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Cythereal posted:I was under the impression that was the *ending* cinematic for the first campaign. Certainly nothing played when I first messed around.
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Oct 12, 2023 16:02
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anilEhilated posted:That is definitely the intro to TFT. It doesn't even make sense to put it after the first campaign. I've never actually played TFT, so.
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Oct 12, 2023 16:04
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anilEhilated posted:That is definitely the intro to TFT. It doesn't even make sense to put it after the first campaign. Yeah. I distinctly remember teen me seeing it on starting and thinking it was the raddest poo poo.
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Oct 12, 2023 16:09
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It's also worth noting that that cinematic, serving as the Intro Cinematic for Frozen Throne in general (IE, back when we were working with CDs, that was the cinematic that would play when you first opened the game itself, much like Reign of Chaos with the cinematic with the Infernal), this was also the very first ever look at Illidan's new form. The end of his mission in the original Night Elf Campaign simply used the Demon Hunter's metamorphosis form, which before Reforged, was much simpler and used a flat pure black texture across the whole model.
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Oct 12, 2023 16:36
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BlazetheInferno posted:It's also worth noting that that cinematic, serving as the Intro Cinematic for Frozen Throne in general (IE, back when we were working with CDs, that was the cinematic that would play when you first opened the game itself, much like Reign of Chaos with the cinematic with the Infernal), this was also the very first ever look at Illidan's new form. The end of his mission in the original Night Elf Campaign simply used the Demon Hunter's metamorphosis form, which before Reforged, was much simpler and used a flat pure black texture across the whole model. unusually lazy effect, tbh
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Oct 12, 2023 17:55
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I think the idea was more than it was a shadowy form than a physical one, but it just... didn't work.
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Oct 12, 2023 18:12
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So, the thing with the super long lived elves is that, as is very often the case in the Western fantasy genre at large, much of it comes from people vaguely cribbing off of Tolkien (or more likely, cribbing off of someone eles who's cribbing off of Tolkien, or however long the chain goes). But the thing is, elves are often presented also as just...normal people who also just so happen to live an extraordinary long time. That's not how the OG elves worked! Remember, Tolkien deeply valued the idea / ideal of "simple rural living;" elves lived in what was close to an Edenic / Arcadian paradise, just without the pasturing and shepharding part. They took great joy in learning and creation of art; ate relatively simple meals; spend their time enjoying things. They're not real people! They aren't intended to be real people. They're closer to spirits then they are humans (literally, their souls were stronger then their flesh, which is why they don't actually fully die even when killed, insert meme here). Tolkien's solution to immortality was real simple: elves very literally do not get bored doing the same thing forever, because that's the thing they love to do. They don't even have to neccessarily master it - becoming the greatest isn't really the goal. It was the race of Men ("men" used in the Old English / Germanic sense to mean human, not literally male, in this case) who's spirits were blessed with death that pushed them forward to achieve things of greatness.
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Oct 12, 2023 18:28
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I hate to bring 40K into this, but I think even that does 'long-lived elves' better than Warcraft, in that the Eldar/Aeldari have to constantly and consciously shift their interests lest they become absolutely obsessed with said interests, almost like what ProfessorCirno noted about Tolkien's elves. Honestly, I can kind of buy the NE's personalities if the writers just divided their ages and timelines by 100, and filled in the missing time they needed with extra bullshit. It's not like they wouldn't do that, after all.
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Oct 12, 2023 19:04
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You've got that whole slumber theme going on with the Emerald Dream, just Rip Van Winkle the entire populace, so they're only dimly aware of the passage of time, only waking up from time to time to drowsily reset the tree, all pissed off for their campaign because they were woken up off schedule and have a bad case of the grumpies.
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Oct 12, 2023 21:48
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Have the years meld together into a grey haze of routine, make the nelves wander in a half sleep world, then suddenly wake up in a cold sweat as their sleep dulled minds register the changes, ten thousand years of apathy and anhedonia suddenly shoved out the door as their world explodes into life again. Not wholy nice life though. Have the centuries of known things shackle them until they finish shaking themselves down, the nelves go from slow and hieratic, going through the motions, to twitchy, excited and focused.
