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Ringo Roadagain posted:before hamas took over the gaza strip, there were israeli settlements in the gaza strip. the plan has always been to drive the palestinians out of the west bank and gaza strip, not just the west bank and leave the gaza strip alone. The Gaza Strip was formed from the Oslo Peace Accords which gave up Israeli control and put it under Palestinian Authority. The Israelis were removed as part of the Accords: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza Hamas did not "take over" anything. Can you reference what "the plan has always been" and by whom to drive Palestinians from the Gaza Strip?
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Oct 19, 2023 06:10
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i fly airplanes posted:Can you explain a bit by what you mean by blood libel? Are you unfamiliar with the term? Because it seems like you shouldn't be if you're posting in an I/P thread. If you're aware of it, it shouldn't be hard to see why I'd invoke it here - nothing else really conveys "lurid but unsubstantiated claims of child murder that are ethnically/religiously motivated, often as prelude to pogroms and/or other forms of ethnic cleansing." It is of course historically specifically antisemitic, but parallels don't get much clearer than leaders citing 40 mythical beheaded babies as a prelude to mass violence. Also, not knowing what "good faith" actually means is another pretty good reason for people not to put much stock in your interpretation of that term. 
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Oct 19, 2023 06:11
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i fly airplanes posted:The Gaza Strip was formed from the Oslo Peace Accords which gave up Israeli control and put it under Palestinian Authority. The Israelis were removed as part of the Accords: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007) quote:The Battle of Gaza, also referred to as Hamas's takeover of Gaza my reference is that israel was settling gaza until 2005
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Oct 19, 2023 06:13
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Ringo Roadagain posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007) My point is that the Israeli settlements being removed had nothing to do to the credit of Hamas, and instead was part of an internationally celebrated peace agreement. Your 'reference' of Israelis settling in Gaza Strip before the Peace Accords does not indicate an Israeli government plan to remove Palestinians from Gaza after them. LGD posted:40 mythical beheaded babies as a prelude to mass violence. i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 06:30
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i fly airplanes posted:My point is that the Israeli settlements being removed had nothing to do to the credit of Hamas, and instead was part of an internationally celebrated peace agreement. considering that after these "Peace Accords" (which peace accords btw?) the settlement of the west bank has continued, its not ridiculous to believe that eventually israel plans to start settling gaza again.
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Oct 19, 2023 06:48
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i fly airplanes posted:I haven't kept up with the baby story but I'd rather not debate on whether shooting up a youth music festival is sufficient "blood libel" in your eyes. That's fine, because like I said, the opinions of people demanding uncritical acceptance of blood libel as a precondition for conversation deserve no respect whatsoever, a stance that shouldn't be controversial. And I certainly don't have much interest in discussing a strawman thrown up as a transparent deflection. But, genuinely, real world, asking you sincerely: take a moment and truly consider the fact that you repeated actual blood libel that has been withdrawn by every official source because it couldn't be sustained in the face of the mildest scrutiny, and then attempted to simply wash your hands of it because you "haven't kept up." Shouldn't such a thing make you question how you're getting information? How can you expect anyone to treat you like a reasonable interlocutor? LGD fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 07:06
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LGD posted:That's fine, because like I said, the opinions of people demanding uncritical acceptance of blood libel as a precondition for conversation deserve no respect whatsoever, a stance that shouldn't be controversial. And I certainly don't have much interest in discussing a strawman thrown up as a transparent deflection. Please define how you are using the term blood libel. I find your usage really confusing. My understanding of the term is that it refers specifically to an antisemitic belief that Jews would kill Christian children for their blood to be used in religious rituals. That is also what I see in a very quick Google search.
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Oct 19, 2023 07:24
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Rubellavator posted:I can't find any indication he's quit since January. As a general rule of thumb, social media guys aren't particularly in the loop. That's doubly true during an active war; no one's giving the intern with the Twitter account hourly updates on which buildings have been destroyed. I suspect they were just given a general guideline of "if someone starts yelling about atrocities that aren't wildly implausible, use this playbook to defend, justify, and distract from the atrocities". mannerup posted:looks like Rep Omar got reprimanded by dem leadership according to this Twitter thread from her office Where does that say she got reprimanded? I don't see anything about it in that thread. Did you link to the wrong tweet?
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Oct 19, 2023 07:27
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Please define how you are using the term blood libel. I find your usage really confusing. As far as I understand poster LGB came here to speak on Blood Libel. So make a school circle and let them elaborate on this extremely important and relevant subject using high octane vocabulary. The other kids in the school debate club stand no chance against him, and I always side with the strong. Go libel! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 19, 2023 07:30
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Please define how you are using the term blood libel. I find your usage really confusing. Already did: LGD posted:If you're aware of it, it shouldn't be hard to see why I'd invoke it here - nothing else really conveys "lurid but unsubstantiated claims of child murder that are ethnically/religiously motivated, often as prelude to pogroms and/or other forms of ethnic cleansing." It is of course historically specifically antisemitic, but parallels don't get much clearer than leaders citing 40 mythical beheaded babies as a prelude to mass violence. This isn't a private definition. My use of the term is slightly provocative, but we're talking about what appears to be an entirely false and dehumanizing story where a numerologically significant number of babies were alleged to have been slain in a lurid and semi-ritualistic fashion that was widely spread and repeated by official and semi-official sources in the aftermath of an attack in an ethnic/religious conflict as that side geared up to conduct retaliatory violence (both via the state and pogroms). If you've got another reasonably succinct term that captures the essence of that I'm happy to use it instead, but "blood libel" seems to fit just fine.
