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keep punching joe posted:Why do the always draw Sam as a chonker, I don't think the book ever describes his huskyness. Gollum sure did, although maybe that's just movie dialog?
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Oct 11, 2023 17:11
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BetterLekNextTime posted:Gollum sure did, although maybe that's just movie dialog? I think Gollum just calls him cross, mean, nasty, and no point does he bodyshame him. The only explicitly rotund characters I can think of are Fatty Bolger and Fatty Lumpkin. Though I may be wrong.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:30
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Beorn fat shames Bilbo after he's spent a week eating cream and honey at his house
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Oct 11, 2023 17:44
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Bilbo lost his waistcoat buttons trying to squeeze out of the orc cave so his belly was objectively wider than anything else.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:54
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Galadriel looks kinda bored while delivering the "all shall love me and despair" speech.
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Oct 11, 2023 18:01
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Alhazred posted:Galadriel looks kinda bored while delivering the "all shall love me and despair" speech. I'd really like to see the raw footage of that scene without cgi.
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Oct 11, 2023 18:02
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sweet geek swag posted:He's the working class hobbit, it's probably just the way classism conditions us. It's true, Frodo was actually the one described as being overweight (or at least losing a significant amount of weight before getting to Rivendell.) Gotta remember he was in his 50s in the books and was an upper class
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Oct 11, 2023 18:07
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looking at Gollum I'm pretty sure he'd call anyone fat
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Oct 11, 2023 19:24
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Kaysette posted:It's true, Frodo was actually the one described as being overweight (or at least losing a significant amount of weight before getting to Rivendell.) Gotta remember he was in his 50s in the books and was an upper class 50 in hobbit years isn’t old or even middle aged. They’re considered adults at 33.
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Oct 11, 2023 20:04
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Oracle posted:50 in hobbit years isn’t old or even middle aged. They’re considered adults at 33. Their lifespan is around 100 years without magical jewelry so I'd say that's middle aged.
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Oct 11, 2023 20:14
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50 is the age at which hobbits are supposed to be sensible and no longer young. There’s mention of how Frodo’s neighbors start to look at him askance for being 50 but still looking young. Frodo is obviously well-fed to start with and slims down significantly during the story, but even near the start, the narrator assures us he is “neither very fat nor very timid” (in the barrow). Sam’s fatness... “Stupid fat hobbit” is an exaggeration of the book line, Tolkien’s Sméagol just calls him silly. But you can see where they got the idea, words like “stout” and “sturdy” are used of Sam often. to describe his heart as much as his body, but still, it’s suggestive. He works with his hands and is robust in more ways than one. And some degree of fatness seems to be pretty natural among hobbits, Sam obviously loves food and beer so why shouldn’t he be a bit tubby tbh.
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Oct 11, 2023 20:35
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I wonder how much of that Galadriel scene is CGI. It looks like animation and lighting Idk hard to tell on a phone screen with YT quality
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Oct 11, 2023 20:36
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When was that comic published? It looks like it's cribbing a lot of its designs from Bakshi.
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Oct 11, 2023 20:55
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Data Graham posted:When was that comic published? It looks like it's cribbing a lot of its designs from Bakshi. 1979 to 1981, so just after the Bakshi movie. There is definitely a very strong influence, though it is not just a straight adaptation of the movie.
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Oct 11, 2023 21:19
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Mike N Eich posted:I was just thinking about it....is there any outcome where things go well for the Orcs? Obviously, the way things play out, they slowly die out and are never seen again following the Fourth Age (presumably). However, I'm also wondering that if Sauron triumphs, do Orcs have any longterm role in his plans? This is a Maia of Aule, who defects to Melkor because he treasures Order so much, would he really tolerate the ongoing chaos and infighting of Orcs permanently? They are a valuable force while waging war on the "Free Peoples" but what Sauron originally wanted was to rule over Elves and Men, he doesn't really have any special love for Orcs, or any love at all. If you consider his Letters as canon, they survived to become Englishmen Runcible Cat posted:I may have found the worst illustration of Tolkien ever: That rules SimonChris posted:Just a heads-up that I'm posting scanlations of the European Lord of the Ring Comics in the PYF Comics thread. These were never officially translated to English. Thank you, this is great!
