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Cythereal posted:
This always struck me as odd, because like... this "ability" of Illidan's is never brought up again. They see something hosed up and immediately assume it's his fault, despite the fact that such a thing has never been mentioned before and will never be mentioned again (at least in WC3, I don't know if that's the case in WoW). quote:And yet the general consensus of the wider Warcraft story is that Maiev's determination to find Illidan and put him back in chains is her being irrational and obsessive. Honestly, I can see why. From my perspective, Maiev's beef should be with Tyrande, not Illidan - she's the one who slaughtered the Watchers (for doing the job that she assigned them, no less). Illidan did some stupid poo poo, but he also ultimately wound up on the right side of things twice. Hell, going by the game's narrative, he called upon the aid of the Naga because he was fleeing the Watchers trying to imprison him again - there's a nonzero chance he wouldn't have called upon the Naga's aid like this if he didn't feel so threatened by being hunted down. I'm going to bring this up again in the future after some other things happen.
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Oct 17, 2023 23:01
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FrenchBen posted:That's still not a thing even in DF? They've set up that particular possibility since Legion, more than half a decade ago for Elune's sake. Didn't expect to get Eredar skin tones before that but here we are. I was pleased to see that they also removed racial restrictions for warlocks, because having Eredar customizations available without that option would be incredibly silly. Lightforged having access to it is incredibly silly in the opposite direction, however.
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Oct 17, 2023 23:04
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Asehujiko posted:Such a stark contrast to Starcraft 2 where Zeratul and Protoss Stalkers have the same ability but it never gets used for anything but teleporting over holes in terrain as pseudo checkpoints in fixed force missions.
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Oct 17, 2023 23:05
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Bloody Pom posted:I was pleased to see that they also removed racial restrictions for warlocks, because having Eredar customizations available without that option would be incredibly silly. They did add a whole questline introducing the new warlock races, with a LF Draenei as the main character of it. He makes it clear that he's not turning his back on the Light, he simply believes he can use the power of fel magic along side it to help protect his people.
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Oct 17, 2023 23:20
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Kith posted:Honestly, I can see why. From my perspective, Maiev's beef should be with Tyrande, not Illidan - she's the one who slaughtered the Watchers (for doing the job that she assigned them, no less). Illidan did some stupid poo poo, but he also ultimately wound up on the right side of things twice. Hell, going by the game's narrative, he called upon the aid of the Naga because he was fleeing the Watchers trying to imprison him again - there's a nonzero chance he wouldn't have called upon the Naga's aid like this if he didn't feel so threatened by being hunted down. Oh, don't get us wrong. Maiev hates Tyrande... but Illidan is her mission. Her job is to keep him imprisoned, and by the gods, she will imprison him at all costs.
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Oct 17, 2023 23:20
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BlazetheInferno posted:Oh, don't get us wrong. Maiev hates Tyrande... but Illidan is her mission. Her job is to keep him imprisoned, and by the gods, she will imprison him at all costs. Thinking of the earlier discussion about writing characters that are thousands of years old - I'll say this for the night elves, they're extremely slow to do anything other than exactly what they spent the last ten thousand years doing.
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Oct 17, 2023 23:22
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To my knowledge this is the first appearance of a blink skill in an RTS (keep in mind this campaign obviously came out before DOTA and League) and they obviously had a lot of fun hiding goodies everywhere.
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Oct 17, 2023 23:23
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Feldegast42 posted:To my knowledge this is the first appearance of a blink skill in an RTS (keep in mind this campaign obviously came out before DOTA and League) and they obviously had a lot of fun hiding goodies everywhere. Homeworld skirmish and MP had tactical scale jumps, if not in campaign. Obviously the nature of the maps made it hard to place teleportation only goodies, even if it had teleportation.
