[Ukraine] U.S. gives up on sending $100,000 guided artillery shells due to 6% hitrate

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] U.S. gives up on sending $100,000 guided artillery shells due to 6% hitrate

«‹›3715 »

What is the most powerful flying bug? This poll is closed.
🦋	15	3.71%
🦇	115	28.47%
🪰	12	2.97%
🐦	67	16.58%
dragonfly	94	23.27%
🦟	14	3.47%
🐝	87	21.53%
Total:	404 votes

[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

Starsfan: Sep 29, 2007; This is what happens when you disrespect Cam Neely

I will say Zoeb (to be fair) that you are not wrong about Yanukovych being a crook. The entire sorry history of independent Ukraine has been a see-sawing of power between factions who have done nothing but pillage and enrich themselves and their families off of that country one after the other. It's not a surprise that there were normal every day people around that were fed up with Yanukovych, the same way that the population was well fed up with Zelenskyy before the events of 2022 when he had a sub 30% approval rating and was lambasted for being nakedly corrupt. Doesn't change the fact that the 2014 "revolution" was a coup and the actions the coup government put in motion at that time and since then have led us directly to where we are today.

Situation in that country is/was incredibly hosed up.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:53

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 3, 2024 02:28

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

BadOptics posted:

What kind of crazy person are you to bring up important historical context instead of good old wholesome vibes?!

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:57

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Ukraine had a reputation as the most corrupt nation in Europe with a serious fascism problem prior to the invasion. After the invasion the fascists became heroes of Ukraine and the corruption problems were brushed aside

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:57

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Nix Panicus posted:

The former president was the winner of a democratic election. If the people disagreed with his actions they could simply elect someone else in a peaceful transfer of power.

Winner of peaceful democratic election: "no elections can be held in Ukraine..."

# ? Oct 12, 2023 22:59

Xaris: Jul 25, 2006; Lucky there's a family guy
Lucky there's a man who positively can do
All the things that make us
Laugh and cry

Zoeb posted:

I am new to this place. I wasn't familiar with an official CSPAM position but yeah I can agree with that in general but I don't think either side of this argument is flat-earth. I do think this is a debate where reasonable people acting in good faith can disagree and its not a matter of them being Russian assets or CIA assets.

I'll have to consider what you have said. This contradicts most of the articles and media I typically read and watch.

There's really no "good vs evil" here, it's a new proxy forever war vs.. well. who loving knows. but one thing is for sure is that America is definitely the evilest one here for encouraging a new forever war meatgrinder of conscripts to die. Like I said, the world's most powerful country holding the global dollar could easily have resolved it or never let it get to the point if it wanted, but it did (and does) not want to, that's full culpability to me imo. They even admitted that they sabotaged the March/April(?) peace talks that happened shortly after it kicked off.

And yeah People have a 'right to defend themselves' absolutely, but does The State have a right to force people to defend The State? The State is not The People: that's a bloody question without an easy answer, and usually one involving killing a bunch of people.

oh yeah another fun fact: America and Germany straight up recently admitted that Minsk 1 and Minsk 2 agreements was never intended to be honored and was just a buying time thing. that's pretty lovely!

I'll see if I can find all the old sources from the previous iteration. there was good articles showing how the west has been intentionally treating UA as a exploitable resource colony for decades now: just stripping it bare to the bone and requiring it to privatize everything from farmland to forests to make cheap IKEA chairs. Always keep in mind they definitely do not have The People's best interests in mind or at heart.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 23:02

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

There are very calm and reasonable books written by American academics and policy writers extolling the benefits of proxy war. Most people don't read them, because they are very dry books for other academics and policy writers, but it lays out very clearly why events "might" happen as they did.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 23:05

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

The calm hitler, works every time.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 23:07

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

RAND may as well subtitle all of their major reports "If I Did It" 6-12 months after publication.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 23:09

Zoeb: Oct 8, 2023; Dislike me? Don't spend $10 on a title. Donate to the Palestinian Red Crescent or Doctors Without Borders
https://www.palestinercs.org/en
https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/

I think some people might have the wrong idea about me. I would say I am fairly far left. I am willing to hear your arguments. Like I said, I am more conflicted than committed.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 23:09

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

You seem to be getting mostly serious responses.

This is a decent discussion compared to the stupid drive by shitposting that happens sometimes.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 23:13

Xaris: Jul 25, 2006; Lucky there's a family guy
Lucky there's a man who positively can do
All the things that make us
Laugh and cry

some of John Mearsheimmer's writings are pretty good (but not complete either, afterall, he is a vaguely pro-West-centric person). These two are at least reading for a perspective and understanding of why it's not a simple UA good versus RU bad:

https://southfront.press/history-will-judge-the-united-states-and-its-allies-john-j-mearsheimer/ (c. Feb 2022)
https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/the-darkness-ahead-where-the-ukraine (c. Jun 2023)

Xaris has issued a correction as of 23:16 on Oct 12, 2023

# ? Oct 12, 2023 23:14

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

I don't think this is a battle between good and evil, power is too complex for that, but I really don't think a coup that disenfranchises a large portion of population could called democratic. More recently, Zelensky also banned or effectively banned almost all serious opposition and has delayed elections indefinitely beyond taking away the right of much of the population to express their own culture and language.

Also, I don't think Yanukovych's corruption was anything really special or notable for the country, he was replaced by a literal oligarch that began enriching himself the second he got into power. The leaders before him were just as bad. Zelensky is as bad as well.

As for the future of the country, I think ideally it would be split on linguistic/political lines, but the current government (which may never hold another real election) has made it clear it doesn't favor any long-term peace with the Russians. There is no possible off-ramp besides the Russians grinding the Ukrainian army into the ground.

This isn't even getting into the United States or its influence, which I think has been core to what has been happening in Ukraine since the 1980s.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 23:14

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Yanukovich's greatest crime wasn't corruption, it was incompetence.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 23:15

Zoeb: Oct 8, 2023; Dislike me? Don't spend $10 on a title. Donate to the Palestinian Red Crescent or Doctors Without Borders
https://www.palestinercs.org/en
https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/

Ardennes posted:

I don't think this is a battle between good and evil, power is too complex for that, but I really don't think a coup that disenfranchises a large portion of population could called democratic. More recently, Zelensky also banned or effectively banned almost all serious opposition and has delayed elections indefinitely beyond taking away the right of much of the population to express their own culture and language.

