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Paracaidas posted:Hard disagree. Cannot fathom the courts waiting to take up restrictions on the speech of a major presidential candidate until after the trial, particularly when the restrictions extend beyond the walls of the courthouse. Thanks for the notes. Here's the actual order from Chutkan, it's very short. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.258149/gov.uscourts.dcd.258149.105.0_1.pdf Would be interested in your thoughts on it. Most relevant part seems to be: quote:Circuit Courts in both United States v. Brown and United States v. Ford recognized that First Amendment rights must yield to the imperative of a fair trial. 218 F.3d 415, 424 (2000); 830 F.2d 596, 599 (1987). Unlike the district courts in those cases, however, this court has found that even amidst his political campaign, Defendant’s statements pose sufficiently grave threats to the integrity of these proceedings that cannot be addressed by alternative means, and it has tailored its order to meet the force of those threats. Brown, 218 F.3d at 428–30; Ford, 830 F.2d at 600. Thus, limited restrictions on extrajudicial statements are justified here.
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Oct 17, 2023 16:58
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Kavros posted:It doesn't matter to the overall strategy, which is to: It. Was. Infuriating. Between their idiotic questions (which at best, did nothing and at worst actively worked against them), the judge entertaining nearly all of their motions, and nearly thirty trial pauses over five days to have the jury leave so matters could be discussed without us, it was almost intolerable. It seemed like such an egregious, obscene waste of my time. My saving grace was a nearly hour long commute where I could talk myself off the cliff and realize/remind myself that "this is all being done to have an airtight, solid, non-mistrial, appeal-free (as possible) trial".
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Oct 17, 2023 17:14
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mdemone posted:Thanks for the notes. As a layidiot: I think Chutkan did an admirable job of trimming down a disappointingly broad request from Justice and align more with her order than with Gaston's arguments. I think it's much more likely to survive appeal than rubberstamping Justice's ask or some of what's been proposed in the thread. To the extent there's risk (beyond throwing out precedent and process to protect Trump), I think a reasonable appellate or SCOTUS judge could feel the bolded below is too wide a range and inappropriately conflates the Milley tweets with less objectionable ones quote:Defendant has made those statements to national audiences using language communicating not merely that he believes the process to be illegitimate, but also that particular individuals involved in it are liars, or “thugs,” or deserve death. Id.; ECF No. 64 at 9–10. The court finds that such statements pose a significant and immediate risk that (1) witnesses will be intimidated or otherwise unduly influenced by the prospect of being themselves targeted for harassment or threats; and (2)attorneys, public servants, and other court staff will themselves become targets for threats and harassment. The other thing that surprises me a bit is that she accepts an argument from Justice that borders on a hecklers veto, levying a restriction on Trump because of others' reaction to his speech. The more common version of this is that if a campus can't bar Richard Spencer from speaking due to the inflammatory nature of his content, they also cannot ban him due to the expected reactions of others to his inflammatory content ('security risks'). My wild rear end guess is that from how she referenced the NY Clerk post in both the order and the hearing (with special attention to how it occurred after Justice filed here), we'd have seen a more incremental order had he kept that an inside thought. I think those aspects will hold up - there's ample case law that, though still presumed unconstitutional, prior restraint is permissible when necessary for the fair and orderly administration of justice. If the intimidation is jeopardizing that, she can only restrict the parties, not the howling mob. To the extent there's risk on this, it's an (somewhat legitimate) argument that the restriction will be ineffective - that anyone could dig through the NY Clerk's socials to find a picture with Schumer and that a Trump child, speaker of the House, or disgraced former Fox host could amplify that post absent instruction from Trump and the intimidation will occur anyway. Worth noting that she has been explicit (as Smith was in the indictment) on what is unquestionably protected: quote:This Order shall not be construed to prohibit Defendant from making statements criticizing the government generally, including the current administration or the Department of Justice; statements asserting that Defendant is innocent of the charges against him, or that his prosecution is politically motivated; or statements criticizing the campaign platforms or policies of Defendant’s current political rivals, such as former Vice President Pence. A rational boundary pusher here would test the extent to which he can impugn Pence's character as a qualification for office before it crosses the line, but history suggests he'll violate in a much dumber way first.
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Oct 17, 2023 20:21
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https://themessenger.com/politics/mcafee-chesebro-powell-motions-dismiss-trial-georgia Judge McAfee denied most of Powells and Chesebro motions to dismiss in one fell swoop and now were waiting on his order regarding their first amendment claims. Not sure if that’s a bad sign that they are in a separate order or if that doesn’t really mean anything other than he wanted it separate so that the appeal wouldn’t get to tangled. Edit: Meanwhile in NY, https://abcnews.go.com/US/live-updates/trump-fraud-trial/?id=103642561#104048082 quote:Larson's name appears across five years of Donald Trump's financial documents, according to records entered into evidence. Seems bad to reference a source who denies having ever participated. Murgos fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Oct 18, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 01:09
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Zoeb posted:
Same. It's loving horrifying.