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Oct 17, 2023 23:51
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anilEhilated posted:Stalker blink is really important in multiplayer and involves predicting enemy movement; I'd say that is a pretty good use. Feldegast42 posted:To my knowledge this is the first appearance of a blink skill in an RTS (keep in mind this campaign obviously came out before DOTA and League) and they obviously had a lot of fun hiding goodies everywhere.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:00
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Feldegast42 posted:To my knowledge this is the first appearance of a blink skill in an RTS (keep in mind this campaign obviously came out before DOTA and League) and they obviously had a lot of fun hiding goodies everywhere. The bolded part is actually technically not true. While it didn't evolve into Dota Allstars and the various versions most people are aware of until after, the very first version of Defense of the Ancients actually pre-dates Frozen Throne. I doubt there was also such Blink move involved, but I do remember one detail about this probably-lost-to-time original Dota. There was a hero, I think called a Firelord? He looked like a color-tinted Orc Shaman, and the only other thing I remember about him was his Ultimate ability. It was called Meteor, and due to the limits of the Editor, was simply the Dreadlord's "Inferno" ultimate... except the damage from the crash landing was increased to 400, and the Infernal itself was given a duration of 0 seconds so it died immediately. I played this hero once upon a time, and kept killing the same player with it over and over (he was playing a hero that looked like a Hydralisk; possibly an early Venomancer), and he started calling me the "Meanie Rock Dropper". I enjoy this memory greatly. 
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Oct 18, 2023 01:19
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Cythereal posted:Fun fact, according to Dragonflight, one of the Infinite Dragonflight's plots was to cockblock Malfurion prior to the War of the Ancients, leading Tyrande to get together with Illidan. This lead to unspecified doom for Azeroth and the Bronze Dragonflight hires adventurers to go back in time and ensure that Tyrande and Malfurion get together on schedule. That's a concept of a time travel mission that's actually fun. It's goofy and silly, but still gives you actual reason to do it in the narrative.
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Oct 18, 2023 01:19
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BlazetheInferno posted:The bolded part is actually technically not true. While it didn't evolve into Dota Allstars and the various versions most people are aware of until after, the very first version of Defense of the Ancients actually pre-dates Frozen Throne. the thing that DoTA evolved from was called Aeon of Strife. i remember it because there were a few comically badly put together versions where Paladin Divine Shield+Death and Decay ult were an option for heroes. this meant that if you made it to level six you could at any moment get bored and say "i win the game now" by setting off a minute-long Divine Shield and then Death and Decaying the enemy HQ
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Oct 18, 2023 01:56
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Keldulas posted:That's a concept of a time travel mission that's actually fun. It's goofy and silly, but still gives you actual reason to do it in the narrative. Another funny thing about that quest is that the dragon that helps you during it felt really bad about the whole thing because she thought Illidan and Tyrande were cute together.
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Oct 18, 2023 02:02
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Asehujiko posted:Such a stark contrast to Starcraft 2 where Zeratul and Protoss Stalkers have the same ability but it never gets used for anything but teleporting over holes in terrain as pseudo checkpoints in fixed force missions. Not just checkpoints, it can help you bypass places you were supposed to run into trouble or allow you to reach buildings, units, etc. that the map didn't intend you to. Sure, no real goodies like we have here, but seeing as only WC3 has items and inventories, it doesn't make a lot of sense in SC2
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Oct 18, 2023 02:47
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BlazetheInferno posted:Oh, don't get us wrong. Maiev hates Tyrande... but Illidan is her mission. Her job is to keep him imprisoned, and by the gods, she will imprison him at all costs. Which is why I can absolutely see why people would think that Maiev needs some loving chill: that single-minded determination never leads to anything good for her or those around her.
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Oct 18, 2023 02:50
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Kith posted:Which is why I can absolutely see why people would think that Maiev needs some loving chill: that single-minded determination never leads to anything good for her or those around her. This is Warcraft. Stop expecting things to make sense.
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Oct 18, 2023 02:52
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Kith posted:This always struck me as odd, because like... this "ability" of Illidan's is never brought up again. They see something hosed up and immediately assume it's his fault, despite the fact that such a thing has never been mentioned before and will never be mentioned again (at least in WC3, I don't know if that's the case in WoW). Furbolg get corrupted by like literally ANYTHING, its quite possible that Illidan passing by did drive it mad... but so could have like... a single imp farting on it.
