|
Hadlock posted:Ok thanks. Can someone explain it to me like I'm 12 why I need a Because a #31 is too small and a #29 is too big duh. I'm guessing its because the hole diameter it was designed around is .1285" so whatever strength rating the box claims will only be gotten with that diameter.
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 09:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 12:39 |
|
|
How thick was your L channel? I'm doing riv nuts too on thin wall (16 ga?) Square tubing and there's so much squish out it's hard to imagine there's not enough surface/contact area
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 09:15
|
|
|
Just Winging It posted:Tiny house/"off-grid" crap that sprung up during covid lockdowns to name one particular genre. There are some real atrocious  stealth camping conversions instructional that would clearly cause poo poo to fly everywhere in any fender bender. Also they 90% of the time have glaring exterior modifications that say HEY SOMEONES LIVING IN HERE. Eg solar panels visible to passers by and Mylar sheeting in the windows.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 12:32
|
|
|
Hadlock posted:Ok thanks. Can someone explain it to me like I'm 12 why I need a Engineer brain speccing things to .0001 because they can. Drill it with the 1/8" bit and wiggle the drill around a little as you do. There you go
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 20:34
|
|
|
Sagebrush posted:Engineer brain speccing things to .0001 because they can. Do this if you don't care about doing it right when it fails. The above advice is equivalent to telling someone with torque-to-yield head bolts to "just put 35ft-lb on 'em all." It's not the way the fastener is designed to work. It takes force to compress and deform a rivet. Deforming the rivet body to fill the correct hole diameter takes a predictable amount of force, and then force beyond that goes into clamping. If your hole is over- or under-sized, (or tapered/conical/oval from a wiggly drill bit) then you have different amounts of force on different parts of the hole, which will lead to different amounts of stress in the hole and joint, almost certainly leading to some piece of it failing. That may be the rivet spinning or the metal cracking or the joint peeling apart with the rivet heads attached and everything getting rattly.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 21:00
|
|
|
Hadlock posted:How thick was your L channel? I'm doing riv nuts too on thin wall (16 ga?) Square tubing and there's so much squish out it's hard to imagine there's not enough surface/contact area The L-channel I used was 1/8" thick, and this was for M5 screws IIRC. I'd look up the specs for that specific rivnut but I think it should be fine. Some of the hold is from the neck squishing & filling out the hole, some is the outer wall of the rivnut getting rammed into the face of your workpiece
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 21:02
|
|
|
Going back to YouTube channels for a minute, anyone watch Stuff Made Here? https://youtube.com/@StuffMadeHere?si=TsKwntku6fB3KMCR I'm a big fan, though it upsets me I will never be as smart as he is. In his latest video he got a waterjet machine. Having run one of these for years at my last job I can't imagine having one of those as a hobbyist. They make everything around them filthy, maintenance is a nightmare, and I don't see a solid removal system on it for removing the garnet from the tank. Dunno, maybe it's better in a non-production environment.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 22:23
|
|
|
babyeatingpsychopath posted:Do this if you don't care about doing it right when it fails. The above advice is equivalent to telling someone with torque-to-yield head bolts to "just put 35ft-lb on 'em all." It's not the way the fastener is designed to work. IIRC you are an aviation maintenance guy and so I think you may have some stricter requirements of rivet performance and reliability than most people. Not saying you're wrong, just that maybe in Hadlock's case (I think he is building some sort of soapbox cyclecar) the extra .003 and perfect hole roundness is maybe not quite as big a deal as it is for your day-to-day.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 22:29
|
|
|
Yeah I am riveting 0.040 aluminum to 1/2" square tubing mild steel for basically a fancy go kart (cyclekart). If my aluminum panels shear off in flight I'm doing something very wrong because the only flight this will be doing is the back wheels when I'm going off a curb or something. Turns out there's at least one other goon building one (and a third has a chassis but the project is on ice) maybe we'll do a thread this winter on it. Some guys do an all sheet metal box/tub for the floor pan but I don't have a bending brake, nor do I have much confidence in my sheet metal skills yet so my floor pan is going to be riveted to a steel structure I already bought the 10 pack of double ended #30 bits though so I'll just use those for now
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 22:55
|
|
|
HolHorsejob posted:The L-channel I used was 1/8" thick, and this was for M5 screws IIRC. According to this you need a 7.6mm drill which, maybe it's common but not where I shop. Its a little smaller than an N size bit. 1/8" steel ought to be in spec for most every rivnut i've seen https://dirxion.mscdirect.com/bigbook/2019?BookCode=bb919flx&PageLabel=2120&Sgt=11&Lang=enu&origin=www.mscdirect.com My 5/16-18 riv nuts use a 11/32 and haven't had any issue with installation. My use case is just bolting two static assemblies together, without any rotational force on it edit: vv yeah I have a 50 or 100 pack of clecos in preperation. Looks like they come in handy for doing final fitting etc Hadlock fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 23:04
