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Chronojam posted:They're really dangerous and annoying for armored vehicles making a push. They're irreplaceable in the same sense the Ford Focus is irreplaceable. Yeah, that exact thing is no longer being made, but newer and better alternatives exist should they run out. Edit: wait, did you mean the helicopter or the ATACMS? A.o.D. fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 00:00
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A.o.D. posted:They're irreplaceable in the same sense the Ford Focus is irreplaceable. Yeah, that exact thing is no longer being made, but newer and better alternatives exist should they run out. They ordered the latest model of the KA-52 in 2018, the first ten were delivered in early 2023, apparently. I think that's a sufficiently slow rate of production/upgrading of old versions that they might as well be irreplaceable
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Oct 19, 2023 00:07
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Rev. Bleech_ posted:as long as the missile knows where the bridge isn't, you're golden Hmm, I see, so as long as we can subtract where the missile is from where it isn't it can find the bridge?
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Oct 19, 2023 00:38
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PurpleXVI posted:They ordered the latest model of the KA-52 in 2018, the first ten were delivered in early 2023, apparently. I think that's a sufficiently slow rate of production/upgrading of old versions that they might as well be irreplaceable I thought you meant the ATACMS at first (which is also out of production). Losing KA-52s is an outcome I'm cheering for.
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Oct 19, 2023 01:02
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:Burning through Dragon missiles that had been manufactured in the mid-70s was a treat. The only time I ever enjoyed firing that bastard. I’m sure all the Dragon hate is justified but I have to think that in say, 1978 they would have been a real problem if you’re trying to LeRoy Jenkins a mechanized corps down the fulda gap. Not Javelin levels of “in the dark from 5 klicks away right in the soft spot” but enough to make problems.
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Oct 19, 2023 01:08
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I remain blown away at just how much bang for their buck Ukraine gets out of basically every long range missile. I was going to amend that sentence with 'given to them' but they sunk the moskva and another landing ship (and damaged yet another that apparently is still out of commission) with their own missiles (neptunes and tochkas respectively) well before anyone had even dared to imagine Ukraine receiving missiles from france/england/the us there's a thesis in there somewhere probably about the comparative advantage and value of using weapons against military targets and not in emotional retaliatory strikes
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Oct 19, 2023 01:29
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PurpleXVI posted:This has gotta be a bit of clever propaganda, right? There's no way Budanov is actually out there geared up and participating in the fighting, right? From a few pages ago, but it wouldn't be the first time. This is a photo of Adm McRaven (a 4 star admiral and SEAL) going on a HVT raid in Iraq. The other guy is a CSM, the two blurred faces are UKSAS.  Anyways, back to lurking.
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Oct 19, 2023 01:30
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Defenestrategy posted:Hmm, I see, so as long as we can subtract where the missile is from where it isn't it can find the bridge? 
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Oct 19, 2023 01:45
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I remain blown away at just how much bang for their buck Ukraine gets out of basically every long range missile. I was going to amend that sentence with 'given to them' but they sunk the moskva and another landing ship (and damaged yet another that apparently is still out of commission) with their own missiles (neptunes and tochkas respectively) well before anyone had even dared to imagine Ukraine receiving missiles from france/england/the us I hope the case study makes its way into doctrine. I think we could really ratchet up our effectiveness by exercising more selective targeting. I am also curious about how much can be credited to Russian incompetence. It seems like the world's militaries are separated into "those who train/try" and "those who grift". I didn't expect that to be the separation, but it seems that way.
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Oct 19, 2023 01:52
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The missile subtracts where it was from where it wasn’t, and in doing so knows where the KA-52 now isn’t.
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Oct 19, 2023 01:55
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Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:I was an IT admin in that time frame and I remember that we had 2 specific Dell desktop models deployed company wide that to a man failed with those bursting caps. Oh man. I worked at a web hosting company that used about 3000 of these as low cost “servers” boy let me tell you those caps became a very familiar problem.
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Oct 19, 2023 01:56
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ASAPI posted:I hope the case study makes its way into doctrine. I think we could really ratchet up our effectiveness by exercising more selective targeting.
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Oct 19, 2023 02:03
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TheWeedNumber posted:Clarification, just wanted to say that for no reason. Don’t give them nukes lol Counterpoint - bring back the SADM
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Oct 19, 2023 02:05
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Defenestrategy posted:Hmm, I see, so as long as we can subtract where the missile is from where it isn't it can find the bridge? Exactly, it knows where the bridge will be and avoiding all positions where the bridge isn't it will arrive at where the bridge is and occupy that position. Now the bridge can't be where it was, and the missile is now, and so the bridge isn't where it was which is what the user wanted.
