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Zarin posted:LMAO, poo poo, did I just interview with you today? It's this exactly.
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Oct 6, 2023 19:19
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Zarin posted:LMAO, poo poo, did I just interview with you today? Haha! If it had been you, I'd regret my decision not to push for more salary! But in general, I think you & the others are correct that New Manager either doesn't like other people's hires in general, or distrusts Old Manager's hires in particular. I incline towards the second guess myself. Still, I think rescinding would be a bad choice & so pushed pretty hard to just stay firm on the offer instead. I'm pretty confident that's what will happen, but who knows, maybe I'll get overruled!
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Oct 6, 2023 19:48
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It would be kinder to the applicant to rescind the offer.
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Oct 6, 2023 19:49
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Never understood the thought to pull an offer. You'd almost never pull an offer in so many other facets of negotiations, why is it so common in hiring?
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Oct 6, 2023 20:46
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Because you’re facing a dreaded laborer, not a fellow small/intergalactic business owner who’s just out to make a deal.
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Oct 6, 2023 20:50
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You're gonna let some shithead come in and entertain making more money than your generous initial offer? Don't they know it's a privilege to be considered for a role programming machines at the dick sucking factory?
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Oct 6, 2023 20:55
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81sidewinder posted:Never understood the thought to pull an offer. You'd almost never pull an offer in so many other facets of negotiations, why is it so common in hiring? I have done it. Our of offer was $97k with a posted range of $85-$105k. He countered with $142k. I was just like thanks for your time, we are going to go another direction.
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Oct 6, 2023 22:54
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In that case that's what he was communicating to you, in so many words.
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Oct 6, 2023 23:07
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Eric the Mauve posted:In that case that's what he was communicating to you, in so many words. The ol’ “gently caress you” money, huh? I already posted my saga, probably not worth re-hashing, and I’ll never know why they did that poo poo (for <10%!)
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Oct 6, 2023 23:52
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Eric the Mauve posted:In that case that's what he was communicating to you, in so many words. I would say he was delusional. I floated it to 4 of our consultants and they were laughing. But if he got it somewhere else that is great for him.
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Oct 7, 2023 00:06
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Eric the Mauve posted:In that case that's what he was communicating to you, in so many words.
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Oct 7, 2023 00:55
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Looking for advice on how to approach this offer negotiation. tl;dr - I'm being asked for a number. We had kinda alluded to $150k pre-interviews. I would at a minimum take $150k. But I don't want to take less. Quick context: I just completed several rounds of interviews and according to the recruiter the company is "keen" on my candidacy. When she (an external recruiter retained by the org to fill this role) had originally asked for my salary expectations, I asked about the budget for the role, which she gave as $120-150k. I told her that the ranges I'm generally seeing in the market for this type of role average $150-180k, but since there is overlap between their high end and the market low end, I hoped we could work something out. Now, post-interviews, she has asked me what salary number would entice me to take the role, and referenced the $150k. For the record, that number is right around my absolute floor, but...I would take it for the experience and development. I told the recruiter the number would depend on the overall compensation package, as I don't know the extent of the benefits and she wasn't familiar with that info, either, and that I'd have to think it over to give her a number before seeing any offer. When I asked whether offer negotiation would go through her or be direct with the employer, she mentioned that room for negotiation after the initial offer is limited:you have one chance to come back with something and that's it. Oh, I'm also in the running for the same type of role with another company, where the range actually is $150-180k. But there is at least one more round of interviews to go. First, two questions: Is it typical for an external recruiter to ask you for your 'yes' number before you receive an offer (and before knowing what the total comp plan included)? And is it typical for offer negotiation to be such a one-and-done process? It's been a long time since I've been in this position. As to my response: I'm tempted to anchor high by telling her $160k, because I worry if I say that yeah, $150k is fine, they'll just try to drag that down. (I'm also hesitant to anchor any higher than that, because it might feel like to jarring a shift). Thoughts? Again, keeping in mind I don't have the full benefits picture yet. Should I mention that I'm knee-deep in interviews for another role that is in the market range, or is there a possibility it would work against me? Having recently read "Never Split the Difference" (and then "Start with No"), I've thought about turning this into a calibrated question if there's pushback, "How can I commit to $X if I'm in contention for a role that pays up to $X+20%?" or something to that effect. I've also thought about just sticking to, "How can I give you a number when I don't know what other elements are involved in the overall comp package?"  