SIGSEGV fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 22:00
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I really liked the Demon Hunter Metamorphosis model that was just pure black. 
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Oct 12, 2023 22:02
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When I played the game, I didn't understand english and the game wasn't translated. So I had to let my imagination fill in the gaps. I remember the culling of that city mostly because when you can't read what the hell is written, good luck understanding that you're supposed to use the attack button you virtually never use otherwise to bring down buildings. Also, it scared me to hell and back to be on a race with a demon, because I had played enough games for 8 year old me to understand that the counter at the top of the screen meant just that: a race. So I used the cheat codes to wreck the opposing army, and then wondered why the hell the mission didn't end. I still don't know how I found teh solution, but eventually, I did. Apart, from that, it's crazy how an overactive imagination and complete lack of understanding of a language can make a game mysterious and quite fascinating. Once you understand what's written and said... yeah. I can only agree with the critics Cythereal made. What really struck me is how repetitive the campaigns felt in terms of structure. There's always someone's who's hot headed and prone to mistakes (Arthas, axe ork and bow elf), someone who gets corrupted (Arthas again, axe ork again and the ninja dual wielding elf), and someone who's just a tad more reasonable/flat to survive to the end game to be a representative of the race (Jaina, hammer ork, elf druid). These three archetypes always take center stage. Like, I get that you need to start slow when introducing a new campaign, but between the destruction wrought by the legions, the potential struggles brought by being part of a very secluded race, or a race that used to be slaves, there were many things to talk about. Instead we get the "hot head makes a mistake, someone gets corrupted, someone saves more or les the day" triad. I liked the undead campaign mainly because it went away from it and followed cursed souls on their way to summon the apocalypse. The human campaign becomes the best written one on account of taking more time with the scnaristic triad, and avoiding the needless fillers like druid awakening stuff. They just give themselves the time to show a slow descent into extremist methods and subsequent corruption, and then deal with the aftermath in the undead campaign. It gives the possibility for the characters to express themelves. Unlike the way it's handled later, with three missions in a row and the corruption arc is done. I don't know why they were so hell-bent on reusing the same pattern again and again, maybe it was just easier. One point I would bring up is that I'm not certain the writers intended for the players to feel one way or another. I won't call myself a writer, but between unpublished books and short stories I wrote, it's often just a case of "oh, I like that, let's go that way." And it's only when rereading it years later that you realize some parts were good, and others were utterly dumb (oh boy, did I do some bad ones). I'm sure there are very technical writers who shape stories with specific intents and reactions in mind, but I wouldn't be surprised either if a bunch of tabletop game fans just wrote what they liked and didn't give a thought about what the player should or should not feel, and were promptly done with it. Mindopali fucked around with this message at 11:55 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 11:49
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I have only fond memories of WC3 and seeing it treated so poorly leaves me a bit perturbed. Unfortunate really.
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Oct 13, 2023 12:17
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My favourite take on really long lived elves is that actually their memories are only about as good as human memories so unless they write stuff down and actually take the time to study their memories they don't remember poo poo about history unless it was a particularly important moment. Illidan seems relatively 'normal' once he's sprung because his millennia of imprisonment were pretty monotonous, so they didn't really stick in the mind other than whenever the wardens taunted him.
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Oct 13, 2023 12:40
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tithin posted:I have only fond memories of WC3 and seeing it treated so poorly leaves me a bit perturbed. By my lights, Blizzard have only themselves to blame. I had fond memories of WC3, too.
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Oct 13, 2023 12:40
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bewilderment posted:My favourite take on really long lived elves is that actually their memories are only about as good as human memories so unless they write stuff down and actually take the time to study their memories they don't remember poo poo about history unless it was a particularly important moment. I like that take on elves. There's even natural conflict created ala the ship of theseus argument. Elves becoming entirely different people than they were in the past, to the point where sometimes old friends may get confused over their current selves.