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Oct 19, 2023 07:33
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Please define how you are using the term blood libel. I find your usage really confusing. I think the blood libel label is simply for ease of understanding, You could call it beheading libel. The important bit in that the killing is conveyed to be in a way that's almost alien in nature.
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Oct 19, 2023 07:33
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i fly airplanes posted:Israel gains nothing by bombing a hospital, and if they wanted to target hospitals and schools and civilians intentionally, they would have been able to wipe out the entire Gaza Strip in hours. That doesn't excuse the outcome or their actions and what happened, but if they truly had the intent of mass genocide it would have been accomplished already. I don’t think any serious people would argue that Israel actually wants to kill every Palestinian in Gaza. Not that they wouldn’t like to, but there are lines that even Israel couldn’t cross without losing all international support. And certainly killing all, or a significant portion of, Gaza’s 2 million residents would cross those lines. Everything Israel has done in the past two weeks has clearly been calculated to make conditions in Gaza as unbearable as possible. Cutting off food, water, fuel and electricity, dropping 6000 bombs (I’m sure the number is much higher now), bombing hospitals, schools, bombing people on the routes that they were told to evacuate on to avoid being bombed in their homes. “Israel is evil and is trying to kill them all” is a facile argument and one that I have mostly seen used as a straw man. The goal is obviously to make conditions so horrific that Egypt will open its border to Gazans as refugees, of course “temporarily” (they will never be let back in). Bombing a hospital absolutely helps to achieve this objective as it helps to further degrade conditions in Gaza by removing access to treatment and reinforcing that there is no area where civilians are safe. By the way if you think Israel is not currently doing genocide… might want to check with the International Criminal Court: “Article 6 of the Rome Statute provides that "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part” Luckily under the Rules Based International Order™ if you’re a US client state you can usually get away with a couple of small genocides, or maybe one medium sized.
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Oct 19, 2023 07:51
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brain smoothie posted:I don’t think any serious people would argue that Israel actually wants to kill every Palestinian in Gaza. Not that they wouldn’t like to, but there are lines that even Israel couldn’t cross without losing all international support. And certainly killing all, or a significant portion of, Gaza’s 2 million residents would cross those lines. These are valid arguments, and I thank you for presenting them, but you cannot possibly think yourself a worthy interlocuror now can you? The immediate geopolitical goals of Israel are a matter of minor import. What is important now is to discern whether leaders post on X in a way which premeditates their intent to commit mass violence (not genocide) by referencing blood libel. An exercise in futility, of course, since this notion cannot even be sustained in the face of mildest scrutiny
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Oct 19, 2023 08:02
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LGD posted:Already did: Repurposing a term that is used to describe a specific antisemitic belief that has persisted for many hundreds of years to describe something different comes across to me as confusing as best, and antisemitic at worst. If you're looking for suggestions, "beheading lies" would capture the dishonesty you're trying to convey, more clearly relate it to the incident in question, and avoid the appearance of trying to repurpose a specific existing term. It does appear to be a private definition. The links below are what I get searching for "blood libel". They aren't cherry picked, they're the first results, and they refer to the antisemitic belief. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/blood-libel-false-incendiary-claim-against-jews https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/blood-libel https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/the-origins-of-blood-libel/tnamp/ https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/blood-libel Homeless Friend posted:I think the blood libel label is simply for ease of understanding, You could call it beheading libel. The important bit in that the killing is conveyed to be in a way that's almost alien in nature. I have been accused of being hung up on definitions, but I find it far more confusing than helpful.