Thanks in advance for your brutal and practical advice y'all. Habibi fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 21:06
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I'd anchor higher, more like 170k. Do you know benefits/other comp details, etc? If not, anchor high and ask to see those. You can't commit to any number until you do, so this is a good opportunity to anchor high and then let them give you reasons to come down. Let them negotiate against their own benefits. Yes it is normal for an external recruiter to do that. They are way more likely to lowball you or try to anchor you low. The real range may even be higher, but they are trying to keep you low so its smooth sailing. It won't be one and done. Yes, you should mention you are interviewing elsewhere. It makes you look more appealing. You could ask for them to give you a number, but this isn't a "don't say a number first" situation because they already gave a range and already talked numbers with you. If you ask for a number they certainly won't give one over 150k, and will probably try to start lower. If you don't feel able to do my above advice, then certainly you can bounce the ball back but then I think it'll be a larger uphill climb.
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Oct 8, 2023 21:17
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Lockback posted:I'd anchor higher, more like 170k. Do you know benefits/other comp details, etc? If not, anchor high and ask to see those. You can't commit to any number until you do, so this is a good opportunity to anchor high and then let them give you reasons to come down. Let them negotiate against their own benefits. Do not know other comp details. Also, neglected to note: I'd asked the the hiring manager for the budget separately, and unlike the recruiter, she hedged, saying they're still figuring out if it'll be a Sr Manager or Director level (I applied for the latter, and Sr Manager would be a showstopper), and giving me an upper bound of $145k, which made me think was not being entirely upfront. I 100% agree that I don't want to, given the sequence of events to date, throw the ball back in their court. This seems like a great opportunity to pull the conversation in my direction rather than ceding the initiative to them. Interesting to hear that the recruiter is likely to lowball me, but I guess I am not very familiar with their incentive structures (I seem to recall a time when they'd get %age of salary, so it was in their interest to push higher, but maybe I'm misremembering). At this point, I'm thinking of coming back with something like, "Without knowledge of benefits / other comp details, I can't commit to less than $170k, especially as I'm currently interviewing for a comparable role that is more aligned with market pay." Should I ask her for those benefit/etc details or just leave it at this, since the request is rather strongly implied?
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Oct 8, 2023 21:40
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Habibi posted:
I'd soften that statement somewhat, but yes that is the tact I'd take. Given the salary information you've gotten this sounds a lot like they budgeted for senior manager but are using director title to try to bait people in. So trying to uncover the lowball is probably not a bad idea at this point. And yes, recruiters make a %, but he knows if he convinces you of 140k then he will 100% land it and can move on, if you want 160, there's way more chance of him getting 0% or it taking longer. Recruiters tend to try to suppress wages to keep the pipeline going.
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Oct 8, 2023 21:48
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Lockback posted:I'd soften that statement somewhat, but yes that is the tact I'd take. Given the salary information you've gotten this sounds a lot like they budgeted for senior manager but are using director title to try to bait people in. So trying to uncover the lowball is probably not a bad idea at this point. Thanks for the advice. I'll soften to something like "it's very hard for me to commit" rather than "can't" and throw in a few pleasantries to smooth things over. Although, if you have any thoughts about that given your perspective, I'd appreciate hearing them. Habibi fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 23:10
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Basically when candidates are interviewing with me, I don't mind negotiating at all, but it is kinda annoying when people take aggressive stances. Like, we're all adults just talk through it or just say we're not close or whatever. Your statement wasn't bad but I'd err on the side of a softer tone in general.
