded to, backed not so much by photogenic young college hippies that you saw so much of in the newspapers and internet back then, but by a group of people whose interest in Ukraine is not exactly political in the strict sense, they aren't really concerned with the Ukraine in terms of it's economic borders, it's GDP, it's population growth, it's division into various statuary sectors. It's not politics in a theoretical sense, it's a politics in the knock your teeth out sense, the people we've been supporting in the Ukraine since Maiden, since before Maiden, the same people we have in fact been training at our military facilities at Fort Bragg. You know, Fort Bragg, the same place where 95 soldiers have either been murdered or killed themselves in the last two years and there are no investigations, the same Fort Bragg where there seems to be an endemic child rape and human trafficking problem that no one has done any serious investigation of except Seth Harp. But certainly not any internal investigation.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:38

Zoeb: Oct 8, 2023; Dislike me? Don't spend $10 on a title. Donate to the Palestinian Red Crescent or Doctors Without Borders
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I do acknowledge that there are things about the conflict I don't know and haven't heard about. All media sources commenting on the matter have a slant one way or another.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:40

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Zoeb posted:

No. I am sorry. I simply do not agree with that position. The Russian invasion was a war crime and countries should not be invading or conquering each other anymore. It was wrong when the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and it wrong for Russia to invade Ukraine.

It was, but to keep this war going is to punish Ukraine and Ukrainian people as well.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:41

Zoeb: Oct 8, 2023; Dislike me? Don't spend $10 on a title. Donate to the Palestinian Red Crescent or Doctors Without Borders
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Hold on. I am reading what you posted.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:41

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Zoeb posted:

I am conflicted.

Between the two sides, I'd rather Ukraine maintained its sovereignty than Russia be allowed to annex all or part of Ukraine. They should be allowed to join NATO and the EU if that is the preference of their public or stay independent. I say this acknowledging that the US, who is Ukraine's primary ally didn't respect the sovereignty of Latin American countries such as Cuba who preferred to be communist or some degree of socialist. I don't think Russia had a right to invade, even to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO or the west in general. I think this invasion is a travesty and that Ukrainians are being murdered by Russian conquest.

The west helped arrange a coup of the democratically elected president of Ukraine for the grave sin of not mortgaging his country to join the EU. Ukraine is a western client state, not a democracy.

Crimea and the Donbas republics werent stolen by Russia, they defected. Both regions had overwhelmingly voted for the democratically elected president who got couped, and once it was clear Ukraine was not a democracy and did not want them represented they decided to leave and Russia offered protection.

Ukraine has implemented several laws that discriminate against its ethnic Russian minority in the 2014-2022 interim.

Russia launched its invasion two days after Zelensky, who had been elected on a platform of reconciliation with Russia, announced Ukraine was unilaterally withdrawing from the Minsk Agreement that governed the cease fire with the Donbas republics. This indicated a clear intent to invade the republics, which Ukraine had been bombarding for the last eight years in clear violation of the cease fire agreement to begin with.

Ukraine has already drawn up plans for ethnically cleansing Crimea if they should ever conquer it, and no doubt have similar plans for the Donbas.

Ukraine conquering the Russian annexed territories would be a travesty for the people who live there

In short, gently caress Ukraine.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:41

Xaris: Jul 25, 2006; Lucky there's a family guy
Lucky there's a man who positively can do
All the things that make us
Laugh and cry

Nix Panicus posted:

Crimea and the Donbas republics werent stolen by Russia, they defected.

lol one of the best fun-facts that I don't think many people is aware of is that after the USSR was broken up, Crimea actually voted to go independent (and briefly succeeded). Ukraine invaded and forcefully annexed Crimea in the early 90s.

anyways the official CSPAM position is that war sucks and should have been resolved peacefully years ago. But America did not want a peaceful solution at all and has been actively sabotaging any peace: blood is on america's hands

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:43

Animal-Mother: Feb 14, 2012; RABBIT RABBIT
RABBIT RABBIT

Zoeb posted:

in the event that the US was invaded by space aliens, it would probably be survivalist chuds, who I don't like very much, who would do a lot of the fighting.

Nah. Those idiots got their apocalyptic fantasy with Covid and immediately complained that Applebee's was closed.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:46

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Zoeb posted:

I remember the Euromaidan protests. The former president was a crook and I can't imagine all of those people were CIA agents or otherwise on the payroll. There was legitimate and organic criticism of the Ukrainian government. The US probably benefited sure but they could not have made an impact at all had there not already been a pre-existing rejection of the government by the Ukrainian public.

The former president was the winner of a democratic election. If the people disagreed with his actions they could simply elect someone else in a peaceful transfer of power.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:47

Zoeb: Oct 8, 2023; Dislike me? Don't spend $10 on a title. Donate to the Palestinian Red Crescent or Doctors Without Borders
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Animal-Mother posted:

Nah. Those idiots got their apocalyptic fantasy with Covid and immediately complained that Applebee's was closed.

yeah that's true actually

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:47

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# ? Jun 12, 2024 20:34

Zoeb: Oct 8, 2023; Dislike me? Don't spend $10 on a title. Donate to the Palestinian Red Crescent or Doctors Without Borders
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Xaris posted:

anyways the official CSPAM position is that war sucks and should have been resolved peacefully years ago. But America did not want a peaceful solution at all and has been actively sabotaging any peace: blood is on america's hands

I am new to this place. I wasn't familiar with an official CSPAM position but yeah I can agree with that in general but I don't think either side of this argument is flat-earth. I do think this is a debate where reasonable people acting in good faith can disagree and its not a matter of them being Russian assets or CIA assets.

I'll have to consider what you have said. This contradicts most of the articles and media I typically read and watch.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:50

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] ahegao to the poles

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