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Oct 11, 2023 21:35
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I am pretty sure Gollum calls Sam fat a shitload, it’s just lost in all of the litany of other curse words he uses about him. I always depicted Sam as a little husky but in like an mid-20th century way and not a modern Walmart American— Sam Astin’s casting was perfect for the role. However I always felt like Sam was slightly younger than Frodo, more of a middle class working man (like late 20’s / early 30’s in human years) whereas Frodo was supposed to be way more middle aged, like mid to late 30’s. As good as Elijah Woods was at the role, it was crazy that they cast an 18 year old for it. I guess they really wanted to go for the youthful innocence and vulnerable thing over how he is depicted in the book.
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Oct 12, 2023 15:01
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Gollum does not call Sam fat afaict. Maybe I missed it The prolog does say that normally hobbits are fat tho
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Oct 12, 2023 15:32
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Apparently yeah, the whole fat thing is for the films and not in the book.
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Oct 12, 2023 15:37
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I mean, second breakfast is not typically a thing thin people have
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Oct 12, 2023 15:39
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jeeves posted:Apparently yeah, the whole fat thing is for the films and not in the book. In fact, all of the hobbits in the movies should be built like Sean Astin, the others were too thin. 7 meals a day and a cask of ale each evening will keep you nice and chubby.
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Oct 12, 2023 15:46
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Data Graham posted:That's really good, I particularly like the rendering of the MIrror visions It reminded me quite a bit of the Bakshi movie. I also get Prince Valiant vibes, but that's probably to be expected.
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Oct 12, 2023 16:38
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List of stuff described as “fat” in so many words in The Lord of the Rings. May not be exhaustive; stout, stocky, thick or whatever are not included Hobbits in general: “they are inclined to be fat and do not hurry unnecessarily” Fatty Bolger: eventually loses his epithet from a long stay in prison Fatty Lumpkin Butterbur: also the pony on his sign! Will Whitfoot, mayor of Michel Delving: “the fattest hobbit in the Westfarthing”! Bill the pony: debatable; fatter than he was at time of purchase, but at that time he looked starved Bombur: too fat to move without the aid of his six flunkeys Carrion-fowl: “fat on war”, according to Wormtongue. (He means Gandalf but I’m going to assume not literally.) Shelob Forlong the Fat, lord of Lossarnach Pukel-man statuary at Dunharrow: “fat bellies” Ghan-buri-Ghan: “fat-armed” whatever that means The Shire. A “fat little country” Special appendix bonus: Freca, the Rohirric/Dunlending lord that Helm Hammerhand punched in the face so hard he died
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Oct 12, 2023 16:55
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jeeves posted:I am pretty sure Gollum calls Sam fat a shitload, it’s just lost in all of the litany of other curse words he uses about him. I always liked how Frodo is very much a Confirmed Bachelor well into his middle-aged hobbit years with his faithful manservant, and it probably never occurred to JRRT what implications that may have.
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Oct 12, 2023 23:29
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He hangs out with aristocratic teenagers all day
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Oct 12, 2023 23:34
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Mike N Eich posted:I always liked how Frodo is very much a Confirmed Bachelor well into his middle-aged hobbit years with his faithful manservant, and it probably never occurred to JRRT what implications that may have. He went to public school and Oxford; he was then an Army officer, and went immediately to academia on demob where he spent the rest of his life. During which he was a deeply artistic type who liked poetry and literature and showed no particular aptitude for sport. There are about three people since 1750 who have lived this kind of life and not known exactly what all that meant, and two of them are lying. I cannot think of another life path where one would more likely to become acquainted with the living arrangements of homosexuals, discreet and otherwise. There are people who would have been out in St James's Park of an evening vada-ing for trade who would have been less likely to be aware of that particular reading. Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 00:37
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Not disagreeing with your overall point but wasn’t Tolkien into sport
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Oct 13, 2023 00:46
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Yeah he was p deece at rugby if I recall, at least up to a certain age
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Oct 13, 2023 00:52
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In the framing device of Tolkien as a modern translator of the Red Book, I imagine him as being just like other early 20th century historians who wrote about historical figures extremely obliviously, like "he/she never married, and remained chaste his/her whole life. also, unrelated, he/she exchanged many letters with someone of the same gender, professing their love for each other. . . as really close friends." I mean Sam did marry, technically, but imo he's bi and poly. Or maybe Rosie's his beard, idk.