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Oct 13, 2023 12:55
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For what it's worth, every time I've written a seriously long-lived character (as in, thousands of years) and tried to get inside their head, I keep coming back to portraying them as an obsessive, intensely focused personality that usually comes across as (or outright is) insanity to their more human peers. People deeply driven to accomplish some task that seems impossible to [normal] humans, but they have the patience and the drive and the obsessive personality to keep at this seemingly futile task for longer than most human nations have ever existed for.
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Oct 13, 2023 13:03
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PurpleXVI posted:The weirdest thing is that technically he represents an interesting opposition to other characters: Power at any cost to defend ourselves vs accepting weakness to ensure that we're still worth defending. It's a classic bit of story writing which more or less always comes down on the second side because we all know there are good reasons some things are considered war crimes(and any fiction that comes down on the former side tends to have very, very odd authors). The alternative perspecive is that Illidan is just better than most people and he can take the maluses of demon-ness and not become corrupted. Entire peoples fallen to the deprications of fel magicks? Naw, skill issue. Makes for a unique admixture of a trope, where rather than power corrupting, it corrupts only the weak and poo poo people.
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Oct 13, 2023 13:16
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DariusJonna posted:Makes for a unique admixture of a trope, where rather than power corrupting, it corrupts only the weak and poo poo people. I do not feel like "the inherently superior humans can be trusted with incredible power and control over the rest of us" is necessarily unique or interesting, I'm pretty sure I've seen it before in writing that I wasn't happy with.
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Oct 13, 2023 19:49
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Oh, sure, but they've inadvertently made it mildly interesting, the one chosen by the universe to handle all that power is a counterproductive and stupid rear end in a top hat.
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Oct 13, 2023 19:55
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My problem with the theme of power corrupting as it applies here is that it has, to me, never felt more boring then when it's "using this magic will just somehow brainwash you into evil." The Arthas storyline works because he isn't "corrupted" because someone cast Corrupt Prince, a level 9 spell, and he failed his saving throw. You see how his need for both revenge and "justice" twist him into accepting increasingly terrible things, step by step, until he hits a point of "I would allow any amount of evil to happen if it meant I could kill the one who destroyed my country and my life." It isn't that there was a magical corrupting force brainwashing and changing him - he was fully conscious of every horrible thing he did or allowed to happen, each time being another line crossed, until finally he accepted that it wasn't even about justice anymore - it was purely personal, and he absolutely would accept serving the same master as Mal'Ganis if it meant he could get his personal revenge. And, once the deed is done, well, he's the savior of Lordaeron, isn't he? The glorious prince who lead the battle against the great evil! Of course he should be in charge. He earned it. It's also why the undead campaign is the start of the story tripping over itself, because so much of Arthas' character is then just kinda dustbinned.
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Oct 13, 2023 20:05
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DariusJonna posted:The alternative perspecive is that Illidan is just better than most people and he can take the maluses of demon-ness and not become corrupted. Entire peoples fallen to the deprications of fel magicks? Naw, skill issue. This is legitimately Illidan's perspective: he subscribes fully to Great Man theory, and he of course is the greatest of men. To me, he's a clown, a funny and pitiful edgelord who the writers want me to think is way more cool than I actually do. Gameplay mechanics aside, anyone could have destroyed the Skull of Gul'dan and killed Tichondrius. The most you can say for Illidan in Reign of Chaos is that he's a good enough fighter to have pulled off a mission that would have cost more lives otherwise. It's only as time goes on that the writers start really enthusiastically agreeing with Illidan and thinking you should agree with him, too. Personally I just laugh at him and move on.
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Oct 13, 2023 20:15
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I think Warcraft 3, specifically, is pretty solid about the whole corruption deal. Arthas is a good story on it but also I think actually the worst about "failing your Corruption throw" - he gets most of the way there by himself but as soon as he picks up Frostmourne he's just now switched sides, no further goading needed. I don't think it would have been hard to have Ner'zhul continue to push Arthas about how the best way to protect his people is to have them join the Scourge rather than let the demons destroy them in their invasion - in fact you could set the whole Undead campaign as Arthas justifying his actions as defending Lordaeron against ever less logical enemies as he loses sight of his motivations. Grom's corruption arc is rushed, sure, but the story does present it as him being an addict falling off the wagon. He doesn't willingly serve Mannoroth the second the demon blood touches his lips, he's still resisting when he realises what he got himself into but by that point everyone knows he's gone too deep to pull himself back out. And Illidan doesn't actually have a corruption arc here at all. He eats the skull of Gul'dan, sure, and becomes a demonic being of some sort, but he's just as sane as he was before and equally motivated to defend the forest - which is, admittedly, "not very" on both counts. He took on demonic power to kill Tichondrius, then killed Tichondrius, then Malfurion kicked him out and he left willingly because he didn't want to fight. He's shown as much more pushed by the Night Elves' rejection of his point of view than any desire to help the Legion. The "demon juice will twist your soul" stuff sets in much harder in WoW.