Also, I don't think Yanukovych's corruption was anything really special or notable for the country, he was replaced by a literal oligarch that began enriching himself the second he got into power. The leaders before him were just as bad. Zelensky is as bad as well.

As for the future of the country, I think ideally it would be split on linguistic/political lines, but the current government (which may never hold another real election) has made it clear it doesn't favor any long-term peace with the Russians. There is no possible off-ramp besides the Russians grinding the Ukrainian army into the ground.

This isn't even getting into the United States or its influence, which I think has been core to what has been happening in Ukraine since the 1980s.

Yeah, that is messed up. I don't like that and I think that takes away a lot of credibility.

You've given me things to think about.

# ? Oct 12, 2023 23:25

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

Zoeb posted:

I think some people might have the wrong idea about me. I would say I am fairly far left. I am willing to hear your arguments. Like I said, I am more conflicted than committed.

If you don't understand empire or materialism you don't get to claim to be far left imo

Lostconfused posted:

You seem to be getting mostly serious responses.

This is a decent discussion compared to the stupid drive by shitposting that happens sometimes.

I feel seen

# ? Oct 12, 2023 23:26

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Starsfan posted:

I will say Zoeb (to be fair) that you are not wrong about Yanukovych being a crook. The entire sorry history of independent Ukraine has been a see-sawing of power between factions who have done nothing but pillage and enrich themselves and their families off of that country one after the other.

i mean thats the story of all the countries that exploded out of the soviet union because gorby let everyone rob the state blind and set up nationalist fiefdoms

# ? Oct 12, 2023 23:27

Xaris: Jul 25, 2006; Lucky there's a family guy
Lucky there's a man who positively can do
All the things that make us
Laugh and cry

Raskolnikov38 posted:

i mean thats the story of all the countries that exploded out of the soviet union because gorby let everyone rob the state blind and set up nationalist fiefdoms

What the West did after the abandonment of the USSR in the post-soviet states and Shock Doctrine is absolutely sickening. Some of the worst crimes against humanity of all-time, and those scars are still bleeding together. Millions of people were straight up killed in the West's conquest to strip it bare and exploit whatever resources were left in place

I shoulda quoted the whole thing before, my bad:

quote:

A little bit of historical context but I want you to think of NATO at the end of the Soviet Union. Because what choices did NATO have? Number one, had it wanted to, it could have offered inclusion to Russia itself. If you're looking for a significant player in a 'North Atlantic Treaty', a Russia, even a reduced Russia, even a Gorbachev democratic socialist Russia had it been allowed to transpire would have been a significant player in the region, no? Or you could acknowledge that the entire purpose of NATO had been to stand as a bloc against the Soviet bloc, and in the absence of a Soviet bloc, there was really no purpose for NATO. The thing had served out it's time, we could let it disintegrate, right?. No, that's not what we did, because some men, the same kinds of men who were helping Nazi industrialists hide their money in 1941, with names like last names like Bush, could see further into the future.

Number one, we weren't going to let Russia turn into a democratic-socialist Nordic welfare state. And we didn't.

And so, CIA and others affected a coup there and installed a fat gently caress called Boris Yeltsin. During the Yeltstin years, we and our brethren, or transnational siblinghood of global capital, just absolutely stripped Russia down to the loving copper and wires, and then sold those too. Even the bricks. The things we did during the 90s were just utterly depraved. A lot of the mood was pretty well captured by The Exile, Mark Ames and so forth. And we took them for everything they could be taken for. Quite assured, in the prospect that, Yeltsin, as long as he personally was kept fed and fat and drunk and supplied with hookers, wouldn't do anything about it. And he didn't.

And there was a member of Yeltsin's cadre, so a little known KGB colonel we had no concern about at the time, and who we would grow increasingly concerned with years to come, sat and saw this go down.

At the end of the Soviet Union, we did not opt for mass renegotiation for supposed 'world peace and stability' that had been ostensible the entire purpose of NATO this entire time, right??? We got Gorbachev to believe that NATO was not going to going to an inch further than Germany. And then we stole everything we could steal out of the former USSR.

And then while plucking like loving daisies, plucked up every single former soviet border country we could and including them in NATO, and doing what we do best: putting weapons there. And those weapons are often American, and those weapons are often nuclear. So since the Berlin wall fell and all that bullshit, all we did was strip Russia down to the barest possible bones economically, then surround it with countries all of them full of US weaponry pointing directly at it, just in time for the Russian economy to improve enough vis-�-vis the largest salesman of oil & gas to the EU that suddenly they have something we want again.

So like this sudden heroism, eternal right, of self-determination, of a people most Americans couldn't give a gently caress about 10 years, hell most couldn't give a gently caress 5 years ago, this must be summoned because we're in a position they have something we want. And what we want is to surround them with weapons to place ourselves at the head of their economy which is selling ungodly, unholy, amounts of oil and gas to the Europeans. So that degree of influence may be whom they are allowed to sell to, and whom they aren't allowed to sell to, at what price. You know, like maybe stopping and controlling Russia-China interactions and perpetuation of the petrodollar. It's not a series of coincidences; not merely opportunistic men navigating circumstances in front of them, yes there's some of that, but there were people back in the 1990 who very much foresaw the growth of Russia as a oil state as the major supplier to the mainland. Right around the time Deng Xiaoping was turning China to what it is today. They have littered weapons around the continents to prevent Russia from any degree of self-determination.

This isn't an apologia for Putin, he's an awful son of bitch, and we don't know what he's done yet. And the contours of the military incursion aren't clear. And he's probably done the stupidest thing in his life that will, if not outright kill him, then at least probably disposed. There's no good to come from a partial or total invasion. Just simply saying it is profoundly disingenuous for liberals to act as if this just suddenly sprung up, as if it hasn't occurred as part of our designs on the region for the last several decades

# ? Oct 12, 2023 23:31

DancingShade: Jul 26, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

Lostconfused posted:

Russian officials: "we'll settle this on the field of battle"

Russian military industry continues to increase outputs

Westerns: "Maybe they'll just go away?"

# ? Oct 12, 2023 23:52

dk2m: May 6, 2009

Zoeb posted:

I am conflicted.