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Oct 13, 2023 01:50
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Sam and Rosie had a record-setting thirteen kids, so I doubt it was a sham marriage.
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Oct 13, 2023 01:53
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Bongo Bill posted:Sam and Rosie had a record-setting thirteen kids, so I doubt it was a sham marriage. I stand corrected, though Tolkien is doing his Catholic upbringing a disservice if he thinks 13 is a lot. We had two families with thirteen kids each in my parish alone and my great grandmother was one of 21 (by two wives but one had 18). Oracle fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 02:11
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Oracle posted:That is nowhere near record setting if you look at the hobbit family trees. I think the Old Took cranked them out like a factory. Gerontius only had twelve kids.
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Oct 13, 2023 02:13
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Trin Tragula posted:He went to public school and Oxford; he was then an Army officer, and went immediately to academia on demob where he spent the rest of his life. During which he was a deeply artistic type who liked poetry and literature and showed no particular aptitude for sport. There were at least two closeted Inklings (one being Hugo Dyson, the “oh God, not another elf” guy). Tolkien was also a big fan of Mary Renault (she had been his student), especially her ancient Greece books which are gay as hell. I gotta say, I think he knew exactly what he was writing when he makes the douchebag miller of Hobbiton sneer about Bag End being a queer place with queer folk and having the gaffer answer “if that’s queer to you, we could do with some more queer round these parts”
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Oct 13, 2023 12:33
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The Gaffer ally status confirmed.
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Oct 13, 2023 12:36
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This polygon article was one I went into with some scepticism and came out pretty convinced by its arguments, so imo, he knew what he was doing, even if he was also probably uncomfortable with it.
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Oct 13, 2023 13:12
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LOTR is so desexualized that it's tough for me to read much into any character's sexuality in it. There's only one love story in it that's not background noise (Faramir/Eowyn) and even that involves them holding hands and I think kissing once? And professing love? Aragorn/Arwen's marriage is treated more like a state event than a profession of true love. Frodo and Sam's relationship is (I think) meant to be a traditional master/servant relationship where both end up platonically loving each other. Like a loyal butler who really loves his kind master. Sam is what Tolkien would have viewed as the ideal man servant and Frodo is what Tolkien would have viewed as the ideal aristocratic master. I don't think it's incorrect to do a deeper reading than that of Frodo and Sam's relationship in the books, but I never really got the impression that it was anything more than a platonic love when I read them. But my reading isn't the definitive way to go with it and I don't begrudge someone having that interpretation.
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Oct 13, 2023 17:35
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Couple of sections of HoME, Christopher Tolkien is clearly straining hard to avoid addressing the question -- I'm thinking specifically of Bilbo getting married in the first, quickly-discarded drafts of "Long Expected Party."
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Oct 13, 2023 17:48
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The story isn't interested in being a love story, but there is plenty of room for a romantic drama if you like. Or a romantic comedy, if you ignore the part where you know the ending is that Frodo gets increasingly ill from his wounds, resigns as mayor, writes his will, and sails to Valinor. Think of it: Sam torn between his down-to-earth childhood friend who was always secretly into him, and the wealthy and glamorous socialite with a heart of gold. Tolkien was obviously inspired by Archie comics.
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Oct 13, 2023 19:22
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Ginette Reno posted:LOTR is so desexualized that it's tough for me to read much into any character's sexuality in it. There's only one love story in it that's not background noise (Faramir/Eowyn) and even that involves them holding hands and I think kissing once? And professing love? Aragorn/Arwen's marriage is treated more like a state event than a profession of true love. In 2023, if two men are close, we all point and yell HOOOOOMMOOOOOO, but in an approving way.
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Oct 13, 2023 19:32
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I personally appreciate lotr as a depiction of intimacy without romance and get meaning out of his willingness to depict men being really deeply close to each other without sex being involved. Middle-Earth is a very sexless place in general
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Oct 13, 2023 20:29
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If you want sex in ME there's another thread that might interest you, but it has been dead for 2+ years now.
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Oct 13, 2023 20:36
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