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CuddleCryptid posted:Destroying a group of people is genocide. A nation is not it's people, No, a nation is a group of people. I just googled the definition of "nation" and here's the first result, from Oxford Languages, which sounds as decent as any other: quote:a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory If anyone said "the nation of Palestine should be destroyed" everyone would know that means destroying what composes that nation, which is the people. Calling for the destruction of the state is an obligation. Calling for the destruction of any nation is calling for genocide, because the destruction of a nation means the destruction of the national group which comprises it, which is genocide. Decon posted:English is a bad language lmao. There are no good armies or good languages, and the conflation of Nation and State is the ideology at the heart of Zionism and all corresponding atrocities.
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Oct 13, 2023 16:01
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Haystack posted:The moral framework that we both operate under that draws nice clean lines like "don't kill civilians" is just that, a framework, based on a tremendous number of social, historical, and material factors. A huge part of the reason why Israel is so upsetting is because their treatment their Palestinian subjects undermines the moral framework they claim to uphold. Israel routinely and passionately ignores the principle of "don't abuse people you don't like" and then get angry when the victims of their abuse lash out. Do you believe that lashing out, as occurred earlier by Hamas was justifiable? I don't. Not even a little.
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Oct 13, 2023 16:02
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A nation is, by definition, a body of people. That's what the word means. Calling for the elimination of a nation is, semantically, calling for the elimination of its people. It is entirely possible that someone saying that actually means they want the dissolution of the state apparatus, and that is probably how you'd read such a statement if you were reading it in good faith, but that is not what the word means.
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Oct 13, 2023 16:05
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Nothing in there is even remotely close to "Israel would still control all the borders, seaports, and air space." The Jordanian border temporarily having an international team at certain military checkpoints that included Israel and Palestine is extremely different from that. So an ethno-state no matter what the cost, huh? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 13, 2023 16:06
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Reuters reporting crew was hit by a mortar or artillery live shortly ago on the Lebanon border. No visuals but a lot of audio indicating it seemed like a direct and bad hit. I hate this.
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Oct 13, 2023 16:10
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CuddleCryptid posted:Destroying a group of people is genocide. A nation is not it's people, unless your assertion is that dismantling an ethnostate and allowing free citizenship is somehow genocidal which in that case holy poo poo. It's genocide if they say they want to destroy *Israelis*, but people are not the nation. As I said above, you can usually give posters the benefit of the doubt when they talk about destroying the Israeli state - maybe even nation - in isolation. Based on your posts I certainly would in your case. But the poster in question (Nix whatsisname) that prompted this derail said these things in the context of laying explicit blame on the entire people of Israel - that they were all guilty and deserved a reckoning, that 'justice' should be delivered by the hands of the Palestinian people, and that they deserved zero mercy. If a poster is talking about 'destroying a nation' in the same post as fantasizing over Palestinians inflicting righteous vengeance upon the collectively guilty Israeli public, then gently caress them - they are clearly not talking about the state - but its people too. Its fine - even correct - to be outraged over the plight of the Palestinian people. Its not fine - or good for your own mental wellbeing - to whip yourself up into a genocidal bloodlust. I don't think people who post like that belong here. EDIT: Another reason to hate shitheads like this, is that they prompt these derails - when the focus of the discussion should be about what is happening in Palestine - because the media certainly isn't focusing on it. Instead because some edgelords can't comprehend boundaries, we end up relitigating this same poo poo over and over.
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Oct 13, 2023 16:10
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It's a very grim assessment of the International Rules-Based Order and its designated paragons & villains that the only group that seems invested in doing something to prevent the Gaza Strip from being ethnically cleansed is Hezbollah.
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Oct 13, 2023 16:12
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Stringent posted:So an ethno-state no matter what the cost, huh? What do you even mean? The entire purpose of the peace process and two-state solution is to essentially create two different ethnostates. Even then, how is a proposal to have 15% of the Jordanian border being run by an international peacekeeping force for 5 years the thing that made you worried about the progress of the peace process for the last 80 years?
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Oct 13, 2023 16:13
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But there is the question of, why? What is the need for it? If it is to prevent the import of arms then it would have to be more comprehensive, if it is not then, well, what is the point exactly?
