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hey i’m puttering on the couch thank you very much
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Oct 16, 2023 20:09
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pseudorandom name posted:I don't, roff is an entirely obsolete format that is kept limping along purely because of its uses in man pages, nobody writes it directly, it is always generated from some better tool, and nobody prints anything anymore, especially not roff. They should acknowledge and adapt to their only customer use case, but they're a bunch of old men puttering around in their home offices, completely detached from reality. I've written a few manpages, and I did them in roff. I don't like the language syntax, but it worked fine for me 
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Oct 16, 2023 20:10
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Agile Vector posted:i… isn't that yospos? post hole digger posted:its definitely my goofy rear end
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Oct 16, 2023 20:10
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roff is kind of like markdown for boomers but idk i like it. you're not going to do fancy math typesetting of the kind that latex can do but for basic documentation it gets the job done, if you somehow get thrown into a time warp back to the 1980s hell grrm still uses wordstar for dos and i can respect that
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Oct 16, 2023 20:13
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Antigravitas posted:Hold on. I still have a secret burning desire to have a run-of-the-mill IA-64 and a knights landing compute accelerator, knowing that I’ll probably never get anything useful out of either of them. Well, at least the former runs under Linux but I doubt that the latter will ever get any modern OpenCL support. There’s something interesting about these old dead end high computing platforms that I find interesting. And yes, I still have a PS3 running Linux. I think if GPGPU didn’t take off as much as it did, Cell would have definitely carved some sort of niche, but I think the modern big.little architectures are basically their modern successors (albeit 15 or so years later)
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Oct 16, 2023 20:15
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Sapozhnik posted:
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Oct 16, 2023 20:15
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pseudorandom name posted:I don't, roff is an entirely obsolete format that is kept limping along purely because of its uses in man pages, nobody writes it directly, it is always generated from some better tool, and nobody prints anything anymore, especially not roff. They should acknowledge and adapt to their only customer use case, but they're a bunch of old men puttering around in their home offices, completely detached from reality. some level of truth to this long as you embrace the logical endpoint of the terminal being a bit of a relic of the past that'll keep getting less relevant and used for fewer tasks. which is probably the case.
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Oct 16, 2023 20:35
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that doesn't seem likely, both Microsoft and Apple's experiment in pure GUIs have reversed course
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Oct 16, 2023 20:42
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the time people overall spend interacting with something, or reading something, in a terminal is probably at a 30 year low though. as a place to copy-paste from stack overflow it lives on, but that's probably an overall retreat.
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Oct 16, 2023 20:45
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sb hermit posted:I still have a secret burning desire to have a run-of-the-mill IA-64 and a knights landing compute accelerator, knowing that I’ll probably never get anything useful out of either of them. Well, at least the former runs under Linux but I doubt that the latter will ever get any modern OpenCL support. if you ever obtain an ia-64 make sure to set up dimensional incursion containment grids before plugging it in, it's the computing architecture of the many-angled ones they didn't bother hiding it either, it's right there in the name. IÄ! IÄ!
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Oct 16, 2023 22:22
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I didn't know Charlie Stross had a SA account, but I guess it should've been obvious from the username
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Oct 16, 2023 22:33
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pseudorandom name posted:I didn't know Charlie Stross had a SA account, but I guess it should've been obvious from the username for the record i'm not charlie stross, i was just reading some laundry files book when i registered LOL
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Oct 16, 2023 22:53
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Linux: the no laundry or shower files
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Oct 16, 2023 22:54
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BobHoward posted:for the record i'm not charlie stross, i was just reading some laundry files book when i registered LOL oh that's good because charlie stross won't stop retooting the most liberal of brainworms on mastodon
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Oct 16, 2023 22:57
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:the time people overall spend interacting with something, or reading something, in a terminal is probably at a 30 year low though. I guess theres no way of knowing but my gut says "No way". Certainly its lower than 30-40 years ago, proportionally to the total number of users, but with the advent of cloud computing, iot, etc thats all generally run within the confines of a terminal. Terminal usage probably was lowest in the 2000s and early 2010s, but its definitely spiked since then. I mean there's now a consumer linux based console you can trivially access the terminal on and is required for many of its use cases (steam deck)
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Oct 16, 2023 23:10
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controversial take: any open powershell window on a desktop makes the entire desktop a terminal
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Oct 17, 2023 00:11
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Mr. Crow posted:I guess theres no way of knowing but my gut says "No way". Certainly its lower than 30-40 years ago, proportionally to the total number of users, but with the advent of cloud computing, iot, etc thats all generally run within the confines of a terminal. Terminal usage probably was lowest in the 2000s and early 2010s, but its definitely spiked since then. sure ok there is more # but certainly less %
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Oct 17, 2023 01:29
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i genuinely didn't know that roff was still used, i thought everyone had at least started using mdoc(7)
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Oct 17, 2023 01:53
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ziasquinn posted:sure ok there is more # but certainly less % thats what i said yes
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Oct 17, 2023 01:58
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sb hermit posted:I still have a secret burning desire to have a run-of-the-mill IA-64 and a knights landing compute accelerator, knowing that I’ll probably never get anything useful out of either of them. Well, at least the former runs under Linux but I doubt that the latter will ever get any modern OpenCL support. get an HP rx2660, install OpenVMS 8.4 on it, install a Knights Landing card in it, write a driver for that, and then port Helios from Transputer to Knights Landing and use VMS as a front-end
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Oct 17, 2023 05:02
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Mr. Crow posted:thats what i said yes I just was thinking thats how I read the original post , gotta be at an all time low percentage wise
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Oct 17, 2023 06:41
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:i genuinely didn't know that roff was still used, i thought everyone had at least started using mdoc(7) mdoc is a troff macro set
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Oct 17, 2023 08:32
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pseudorandom name posted:a bunch of old men puttering around this is the linux thread, it’s spelled poettering here
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Oct 17, 2023 08:55
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Just like how a lot of things are stacked on top of TeX, a lot of things are built on troff. But the actual tool used is not really significant. Any assumption troff or any other typesetting program makes about whether a "-" in source text means "‒", "—", "–", "‐", or perhaps "−", is going to be wrong. Someone needs to go through the sources of all manpages and give all those dashes their proper semantic meaning. The only thing troff can do is to decide which kind of wrong is most acceptable. I've had those discussions with people who use Word as well. Hyphens are serious business.