Between the two sides, I'd rather Ukraine maintained its sovereignty than Russia be allowed to annex all or part of Ukraine. They should be allowed to join NATO and the EU if that is the preference of their public or stay independent. I say this acknowledging that the US, who is Ukraine's primary ally didn't respect the sovereignty of Latin American countries such as Cuba who preferred to be communist or some degree of socialist. I don't think Russia had a right to invade, even to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO or the west in general. I think this invasion is a travesty and that Ukrainians are being murdered by Russian conquest.

I feel bad for any kids growing up in this mess. I feel bad for the noncombatants and maybe I even feel bad for Russian conscripts who would rather not be in Ukraine. This is a tragedy.

I think you're right to question all these things, and you're fine to feel conflicted. After all, there's been breathless words and media coverage over the last 1.5 years on a situation that, on first glance, seems fairly cut and dry - a country is invaded by its neighbor, who is now trying to annex its land. It's fair to ask, how could anyone find an issue with this?

First, when we think of "Ukraine" in the west, we imagine it to be like a normal, relatable western country like the US or France. This couldn't be farther from the case. Ukraine has been shaped by the forces around it, namely it's massive neighbors. From the Mongols, to the Ottoman, Polish-Lithaunian, Austro-Hungarian, and yes Russian neighbors, Ukrainian identity isn't something as easily "identifiable" as the cultural identity of a long sovereign nation like France. Therefore, there are deep divisions and splits, causing parts of the country to have different religious allegiences, cultural signifiers and language spoken.

It's within this context that 21st century Ukrainian nationalism, developed in the western part of the country, was explicitly fascist. I tried to write about that here:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4016635&userid=151411&perpage=40&pagenumber=8#post534779590

with a great followup by Frosted Flake here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=4016635&pagenumber=2620&perpage=40#post534780410

These splits were largely kept under control by the USSR during its existence. However, once independence emerged in 1991, they ruptured to the forefront of society again. Ukraine once again became emobroiled with its neighbors, but this time, by the US as with the elections came about a chance to influence a very pivotal state for Russia's security - Ukraine holds the key to take over the Russian Caucuses, which Hitler exploited.

By 2004, contentious elections led to the Color Revolution, in which the candidate backed by the Eastern Ukrainians, who were Russian speakers, initially won the elections, but international monitors nullified and Yushenko won.

By 2010, Yanukovych won, who was on friendly terms with Russia, and international observers also agreed he did as well.

By 2014, Yanukovych was deposed and was forced to flee his country. Call it a coup, call it a revolution - this was enough to spark a civil war. As fascist symbols started reappearing, and paramiliatry militias became once again a feature of Ukrainian society, the Eastern part of Ukraine declared autonomy. Russia, knowing that the leases on key naval bases in Crimea would be up in the air, and potentially be nullified and given to NATO, had natural interests that coincided with the rebels. Once Ukraine started bombing their own citizens and refused to allow the east special administration, the Russian administration tried to find a compromise through the Minsk agreement. There was also pressure within Russian government itself, with the Duma and the Communists forcing bills through its Parliament to give the DPR/LPR special autonomous privileges. Putin relented to these domestic forces, as minority Russian speakers were dying across their borders while they did nothing.

By Februray 2022, after nearly 10 years of frozen trench warfare, violence, and broken trust across the board, Ukraine unilaterally withdrew from the Minsk agreement. Without any sort of political or diplomatic pathway left, Russia started it's "special military operation" that was a small enough force to bring Ukraine back to the negotiation table. By April 2022, Zelensky and Putin potentially ready to talk peace deals, until Boris Johnson convinced Ukraine that with Western backing, Ukraine can actually expel Russia from its territory and regain the rebel regions of Crimea + Donestk + Luhansk. This relatively small initial invasion force turned into a full blown war, as Russia regrouped and mobilized to re-focus on the East.

All of these instances, this buildup and the nature of the civil war that spilled over into Russian territory, is lost when the narrative is - "a country is invaded by its neighbor, who is now trying to annex its land". This idea that Putin woke up one day and decided to invade his neighbor based on nothing but vibes ("unprovoked") should be understood for what it is - propoganda.

We're at the stage of this conflict where Russia is dug in and will now decide on the battlefield what it wants its terms to be. This didn't have to be the case, and hundreds of thousands are dead based on empty promises by the West where we can't even give them F16s, let alone bring them into NATO. Generations of Ukrainians will pay the price for the massive depopulation, gutted economy and inevitable poverty that will grip the country as Western backed powers grow bored of the war. Make of this what you will.

# ? Oct 13, 2023 00:01

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

"They'll probably just give up and run away" is the NATO plan on the strategic, operational and tactical level

# ? Oct 13, 2023 00:01

BULBASAUR: Apr 6, 2009; Soiled Meat

Zoeb posted:

No. I am sorry. I simply do not agree with that position. The Russian invasion was a war crime and countries should not be invading or conquering each other anymore. It was wrong when the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and it wrong for Russia to invade Ukraine.

I don't think anyone here will disagree that wars should be over, and that we should not be invading or conquering one another. But you know as well as the rest of us that this isn't the world we live in. The powers use ultimate force to get what they want. So one country helps goad another into a war in Ukraine. The result is predictable, just like the current things going down in Gaza. You throw rocks at a bear and then it snaps and mauls your friend, but you need to justify it to your friends and family so the spin begins. A lot of the talk in here is about that spin.

# ? Oct 13, 2023 00:01

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Slavvy posted:

"They'll probably just give up and run away" is the NATO plan on the strategic, operational and tactical level

See: The IDF Tier One team trying to "One riot, one ranger" Hamas by helicoptering in to the middle of the situation and thinking their presence alone would swing it.

# ? Oct 13, 2023 00:07

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

dk2m posted:

All of these instances, this buildup and the nature of the civil war that spilled over into Russian territory, is lost when the narrative is - "a country is invaded by its neighbor, who is now trying to annex its land". This idea that Putin woke up one day and decided to invade his neighbor based on nothing but vibes ("unprovoked") should be understood for what it is - propoganda.

We're at the stage of this conflict where Russia is dug in and will now decide on the battlefield what it wants its terms to be. This didn't have to be the case, and hundreds of thousands are dead based on empty promises by the West where we can't even give them F16s, let alone bring them into NATO. Generations of Ukrainians will pay the price for the massive depopulation, gutted economy and inevitable poverty that will grip the country as Western backed powers grow bored of the war. Make of this what you will.

# ? Oct 13, 2023 00:14

Organ Fiend: May 21, 2007; custom title

Zoeb posted:

I am conflicted.