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Oct 13, 2023 16:15
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Walked posted:Reuters reporting crew was hit by a mortar or artillery live shortly ago on the Lebanon border. No visuals but a lot of audio indicating it seemed like a direct and bad hit. Can't find it on the website. Can you link the news story? E: Dehry posted:It's on their youtube page. The stream was up for like half an hour I see, thank you. Paladinus fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 16:18
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The nation-state of Israel as it is currently constituted, an apartheid state in which a demographic minority of its inhabitants withholds basic human rights from most of the demographic majority in order to maintain their undemocratic grip on power, should not exist. This can be achieved by changing the character of the state to reflect its demographic reality, by dividing the state so that both groups have their own state, or by ethnically cleansing one group or the other. I would think that any reasonable person would agree that the ethnic cleansing options should be off the table, and yet whenever someone suggests one of the first two options, hardline Israel apologists immediately conflate it with ethnically cleansing Israelis. Which is often used to tacitly argue for ethnically cleaning Palestinians as the only alternative to ethnically cleansing Israelis.
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Oct 13, 2023 16:18
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Paladinus posted:Can't find it on the website. Can you link the news story? It's on their youtube page. The stream was up for like half an hour
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Oct 13, 2023 16:19
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Do you believe that lashing out, as occurred earlier by Hamas was justifiable? I don't. Not even a little. Not particularly. The whole thing is obviously tragic. From Hamas's emotional standpoint it made a degree of sense; hurting your abuser is an attractive prospect. I can empathize with that, even if I consider what they did horrifying. But otherwise I view it from a fairly nihilistic standpoint. It's fairly obvious that Gaza's future is either eternal subjugation or cleansing. It's deeply hard to care that their abusers got some of their adjacent civilians killed in the process.
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Oct 13, 2023 16:21
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 16:22
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Do you believe that lashing out, as occurred earlier by Hamas was justifiable? I don't. Not even a little. For instance, you might understand why part of the Jewish diaspora wanted to form a nation for Jews, especially after WWII, but you might not endorse the imperialist result. Brucolac fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 16:24
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Private Speech posted:But there is the question of, why? What is the need for it? Because Jordan was part of the negotiations and Jordan wanted security guarantees on their border in exchange for a peace treaty with Israel and recognizing a Palestinian state. Israel was going to withdraw all of its security forces from the border and Jordan wanted a phased-in process to prevent chaos on their border. Part of Jordan's requirement was that a certain part of their border that Israel had previously run would instead be run by an international group that included staff from Israel and Jordan for 5 years to make sure that Jordan's border security was not disrupted and they would phase it in over 5 years (and Jordan wouldn't have to provide all the troops and money to do so). This was the Jordanian demand: quote:A withdrawal of Israeli armed forces will take place and there will be a redeployment of the remaining Israeli forces into specified security locations. The agreement will also include arrangements for assuring internal and external security and public order. A strong local police force will be established, which may include Jordanian citizens. In addition, Israeli and Jordanian forces will participate in joint patrols and in the manning of control posts to assure the security of the borders. When the self-governing authority (administrative council) in the West Bank and Gaza is established and inaugurated, the transitional period of five years will begin.
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Oct 13, 2023 16:24
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Hello. I'm thinking of trying to organize a little fundraiser for the people in Gaza, and donate all money to organizations that aid them with the medical assistance they will need. Doctor's Without Borders is a good bet, but do any of you know any other good organizations?
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Oct 13, 2023 16:25
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the holy poopacy posted:The nation-state of Israel as it is currently constituted, an apartheid state in which a demographic minority of its inhabitants withholds basic human rights from most of the demographic majority in order to maintain their undemocratic grip on power, should not exist. Jewish people are a supermajority in Israel, not a demographic minority. Even if you include the West Bank and Gaza, they still maintain a majority. Doesn't justify discrimination in the slightest, but don't report misinformation. Wikipedia posted:As of 31 December 2022, Israel's population was an estimated 9,656,000. In 2022, the civil government recorded 73.6% of the population as Jews, 21.1% of the population as Arabs, and 5.3% as "Others" (non-Arab Christians and people who have no religion listed).[11] Over the last decade, large numbers of migrant workers from Romania, Thailand, China, Africa, and South America have settled in Israel. Exact figures are unknown, as many of them are living in the country illegally,[300] but estimates run from 166,000 to 203,000.[301] By June 2012, approximately 60,000 African migrants had entered Israel.[302] About 93% of Israelis live in urban areas.[303] 90% of Palestinian Israelis reside in 139 densely populated towns and villages concentrated in the Galilee, Triangle and Negev regions, with the remaining 10% in mixed cities and neighbourhoods.[304][305][306][307][308] Data published by the OECD in 2016 estimated the average life expectancy of Israelis at 82.5 years, making it the 6th-highest in the world.[309] Israeli Arab life expectancy lags behind by 3 to 4 years,[310][311] still higher than almost every majority Arab or Muslim country in the world.[312][313] Crazy Joe Wilson fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 16:26
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Haystack posted:It's deeply hard to care that their abusers got some of their adjacent civilians killed in the process. You don't actually have to be nihilistically indifferent to their suffering. You can be outraged and also blame the Israeli state for the attack, in part or in full.