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Oct 17, 2023 10:51
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:mdoc is a troff macro set
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Oct 17, 2023 11:51
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Why are ASCII dashes not good enough for man pages read in a terminal? This is a bit like the joke about a man with two clocks always being uncertain what time it is.
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Oct 17, 2023 11:53
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Athas posted:Why are ASCII dashes not good enough for man pages read in a terminal? This is a bit like the joke about a man with two clocks always being uncertain what time it is. i think the point is to preserve man as a good general documentation tool, formatting stuff for web and print (and for the mythical terminals with more typesetting capabilities than the bare default). which is trying to preserve the terminal ecosystem as something relevant. not succeeding, as noted i don't think anyone not indoctrinated way back really reads documentation at all in the terminal anymore, but i get wanting to hang on
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Oct 17, 2023 12:00
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I often read pages like zfsprops(7), but I usually do so using the Plasma manpage viewer. The dash/hyphen distinction is relevant anywhere but the terminal, where you could just fold every type of dash to just HYPHEN. Manpages are really useful, and `man rsync` is still the fastest way to get the manual for the version of rsync you have installed.
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Oct 17, 2023 12:10
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god. i really am a relic of a bygone time. i stare at % all day on the terminal sessions i open first thing in the morning. i dont give a rats rear end about the differences between the different renderings of “-“ the only reason i picked up python was so i could write ansible modules to replace stuff i did with bash 20 years ago so the new kids could use it.
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Oct 17, 2023 12:42
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Antigravitas posted:I often read pages like zfsprops(7), but I usually do so using the Plasma manpage viewer. The dash/hyphen distinction is relevant anywhere but the terminal, where you could just fold every type of dash to just HYPHEN. more like `man istink`
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Oct 17, 2023 14:00
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:i think the point is to preserve man as a good general documentation tool, formatting stuff for web and print (and for the mythical terminals with more typesetting capabilities than the bare default). For the web, for the stuff man is supposed to be used for, always using ASCII hyphens is also easily good enough. Printing manpages is a fun affectation, but an affectation, and I really do not think it is worth sacrificing anything for that use case. And I am someone who actually wrote a manpage from scratch, in troff (although with mdoc), a few weeks ago, so I probably like manpages more than most.
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Oct 17, 2023 14:27
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Athas posted:For the web, for the stuff man is supposed to be used for, always using ASCII hyphens is also easily good enough. Printing manpages is a fun affectation, but an affectation, and I really do not think it is worth sacrificing anything for that use case. And I am someone who actually wrote a manpage from scratch, in troff (although with mdoc), a few weeks ago, so I probably like manpages more than most. nah, gently caress that, typeset correctly where it is possible, and ideally make it possible to typeset correctly where it is currently not. e: not like this is stuff that matters-matters. but, idk, as far as dumb linux things that don't matter i like when hci'ish efforts are expended. Cybernetic Vermin fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Oct 17, 2023 |
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Oct 17, 2023 14:28
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hey - pretend im dumb: why do we need more than one “-“ ?
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Oct 17, 2023 16:29
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fresh_cheese posted:hey - pretend im dumb: why do we need more than one “-“ ? making text look nice is nice, but if you're a historical linux fan that might indeed be controversial
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Oct 17, 2023 16:34
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lol remember nerds defending freetype autohinting as being "fine"? 
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Oct 17, 2023 16:35
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:lol remember nerds defending freetype autohinting as being "fine"? linux/android font rendering has always been super hosed up
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Oct 17, 2023 16:36
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I'm a sick gently caress who doesn't care about font rendering. Stock Adwaita fonts with 125% scaling on Gnome. Don't care, I have better things to do.
FlapYoJacks fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Oct 17, 2023 |
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Oct 17, 2023 16:46
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e: nah, let's not get into that perfect moment for nuancing on "liking systemd" though, not giving a poo poo about the human experience while being emotionally invested in the monolithic bunch of c that starts and stops services is just weird to me. Cybernetic Vermin fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Oct 17, 2023 |
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Oct 17, 2023 16:50
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fresh_cheese posted:hey - pretend im dumb: why do we need more than one “-“ ? You probably don't want certain hyphenated words to be split by a line break, so you use a non‑breaking hyphen. There is a semantic difference between a minus sign and a hyphen. You may want to delineate between an em dash — one you use for making asides — and hyphens you use for combining words. You may want to use an em dash in list points. Theres a legion of uses for typographical elements with different meaning. You probably don't want to preserve hyphens of hyphenation used in justified text when you copy paste it, but you do want to preserve the hyphens of words that always appear hyphenated. Typography is complex and invisible until you encounter bad typography.
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Oct 17, 2023 16:53
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I think some people have confused this thread with their OnlyHyphens
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Oct 17, 2023 16:55
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