Fuckin lib

# ? Oct 13, 2023 00:16

Phigs: Jan 23, 2019

Frosted Flake posted:

See: The IDF Tier One team trying to "One riot, one ranger" Hamas by helicoptering in to the middle of the situation and thinking their presence alone would swing it.

Been a bad few years for the maybe our enemies will be even more incompetent than we are strategy.

# ? Oct 13, 2023 00:17

Al!: Apr 2, 2010

Lostconfused posted:

You seem to be getting mostly serious responses.

This is a decent discussion compared to the stupid drive by shitposting that happens sometimes.

the ukraine should surrender

# ? Oct 13, 2023 00:18

genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

dk2m posted:

I think you're right to question all these things, and you're fine to feel conflicted. After all, there's been breathless words and media coverage over the last 1.5 years on a situation that, on first glance, seems fairly cut and dry - a country is invaded by its neighbor, who is now trying to annex its land. It's fair to ask, how could anyone find an issue with this?

First, when we think of "Ukraine" in the west, we imagine it to be like a normal, relatable western country like the US or France. This couldn't be farther from the case. Ukraine has been shaped by the forces around it, namely it's massive neighbors. From the Mongols, to the Ottoman, Polish-Lithaunian, Austro-Hungarian, and yes Russian neighbors, Ukrainian identity isn't something as easily "identifiable" as the cultural identity of a long sovereign nation like France. Therefore, there are deep divisions and splits, causing parts of the country to have different religious allegiences, cultural signifiers and language spoken.

It's within this context that 21st century Ukrainian nationalism, developed in the western part of the country, was explicitly fascist. I tried to write about that here:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4016635&userid=151411&perpage=40&pagenumber=8#post534779590

with a great followup by Frosted Flake here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=4016635&pagenumber=2620&perpage=40#post534780410

These splits were largely kept under control by the USSR during its existence. However, once independence emerged in 1991, they ruptured to the forefront of society again. Ukraine once again became emobroiled with its neighbors, but this time, by the US as with the elections came about a chance to influence a very pivotal state for Russia's security - Ukraine holds the key to take over the Russian Caucuses, which Hitler exploited.

By 2004, contentious elections led to the Color Revolution, in which the candidate backed by the Eastern Ukrainians, who were Russian speakers, initially won the elections, but international monitors nullified and Yushenko won.

By 2010, Yanukovych won, who was on friendly terms with Russia, and international observers also agreed he did as well.

By 2014, Yanukovych was deposed and was forced to flee his country. Call it a coup, call it a revolution - this was enough to spark a civil war. As fascist symbols started reappearing, and paramiliatry militias became once again a feature of Ukrainian society, the Eastern part of Ukraine declared autonomy. Russia, knowing that the leases on key naval bases in Crimea would be up in the air, and potentially be nullified and given to NATO, had natural interests that coincided with the rebels. Once Ukraine started bombing their own citizens and refused to allow the east special administration, the Russian administration tried to find a compromise through the Minsk agreement. There was also pressure within Russian government itself, with the Duma and the Communists forcing bills through its Parliament to give the DPR/LPR special autonomous privileges. Putin relented to these domestic forces, as minority Russian speakers were dying across their borders while they did nothing.

By Februray 2022, after nearly 10 years of frozen trench warfare, violence, and broken trust across the board, Ukraine unilaterally withdrew from the Minsk agreement. Without any sort of political or diplomatic pathway left, Russia started it's "special military operation" that was a small enough force to bring Ukraine back to the negotiation table. By April 2022, Zelensky and Putin potentially ready to talk peace deals, until Boris Johnson convinced Ukraine that with Western backing, Ukraine can actually expel Russia from its territory and regain the rebel regions of Crimea + Donestk + Luhansk. This relatively small initial invasion force turned into a full blown war, as Russia regrouped and mobilized to re-focus on the East.

All of these instances, this buildup and the nature of the civil war that spilled over into Russian territory, is lost when the narrative is - "a country is invaded by its neighbor, who is now trying to annex its land". This idea that Putin woke up one day and decided to invade his neighbor based on nothing but vibes ("unprovoked") should be understood for what it is - propoganda.

We're at the stage of this conflict where Russia is dug in and will now decide on the battlefield what it wants its terms to be. This didn't have to be the case, and hundreds of thousands are dead based on empty promises by the West where we can't even give them F16s, let alone bring them into NATO. Generations of Ukrainians will pay the price for the massive depopulation, gutted economy and inevitable poverty that will grip the country as Western backed powers grow bored of the war. Make of this what you will.

Good post

# ? Oct 13, 2023 00:25

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Trillbilly posted it out, and to a degree Chapo did too, but the degree to which the entire history of the Holocaust was rewritten for the sake of Ukraine, or more broadly, NATO expansion into Eastern Europe is having really interesting consequences now that they are trying to mobilize the memory of the Holocaust in support of Israel.

Me sowing, me reaping etc.

# ? Oct 13, 2023 00:38

Xaris: Jul 25, 2006; Lucky there's a family guy
Lucky there's a man who positively can do
All the things that make us
Laugh and cry

dk2m posted:

I think you're right to question all these things, and you're fine to feel conflicted. After all, there's been breathless words and media coverage over the last 1.5 years on a situation that, on first glance, seems fairly cut and dry - a country is invaded by its neighbor, who is now trying to annex its land. It's fair to ask, how could anyone find an issue with this?

First, when we think of "Ukraine" in the west, we imagine it to be like a normal, relatable western country like the US or France. This couldn't be farther from the case. Ukraine has been shaped by the forces around it, namely it's massive neighbors. From the Mongols, to the Ottoman, Polish-Lithaunian, Austro-Hungarian, and yes Russian neighbors, Ukrainian identity isn't something as easily "identifiable" as the cultural identity of a long sovereign nation like France. Therefore, there are deep divisions and splits, causing parts of the country to have different religious allegiences, cultural signifiers and language spoken.

It's within this context that 21st century Ukrainian nationalism, developed in the western part of the country, was explicitly fascist. I tried to write about that here:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4016635&userid=151411&perpage=40&pagenumber=8#post534779590

with a great followup by Frosted Flake here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=4016635&pagenumber=2620&perpage=40#post534780410

These splits were largely kept under control by the USSR during its existence. However, once independence emerged in 1991, they ruptured to the forefront of society again. Ukraine once again became emobroiled with its neighbors, but this time, by the US as with the elections came about a chance to influence a very pivotal state for Russia's security - Ukraine holds the key to take over the Russian Caucuses, which Hitler exploited.