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Oct 13, 2023 16:29
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 16:32
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the holy poopacy posted:I would think that any reasonable person would agree that the ethnic cleansing options should be off the table I would agree, which is why it's important to reject any attempt to suggest ethnic cleansing is justified like: -cheering on ethnic cleansing done by Israel or Hamas, or suggesting that such crimes are acceptable if done for the right cause, or can't be criticized if done for the right cause, or are comparable to laudable freedom fighters. -saying that Israelis or Palestinians should all just leave and go somewhere else. -actually calling for the entire nation of Palestine or Israel to be destroyed. And we've had all three here in this discussion this week. The IDF and Hamas atrocities are nauseating, and it's totally despairing to see multiple people here basically accept the right-wing zionist position that only one nation can survive, and even that only one nation deserves to survive.
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Oct 13, 2023 16:33
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mannerup posted:wanted to bring this post back up because Financial Times retracted that paragraph from their article and did not leave a correction note (archived version here with the paragraph intact) Huh, weird. Fox News, NBC, ITV still have the quote up, and it's literally on video: https://www.tiktok.com/@itvnews/video/7289047857506602272 The video honestly makes it worse, because he delivers that, unprompted, when asked about minimizing harm to civilians. On a geopolitics note: https://www.reuters.com/article/israel-palestinians-putin-gaza-idAFS8N3A2088 quote:Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday compared Israel’s blockade of the Gaza Strip to Nazi Germany’s siege of Leningrad during World War Two and called for a resolution to the conflict to be reached through mediation. Looks like Kadyrov managed to pursuade Putin.
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Oct 13, 2023 16:37
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State-to-state relations require effective enforcement of commitments not to host attackers on other countries; you can't get out of it by saying well it's not our forces doing it, it's just some guys we can't control. In that case the other state is predictably going to demand the right to do so on your behalf. The apparent intransigence of Palestinian representatives at the negotiating table in this period stems, I think, from the unexpected success of rockets in the early 2000s, where their use rapidly grew from dozens to hundreds to thousands. This displaced suicide bombings as the primary option (remember those?) and suddenly rendered irrelevant peace process security strategies that hinged on mechanisms that penalized suicide bombings. And it also presented representatives with a challenge in effectively policing their use - it was not sufficient to control border checkpoints, but also anywhere from which a rocket might be fired by a rival militia. That rival gains, also, from the prestige of being able to act unilaterally. Every peace process requires that the negotiators be able to isolate the abstentionists politically in their own camp, and this became very difficult in the oughts. It's both true that the deal on the table was better than it had ever been in decades, given the geopolitical weakness of the PLO position by the time, and yet not perhaps better than it seemed like it could become. It is only too human to assume that a trend of a few years would continue forever.
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Oct 13, 2023 16:39
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Tigey posted:As I said above, you can usually give posters the benefit of the doubt when they talk about destroying the Israeli state - maybe even nation - in isolation. Based on your posts I certainly would in your case. I appreciate you looking at my pov, and I'm mostly pushing back on that because in the case you mentioned the problem isn't that dismantling a nation is genocide, it's that the poster wants to genocide. It sounds like a small detail but it's critical because equating a nation with its people, and implying that changing a nation is changing its people, is the whole basis of the nonsensical "any criticism of Israel is antisemitism" taken one step further. Advocating for a state to be changed to allow all people to act in it rather than it being an ethnostate isn't anywhere near that, and non-Zionist jews agree. There is also the idea that the idea of opening borders to people who aren't part of your ethnic group is a form of genocide which has been ringing out of the mouths of some real nasty groups. I mean poo poo call it Israel still, keep the flag, who gives a gently caress. But that isn't going to fly with anyone involved. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 16:42
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Darth Walrus posted:Just out of curiosity, why is the median age in Gaza so insanely low? Like, I can guess the generalities (Gaza is not an environmental readily conducive to human life for a billion different reasons), but I'm curious about the exact demographic pressures and wondered if anyone had provided more detailed specifics on what the biggest factors affecting it were. Low median ages aren't uncommon among very poor countries. The median age in Gaza is only a little lower than the median age in Somalia. Few economic opportunities, low life expectancies, and high infant mortality tend to combine to push the median age way down. A lack of economic opportunities tends to disproportionately push women and the elderly out of the workforce, high infant mortality incentivizes having more kids in general, and having more kids around helps fill in various labor needs families can't really afford to pay someone else to do for them. Mr Lanternfly posted:This is a subject I'm not familiar with so sorry if this is a stupid question, but... There isn't really a unified plan, since there's different political factions with different intentions for the West Bank and the Palestinian people. For the Israeli center-left, the best-case scenario is "in exchange for small territorial concessions, the Palestinians give up all their claims to the land forever and never bother Israel again". For the Israeli far-right, the least-bloody scenario is "all the Palestinians voluntarily leave the Palestinian territories and give up all their claims to the land forever, and never bother Israel again". Israeli policy toward Palestinians isn't really the result of a clear coherent plan. It's more the result of political push-and-pull between the parties that want to annex the whole West Bank, the parties that care more about international opinion than annexing more land, and the parties that don't really care either way and would prefer more attention on their domestic pet issues. It ends up in a compromise policy of general oppression which gets slightly worse or better depending on the power balance between parties. The right-wing has been on top the last couple of decades, but not to a point where the "annex the West Bank right now" parties can do whatever they want, so the oppression just slowly gets worse as the national-religious factions and settler factions slowly pull things in their direction one small concession at a time.