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Oct 13, 2023 20:25
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You free Illidan and then he immediately eats the closest demonic artifact and then murders the closest demon. You absolutely got what you bargained for.
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Oct 13, 2023 22:31
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The funny thing is that on the context of Warcraft 3 alone, Illidan didn't really do anything wrong. He ate the demonic artifact and killed the demon with no collateral damage. Malfurion blew up his race's ancestral tree to kill his demon. And one wonders if that wouldn't have been necessary if he didn't chase Illidan off.
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Oct 13, 2023 23:11
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Keldulas posted:The funny thing is that on the context of Warcraft, Illidan didn't really do anything wrong.
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Oct 13, 2023 23:26
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Illidan did everything wrong except this. And possibly even this. But that's why I find him entertaining.
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Oct 13, 2023 23:43
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Tenebrais posted:I think Warcraft 3, specifically, is pretty solid about the whole corruption deal. Arthas is a good story on it but also I think actually the worst about "failing your Corruption throw" - he gets most of the way there by himself but as soon as he picks up Frostmourne he's just now switched sides, no further goading needed. Well, that was the point. Accepting Frostmourne meant accepting the power for revenge at any price. Picking up the sword was the last step in his road to damnation. ProfessorCirno posted:It's also why the undead campaign is the start of the story tripping over itself, because so much of Arthas' character is then just kinda dustbinned. I think the biggest stumbling block the narrative had is actually the Orc campaign. The Scourge story would dovetail nicely into a growing threat to the Night Elves. A Night Elf campaign that wasn't poo poo would pick that up, run with it, and give you some actual missions in the story other than very very slowly accumulating your entire roster. The Orcs kind of kill that pacing and really have very little to do with the Night Elves or the Scourge. Sure, Grom does his whole thing, but that's very tangential to the actual story of the demons trying to take the worldtree. They honestly should have lead with the orcs, focused the entire orc campaign around dealing with the demons and reconciling the new horde with the old horde, and then the legion interacting with the orcs is a prelude to the events that will occur later. Arthas then falls in the Alliance campaign, leads the Scourge to resurrect Kelly, and then we switch to the Night Elf perspective as the demons start encroaching and invading, with Thrall and Jaina entreating the Night Elves with the stories of how the demons attacked people who they were very close to, and volunteering to be the front lines against the incoming demonic threat. Have some cutscenes in the Nelf mission talking about how humans and orcs are clashing with the Scourge in and around the forest in the buildup to the final mission. The added bonus is that we don't see much of Medivh and he can just be implied in the background.
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Oct 14, 2023 01:37
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There are so many dumb things about this story and how it's told, but one that really stands out to me looking back on it is how Medivh wasn't just unnecessary, he was actively detrimental. It feels like they thought they needed him to get Thrall and Jaina to Kalimdor but...they didn't at all? It's totally reasonable for a refugee people like the orcs to flee a long way in search of a better life, and having him find a mention of it in captured documents or something and actively decide to lead his people there makes him a stronger and more active character. And Jaina is fleeing the destruction of her entire homeland - sure, you could ask why she goes there rather than south to the allied lands, but anything from going off course to hearing rumors about ancient powers there (tie-in to the NEs) to being afraid the undead aren't going to be stoppable on that continent all explain it. Everyone else ignores Medivh in ways that don't accomplish anything, and as Cythereal points out, it'd be an equally believable and better story if the folks over there figured out they need to work together rather than having him show up and tell them all to get along; heck, the initial confused skirmishes would make a lot more sense if they hadn't both been sent there by the same wizard. Pretty astounding that you could just remove him from the narrative, change it in minor and very obvious ways, and end up with a mild improvement.