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Oct 18, 2023 01:13
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I'm not trans and don't know what it's like to live in that kind of fear. I'm sorry it's like this and many people across the world support and affirm your existence at a bare minimum every day. From my perspective, Trump has a slim chance to win. He's a three time loser with multiple state and federal level cases levied against him. His fan base is loud but, in my perspective, shrinking. Biden hasn't been a bad president by any means and as the incumbent has an advantage. Of course anything could happen, but I wanted to share my perspective in case there's a chance it's useful.
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Oct 18, 2023 01:21
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The chance is low, but the impact of the result is high, so I’m not gonna blame anyone for panicking. Hell, I’ll be unaffected directly by anything Trump does but I’m still panicking about whether this is at all the country I want my kid to grow up in. My sincere sympathy and empathy to those whose lives will be directly made worse.
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Oct 18, 2023 02:47
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Paracaidas posted:A friendly reminder that The GOP primary thread and USCE are both threads where polling and election chat are much more relevant to the thread's topics. Someone might even consider rebooting 2020's (lightly cursed) Polliwanks thread
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Oct 18, 2023 03:01
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Seems Trump posted a link to a Laura Loomer substack article that doxxs Letitia James. We'll probably find out tomorrow whether this violates the gag order. "The post linked to a Substack article published by Loomer that sketches out a tenuous link between James and "Christian J. French, The Trump hating COO and heir to the Anti-Trump 'Regional News Network (RNN),'" and which splashes screenshots of financial records that display what appears to be the attorney's home address in Brooklyn." https://twitter.com/Meidas_LaurenA/status/1714382873447580088
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Oct 18, 2023 05:56
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loving Laura Loomer too. Jesus loving Christ. He couldn’t even spring for Alex Jones. Ah gently caress, thirty years from now people studying this poo poo are going to have serious debates about Laura god drat Loomer.
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Oct 18, 2023 06:10
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OgNar posted:Seems Trump posted a link to a Laura Loomer substack article that doxxs Letitia James. No need to wait, this one's simple: Engoron's gag order bars posting or speaking publicly about any member of his staff. NYAG Letitia James is not a member of Engoron's staff. What happened here is that Meidas are lying grifters who regularly distort, twist, and overhype stories, seeking to expand their reach so that when it comes time to fundraise for their PAC (which funnels donor money to them in truly Trumpian fashion and pockets money donated to help in competitive races, like the GA-SEN runoffs), they have a wider audience to defraud. All they need is credulous marks to aid their efforts.
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Oct 18, 2023 06:11
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Dont ever call me credulous again.
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Oct 18, 2023 06:51
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Probably leads to a third separate new gag order in the Georgia case.
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Oct 18, 2023 16:23
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skeleton warrior posted:The chance is low, but the impact of the result is high, so I’m not gonna blame anyone for panicking. I know this is unpopular here but if you live in a swing state, get involved with the Biden campaign because at least making phone calls and canvassing is trying to stop Trump electorally.
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Oct 18, 2023 16:41
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Mooseontheloose posted:I know this is unpopular here but if you live in a swing state, get involved with the Biden campaign because at least making phone calls and canvassing is trying to stop Trump electorally. Also if you’re next door to a swing state (say Wisconsin).
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Oct 18, 2023 16:44
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Cimber posted:Judge Chutkan is doing all she can to give Trump the most leeway possible, because the last thing she (or the DoJ) want is for him to pause all the proceedings by going through all sorts of appeals on the legality of the gag order. The more she gives him, the less he'll be able to do poo poo to bog this down. alternating between that and "OOOOOHHHH ______ is in trouble now!! you don't want to mess with _______!! they'll come down on you hard!!"
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Oct 18, 2023 18:43
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InsertPotPun posted:literally something said about alex jones. Has something changed in his cases since the last time you claimed this a couple months ago?
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Oct 18, 2023 19:16
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Fuschia tude posted:Has something changed in his cases since the last time you claimed this a couple months ago?
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Oct 18, 2023 19:20
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It's kind of amazing how I can get 2000 posts behind in this thread and yet nothing has actually changed. Just more and more charges and potential charges, but absolutely nothing in terms of consequences has happened at all. I'm not doomering here, just kind of astounded by it. My uncle bounced a check for 100 bucks once and the justice system was quite swift in sweeping him off into jail.
