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https://twitter.com/abc/status/1713300164390035556?s=46
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Oct 14, 2023 22:51
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It's reaaally fuckin dubious to me that frontline troops in a surprise attack are carrying around "top secret" maps and orders, especially in an attack where they know there's a high likelihood of them getting killed or captured behind enemy lines.
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Oct 14, 2023 22:57
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Radical 90s Wizard posted:It's reaaally fuckin dubious to me that frontline troops in a surprise attack are carrying around "top secret" maps and orders, especially in an attack where they know there's a high likelihood of them getting killed or captured behind enemy lines. Maps and orders that are un-rumpled and so clean you'd swear they came fresh off the printer.
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Oct 14, 2023 22:59
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Radical 90s Wizard posted:It's reaaally fuckin dubious to me that frontline troops in a surprise attack are carrying around "top secret" maps and orders, especially in an attack where they know there's a high likelihood of them getting killed or captured behind enemy lines. They're watermarked and have a little red top secret at the top of each page.
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Oct 14, 2023 23:01
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It may be productive to compare the docs from the NBC report against the map we get a screenshot of from the headcam vid posted in the NYT article earlier.
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Oct 14, 2023 23:04
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Like they spent years planning and pulled off an attack so surprising that it caught the IDF literally sleeping, and did it with enough secrecy that their allies didnt know about it until it was happening. But then they were like "Guys don't forget your list of atrocities when you go"
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Oct 14, 2023 23:12
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Radical 90s Wizard posted:It's reaaally fuckin dubious to me that frontline troops in a surprise attack are carrying around "top secret" maps and orders, especially in an attack where they know there's a high likelihood of them getting killed or captured behind enemy lines. I'd assume these were on commanders and in vehicles, etc. Isn't it routine to have operations manuals in these situations? The grunts don't carry these around, the dude in the Hilux with the radio has these. I share the skepticism about the watermarks and all, but carrying around plans wouldn't be that's weird, imo. Radical 90s Wizard posted:Like they spent years planning and pulled off an attack so surprising that it caught the IDF literally sleeping, and did it with enough secrecy that their allies didnt know about it until it was happening. But then they were like "Guys don't forget your list of atrocities when you go" That could be proper compartmentalization though. No one low enough knew details until short notice, then "follow these plans."
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Oct 14, 2023 23:14
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The NBC report says they were found in the hands of fighters, which sounds like grunts. Perhaps it's better not to just assume something is true and instead expect the IDF to provide corroborating evidence of their claims.
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Oct 14, 2023 23:16
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Why does this matter? Whether they had a map or not?
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Oct 14, 2023 23:19
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Zzulu posted:Why does this matter? Whether they had a map or not? That's a good question! Certainly the IDF seems to think it's matters seeing as they gave this to NBC with the understanding it would be talked about in US national media. The NBC headline includes the claim that "Hamas documents show that terrorists intentionally targeted elementary schools and a youth center", which at least for the schools seems like an odd thing to claim - or at least focus on - given that the attack happened around 6 AM on a Saturday during a national holiday.
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Oct 14, 2023 23:26
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Zzulu posted:Why does this matter? Whether they had a map or not? By alleging that Hamas fighters had a “do your war crimes here”, it makes for a better case for the IDF to do whatever they want. Discendo Vox posted a good link which shows what these maps look like in reality, the NBC posted ones probably aren’t real.
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Oct 14, 2023 23:27
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ummel posted:I'd assume these were on commanders and in vehicles, etc. Isn't it routine to have operations manuals in these situations? The grunts don't carry these around, the dude in the Hilux with the radio has these. Lol I can tell you it is not routine, no normal soldiers should ever have anything labelled Top Secret. I mean, I dont know Hamas, maybe the just dont give a poo poo, but it's like soldier 101 to not do stuff like this.