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Oct 18, 2023 02:53
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AtomikKrab posted:Furbolg get corrupted by like literally ANYTHING, its quite possible that Illidan passing by did drive it mad... but so could have like... a single imp farting on it. Wildkin aren't furbolgs. My point is that there's plenty of other poo poo that could've been responsible - Legion remnants, Satyrs (that even appear in this mission!), or even just getting too close to some already hosed up furbolgs - and that immediately assuming that it was Illidan isn't the best reasoning. But, then again: Cythereal posted:This is Warcraft. Stop expecting things to make sense. Thinking too hard about this is a fool's task.
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Oct 18, 2023 04:28
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Wihle the game's plot will assuredly change, as of this point, it seems pretty clear cut that Illidan is up to some severe no good. We had the cinematic of him announcing he was going to do some heinous poo poo, and now we come across his allies murdering their way across a night elf village while satyrs - clearcut baddies in the previous game - proclaiming him their new lord. To me at least the game is aiming at you siding with Maiev for now.
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Oct 18, 2023 04:49
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AtomikKrab posted:Furbolg get corrupted by like literally ANYTHING, its quite possible that Illidan passing by did drive it mad... but so could have like... a single imp farting on it. Poor Peaches, thought of ants and got corrupted.
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Oct 18, 2023 10:20
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Hehe, Maiev's armor on the victory screen makes it look like she's got a mustache. I'm impressed they picked her instead of a scantily clad elf on the victory screen, or that they gave her a full plate of armor for that matter. Like, the only hero that seems made to be an assassin if I go by what you folks said - an archetype that is virtually universally depicted with light armor in about every other videogame - happens to be the only female character in the elven roster that is fully dressed with proper armor. With boob breastplate, but I don't think armorers in this universe consider such mundane things as "practical use before esthetic". Mindopali fucked around with this message at 12:39 on Oct 18, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 11:05
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Cythereal posted:Fun fact, according to Dragonflight, one of the Infinite Dragonflight's plots was to cockblock Malfurion prior to the War of the Ancients, leading Tyrande to get together with Illidan. This lead to unspecified doom for Azeroth and the Bronze Dragonflight hires adventurers to go back in time and ensure that Tyrande and Malfurion get together on schedule. This just reminds me of the Cataclysm time dungeon with them. I always remember that one for the incredibly awful Malfurion line "Hush, Tyrande!" which seemed to epitomize the way Blizzard treated her character. Pieces of Peace fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Oct 18, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 18:48
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Unfortunately, we're not done with Tyrande's... questionable... choices yet (or, if you prefer, Blizzard's awful writing). Next update has been recorded, and I think it will finally be time to talk about what exactly happened to Suramar, Tyrande's home town. Those whom it concerns, you may start grinding your axes now.
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Oct 18, 2023 19:32
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Okay, I feel like I just had a little fridge logic moment but did we establish how Maiev knows Illidan consumed the Skull of Gul'Dan? Or for that matter how she knows what that even is? She doesn't just know he got a major powerup, she calls out the Skull specifically by name. But if she's been guarding Illidan for ten thousand years then that name should mean nothing to her since Gul'Dan died mere decades ago and the Night Elves (to say nothing of the Wardens stuck in that dungeon) have been entirely cut off from the Eastern Kingdoms, much less Draenor, right? And it doesn't seem like she's on speaking terms with Tyrande or Malfurion at the moment (and definitely not the Alliance or Horde), so I'm not even sure who she could have asked about this.
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Oct 18, 2023 22:20
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Illidan does roll up on whoever that dreadlord is with an army, I don’t think any of that was secret.
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Oct 18, 2023 22:22
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Well, unlike Arthas, Illidan didn't remember to murder all his own soldiers, so I think it's easy enough to say one of those nameless archers or druids heard him muttering to himself or getting yelled at by Malfurion, and decided to tell the guy's jailers. Of all the major characters of Warcraft, Illidan's pretty much the champ for "random night elf is likely to have a very reasonable grudge against him."