By 2004, contentious elections led to the Color Revolution, in which the candidate backed by the Eastern Ukrainians, who were Russian speakers, initially won the elections, but international monitors nullified and Yushenko won.

By 2010, Yanukovych won, who was on friendly terms with Russia, and international observers also agreed he did as well.

By 2014, Yanukovych was deposed and was forced to flee his country. Call it a coup, call it a revolution - this was enough to spark a civil war. As fascist symbols started reappearing, and paramiliatry militias became once again a feature of Ukrainian society, the Eastern part of Ukraine declared autonomy. Russia, knowing that the leases on key naval bases in Crimea would be up in the air, and potentially be nullified and given to NATO, had natural interests that coincided with the rebels. Once Ukraine started bombing their own citizens and refused to allow the east special administration, the Russian administration tried to find a compromise through the Minsk agreement. There was also pressure within Russian government itself, with the Duma and the Communists forcing bills through its Parliament to give the DPR/LPR special autonomous privileges. Putin relented to these domestic forces, as minority Russian speakers were dying across their borders while they did nothing.

By Februray 2022, after nearly 10 years of frozen trench warfare, violence, and broken trust across the board, Ukraine unilaterally withdrew from the Minsk agreement. Without any sort of political or diplomatic pathway left, Russia started it's "special military operation" that was a small enough force to bring Ukraine back to the negotiation table. By April 2022, Zelensky and Putin potentially ready to talk peace deals, until Boris Johnson convinced Ukraine that with Western backing, Ukraine can actually expel Russia from its territory and regain the rebel regions of Crimea + Donestk + Luhansk. This relatively small initial invasion force turned into a full blown war, as Russia regrouped and mobilized to re-focus on the East.

All of these instances, this buildup and the nature of the civil war that spilled over into Russian territory, is lost when the narrative is - "a country is invaded by its neighbor, who is now trying to annex its land". This idea that Putin woke up one day and decided to invade his neighbor based on nothing but vibes ("unprovoked") should be understood for what it is - propoganda.

We're at the stage of this conflict where Russia is dug in and will now decide on the battlefield what it wants its terms to be. This didn't have to be the case, and hundreds of thousands are dead based on empty promises by the West where we can't even give them F16s, let alone bring them into NATO. Generations of Ukrainians will pay the price for the massive depopulation, gutted economy and inevitable poverty that will grip the country as Western backed powers grow bored of the war. Make of this what you will.

quoting for truth

# ? Oct 13, 2023 00:42

DancingShade: Jul 26, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

dk2m posted:

I think you're right to question all these things, and you're fine to feel conflicted. After all, there's been breathless words and media coverage over the last 1.5 years on a situation that, on first glance, seems fairly cut and dry - a country is invaded by its neighbor, who is now trying to annex its land. It's fair to ask, how could anyone find an issue with this?

First, when we think of "Ukraine" in the west, we imagine it to be like a normal, relatable western country like the US or France. This couldn't be farther from the case. Ukraine has been shaped by the forces around it, namely it's massive neighbors. From the Mongols, to the Ottoman, Polish-Lithaunian, Austro-Hungarian, and yes Russian neighbors, Ukrainian identity isn't something as easily "identifiable" as the cultural identity of a long sovereign nation like France. Therefore, there are deep divisions and splits, causing parts of the country to have different religious allegiences, cultural signifiers and language spoken.

It's within this context that 21st century Ukrainian nationalism, developed in the western part of the country, was explicitly fascist. I tried to write about that here:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4016635&userid=151411&perpage=40&pagenumber=8#post534779590

with a great followup by Frosted Flake here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=4016635&pagenumber=2620&perpage=40#post534780410

These splits were largely kept under control by the USSR during its existence. However, once independence emerged in 1991, they ruptured to the forefront of society again. Ukraine once again became emobroiled with its neighbors, but this time, by the US as with the elections came about a chance to influence a very pivotal state for Russia's security - Ukraine holds the key to take over the Russian Caucuses, which Hitler exploited.

By 2004, contentious elections led to the Color Revolution, in which the candidate backed by the Eastern Ukrainians, who were Russian speakers, initially won the elections, but international monitors nullified and Yushenko won.

By 2010, Yanukovych won, who was on friendly terms with Russia, and international observers also agreed he did as well.

By 2014, Yanukovych was deposed and was forced to flee his country. Call it a coup, call it a revolution - this was enough to spark a civil war. As fascist symbols started reappearing, and paramiliatry militias became once again a feature of Ukrainian society, the Eastern part of Ukraine declared autonomy. Russia, knowing that the leases on key naval bases in Crimea would be up in the air, and potentially be nullified and given to NATO, had natural interests that coincided with the rebels. Once Ukraine started bombing their own citizens and refused to allow the east special administration, the Russian administration tried to find a compromise through the Minsk agreement. There was also pressure within Russian government itself, with the Duma and the Communists forcing bills through its Parliament to give the DPR/LPR special autonomous privileges. Putin relented to these domestic forces, as minority Russian speakers were dying across their borders while they did nothing.

By Februray 2022, after nearly 10 years of frozen trench warfare, violence, and broken trust across the board, Ukraine unilaterally withdrew from the Minsk agreement. Without any sort of political or diplomatic pathway left, Russia started it's "special military operation" that was a small enough force to bring Ukraine back to the negotiation table. By April 2022, Zelensky and Putin potentially ready to talk peace deals, until Boris Johnson convinced Ukraine that with Western backing, Ukraine can actually expel Russia from its territory and regain the rebel regions of Crimea + Donestk + Luhansk. This relatively small initial invasion force turned into a full blown war, as Russia regrouped and mobilized to re-focus on the East.

All of these instances, this buildup and the nature of the civil war that spilled over into Russian territory, is lost when the narrative is - "a country is invaded by its neighbor, who is now trying to annex its land". This idea that Putin woke up one day and decided to invade his neighbor based on nothing but vibes ("unprovoked") should be understood for what it is - propoganda.