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Oct 8, 2023 23:48
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Negotiating with a new company for salary, I set my expectations at 235k, they came back with 215k, I countered with 225.. I’m a bit surprised because a guy who just joined that I worked with came in at the same level and got the 215k but I have a good 5 plus more years experience than him. I was expecting them give me more of a bump for that! My only regret is not anchoring higher tbh I should have gone 250. All figures are in CAD so it’s all funny money 
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Oct 17, 2023 18:30
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Oh God, gently caress, I really hosed up now! I accepted an offer with a different company (and just passed the last offramps) so now I need to have The Conversation with my current boss. It's not hard, per se, but I always stress about this part the most. Dunno why. I'm always happy for everyone else that leaves but for me it feels like some kinda betrayal or something, bleh.
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Oct 17, 2023 21:38
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Think about all the times they dangled a promotion and it never materialized Think about all the barely-cost-of-living raises they granted by making sad noises about the budget (while the company posted record profits) Think about how much money your work made for the company and how little of that money ended up in your pocket Think about how much you sweated the last time there were rumors about layoffs Get good and mad. Steel you heart and your eyes. You're going to go get (a fraction of) what's yours, this is how the system is supposed to work
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Oct 17, 2023 21:46
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FMguru posted:Think about all the times they dangled a promotion and it never materialized  All excellent points, and ones that I have an example for already even though I haven't been here quite 3 years yet. Good timing, as my call should be in 45 minutes or so.
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Oct 17, 2023 21:52
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You mean you’re going to BETRAY your FAMILY?! The propaganda works, make no mistake about it. Plus you spend a lot of your life with those people. This system really is about FYGM, and you’re just getting a slightly bigger piece of yours. No shame in it. If you enjoyed your time, look them in the eye and shake their hand. Even keep ties if it goes that far. Otherwise mumble and shuffle.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:04
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Zarin posted:
They would lay you off the second it becomes more profitable for them to do that instead of keeping you on. You owe them nothing. You have a contract that says you’ll work for money. As soon as you (or they) want to end the contract you (or they) can. If they want loyalty they should get a dog.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:07
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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:You mean you’re going to BETRAY your FAMILY?! The propaganda works, make no mistake about it. Plus you spend a lot of your life with those people. This system really is about FYGM, and you’re just getting a slightly bigger piece of yours. No shame in it. "Enjoy" is a . . . strong word, here. I can honestly say that work hasn't been the reason I cried (in a manly fashion, of course) for at least a year and a half  LochNessMonster posted:They would lay you off the second it becomes more profitable for them to do that instead of keeping you on. Appreciate the sentiments, everyone! A good reminder, for sure. I had no trouble having these thoughts when I was interviewing and exploring other opportunities, but it's another thing when confronted with the reality that I need to part ways now, heh. Just gotta mark time until the bossman is done with his meeting.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:14
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It is finished. Based on body language, I am afraid that I may have ruined a man's evening.  "On to the next one."
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Oct 18, 2023 01:39
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I had similar feelings last week. Then they told me I was being put on gardening leave (yay!) and then immediately cut my access to everything (okay?) after which colleagues reached out via our bitching backchannel chat to ask if I had really stored up that much leave to request off (lol, the fuckers). Well rid TBH.
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Oct 18, 2023 02:31
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Not sure if this would be the thread for it, but when leaving a job do companies usually cut off RSU vesting if they’re in a notice period? I have a bunch vesting on Dec2 and trying to figure out how I want to do it with a start date for a new job and when to give notice/last day for on my current one. Might be a bit of a stretch and I would like to just move over, but if I could make Dec 8 the last day with the vesting in the notice period..
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Oct 18, 2023 03:43
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priznat posted:Not sure if this would be the thread for it, but when leaving a job do companies usually cut off RSU vesting if they’re in a notice period? While they probably could do so I've never heard of it happening. I'd be more concerned about being immediately fired upon giving notice.