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Oct 18, 2023 22:48
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quote:But the “relevant analysis,” Mr. Chesebro argued, “is political.” Seems like Chesebro is going to have a hard time with that “I was just a lawyer” defense since he appears to be acting as a political analyst and campaign advisor. https://web.archive.org/web/20231018155105/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/18/us/politics/kenneth-chesebro-trump-2020-election.html
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Oct 18, 2023 23:00
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InsertPotPun posted:no, that's the point. Right, so everyone who responded to you back then and told you no, you're wrong, his almost $1.5 billion damages awards have effectively banned him from owning anything ever again and all of his businesses are now property of the court which has appointed a trustee to go comb through every one of them line by line to identify every company he's ever opened in anyone's name and track down every cent he has stashed away anywhere in the world, is still correct.
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Oct 18, 2023 23:01
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Fuschia tude posted:Right, so everyone who responded to you back then and told you no, you're wrong, his almost $1.5 billion damages awards have effectively banned him from owning anything ever again and all of his businesses are now property of the court which has appointed a trustee to go comb through every one of them line by line to identify every company he's ever opened in anyone's name and track down every cent he has stashed away anywhere in the world, is still correct. The Bible posted:It's kind of amazing how I can get 2000 posts behind in this thread and yet nothing has actually changed. Just more and more charges and potential charges, but absolutely nothing in terms of consequences has happened at all. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 18, 2023 23:39
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Fuschia tude posted:Right, so everyone who responded to you back then and told you no, you're wrong, his almost $1.5 billion damages awards have effectively banned him from owning anything ever again and all of his businesses are now property of the court which has appointed a trustee to go comb through every one of them line by line to identify every company he's ever opened in anyone's name and track down every cent he has stashed away anywhere in the world, is still correct. Wasn't he still allowed to make like, half a million each year for his personal expenses and savings? He's going to live and die a lot more comfortably than the majority of us in this thread. Of course, by all appearances, it doesn't seem like it'll take too long for him to die. He looks like an overcooked sausage and the only emotion he seems to be able to experience is blinding rage.
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Oct 19, 2023 01:04
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"Losing access to your companies and losing billions" isn't something that is comprehensible to most people so it doesn't "feel" like a punishment... it's like, so what, I also don't have access to businesses or billions? For people like me, rich people problems are not real problems. But going to jail is something that people understand. It might not be accurate, but anything short of that doesn't feel like an actual consequence.
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Oct 19, 2023 01:15
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Crows Turn Off posted:"Losing access to your companies and losing billions" isn't something that is comprehensible to most people so it doesn't "feel" like a punishment... it's like, so what, I also don't have access to businesses or billions? For people like me, rich people problems are not real problems. It's made literally 0 difference in Donald Trump's comfort, capability to do what he wants, or future prospects. That's why it doesn't feel like an actual consequence.
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Oct 19, 2023 02:02
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Crows Turn Off posted:"Losing access to your companies and losing billions" isn't something that is comprehensible to most people so it doesn't "feel" like a punishment... it's like, so what, I also don't have access to businesses or billions? For people like me, rich people problems are not real problems. A big part of his image is private jet's and limousines. I'm guessing they'll be disappearing with the Trump ORG dissolving.
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Oct 19, 2023 02:10
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Crows Turn Off posted:"Losing access to your companies and losing billions" isn't something that is comprehensible to most people so it doesn't "feel" like a punishment... it's like, so what, I also don't have access to businesses or billions? For people like me, rich people problems are not real problems. it also hasn't actually happened yet
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Oct 19, 2023 02:32
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Tatsuta Age posted:It's made literally 0 difference in Donald Trump's comfort, capability to do what he wants, or future prospects. That's why it doesn't feel like an actual consequence. Of course, he never looks comfortable, only seems to want to bitch and whine, and given his diet/beliefs regarding exercise, probably doesn't have a particularly expansive future anyway. I doubt Trump will ever see any consequences before he dies. The system is just moving so incredibly slowly that it seems unlikely that he'll really have to face any actual sentence, but it is really pissing him off and will continue to do so until the coronary, and that's worth something in my eyes.
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Oct 19, 2023 02:48
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Yeah, I'll consider Alex Jones to have experienced an actual meaningful consequence when his quality of life drops below mine and not before.