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Oct 19, 2023 02:10
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M_Gargantua posted:Counterpoint - bring back the SADM I'm sorry I'm the first to give you this news, but we got him a long time ago. He was buried a little hole.
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Oct 19, 2023 02:30
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Murgos posted:I’m sure all the Dragon hate is justified but I have to think that in say, 1978 they would have been a real problem if you’re trying to LeRoy Jenkins a mechanized corps down the fulda gap. Oh, it's justified. I started out as a Dragon gunner in the 82nd, I hated that motherfucker with every fiber of my being. You fire one? Everybody knows where you are as it takes its loving time down range and you can't move. It has issues with brush and water crossings. Firing it from a pro when the backblast did its thing and that cone is ridiculously wide and could be very erratic (you never could tell what was the safe area). The prone position is possible, but unbelievably not fun and it caught my AG's boot on fire once (see cone size) and finally parachuting that bitch was a nightmare.
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Oct 19, 2023 03:54
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I remain blown away at just how much bang for their buck Ukraine gets out of basically every long range missile. I was going to amend that sentence with 'given to them' but they sunk the moskva and another landing ship (and damaged yet another that apparently is still out of commission) with their own missiles (neptunes and tochkas respectively) well before anyone had even dared to imagine Ukraine receiving missiles from france/england/the us One thing to keep in mind is that we don't get a lot of information as to the misses and failures. The broadcast successes are fantastic, but we don't have a good picture of even, for example, how many HIMARs are still active or how many ATACMs/Storm Shadow/Neptunes have been used to less spectacular results (and nor should we). But regardless, hopefully that will all work in Ukraine's favor in the long run if it hopes to build a strong postwar local MIC as they'll at least be able to advertise strong successes and at least fine tune failures with proven field experience. But to call all this hardware wunderwaffen at this point is premature IMO.
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Oct 19, 2023 05:16
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It's not so much that the hardware is wonderful as that the Ukrainians seem talented at taking whatever mixed lot of hand-me-downs has been given to them and using it all to good effect.
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Oct 19, 2023 07:22
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You can't really kill something like a HIMARS way back from the front lines without good recon. And if Russia had hit one, we'd have seen the video. The same goes for StormShadow/ATACMS. Russia isn't claiming interceptions, so they've got nothing. The helicopter base looks to have been hit by 3 ATACMS. There's one dud intact on the ground, some helos got destroyed, and maybe the third missile did stuff too or maybe it got intercepted. At best Russian air defense had a 33% success rate against a 27-year old American missile. Russia isn't even claiming an intercept that I've seen. Early reporting is that we only sent 12 ATACMS. Five of those turned into 5 destroyed KA-52s at a base positioned to support the Zaporozhe defenses, maybe 5-7% of the remaining stock of those birds. The other 7? Russia now knows that they're looking at 2-3 of those hitting anything that's a good target for a cluster warhead and in range. Ukraine doesn't even need to launch them to disrupt Russian rear areas.
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Oct 19, 2023 08:05
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The Lone Badger posted:It's not so much that the hardware is wonderful as that the Ukrainians seem talented at taking whatever mixed lot of hand-me-downs has been given to them and using it all to good effect. I'm pretty sure the equipment they've been provided is far better than the Soviet crap they were relying on at the beginning of the war.
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Oct 19, 2023 08:42
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https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1714709500672753792 https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1714710724834922588
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Oct 19, 2023 08:49
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mllaneza posted:You can't really kill something like a HIMARS way back from the front lines without good recon. And if Russia had hit one, we'd have seen the video. The same goes for StormShadow/ATACMS. Russia isn't claiming interceptions, so they've got nothing. um excuse me but russia has more kills on himars units than have been produced. checkmate.
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Oct 19, 2023 09:15
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PurpleXVI posted:They ordered the latest model of the KA-52 in 2018, the first ten were delivered in early 2023, apparently. I think that's a sufficiently slow rate of production/upgrading of old versions that they might as well be irreplaceable Also how much of the design relies on western components directly or western machine tools to manufacture said components domestically, because those supply chains are a little disrupted.
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Oct 19, 2023 10:16
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Russia had roughly 130 KA-52 before the war. They've lost at least 40-50 so far. Losing another 5 at once does hurt quite a bit.
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Oct 19, 2023 11:03
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Alan Smithee posted:https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1714709500672753792 https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1714710724834922588 holy poo poo aren't they based in Belarus?