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Oct 13, 2023 16:43
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Jewish people are a supermajority in Israel, not a demographic minority. Even if you include the West Bank and Gaza, they still maintain a majority. The West Bank and Gaza have some degree of autonomy but they are still administered by Israel. As long as Israel asserts a claim to those territories over any other state, those populations should properly be reckoned as part of the nation of Israel. Regardless, I did recheck my math and I was incorrectly attributing West Bank settlers to the Palestinian population, so mea culpa. The borders occupied by Israel do indeed contain a slim majority of Israeli Jews, but I would still argue that the lack of representation afforded to the Palestinians is fundamentally antidemocratic.
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Oct 13, 2023 16:47
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 16:51
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CuddleCryptid posted:I appreciate you looking at my pov, and I'm mostly pushing back on that because in the case you mentioned the problem isn't that dismantling a nation is genocide, it's that the poster wants to genocide. The problem is that you believe "state" and "nation" are interchangable - I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just inferring from how you use the terms interchangeably as if they're synonymous. This is the idea actually at play in Zionism, which is an attempt to refashion the Jewish nation/nation of Israel into a modern European nation-state. A nation really is a group of people, and calling for the destruction of that group is calling for genocide. Again, if the poster had said "the nation of Palestine must be destroyed, its people must face a reckoning" then nobody would confuse that for "the Palestinian state needs major reforms or replacement altogether."
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Oct 13, 2023 16:52
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Jewish people are a supermajority in Israel, not a demographic minority. Even if you include the West Bank and Gaza, they still maintain a majority. And if you include the over 2 million refugees in Jordan? The refugee camps in Syria? Lebanon? Israel sees the right of return as an existential threat precisely because of their demographic minority.
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Oct 13, 2023 16:53
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So really dumb question. But let's say Israel decided to do the right thing one day in regards to the Palestinian territory. What exactly would that mean? Would that mean they tear down the border walls/fences and border crossings? And allow unrestricted movement for Palestinians and give them full citizenship? And obviously stop doing the genocide against them?
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Oct 13, 2023 16:57
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Charliegrs posted:So really dumb question. But let's say Israel decided to do the right thing one day in regards to the Palestinian territory. What exactly would that mean? Would that mean they tear down the border walls/fences and border crossings? And allow unrestricted movement for Palestinians and give them full citizenship? And obviously stop doing the genocide against them? Integration and reform would be a process of decades.