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Oct 19, 2023 02:50
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pumpinglemma posted:Yeah, I'll consider Alex Jones to have experienced an actual meaningful consequence when his quality of life drops below mine and not before. Well, he has lost access to his kids, is enraged literally all day every day, many times without any reason, and is utterly hated by the vast majority of the US. His brain is also trapped in a slow meltdown where he honestly fears things such as ghosts, demons, and various other supernatural cryptids, and is surrounded mostly by other miserable conservative old men. He eats better food than you and probably sleeps in a more comfortable bed in a bigger house, but his life sucks very much right now. Would you honestly want to switch places with him right now? The Bible fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 02:52
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The Bible posted:Well, he has lost access to his kids, is enraged literally all day every day, many times without any reason, and is utterly hated by the vast majority of the US. His brain is also trapped in a slow meltdown where he honestly fears things such as ghosts, demons, and various other supernatural cryptids, and is surrounded mostly by other miserable conservative old men. I think Alex Jones's stomach and guts hurts more often than mine do.
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Oct 19, 2023 03:21
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The Bible posted:Well, he has lost access to his kids, is enraged literally all day every day, many times without any reason, and is utterly hated by the vast majority of the US. His brain is also trapped in a slow meltdown where he honestly fears things such as ghosts, demons, and various other supernatural cryptids, and is surrounded mostly by other miserable conservative old men. Shucks, y'all really know how to pick a feller up what's feelin' down
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Oct 19, 2023 03:38
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The disconnect that people are feeling is that all that awful poo poo happens to regular people all the time, only they don't also get Emerald Plus tier treatment the whole way through and thousands of second chances for years on end before getting reamed out with even worse stuff on top of it. It happens quick, fast, and in a hurry to normal people, it hurts normal people a lot more, with far less capability to recover and with much, much fewer opportunities to reverse course. Nobody is telling normal people they really shouldn't threaten members of the court or they'll be forced to document it and then not give you the kid gloves treatment and maybe rule against you if they can get away with it and not have it picked apart on appeal for being unfair. Normal people are just told "gently caress you. Get hosed. You lose, and now you lose harder. Get hosed again."
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Oct 19, 2023 03:59
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pumpinglemma posted:Yeah, I'll consider Alex Jones to have experienced an actual meaningful consequence when his quality of life drops below mine and not before. The purpose of the billion-dollar debt he owes isn't to punish him by driving him to bankruptcy, it's to provide his victims with a billion dollars as compensation for the harm he did them. The court is not actually trying to destroy him or reduce him to utter poverty. He owes several times more money than he actually has, but the court's ultimate goal here is to make sure his victims get the compensation they deserve - and therefore he needs to be able to keep making money so that he can keep paying the vast majority of that money to his victims. The court doesn't want to utterly destroy him, because utterly destroying him would make it very difficult for him to continue bringing in tens of millions of dollars a year - most of which would go to his victims and other debtors. It's still something like a 90% pay cut. He'll be able to live a decently comfortable life on the remaining ~10 percent, but I guarantee you he'll be utterly furious about having to work just as hard as he did before for a tiny fraction of the benefit.
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Oct 19, 2023 07:55
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Main Paineframe posted:The purpose of the billion-dollar debt he owes isn't to punish him by driving him to bankruptcy, it's to provide his victims with a billion dollars as compensation for the harm he did them. How much has he paid out so far?
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Oct 19, 2023 09:29
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Main Paineframe posted:The purpose of the billion-dollar debt he owes isn't to punish him by driving him to bankruptcy There needs to be major reform to megafuck these white collar and/or rich criminals when they step over the line as badly as Trump or Jones have. The wrist slaps and supposedly "rage inducing"-but-living-large type punishments aren't cutting it.
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Oct 19, 2023 09:41
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Jones’ victims don’t want his money, though. They want him to not have a venue through which he can hurt other people with his bullshit
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Oct 19, 2023 12:38
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Main Paineframe posted:It's still something like a 90% pay cut. He'll be able to live a decently comfortable life on the remaining ~10 percent, but I guarantee you he'll be utterly furious about having to work just as hard as he did before for a tiny fraction of the benefit. No, it isn't. It will probably be as you describe if it actually happens before he dies, but speaking of pay cuts and restitution in the present tense is wrong. One of the victims had a gofundme for medical bills recently. Because Alex has not paid yet and no bank would lend money with such unreliable collateral.
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Oct 19, 2023 12:46
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Scratch Monkey posted:Jones’ victims don’t want his money, though. They want him to not have a venue through which he can hurt other people with his bullshit They probably won't get either. He's been spending nearly 100k each month and hasn't paid them a dime.
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Oct 19, 2023 13:02
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But I don’t think this has much to do with Trump since he’s not going to ever get a financial penalty of “owes a billion dollars.” I wouldn’t expect any sanctions against the Trump org to end up with him living in a shack down by the river.
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Oct 19, 2023 13:24
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