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Oct 14, 2023 23:28
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 23:29
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khwarezm posted:Usually I'd broadly agree but I was genuinely shocked and sickened by the scale of Hamas's attack in a way that I feel I haven't seen in, say for example, Ukraine's attacks on Russian civilian targets. Like 1000 Israeli civilians dead, would I be right in saying that that's the highest death toll for the Israeli side in a single day since the state was established? Gumball Gumption posted:Is there a single group who did not have some factions target civilians when they were targeted by civilians of their oppressors? Every group will have members across the political spectrum with matching solutions and will try to enact them. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Oct 14, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 23:41
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mannerup posted:Going to do some diplomatic summaries of what's going on. Reporting from Axios shows the boiling diplomatic tension over this between Iran and Israel after a week where further escalation is untenable for Iran. When Iran talks about getting involve, do they just mean opening up another front with Hezbollah in Lebanon? Also, for the mods, what counts as "Willoposting"?
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Oct 14, 2023 23:44
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How did somebody get away with calling Norman Finkelstein a Holocaust denier
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Oct 14, 2023 23:51
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Zzulu posted:Why does this matter? Whether they had a map or not? If someone is falsifying documents and seeding them to the Southern Responders Telegram channel, that's a problem. If news cos are picking up that information and disseminating it without any apparent effort to have a native Arabic speaker check them, that's a problem. Firstly, because even if the forgeries are entirely incidental, it allows distrust over any other claim made on channels disseminating this stuff. Secondly, because if someone is producing first-glance well-made (but on deeper inspection terrible) forgeries like this in the wake of a terrorist attack, you have to ask "who?" and "why?". And secondly because the timing and impact have effects while Israel is busy ethnically cleansing a patch of land. Regarding the evidence it's a forgery. Start with the numbers. Usually modern Arabic symbols are used in any kind of documentation. CF eg this from jewishpress.com:  The numbers that are there are a really odd font. In order to do something like that you'd have to have a different font setup for your bullets vs your text. That's incredibly awkward to do throughout a document but more likely when you're pasting something in. From, say, Google Translate. Speaking of, the document is written in a way that people would neither write nor speak in Arabic. It has the obvious feel of being translated from another language. There's more stuff there. Another poster alluded to the maps mentioned in the report not being the same etc. But it looks like a fairly clumsy forgery, released to the Southern Responders Telegram channel with, by the way, a preceding message saying (and I'm paraphrasing) 'We've got something big coming soon'. So who? Why? My own suspicions? Could be that the Israeli government realises it's been losing the information battle so they've been taking measures (Minister of Information has quit, Mark Regev's been resurrected and is doing the rounds). But this is so clumsy I can't believe it would have been dashed off like that by the govt. I suspect some extremist elements in the IDF, like David Ben Zion, are taking advantage of the situation to try to pump out further smoking guns, as though they're needed. BrutalistMcDonalds posted:Warfare today seems like it has changed in such a way that civilians are much more involved as targets, victims and perpetrators of violence. In 1982, under the territory controlled by Israel in Lebanon and with the approval of Ariel Sharon, Phalangist proxies moved into the Sabra and Shatila district and camp and executed some 800-3000+ civilians. Many women and children. I'm talking about lined up against the walls and murdered. The viral post on Twitter suggesting that a pregnant woman had had her belly cut open and baby removed was apparently just someone posting from descriptions of the massacre. There's some harrowing footage you can find in the Al-Jaz documentary from the early 2000s called The Lebanon War (Harb Lubnan), epsiode 10/11 I think - 'The Massacre'. Warfare has not changed as much as you think, to humanity's eternal shame. And when people claim that this is the bloodiest single day for Israelis, it's worth bearing in mind what happened in 1982 and who was elected by a landslide in Israel 20 years later. Irony Be My Shield posted:Ultimately it's beneficial to Israel if the debate stays on the particulars of the Hamas attack (as opposed to the ongoing slaughter in Gaza), and generating confusion around shocking but not particularly relevant details is a good way to do that. Yes, I'd agree with this though as above it just seems so clumsy it's almost taking the piss if it's produced by the IDF or Israeli Govt. They have people who can speak and write Arabic fluently! Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 23:54
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Ultimately it's beneficial to Israel if the debate stays on the particulars of the Hamas attack (as opposed to the ongoing slaughter in Gaza), and generating confusion around shocking but not particularly relevant details is a good way to do that.