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Oct 19, 2023 11:32
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shame on an IGA posted:holy poo poo aren't they based in Belarus? Founded in Belarus, but Wikipedia says their current HQ is in Cyprus. quote:Studios PurpleXVI fucked around with this message at 11:42 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 11:39
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DTurtle posted:Russia had roughly 130 KA-52 before the war. They've lost at least 40-50 so far. Losing another 5 at once does hurt quite a bit. That's a quite the percentage of a domestic aircraft fleet gone. It's approaching the percentage of F-105's lost in the Vietnam War, almost half of which were destroyed. Not a perfect comparison, as the Kamov is still being made, while the F-105 had ended production, but it's the closest modern example I can think of.
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Oct 19, 2023 11:57
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I don't imagine the maintenance situation is a good one for the remaining not-exploded helicopters.
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Oct 19, 2023 12:06
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Deptfordx posted:Also how much of the design relies on western components directly or western machine tools to manufacture said components domestically, because those supply chains are a little disrupted. Not fully disrupted, though: https://twitter.com/SimonOstrovsky/status/1714635115890892934#m
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Oct 19, 2023 12:33
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OddObserver posted:Not fully disrupted, though: That's a Sepp Blatter style denial. are they actively dodging sanctions?
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Oct 19, 2023 12:44
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A.o.D. posted:That's a Sepp Blatter style denial. More than likely they aren't bothering to verify the buyer. A lot of equipment is being resold (presumably at a huge markup) by companies in the bordering CIS countries. If you've only ever gotten 2 orders from Kazakhstan and then suddenly you're getting 200, it should raise questions. But a lot of (mostly European) countries that used to do business in Russia are looking the other way.
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Oct 19, 2023 12:56
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psydude posted:More than likely they aren't bothering to verify the buyer. A lot of equipment is being resold (presumably at a huge markup) by companies in the bordering CIS countries. If you've only ever gotten 2 orders from Kazakhstan and then suddenly you're getting 200, it should raise questions. But a lot of (mostly European) countries that used to do business in Russia are looking the other way. So a German article on it makes it unclear whether it's even covered by sanctions, but makes it clear that the shell companies involved are utterly transparent: https://twitter.com/SimonOstrovsky/status/1714351524120252807#m ... certainly the sort of case you described would be against how US sanctions are normally supposed to work, but I have no clue on EU ones.
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Oct 19, 2023 13:00
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OddObserver posted:... certainly the sort of case you described would be against how US sanctions are normally supposed to work, but I have no clue on EU ones. If there's one thing that's become clear about EU enforcement over the years, it's that it's intended specifically to not target EU companies.
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Oct 19, 2023 13:06
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OddObserver posted:So a German article on it makes it unclear whether it's even covered by sanctions, but makes it clear that the shell companies involved are utterly transparent: Got a translated version of the article for those of us who do not read German? At least one commenter is calling the evidence weak, but I'd like to read it for myself.
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Oct 19, 2023 13:19
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PurpleXVI posted:Got a translated version of the article for those of us who do not read German? At least one commenter is calling the evidence weak, but I'd like to read it for myself. I read via Google translate myself. (The first of the two buttons it pops up in interstitial worked, won the lottery there). Edit: the first link there is to the original PBS story: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/machinery-from-new-york-based-company-used-to-build-russian-weapons-used-in-war-on-ukraine OddObserver fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 13:36
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cult_hero posted:One thing to keep in mind is that we don't get a lot of information as to the misses and failures. The broadcast successes are fantastic, but we don't have a good picture of even, for example, how many HIMARs are still active or how many ATACMs/Storm Shadow/Neptunes have been used to less spectacular results (and nor should we). it feels to me like Ukraine doesn't deny when things go to poo poo, they just aren't as loud as their successes. They didn't bawl and pitch a fit when they had that failed strike with all their fancy NATO equipment 6 months ago. They just kept on doing their thing, which was asking for more gear and better gear
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Oct 19, 2023 18:49
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Aces High posted:it feels to me like Ukraine doesn't deny when things go to poo poo, they just aren't as loud as their successes. They didn't bawl and pitch a fit when they had that failed strike with all their fancy NATO equipment 6 months ago. They just kept on doing their thing, which was asking for more gear and better gear When you're relying on good will from countries with wildly different expectations, being humble when making mistakes is really important to keep everyone confident that backing you is the right choice. Imagine how easy it would be to pull funding in wavering countries if they had the "blind optimism" Russia does with its reporting of conditions on the operational level* E: that reads wrong, I think. "on the operational levels when they fail:. I don't mean to imply that Ukraine has similar levels of success to Russia on the operational level The Door Frame fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 20:34
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If true, Russian ability to respond with attack helicopters to Ukranian armored movements has been gutted https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1715132980652310662
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Oct 20, 2023 05:22
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That's one hell of a strike.
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Oct 20, 2023 06:02
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Tbh if I was a Russian heli pilot I'd be quietly cheering.
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