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Oct 18, 2023 22:23
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I really like Maiev's aesthetic and thought she was cool as hellCythereal posted:Next update has been recorded, and I think it will finally be time to talk about what exactly happened to Suramar, Tyrande's home town. Oh boy!
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Oct 19, 2023 04:00
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Asehujiko posted:True, but SC2 has a considerably divergence between campaign, coop and multiplayer design so I consider Stalker micro in MP to be somewhat of a separate entity from campaign map layouts. Chrono Legionnaires in RA2 as well
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Oct 19, 2023 04:56
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Anything with Chrono in the name from the RA series counts. Chrono Commando, Chrono Miner, Chrono Ivan. Though RA2 had the added benefit of you having a variable cooldown, depending on how far across the map you moved
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Oct 19, 2023 05:49
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Cythereal posted:Unfortunately, we're not done with Tyrande's... questionable... choices yet (or, if you prefer, Blizzard's awful writing). Why is blizz witing (and comics writing in general) bad? I struggle a lot to grasp what goes into creating the results outlined here? I get the impression that it's like movies, where the thought is placed above what counts and time contraints means that a complete scratch is entirely out of the question. I don't feel that is enough of an explanation, though. Like, even Uwe Boll or someone poo poo get better with time working at the craft they set themself to. Could it be apathy? A disinterest in being good at a job you hate? How the gently caress does that work, then? "Like, I'd love to argue with Hazzicostas or whatever about his idea of the players getting a naga sex slave plot of the new patch, but eh... don't get paid enough to, better to just go along with it?" I have no answers and I must know. DariusJonna fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 13:53
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Aces High posted:Anything with Chrono in the name from the RA series counts. Chrono Commando, Chrono Miner, Chrono Ivan. Though RA2 had the added benefit of you having a variable cooldown, depending on how far across the map you moved Chrono Miners had no variable cooldown, and literally nobody ever used Chrono Ivan
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Oct 19, 2023 13:59
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DariusJonna posted:Why is blizz witing (and comics writing in general) bad? I struggle a lot to grasp what goes into creating the results outlined here? We do not know for certain, and probably never will. Blizzard is notoriously opaque about their internal processes, for all the poo poo I give Steve Danuser I do not (and, probably, can not) ever know how much he's actually been responsible for versus how much is him being a figurehead for a nameless, faceless batch of writers, managers, and executives. Based on his tweets I think I can safely blame him for Nathanos, but beyond that is anyone's guess. If I had to guess, though, the issues with Warcraft's writing come down to a confluence of these factors: 1. Writers who genuinely enjoy writing fascist, sexist, etc drivel. See also the infamous report on the canned first draft of Diablo 4's story where the lead writer for that game made demons gang raping a female NPC a major plot point to the extent of consistently referring to the character in internal communications as 'the raped woman.' 2. Dudebro culture that stifles dissent and attempts to present alternative sides to writing. Read any lawsuit news to learn all you could ever want to know about Blizzard's corporate culture. This is not a culture conducive to multiple points of view in writing, especially those perceived as gay, feminine, etc. 3. Too many cooks in the kitchen with no clear vision handed down and maintained from on top. I strongly suspect that a lot of the inconsistencies in tone and vision for Warcraft stem from bureaucratic infighting as different managers and creators want to make the game (and its successes) 'theirs.' 4. The game's been running too drat long. All the potential of the RTS games has been mined to exhaustion and beyond. They have to keep making up new poo poo, and per point 3, there's no clear and consistent vision for the future of the game. I strongly suspect that Battle for Azeroth and Shadowlands were meant to be the start of a new direction and vision for the game, but the extremely poor critical and financial reception of those games lead to an abrupt swing away from that direction. 5. The people actually making the game are paid too little, and abused too heavily by management (in multiple senses of the term) to care very much about anything beyond trying to make rent and oatmeal this month.
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Oct 19, 2023 14:05
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 +  + 
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Oct 19, 2023 15:24
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Poil posted:
He was the lead writer for Cyberpunk 2077. Parleyed that into a job with Blizzard to be the lead writer of Diablo 4, and that was the result. So violently misogynistic that they scrapped that entire version of the story and cut the character in question completely. She was supposed to be the PC's love interest. Does a nice job of answering the question 'Who would voluntarily take a job at Blizzard nowadays?'