We're at the stage of this conflict where Russia is dug in and will now decide on the battlefield what it wants its terms to be. This didn't have to be the case, and hundreds of thousands are dead based on empty promises by the West where we can't even give them F16s, let alone bring them into NATO. Generations of Ukrainians will pay the price for the massive depopulation, gutted economy and inevitable poverty that will grip the country as Western backed powers grow bored of the war. Make of this what you will.

Excellent summary.

# ? Oct 13, 2023 01:17

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

We also prevented any future positive civil society emerging no matter what the military or political outcome is because we gave the money, weapons and political power to literal Nazis and skinhead soccer hooligans. First to make sure votes couldn't revert Maidan like they had the Orange Revolution, then to terrorize the ethnic Russian population (and Roma), then to actually fight in the East, then to sabotage any peace talks (and threaten to kill Zelensky on camera), almost certainly to act as an insurgent group if Russia invaded with a larger initial force, and Ukraine collapsed as anticipated - and throughout all of this to ensure there was no change of course.

So, whatever we hope for the Ukrainian people, we have empowered literally the worst and most violent people in their society.

# ? Oct 13, 2023 01:21

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

BadOptics posted:

What kind of crazy person are you to bring up important historical context instead of good old wholesome vibes?!

A big problem is that people who just had "broadly good intentions" (but without any real knowledge) are easily manipulated by propaganda. Show them a picture of like 50 people protesting + interview a few English-speaking expats, and you can convince them to support overthrowing a foreign government. If you disagree, you're denying their voices/lived experiences/whatever.

There's a certain element to contemporary "progressive" discourse that frowns on the very concept of nuance*. It makes them think of people doubting rape victims or questioning the validity of trans people, etc.

The core issue is that they're using logic that only makes sense when applied to individuals and applying it to entire countries/governments. This is because they are, unfortunately, kind of dumb. And the nature of internet discourse only exacerbates this. They've conditioned themselves to instantly distrust anyone who doesn't frame things in the way they're familiar with. I might have sympathy for it if not for the fact that their beliefs are used to support immeasurable human suffering.

* in fact, if such a person were reading this post, my use of that word would instantly cause them to shut down and think about libertarians or something

# ? Oct 13, 2023 01:39

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

Xaris posted:

oh yeah another fun fact: America and Germany straight up recently admitted that Minsk 1 and Minsk 2 agreements was never intended to be honored and was just a buying time thing. that's pretty lovely!

don't forget hollande of france !

# ? Oct 13, 2023 01:42

fizzy: Dec 2, 2022; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Bad news for Ukraine - Western establishment media (French state-owned media France24) is pushing the narrative that "When Ukraine announced it had re-captured the village of Robotyne, its message to the world was that it had found a way to pierce Russian lines on the southern front. Six weeks on, no such breakthrough has materialised and soldiers from the 65th brigade that led the assault admit they do not fully control the village."

Other interesting tidbits:
- Yet eight Ukrainian soldiers involved in the fighting told AFP their forces were only inching forward with heavy losses against a Russian army entrenched behind heavily fortified positions.
- Speaking in an area usually closed to media, they complained of a lack of manpower, ammunition and drones.
- Igor Korol, the heavily tattooed commander of the brigade's first battalion, spoke calmly but did not mince his words. For him, the announcement of the capture of Robotyne on August 28 was primarily a PR move, since the village, occupied since early in the war, has no strategic value.
- Korol said his men are still not able to move freely around the area because of Russian fire, even though they hold the territory, calling it a "gray zone".
- "Moving by day means death -- 100 percent," Korol said.
- "Poltava", a deputy commander of the first battalion, said the Russian army "spares nothing in terms of ammunition or bombs". As a result, the Ukrainian advances are slow, with heavy losses.
- Soldiers from the 65th brigade said Russia fires 10 shells for every "one or two" from their side. The same goes for drones.
- "The price is the life of our men... and we have very few (reserves) of men," Korol said.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231012-on-southern-front-ukraine-s-struggle-to-pierce-russian-lines

On southern front, Ukraine's struggle to pierce Russian lines
Issued on: 12/10/2023 - 10:15
Modified: 12/10/2023 - 10:14
6 min

ZAPORIZHZHIA REGION (Ukraine) (AFP) � When Ukraine announced it had re-captured the village of Robotyne, its message to the world was that it had found a way to pierce Russian lines on the southern front.

Six weeks on, no such breakthrough has materialised and soldiers from the 65th brigade that led the assault admit they do not fully control the village.

The recapture of the small village in the Zaporizhzhia region was announced in August as a strategic victory in the counteroffensive.

Yet eight Ukrainian soldiers involved in the fighting told AFP their forces were only inching forward with heavy losses against a Russian army entrenched behind heavily fortified positions.

Speaking in an area usually closed to media, they complained of a lack of manpower, ammunition and drones.

Igor Korol, the heavily tattooed commander of the brigade's first battalion, spoke calmly but did not mince his words.

For him, the announcement of the capture of Robotyne on August 28 was primarily a PR move, since the village, occupied since early in the war, has no strategic value.

"We could have gone around it," he said, speaking to AFP in an area near the front line.

"We love big announcements, quick victories. The reality is different," said the commander who uses the call sign "Morpekh" (Marine).

'Death 100 percent'

Korol said his men are still not able to move freely around the area because of Russian fire, even though they hold the territory, calling it a "gray zone".

At dawn, small groups of soldiers could be seen advancing through the coppices that dot the area to attack Russian positions.

On the day that AFP reporters visited, they were deployed on the outskirts of the next village along -- Novokropivka -- two or three kilometres away.

"Moving by day means death -- 100 percent," Korol said.

Every time there is shelling "there are victims, we lose men".

While Russian forces are no longer in Robotyne, the area is within their range so large-scale infantry operations with armoured vehicles are impossible.

The Ukrainian army has the ambitious aim of reaching the Azov Sea, cutting through the land bridge between southern and eastern regions occupied by Russia.

A victory like that could force Russia to retreat as it would cut supply lines.

'Surovikin Line'

For the Kremlin, the fact that Ukraine has only managed to re-capture a few dozen square kilometres since launching a counter-offensive in June is proof of the failure of this large-scale operation.

The first main city after Robotyne is Tokmak, around 30 kilometres (20 miles) away. The sea is 70 kilometres away.

Russia has built up heavy defences including underground shelters, trenches, tank traps and minefields.

Ukrainian forces are only able to inch forwards -- and are always under enemy fire.