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Oct 14, 2023 02:50
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Kul Tiras just straight up knows Kalimdor exists and go there sometimes canonically at this point. The Western Continent is a known detail for the majority sea-faring nation. Mostly because it's considered a bit of a pirate haven at the South End. Or at least a good place to lay low and smuggle non-perishables. Goblins also know about it and Kul'tiras has trade deals with Goblin Cartels. Medivh could have been used as an anti-Legion keystone somehow without being the lovely architect. His regret over being controlled by Sargeras. Maybe Jaina actively seeking him out as Dalaran knows he hosed off to Kalimdor? Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Oct 14, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 02:53
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Good points there. My overall take-away is that Kalimdor doesn't really work, honestly. They try to basically use it as a refresh of setting and then do nothing at all with it really. Hell, Northrend was better executed, and that was contained entirely within the human campaign.
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Oct 14, 2023 09:33
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You know, what if they went deeper on the "Night Elves are sleepy druids," but all of them are asleep(you could even have them in some distant part of Azeroth that way, negating the entire need for Kalimdor except for Big Tree which someone would probably have noticed by now)? And the Demon Alarm Clock goes "bing bong bing bong" and Tyrande and Malfurion get up from their nap and have to awaken the entire civilization(in the first two missions or so) and then fight the Legion? Could even explain why groups like the Tauren aren't aware of them, 10000 years mostly asleep rather than awake would explain why they aren't all elite badasses worth an entire army or distinctly inhuman, could explain why the orcs get to do some logging at first and then suddenly angry arrow women show up to protest. In hindsight I think it would be a relatively simple fix for a lot of stuff.
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Oct 14, 2023 09:40
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PurpleXVI posted:You know, what if they went deeper on the "Night Elves are sleepy druids," but all of them are asleep(you could even have them in some distant part of Azeroth that way, negating the entire need for Kalimdor except for Big Tree which someone would probably have noticed by now)? And the Demon Alarm Clock goes "bing bong bing bong" and Tyrande and Malfurion get up from their nap and have to awaken the entire civilization(in the first two missions or so) and then fight the Legion? It would also have Cenarius declaring "Oh the DEMONS, ok I see" when he sees the orcs make more sense. It was always kinda weird; the demons have been gone forever, then these weird jacked green dudes show up and start chopping trees, and he just declares on the spot "the demons are invading! KILL THEM ALL!" Likewise it sorta makes Illidan's prison make a bit more sense if he'd *also* been KO'd that whole time. It changes it from a "Illidan must be in prison forever" to "Illidan is a box we do not open unless it is the most dire of emergencies," and you could have Malfurion and Tyrande sharply disagree on if it's emergency enough to open the Illidan Box.
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Oct 14, 2023 11:35
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Every Night Elf was asleep also makes Illidan's situation less cruel and unusual punishment. Sealed in tiny box conscious vs kept asleep in tiny box is a lot different.
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Oct 14, 2023 11:42
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ProfessorCirno posted:It would also have Cenarius declaring "Oh the DEMONS, ok I see" when he sees the orcs make more sense. It was always kinda weird; the demons have been gone forever, then these weird jacked green dudes show up and start chopping trees, and he just declares on the spot "the demons are invading! KILL THEM ALL!" Well, he could still sense the demon's corruption on them, and he knows how cunning the Legion can be. Even if they weren't full demons, he probably assumed they were a part of some sort of demon plot to destroy them(which he wasn't entirely wrong about).
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Oct 14, 2023 12:50
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Cythereal posted:This is legitimately Illidan's perspective: he subscribes fully to Great Man theory, and he of course is the greatest of men. For what it's worth, Xe'ra and her whitewashing of the purple fuckup got so much blowback from the playerbase they had to emergency course-correct, so I think the fanbase at large mostly agrees with you, except they still find Illidan cool not despite him being an edgelord clown but because he's an edgelord clown. The intended characterization here in W3 is that of a very skilled individual that nonetheless is also a power-hungry (and Tyrande-thirsty) dumbass that keeps writing checks he can't cash. And considering how much skill he actually has his fuckups are the stuff of legends.