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Oct 18, 2023 03:58
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asur posted:While they probably could do so I've never heard of it happening. I'd be more concerned about being immediately fired upon giving notice. Which is one way to cut vesting.
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Oct 18, 2023 04:03
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When it comes to bonuses, vest dates, etc. the safest move is always to wait until the date passes. Maybe your company is chill about it, maybe they're not. Unfortunately there's only one way to find out.
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Oct 18, 2023 04:06
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Guinness posted:When it comes to bonuses, vest dates, etc. the safest move is always to wait until the date passes. Yeah pretty much what I'm thinking. I may just move over sooner, I did ask for a signing bonus to compensate for this loss, but hey if I can get both... But nah probably will just give my 2 weeks when I accept my written contract hopefully in the next day or two.
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Oct 18, 2023 04:11
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Can you take your vacation over the vesting date and drop notice when you get back? keep a copy of the vacation form/communique for your records obvs
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Oct 18, 2023 05:07
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You can ask the company hiring you to either push the start date back past the vest date, or compensate you for the money you're losing by way of a sign-on bonus. But it sounds like you already accepted the offer and agreed on a start date?
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Oct 18, 2023 13:03
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Everywhere I've ever been has been cool about letting you vest as long as you give enough notice, etc. But I've heard of the opposite so:Guinness posted:When it comes to bonuses, vest dates, etc. the safest move is always to wait until the date passes.
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Oct 18, 2023 15:06
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Unless they are concerned about your future goodwill, there is a ton of incentive for several people in your management chain or HR to cut off your benefits as early as possible. "Hey boss, I just saved the company $X by screwing this guy that was leaving anyway!" Don't give 'em the chance if you can help it.
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Oct 18, 2023 15:16
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Not a Children posted:Unless they are concerned about your future goodwill, there is a ton of incentive for several people in your management chain or HR to cut off your benefits as early as possible. "Hey boss, I just saved the company $X by screwing this guy that was leaving anyway!" Don't give 'em the chance if you can help it. That kinda thing does spread around though, so it's not just the goodwill of the individual but of the group as a whole. That's why a lot of places will still honor it. The money saved pulling back a vestment is absolute peanuts, probably not something that would be all that impressive up the chain. That said, I totally agree that if possible avoid the situation entirely because its the exact kind of penny-wise, pound foolish thing that can happen.
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Oct 18, 2023 16:02
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There really isn't incentive for anyone in HR to do it, the important thing is whether it's the standard practice for the company or not. It's not like I get a bonus because I cut off vesting for someone. Regardless, I'd still wait until the date passes and then give your notice. There's still plenty of reasons to term someone in the notice period, or language in the agreement that people tend to gloss over, which could have an impact.
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Oct 18, 2023 16:05
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Eric the Mauve posted:You can ask the company hiring you to either push the start date back past the vest date, or compensate you for the money you're losing by way of a sign-on bonus. No nothing is accepted yet and this is what I’m doing, they initially didn’t match the vesting amount with the sign on and trying to get that boosted.
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Oct 18, 2023 16:27
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Zarin posted:
A lot of people at my previous company I spoke with hated it but wanted to work for X years before moving on out of principle. gently caress it, just walk out, real winners quit. Life is too short to dump years into a job you hate.
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Oct 18, 2023 17:19
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Ended up getting more signing bonus, more RSUs from the new company and the start date pushed so my vest with the old company will be in the notice period. From reading the contracts it seems like as long as I am not terminated (ie still working there and getting paid, which I would be they never walk anyone out when they give notice) I should get the vesting as well. I’ve hedged enough against it so if I don’t it’s not a huge loss but if I do it’d be a really nice bonus. I’m 80% sure I’ll be able to get it but who knows. Verbally accepted and the contract stuff should be today/tomorrow.
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Oct 18, 2023 19:17
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