The Russian defences have been nicknamed the "Surovikin Line" -- after General Sergei Surovikin, who commanded Russian forces in Ukraine at the time they were built up.

The Ukrainian army broke through the first defensive lines in some places this summer but the main defences have held strong.

Autumn rains and mud and winter snow and ice in coming months will make the Ukrainians' task even harder.

The danger from the sky is also constant -- aerial bombs, shells and explosive drones rain down on Ukrainian soldiers every time they try to advance.

'Thicket by thicket'

Leonid, a 44-year-old grenade specialist with the call sign "Miron", said soldiers can only advance in the "three or five minutes" between enemy barrages.

"There isn't any close-quarters combat," he said.

Russians send over "120 mm and 82 mm mortars, and 152 mm artillery, kamikazes (drones) and KABs", a type of laser-guided bomb.

"Poltava", a deputy commander of the first battalion, said the Russian army "spares nothing in terms of ammunition or bombs".

As a result, the Ukrainian advances are slow, with heavy losses.

"We advance gradually, thicket by thicket, not as quickly as we would like... It's very tough. We lose a lot of our men," he said.

Ukrainian and Russian authorities do not give any figures on military casualties.

Soldiers from the 65th brigade said Russia fires 10 shells for every "one or two" from their side. The same goes for drones.

"We are fighting against... a massive country. They have more men, more equipment," said Oleksandr, a 27-year-old soldier with the call sign "Storm".

"When they bomb the undergrowth, we take shelter wherever we can... When it's over we know we can move and if possible we move forward."

'Cost is very high'

Ukraine has pushed back against suggestions from its Western supporters that its territorial gains have been insufficient.

It also baulks at voices in the United States and EU that favour reducing arms supplies.

Kyiv's view is that the troops' difficulties are due to a lack of support and delays in supplying Western weapons.

The F-16 fighter jets it has been promised would challenge Russia's aerial supremacy and its "Surovikin Line" and provide air cover for infantry advances.

Without air cover, Ukraine's military can only move very slowly.

"The price is the life of our men... and we have very few (reserves) of men," Korol said.

Mykola or "Doc", a combat paramedic, acknowledged "the cost is very high", describing evacuations of wounded men under fire.

"War is blood, sweat, dirt, stench. You don't see the smell on a screen," said the 47-year-old, who worked in a fintech company before the war.

Poltava said the hardest thing was speaking to the loved ones of soldiers killed in combat whose bodies have not been retrieved.

"They call all the time and ask when we can get the bodies out, but they are in places where I can't send anyone. It's very dangerous and we risk losing even more guys," he said.

'We know why'

Even so, the men of the 65th brigade would not dream of giving up the fight.

For them, the war can only end one way -- with Russia's defeat and the recapture of all the occupied land.

"We know why we're doing this," said "Doc".

Mikhail, a 28-year-old who uses the call sign "Kapa", was among the first to enter Robotyne this summer.

Before being deployed to the southern front, he fought in the Kharkiv region in the northeast and took part in the bloody battle for Bakhmut in the Donbas.

He believes Russia decided to stop trying to advance and build up its defences after a series of retreats in autumn 2022.

"They understood they would not be able to take any more land and hold it, so they've entrenched here for the long haul," he said.

The result is that, since Russia's retreat from the city of Kherson in November 2022, there has been very little change on the front line for nearly a year.

This does not dent the motivation of the troops sent to attack the Surovikin Line, Mikhail said.

"The lads who come here, they know why they are here. They're here to work: to move the enemy, launch assaults, not to sit in a ditch."

# ? Oct 13, 2023 02:47

VoicesCanBe: Jul 1, 2023; "Cóż, wygląda na to, że zostaliśmy łaskawie oszczędzeni trudu decydowania o własnym losie. Jakże uprzejme z ich strony, że przearanżowali Europę bez kłopotu naszego zdania!"

fizzy posted:

- Igor Korol, the heavily tattooed commander of the brigade's first battalion, spoke calmly but did not mince his words. For him, the announcement of the capture of Robotyne on August 28 was primarily a PR move, since the village, occupied since early in the war, has no strategic value.

Incredible. So they're straight up admitting this now huh

# ? Oct 13, 2023 02:54

In Training: Jun 28, 2008

Listening and learning ftw. Good luck on your journey Zoeb.

# ? Oct 13, 2023 02:59

dk2m: May 6, 2009

VoicesCanBe posted:

Incredible. So they're straight up admitting this now huh

Why does it feel like the facade is crumbling, jesus

# ? Oct 13, 2023 03:30

DancingShade: Jul 26, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

dk2m posted:

Why does it feel like the facade is crumbling, jesus

Script doctors are busy elsewhere.

# ? Oct 13, 2023 03:39

fizzy: Dec 2, 2022; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

fizzy posted:

Bad news for Ukraine - Western establishment media (French state-owned media France24) is pushing the narrative that "When Ukraine announced it had re-captured the village of Robotyne, its message to the world was that it had found a way to pierce Russian lines on the southern front. Six weeks on, no such breakthrough has materialised and soldiers from the 65th brigade that led the assault admit they do not fully control the village."

Other interesting tidbits:
- Yet eight Ukrainian soldiers involved in the fighting told AFP their forces were only inching forward with heavy losses against a Russian army entrenched behind heavily fortified positions.
- Speaking in an area usually closed to media, they complained of a lack of manpower, ammunition and drones.
- Igor Korol, the heavily tattooed commander of the brigade's first battalion, spoke calmly but did not mince his words. For him, the announcement of the capture of Robotyne on August 28 was primarily a PR move, since the village, occupied since early in the war, has no strategic value.
- Korol said his men are still not able to move freely around the area because of Russian fire, even though they hold the territory, calling it a "gray zone".
- "Moving by day means death -- 100 percent," Korol said.
- "Poltava", a deputy commander of the first battalion, said the Russian army "spares nothing in terms of ammunition or bombs". As a result, the Ukrainian advances are slow, with heavy losses.
- Soldiers from the 65th brigade said Russia fires 10 shells for every "one or two" from their side. The same goes for drones.
- "The price is the life of our men... and we have very few (reserves) of men," Korol said.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231012-on-southern-front-ukraine-s-struggle-to-pierce-russian-lines

On southern front, Ukraine's struggle to pierce Russian lines
Issued on: 12/10/2023 - 10:15
Modified: 12/10/2023 - 10:14
6 min

ZAPORIZHZHIA REGION (Ukraine) (AFP) � When Ukraine announced it had re-captured the village of Robotyne, its message to the world was that it had found a way to pierce Russian lines on the southern front.