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Oct 14, 2023 13:01
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Omobono posted:For what it's worth, Xe'ra and her whitewashing of the purple fuckup got so much blowback from the playerbase they had to emergency course-correct, so I think the fanbase at large mostly agrees with you, except they still find Illidan cool not despite him being an edgelord clown but because he's an edgelord clown. I straight up don't think the Xe'Ra thing was an emergency course-correct. Animations aren't easy to make that fast, and Xe'ra was basically the only character in Legion banging that particular narrative drum in the first place.
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Oct 14, 2023 13:07
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PurpleXVI posted:I do not feel like "the inherently superior humans can be trusted with incredible power and control over the rest of us" is necessarily unique or interesting, I'm pretty sure I've seen it before in writing that I wasn't happy with. Hearing you say it like that, I dig what you mean. In my head, I was thinking about the larger context of all the WoW peeps who've been described becoming corrupted and stuff, all the while this dude Illidan who is deadass not affected by a force and the closest explanation is 'git gud'. Isn't dissonant, I suppose. I doubt there is a writer in the blizz room who cares much about themes or thematic dissonance. It just implies and reinforces my academia-poisoned feelings on this property: it has the implication of narrative depth, but none of the water. Not a bad thing, mind, just bad here. DariusJonna fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Oct 14, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 14:03
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I think Illidan seething for 10,000 years kind of made him into a demon anyway. Like, he's just so full of hate and pain that nothing demonic artifacts can inflict on him is worse.
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Oct 14, 2023 14:45
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The Frozen Throne Introduction It's a bit late, but [thankfully positive] real life stuff has been happening that has preoccupied me.  And yeah, I had to go into the campaign mission select, scroll back up, and then specifically play this cinematic.  This cinematic consists of Illidan's favorite hobby next to lusting after his sister-in-law: a brooding monologue.  This line right here sums up Illidan's character in a nutshell as far as I'm concerned: he is completely convinced he's the main character of the universe.  I think one of the problems surrounding Illidan's portrayal in Reign of Chaos is that we don't actually have any clear measure of how important or useful freeing him actually was. We never saw anyone else ever take a swing at Tichondrius, it's quite possible that Tichondrius and the Skull of Gul'dan could have been taken care of by anyone. We know he's considered a match for Arthas in a fair fight, but that's about it.  The story's never really dwelled on it, but I think that Illidan's thing of being hated and hunted by night elf society is probably based on him being a living reminder of the night elves' ugly past. He almost created a second Well of Eternity, the power source that fueled the Kaldorei Empire's tyrannical reign of conquest and provided the means for Sargeras to almost enter the world.  Illidan claims he's completely in control of his power and is acting for the good of all, but he's a hard man to trust. Illidan as a captain in the Moon Guard was infamous for his callous disregard of the lives under his command. Even if he won almost every battle, Illidan being in command always meant horrific losses for the rank and file, and Illidan was decidedly unsympathetic to the suffering and losses of the common soldiers.  And he's not about to start showing any humility or contrition now.  Nevertheless, Illidan had won some favors from the courts of the Highborne before the Sundering.  Whatever the current state of other surviving Highborne.  Now he's calling those favors due.  The naga, recall, are the survivors and descendants of Queen Azshara's court who were sunk with the city of Zin-Azshari to the bottom of the sea during the Sundering.  Now they serve the Old God, N'Zoth. The Lord of the Deep.  Until now, the naga have limited their actions on the surface to opportunistic raids against the shore, mainly seeking to plunder the ruins of their fallen empire. The main efforts of the naga empire have been focused on expanding and conquering Azeroth's seas.  We have never learned precisely what bargains Illidan struck, or what the naga themselves particularly hoped to achieve here beyond immediate tactical goals.  This is probably not going to reassure the rest of night elf society.  But what does a Highborne care for the lives of peasants?  If anything, they should be grateful to lay down their lives for the benefit of the protagonist of the universe.
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Oct 14, 2023 15:15
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