|
|
|
Cuz an 1/8" rivet is a fucker to get through an 1/8" hole, especially in thin sheet that has a tendency to tri-lobe when you drill it. Skin pins/clecos are your friend for any and all riveting work fwiw.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 23:20
|
|
|
Sagebrush posted:IIRC you are an aviation maintenance guy and so I think you may have some stricter requirements of rivet performance and reliability than most people. I am specifically calling you out right now because just upthread you were calling out Adam Savage for not "doing it right." Rivet holes are sized that way for a reason. Bolts have a torque spec where it's important. Ignore both to your detriment. If you think you can get away with it because it's not critical, fine, but don't just hand-wave it away with "it's not critical." There's no reason not to do it the right way when that method is available. meowmeowmeowmeow posted:Cuz an 1/8" rivet is a fucker to get through an 1/8" hole, especially in thin sheet that has a tendency to tri-lobe when you drill it. Also this 100%.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2023 01:46
|
|
|
A Proper Uppercut posted:Going back to YouTube channels for a minute, anyone watch Stuff Made Here? https://youtube.com/@StuffMadeHere?si=TsKwntku6fB3KMCR Yea I’m surprised someone would elect for a waterjet over a WEDM in a shop with other machine tools given their tendency to be messy. I fuckin love that channel though.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2023 02:28
|
|
|
babyeatingpsychopath posted:I am specifically calling you out right now because just upthread you were calling out Adam Savage for not "doing it right." 
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2023 03:44
|
|
|
I guess I can't argue with that, except to say that I think there is a difference in wrongness between permanently modifying one part of a machine tool to compensate for the incorrect assembly of another, and undersizing a hole by the thickness of a sheet of paper. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2023 03:54
|
|
|
Its "only" .0035" but if it was .0035" too small instead of too big it'd be a huge problem cuz your rivet would never fit. Tiny changes in hole size make massive differences to fit and function, like .0035 is probably the difference between a light press fit and a free running slip fit for an 1/8" pin. Its not 'engineer brain', they spec a #30 because its the next common size up from an 1/8", provides a tight running fit that will work structurally with a rivet, and because you can't print "use an 1/8" drill but give it a wiggle" in a technical handbook.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2023 04:31
|
|
|
CarForumPoster posted:Yea I’m surprised someone would elect for a waterjet over a WEDM in a shop with other machine tools given their tendency to be messy. I'd lose my poo poo if he got a WEDM as that's what I've mainly run for the past 22 years (and still do) and even after all this time they feel pretty niche. Also I had never really heard of cyclekarting and the "official" website appropriately looks like it hasn't been updated since 1997. A Proper Uppercut fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Oct 12, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2023 12:16
|
|
|
meowmeowmeowmeow posted:Its "only" .0035" but if it was .0035" too small instead of too big it'd be a huge problem cuz your rivet would never fit. Tiny changes in hole size make massive differences to fit and function, like .0035 is probably the difference between a light press fit and a free running slip fit for an 1/8" pin. Its not 'engineer brain', they spec a #30 because its the next common size up from an 1/8", provides a tight running fit that will work structurally with a rivet, and because you can't print "use an 1/8" drill but give it a wiggle" in a technical handbook. Sorry double post but this is bang on. I cut a lot of dowel holes and if that fucker is even .0005" undersize that dowel is not going into a hardened block. Trying to shove something size-to-size into something else is not going to be a fun time. A few thou makes a world of difference with something like this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2023 12:23
|
|
|
if it's that loving critical let them specify the appropriate reamer too, drills are too coarse a tool for the job
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2023 13:39
|
|
|
shame on an IGA posted:if it's that loving critical let them specify the appropriate reamer too, drills are too coarse a tool for the job That's the difference between accuracy and precision. The tolerance is achievable by common drills. For mission critical rivets, reamers and order of operations are specified. I.e. drill, deburr, ream, gauge with gauge pin, verify temperature, install rivet.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2023 15:02
|
|
|
Frankly if you aren't drilling all your rivet holes with a boring bar on a 5 ton vertical turret lathe what are you even doing with your life
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2023 15:18
|
|
|
I'm drilling a hole 40 feet deep today, 4 inch diameter. What size rivets should I use?