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Oct 13, 2023 16:58
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Charliegrs posted:So really dumb question. But let's say Israel decided to do the right thing one day in regards to the Palestinian territory. What exactly would that mean? Would that mean they tear down the border walls/fences and border crossings? And allow unrestricted movement for Palestinians and give them full citizenship? And obviously stop doing the genocide against them? No. It would be just like any other country. Israel could still regulate immigration into their territory and they aren't required to give people from another country citizenship. Same would apply for the new Palestinian state. The two-state solution is entirely about getting a Palestinian state and giving them citizenship in an independent Palestine. They can make agreements and develop their own systems like all other countries and work it out, though. Giving the Palestinians a state and then making them all Israeli citizens wouldn't really make a lot of sense because you would have either an empty citizenless country or a bunch of one-way dual citizens. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 16:59
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 17:06
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Ok then so what I don't understand about the 2 state solution is what areas would be the Palestinian state? Gaza and the West Bank? And if they become a separate country how is that any different than what they are now? And yes Im well aware my questions are dumb and come from a place of ignorance. But see I'm American, and American media most likely has purposely created such a pro Israel narrative that you have to really dig to learn the truth about what's going on in the region. And most Americans aren't going to do that. Therefore you end up with "Israel good for *reasons*. Palestinians bad because they are just like ISIS and Al Quaeda"
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Oct 13, 2023 17:08
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Walked posted:Reuters reporting crew was hit by a mortar or artillery live shortly ago on the Lebanon border. No visuals but a lot of audio indicating it seemed like a direct and bad hit. It looks like one of the journalists died after an Israeli tank fired upon an Al Jazeera news vehicle nearby AP, Al Jazeera and Reuters reporters: https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1712859648280162526 There are very severe injuries to several other journalists as well. Looks like Israel wasn't messing around with regard to their stance on Al Jazeera. Edit: Be careful on social media if you search for this incident. There are some very grisly photos/videos of one of the injured reporters. B B fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 17:09
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Civilized Fishbot posted:The problem is that you believe "state" and "nation" are interchangable - I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just inferring from how you use the terms interchangeably as if they're synonymous. This is the idea actually at play in Zionism, which is an attempt to refashion the Jewish nation/nation of Israel into a modern European nation-state. Fair point, and I am using them interchangeably. If someone said to destroy the nation of Palestine then it would be indeed questionable because Palestine...well, it largely doesn't have a State. However, in common usage they are use interchangeably because they are very similar. To separate the two in Israel's case in a way that implies a genocide of Jewish people would be to say that the nation of Israel only covers 75% of state citizens, which just doesn't make sense for any nation with a formal state and concept of citizenship. There are cases where members of a nation are not part of a representative state, such as with undocumented people, but "nation within a state" is uncommon. But I'm also engaged in divining what individuals posters meant when taken literally or by intention, which is a fool's errand. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 17:11
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Charliegrs posted:Ok then so what I don't understand about the 2 state solution is what areas would be the Palestinian state? Gaza and the West Bank? And if they become a separate country how is that any different than what they are now? And yes Im well aware my questions are dumb and come from a place of ignorance. But see I'm American, and American media most likely has purposely created such a pro Israel narrative that you have to really dig to learn the truth about what's going on in the region. And most Americans aren't going to do that. Therefore you end up with "Israel good for *reasons*. Palestinians bad because they are just like ISIS and Al Quaeda" Well the big thing is that Israel controls the borders including the sea (jointly in places with Egypt and Jordan), both for the movement of people and goods, regularly intervenes militarily, Palestinian institutions are not free to access international forums or markets and particularly in west bank Israelis would not be able to settle on palestinian land, nor would Israeli policemen and army be able to act freely in those areas.
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Oct 13, 2023 17:15
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Charliegrs posted:Ok then so what I don't understand about the 2 state solution is what areas would be the Palestinian state? Gaza and the West Bank? And if they become a separate country how is that any different than what they are now? And yes Im well aware my questions are dumb and come from a place of ignorance. But see I'm American, and American media most likely has purposely created such a pro Israel narrative that you have to really dig to learn the truth about what's going on in the region. And most Americans aren't going to do that. Therefore you end up with "Israel good for *reasons*. Palestinians bad because they are just like ISIS and Al Quaeda" Right now, Gaza and the West Bank have two separate unofficial governments, Israel controls the movement between the two territories, Israel runs the security situation in the West Bank and has settlers that are setting up homes in areas of the West Bank that are supposed to be part of a future Palestinian state. Making them a state would have them run like a normal country. You can't just come in and set up residency or construct houses according to Israeli law, you have your own police, one single government that has final authority for governing the area, control over their borders, citizenship, immigration, airspace, etc.
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Oct 13, 2023 17:16
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https://twitter.com/AkbarSAhmed/status/1712860751193403683?t=ffrC7mRZYVUl7EOlHmdknw&s=19 The United States won't be doing anything to convince Israel to take their foot off the gas pedal. Whatever goodwill Biden might have gotten from doing the right thing on Afghanistan he's giving up by cheerleading this unfettered violence by the IDF.
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Oct 13, 2023 17:18
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fool of sound posted:Integration and reform would be a process of decades. Considering Germany still has issues with integrating the East into the West...yeah. Decades at the least.
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Oct 13, 2023 17:19
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