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Oct 19, 2023 15:33
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Cythereal posted:He was the lead writer for Cyberpunk 2077. Parleyed that into a job with Blizzard to be the lead writer of Diablo 4, and that was the result. So violently misogynistic that they scrapped that entire version of the story and cut the character in question completely. She was supposed to be the PC's love interest. Are you referring the Rafal Praszczalek who is credited as writer of Diablo 4, formerly a Business Development Manager at CDPR and showrunner for Edgerunners but not a writer for CDPR. Edit: NVM it's Sebastian Stępień who was a creative developer at CDPR and head writer of CP2077 and who became a creative director for D4. Gridlocked fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 15:49
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I know - and had the displeasure to see for myself - how a deleterious atmosphere can make itself home at the workplace, I can guess how that would negatively impact writing. But this? Cythereal posted:
Holy ****. I can't fathom how such a draft could live for so long that it becomes common knowledge outside the firm. It's jumping from toxic into straight up insanity.
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Oct 19, 2023 16:09
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did they get a lifetime supply of shovels or
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Oct 19, 2023 16:15
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aside from the obvious, massive institutional issues with women, there's another factor we saw at its messiest in the Orc and Night Elf campaigns of WoC the design process for video games is such that the writers get a little bit of input at the very start of production, spend a year or so twiddling their thumbs, and then near the end of the process they get called in to try to stitch together some kind of narrative frankenstein out of the components they've been given to work with. the Orc and Night Elf campaigns' design document called for them to be fighting the Burning Legion, and at some point late in the process the Legion as a faction got cut, leaving the majority of both to be spent on a bunch of hastily cobbled-together filler that went nowhere. writing a cohesive story under these conditions is basically impossible, and involves a lot of rewriting characters on the fly to be who the game needs them to be THIS week. this reached its most obvious mess levels in Cataclysm, where Garrosh Hellscream wildly whipsawed all over the place as a character thanks to different arcs in different locations treating him as an entirely different person. -this- arc needs him to be an actually competent commander, and -this- arc needs him to be a bloodthirsty monster out only for the death of those who annoy him. how do they coexist? gently caress you!
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Oct 19, 2023 16:30
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Mindopali posted:Holy ****. I can't fathom how such a draft could live for so long that it becomes common knowledge outside the firm. It's jumping from toxic into straight up insanity. Gun Jam posted:did they get a lifetime supply of shovels or https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2022/12/08/diablo-iv-release-date-crunch/ The source of the information in question as far as I can find it. Will point out I'm not trying to defend Blizz on their hiring choices, I was just interested in the statement and went to look it up. Gridlocked fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 16:52
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Gridlocked posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2022/12/08/diablo-iv-release-date-crunch/ Checked it up too, found the same article, source being apparently fifteen employees - anonymous, due to interdiction of speaking to the press. That said, considering the high number of articles, the constant stream of developpers leaving for greener pastures who also gladly describe the bad conditions at Blizzard, I'm inclined to believe them. And that part, holy molly. Straight from the article: "The most upsetting management decision for many employees came from Barriga’s pick for creative director, Sebastian Stępień. Stępień, who had been brought on in 2019 to revise the game’s story, was previously creative director on the “The Witcher 3” and head writer on “Cyberpunk 2077.” His decisions were a source of turmoil for the Diablo team, some employees say. While the practice of starting work and then scrapping it if it wasn’t up to par was common at Blizzard, employees said “Diablo IV” underwent a series of particularly disturbing revisions to the script. Stępień did not respond to a request for comment. In 2019, many Blizzard employees were disgusted by a version of the game’s script that repeatedly mentioned the rape of a love interest and referred to this female character as the raped woman as her primary description. Stępień had spent months working on this script, penning it in Polish and having a translator change it to English, according to several employees. Employees pleaded with leadership to revise his version of the story, saying rape had no place in a Blizzard game."
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Oct 19, 2023 19:02
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