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2023 17:30
|
|
|
Ambassadorofsodomy posted:I'm drilling a hole 40 feet deep today, 4 inch diameter. What size rivets should I use? Mmhmm.....make it a biggun'.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2023 18:21
|
|
|
That drill is going to eat up a lot of batteries.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2023 18:41
|
|
|
shame on an IGA posted:if it's that loving critical let them specify the appropriate reamer too, drills are too coarse a tool for the job Reamers are a scam don’t play into the hand of big reamer Drills rule everything around me D.R.E.A.M.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2023 02:16
|
|
|
Kaiser Schnitzel posted:Frankly if you aren't drilling all your rivet holes with a boring bar on a 5 ton vertical turret lathe what are you even doing with your life In machining school I used a 2.5” drill bit on a 17” lablonde lathe after sharpening it myself. Surface finish left some to be desired but the MRR was good!
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2023 02:20
|
|
|
Is SendCutSend usually reasonably competitive on pricing for basic 'piece of plate with some holes in it' stuff or is it worth shopping around? They will do the 9"x9" 1/4" plate with a 1" hole in the middle I need for like $50, and it doesn't seem worth bothering my local waterjet shop about it to save $5 but might be worth it to save $25.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2023 18:51
|
|
|
Kaiser Schnitzel posted:Is SendCutSend usually reasonably competitive on pricing for basic 'piece of plate with some holes in it' stuff or is it worth shopping around? They will do the 9"x9" 1/4" plate with a 1" hole in the middle I need for like $50, and it doesn't seem worth bothering my local waterjet shop about it to save $5 but might be worth it to save $25. I've found them to be competitive, or cheaper, than my local laser shop. Especially post-covid when all of the shops got busy around here.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2023 18:59
|
|
|
Kaiser Schnitzel posted:Is SendCutSend usually reasonably competitive on pricing for basic 'piece of plate with some holes in it' stuff or is it worth shopping around? They will do the 9"x9" 1/4" plate with a 1" hole in the middle I need for like $50, and it doesn't seem worth bothering my local waterjet shop about it to save $5 but might be worth it to save $25. Depends when you need it. A similar order took a week and a half and cost me like $70 after tax and shipping.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2023 19:27
|
|
|
Kaiser Schnitzel posted:Is SendCutSend usually reasonably competitive on pricing for basic 'piece of plate with some holes in it' stuff or is it worth shopping around? They will do the 9"x9" 1/4" plate with a 1" hole in the middle I need for like $50, and it doesn't seem worth bothering my local waterjet shop about it to save $5 but might be worth it to save $25. My experience has been that it’s competitive, but adding bending and finishing starts to really make it less appealing, but also  it’s all coming from one place.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 04:18
|
|
|
 I'm getting a little spa time with the waterjet at work tomorrow. With that, I'm planning on making a set of nearest-neighbor imperial/metric wrenches out of some scavenged 4130 plate. I've got them all designed, got the CAM laid out and I'm wondering - what kind of temper is appropriate for a general-purpose wrench? I'm not experienced at all with hardening steel so be nice to me. My guess would be either a blue temper throughout, or a blue temper on the handle and a lighter temper on the heads so the edges stay crisp.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 07:49
|
|
|
I'm looking for some fittings to adapt some threads, but not having much luck - I have a threaded hole, 1/2 inch. I would like to screw in an m12 bolt. Help me metal goons.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 21:00
|
|
|