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Oct 14, 2023 23:56
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:There's something about it that's unusually shocking. I don't know why, but if rockets had hit the rave, that would be bad, even if the same number of people had been killed (which would be unlikely), but it would not be as horrifying as militants walking up to people and shooting them in the face. Of all the types of death in warfare we're not used to actually seeing what happens when hundreds of infantry sweep through a large civilian crowd without giving quarter. It doesn't fit our expected norms of drones hitting weddings, or car bombs in marketplaces. There's no back and forth or heroics. No contest of arms. It is viscerally hitting the same instincts that characters like Jason Voorhees play on in horror films. Violence in a relatable context that we don't associate with violence, and with no way to escape or defend, trapped in the open. It's a literal nightmare scenario. This sort of reaction is also why Israel has been very careful about keeping journalists away from their ground incursions into Gaza in the past.
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Oct 14, 2023 23:59
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Willo567 posted:When Iran talks about getting involve, do they just mean opening up another front with Hezbollah in Lebanon?
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Oct 15, 2023 00:10
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Zzulu posted:Why does this matter? Whether they had a map or not? When specific allegations (40 beheaded babies, terror maps etc) are used as part of a broader narrative to create and shore up international support for a military action, it seems important to ensure that they are based in fact. The Niger-Iraq iranium documents and the Nayirah testimony (both on wikipedia) are two good examples of evidence used to justify starting or entering wars, with massive consequences for civilians, (Gulf War and Iraq War) which turned out to be completely false.
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Oct 15, 2023 00:10
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Radical 90s Wizard posted:It's reaaally fuckin dubious to me that frontline troops in a surprise attack are carrying around "top secret" maps and orders, especially in an attack where they know there's a high likelihood of them getting killed or captured behind enemy lines. when the US special forces operation to rescue embassy hostages failed in Iran the Iranians captured a whole bunch of top secret docs from the wreckage of US helicopters including detailed plans of what they were trying to do so it's not unprecdented
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Oct 15, 2023 00:14
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Zzulu posted:Why does this matter? Whether they had a map or not? Because the news should not be manufacturing consent for an ethnic cleansing.
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Oct 15, 2023 00:26
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I have a question about the Arabic used in the alleged plans. Wouldn't Palestinian Arabic dialects be fairly different from what google offers in translations? Was there at least an attempt at Palestinian Arabic or does it really look like machine translation into Standard Arabic?
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Oct 15, 2023 00:28
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Those documents also may have been disseminated in order to further the ridiculous claims of bibi's supporters that Hamas was assisted by traitors in the Israeli government
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Oct 15, 2023 00:30
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Paladinus posted:I have a question about the Arabic used in the alleged plans. Wouldn't Palestinian Arabic dialects be fairly different from what google offers in translations? BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 00:31
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Typo posted:when the US special forces operation to rescue embassy hostages failed in Iran the Iranians captured a whole bunch of top secret docs from the wreckage of US helicopters including detailed plans of what they were trying to do so it's not unprecdented I do concede your point. But those plans probably called the helicopters "helicopters" and not "make fly boxes", for example.
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Oct 15, 2023 00:39
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How are photos and video coming out of Gaza? I'd think Israel would have destroyed or disabled the cell towers as a first step, if they were even properly functioning before that. There must be all sorts of jamming going on, especially with the threat of drones vs soldiers on cramped streets.