Six weeks on, no such breakthrough has materialised and soldiers from the 65th brigade that led the assault admit they do not fully control the village.

The recapture of the small village in the Zaporizhzhia region was announced in August as a strategic victory in the counteroffensive.

Yet eight Ukrainian soldiers involved in the fighting told AFP their forces were only inching forward with heavy losses against a Russian army entrenched behind heavily fortified positions.

Speaking in an area usually closed to media, they complained of a lack of manpower, ammunition and drones.

Igor Korol, the heavily tattooed commander of the brigade's first battalion, spoke calmly but did not mince his words.

For him, the announcement of the capture of Robotyne on August 28 was primarily a PR move, since the village, occupied since early in the war, has no strategic value.

"We could have gone around it," he said, speaking to AFP in an area near the front line.

"We love big announcements, quick victories. The reality is different," said the commander who uses the call sign "Morpekh" (Marine).

'Death 100 percent'

Korol said his men are still not able to move freely around the area because of Russian fire, even though they hold the territory, calling it a "gray zone".

At dawn, small groups of soldiers could be seen advancing through the coppices that dot the area to attack Russian positions.

On the day that AFP reporters visited, they were deployed on the outskirts of the next village along -- Novokropivka -- two or three kilometres away.

"Moving by day means death -- 100 percent," Korol said.

Every time there is shelling "there are victims, we lose men".

While Russian forces are no longer in Robotyne, the area is within their range so large-scale infantry operations with armoured vehicles are impossible.

The Ukrainian army has the ambitious aim of reaching the Azov Sea, cutting through the land bridge between southern and eastern regions occupied by Russia.

A victory like that could force Russia to retreat as it would cut supply lines.

'Surovikin Line'

For the Kremlin, the fact that Ukraine has only managed to re-capture a few dozen square kilometres since launching a counter-offensive in June is proof of the failure of this large-scale operation.

The first main city after Robotyne is Tokmak, around 30 kilometres (20 miles) away. The sea is 70 kilometres away.

Russia has built up heavy defences including underground shelters, trenches, tank traps and minefields.

Ukrainian forces are only able to inch forwards -- and are always under enemy fire.

The Russian defences have been nicknamed the "Surovikin Line" -- after General Sergei Surovikin, who commanded Russian forces in Ukraine at the time they were built up.

The Ukrainian army broke through the first defensive lines in some places this summer but the main defences have held strong.

Autumn rains and mud and winter snow and ice in coming months will make the Ukrainians' task even harder.

The danger from the sky is also constant -- aerial bombs, shells and explosive drones rain down on Ukrainian soldiers every time they try to advance.

'Thicket by thicket'

Leonid, a 44-year-old grenade specialist with the call sign "Miron", said soldiers can only advance in the "three or five minutes" between enemy barrages.

"There isn't any close-quarters combat," he said.

Russians send over "120 mm and 82 mm mortars, and 152 mm artillery, kamikazes (drones) and KABs", a type of laser-guided bomb.

"Poltava", a deputy commander of the first battalion, said the Russian army "spares nothing in terms of ammunition or bombs".

As a result, the Ukrainian advances are slow, with heavy losses.

"We advance gradually, thicket by thicket, not as quickly as we would like... It's very tough. We lose a lot of our men," he said.

Ukrainian and Russian authorities do not give any figures on military casualties.

Soldiers from the 65th brigade said Russia fires 10 shells for every "one or two" from their side. The same goes for drones.

"We are fighting against... a massive country. They have more men, more equipment," said Oleksandr, a 27-year-old soldier with the call sign "Storm".

"When they bomb the undergrowth, we take shelter wherever we can... When it's over we know we can move and if possible we move forward."

'Cost is very high'

Ukraine has pushed back against suggestions from its Western supporters that its territorial gains have been insufficient.

It also baulks at voices in the United States and EU that favour reducing arms supplies.

Kyiv's view is that the troops' difficulties are due to a lack of support and delays in supplying Western weapons.

The F-16 fighter jets it has been promised would challenge Russia's aerial supremacy and its "Surovikin Line" and provide air cover for infantry advances.

Without air cover, Ukraine's military can only move very slowly.

"The price is the life of our men... and we have very few (reserves) of men," Korol said.

Mykola or "Doc", a combat paramedic, acknowledged "the cost is very high", describing evacuations of wounded men under fire.

"War is blood, sweat, dirt, stench. You don't see the smell on a screen," said the 47-year-old, who worked in a fintech company before the war.

Poltava said the hardest thing was speaking to the loved ones of soldiers killed in combat whose bodies have not been retrieved.

"They call all the time and ask when we can get the bodies out, but they are in places where I can't send anyone. It's very dangerous and we risk losing even more guys," he said.

'We know why'

Even so, the men of the 65th brigade would not dream of giving up the fight.

For them, the war can only end one way -- with Russia's defeat and the recapture of all the occupied land.

"We know why we're doing this," said "Doc".

Mikhail, a 28-year-old who uses the call sign "Kapa", was among the first to enter Robotyne this summer.

Before being deployed to the southern front, he fought in the Kharkiv region in the northeast and took part in the bloody battle for Bakhmut in the Donbas.

He believes Russia decided to stop trying to advance and build up its defences after a series of retreats in autumn 2022.

"They understood they would not be able to take any more land and hold it, so they've entrenched here for the long haul," he said.

The result is that, since Russia's retreat from the city of Kherson in November 2022, there has been very little change on the front line for nearly a year.

This does not dent the motivation of the troops sent to attack the Surovikin Line, Mikhail said.

"The lads who come here, they know why they are here. They're here to work: to move the enemy, launch assaults, not to sit in a ditch."

Reminder news for anyone hate-reading this thread - The above isn't an article on TASS, or RT, or a Twitter rando. It's an article on France 24, a French state-owned international news television network based in Paris, very much within the sphere of Western establishment media.

# ? Oct 13, 2023 03:49

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 3, 2024 02:28

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

I promise you this clip is on-topic:

https://twitter.com/Cooperstreaming/status/1712245994606444847

# ? Oct 13, 2023 03:52

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] U.S. gives up on sending $100,000 guided artillery shells due to 6% hitrate

«‹›3715 »