The simplest option is a thread adapter like this which has a male 1/2 thread on one end and a female M12 thread on the other (check the pitch, that's for a coarse M12 but there are other options): https://www.mcmaster.com/91646A135 But that'll stick above the surface, which might not work for your application. Since the minor diameter of the 1/2-13 thread (0.4084") is smaller than the major diameter of the M12 bolt (0.472"), it's not possible to have a fitting that will just sit inside the existing hole and allow it to take an M12 instead. The other option is to drill it out and then install a helicoil insert like these. It'll work, but you won't be able to swap back and forth between 1/2 and M12 bolts. There are lots of Youtube videos about how they work that you can dig up. https://www.mcmaster.com/91732A967/ Unfortunately helicoil sets are pretty expensive because of the specialized tap and installation tool. You can improv the install tool if really necessary, but if you call around to local machine shops (or maybe even auto shops?) they likely have them on hand and can knock it out very quickly.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 21:27
|
|
|
Karia posted:The simplest option is a thread adapter like this which has a male 1/2 thread on one end and a female M12 thread on the other (check the pitch, that's for a coarse M12 but there are other options): I kinda just realized I'm a dumbass - I can just weld an m12 nut to the underside of the 1/2 inch hole and thread the bolt through.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 00:13
|
|
|
Ghostnuke posted:I kinda just realized I'm a dumbass - I can just weld an m12 nut to the underside of the 1/2 inch hole and thread the bolt through. Comedy option, file the 1/2" hole out to fit the m12 nut, then weld the nut on.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 00:16
|
|
|
immoral_ posted:Comedy option, file the 1/2" hole out to fit the m12 nut, then weld the nut on. peen around the 1/2" hole until it closes up below the minor diameter and then drill and tap to M12
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 00:25
|
|
|
Metalworking: Peen around the hole, then drill and tap it I now have a set of wrenches in imperial and metric. Yay! I forgot that jet cutters cut only the top face on dimension. Hopefully I'm still within tolerance. Anyone got a rec for resources for my first heat treat?
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 06:45
|
|
|
I need to make a part at work that is a little lever that fits in a 1” x 1.5” bounding box, should be 300 series stainless and needs to be .062” +.001/-.003 with a .001 flatness tolerance. I was planning on getting tight tolerance sheets and screwing it down to a machined flat fixture and then contouring it out with tabs (on a CNC mill….I regularly use this technique for flat stuff), but I can’t find any material at that thickness in those tolerances. My normal metal supplier only goes down to 1/8” in the ground ss, same as McMaster. Anywhere else I should look?
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 19:58
|
|
|
tylertfb posted:I need to make a part at work that is a little lever that fits in a 1” x 1.5” bounding box, should be 300 series stainless and needs to be .062” +.001/-.003 with a .001 flatness tolerance. I was planning on getting tight tolerance sheets and screwing it down to a machined flat fixture and then contouring it out with tabs (on a CNC mill….I regularly use this technique for flat stuff), but I can’t find any material at that thickness in those tolerances. My normal metal supplier only goes down to 1/8” in the ground ss, same as McMaster. Anywhere else I should look? Places like Dix Metals and TCI supply this kind of stuff to McMaster Carr so you'll see the same thicknesses, however they do make custom plates. Not sure if this is like a one off for you or a production type part, but you could get plates quoted from them.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 20:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 12:39 |
|
|
A Proper Uppercut posted:Places like Dix Metals and TCI supply this kind of stuff to McMaster Carr so you'll see the same thicknesses, however they do make custom plates. Not sure if this is like a one off for you or a production type part, but you could get plates quoted from them. I forgot about TCI, been meaning to see if I can use them here. I need 30 of these things
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 22:52
|
|