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Oct 15, 2023 00:44
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Willo567 posted:When Iran talks about getting involve, do they just mean opening up another front with Hezbollah in Lebanon? Also, for the mods, what counts as "Willoposting"? Mostly just lurking here, but will happily eat this probe. loving everything you post is "Hey guys, this thing looks really bad, could this cause X nation to do Y thing that makes Z world power fire nukes at my balls?" Either you reference nukes directly or you kind of tiptoe and tease around it. You keep trying to steer the conversation to titillatingly apocalyptic things so you can keep edging for days on the brink of doomgooning. You got threadbanned from 2 separate ukraine threads for this poo poo. Get a loving therapist or something Yes there is an ignore button but there isn't one to ignore idiots that respond to you seriously
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Oct 15, 2023 00:44
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Count Roland posted:How are photos and video coming out of Gaza? Apparently there is 1 ISP still functional. Another story I saw said that people were scrambling to get Egyptian SIM cards ahead of Israel cutting off the internet, so I assume that's a thing. https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/13/middleeast/gaza-internet-outage-map-visuals-dg/index.html
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Oct 15, 2023 00:51
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So Gaza is blockaded these past 16 years and now under siege in which not even water is allowed in, and yet the internet is still running? How is that possible?
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Oct 15, 2023 00:56
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The supposed captured plans (the version of them shared by NBC, at least) are especially dubious because they apparently involved raiding a primary school to capture child hostages before dawn on Saturday morning. I don't need to explain why that sounds completely moronic, do I? https://x.com/nbcnews/status/1712945098164518999?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 00:58
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Count Roland posted:How are photos and video coming out of Gaza? Grim. This "content producer for unrwausa" has been posting updates on his feed and story. He's been documenting the evacuation in his story today. Including the civilians getting hit.  for death, children in distress or dead, etc. https://instagram.com/motaz_azaiza ummel fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 01:00
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Presumably you can access Israeli or Egyptian networks if you're near the border of Gaza? e: yeah the article posted above says you can at least in some places. quote:Palestinian internet providers can only offer 2G network services, which is much more sluggish than 3G and also more vulnerable to security attacks due to weak encryption. A previous UN report indicated some Gaza residents living near the Israeli border could access 3G and 4G networks from Israeli operators, although the current situation is unclear. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 01:01
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Yeah, it's worth remembering that the Gaza Strip is only 25 by 10 miles in its entirety. While that's far enough for reception to get spotty in places, you probably can get *some* sort of signal most places in the strip.
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Oct 15, 2023 01:08
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Darth Walrus posted:The supposed captured plans (the version of them shared by NBC, at least) are especially dubious because they apparently involved raiding a primary school to capture child hostages before dawn on Saturday morning. I don't need to explain why that sounds completely moronic, do I? You'll need to explain it to me. All I know is Friday is a day of prayer in the arabic/muslim worlds and is usually part of their weekend. Saturday can vary, and in any case I have no idea what the school schedules are like, especially when similar things like sunday school or daycare are counted.
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Oct 15, 2023 01:12
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Count Roland posted:You'll need to explain it to me. All I know is Friday is a day of prayer in the arabic/muslim worlds and is usually part of their weekend. Saturday can vary, and in any case I have no idea what the school schedules are like, especially when similar things like sunday school or daycare are counted. In the Jewish world, Saturday (Shabbos) is a day of rest. No Israeli school is meeting that day. EDIT: And the day of the attacks was also a major religious holiday, which is part of why the army was less prepared and Israelis are so pissed. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 01:14
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Let alone at that time in the morning.
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Oct 15, 2023 01:17
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I have sudden flashbacks to Russians finding "Ukraine Nazi assassins hidden den" with Sims 3 copies instead of SIM cards.
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Oct 15, 2023 01:18
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Setting the issues with the language aside, the documents were allegedly dated October 2022, so the raid didn't have to be on a Saturday. But it begs the question as to why they didn't adjust the plans when they already knew the date.
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Oct 15, 2023 01:19
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