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Oct 19, 2023 08:26
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https://twitter.com/glcarlstrom/status/1714654108538310727 Remember Israeli bombed the Gaza Egypt border four times already and demanded Egypt let nothing in. Here's a machine translation of Bibi's stuff quote:
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Oct 19, 2023 08:47
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Repurposing a term that is used to describe a specific antisemitic belief that has persisted for many hundreds of years to describe something different comes across to me as confusing as best, and antisemitic at worst. Sorry it confused you, but given your inability to find a definition I posted on the very same page, the professed lack of subject knowledge (and incongruously zealous subject-pedantry) that has led to a reliance on top google results to tell me things I'm well aware of, and apparent inability to read the third paragraph of the first source you cited or its associated links noting the long history of far less precise uses of the term, I'm unconvinced that you're who I should be pitching my arguments toward, or the superiority of your own bland and toothless neologism (and its necessary explanations). The context of this conversation was someone repeating debunked propaganda that was circulated as part of an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign - my invocation of the historical baggage and weight of the phrase was quite deliberate. And I think we've discussed this at enough length that there shouldn't be any more possible confusion on your end about my meaning, so unless someone else is inclined to go to bat for these "beheading lies" you shouldn't need to worry about it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 19, 2023 09:14
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Aertuun posted:Very interesting article from Bellingcat, and some other information coming out from Channel 4 news (a UK news organisation with a decent reputation). This is an excellent reading of the situation and the Channel 4 video in particular is probably the most even-handed laying out of the evidence so far I've ever seen. However, I have a question about this part of your analysis: Aertuun posted:The number of dead does unfortunately seem to be (approximately) confirmed. Various western governments and other independent organisations claim to have independently verified (with various degrees of uncertainty) the number of dead and injured, and it is close to the original figures that were reported. Which sources in particular do you draw on for this claim, as they're not in the Bellingcat article or the Channel 4 vid (unless I missed them). I'd like some hard confirmation on this because people are really starting to deny the ~500 dead figure.
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Oct 19, 2023 09:41
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golden bubble posted:https://twitter.com/glcarlstrom/status/1714654108538310727 Yeah this is worthless, it lets them interfere with anything they want and just say that Egypt wasn't upholding their end. Biden does seem to have a degree of sincere care about the situation (Frankly this reads more than anything like he gave the entire Israeli cabinet a serious reaming and are giving an insincere apology like a chastised schoolboy), but he is far far too deep in the well of regarding Israel as an ally of unbreakable importance, and general liberalism, to actually apply even the least bit of the pressure America could apply. At absolute best Israel will let a trickle of aid through from Egypt and maybe, if we're incredibly lucky, cut back on any major atrocities for a day or two.
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Oct 19, 2023 09:51
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LGD posted:Sorry it confused you, but given your inability to find a definition I posted on the very same page, the professed lack of subject knowledge (and incongruously zealous subject-pedantry) that has led to a reliance on top google results to tell me things I'm well aware of, and apparent inability to read the third paragraph of the first source you cited or its associated links noting the long history of far less precise uses of the term, I'm unconvinced that you're who I should be pitching my arguments toward, or the superiority of your own bland and toothless neologism (and its necessary explanations). Are you really trying to claim that "Only some of the children were beheaded, others were shot or set on fire." is a "debunking" or are you actually trying to claim that Hamas didn't actually commit any atrocities at all?
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Oct 19, 2023 10:17
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Aertuun posted:The number of dead does unfortunately seem to be (approximately) confirmed. Various western governments and other independent organisations claim to have independently verified (with various degrees of uncertainty) the number of dead and injured, and it is close to the original figures that were reported. Autisanal Cheese posted:I have a question about this part of your analysis: I'd read different statements throughout the day from US government officials, various European politicians, and organisations such as MSF (or Doctors without Borders, as they're known in the US). Some are on Twitter, others I'd seen referenced in news reports. They all mentioned "hundreds of casualties". My understanding is that each of those different bodies organisations will have their own way of figuring out how many might have been killed or injured. Some will be more rigorous than others. Putting an exact figure on it is going to be very hard, if not impossible. Remembering back to the September 11th attacks, it took months to establish any exact number. In terms of your search for evidence; I (personally) wouldn't worry about arguing with someone who starts to quibble about the exact amount. A bomb/missile exploded in a hospital courtyard and killed sleeping families. Many of them reportedly burned to death. How many families need to have been killed before it becomes a significant number? Aertuun fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 10:19
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7c Nickel posted:Are you really trying to claim that "Only some of the children were beheaded, others were shot or set on fire." is a "debunking" or are you actually trying to claim that Hamas didn't actually commit any atrocities at all? I think it’s more to the point that the scale of Palestinian atrocities is a barely a few molecules in a drop in the ocean of horrific crimes they’ve had done to them by the Israeli State.
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Oct 19, 2023 10:31
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7c Nickel posted:Are you really trying to claim that "Only some of the children were beheaded, others were shot or set on fire." is a "debunking" or are you actually trying to claim that Hamas didn't actually commit any atrocities at all? Given that both the US and Israeli governments officially acknowledge no such thing ever happened, which required backing down from a claim Biden made in a public speech about having seen non-existant photographic evidence, I feel complete confidence in using the term "debunked" to describe that particular lie. Feel free to continue arguing with yourself, but don't expect me to respond in regards to things I haven't written. quote:When replying, respond only to what the poster said. Doing otherwise leads to posters talking past each other.
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Oct 19, 2023 10:34
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LGD posted:Given that both the US and Israeli governments officially acknowledge no such thing ever happened, which required backing down from a claim Biden made in a public speech about having seen non-existant photographic evidence, I feel complete confidence in using the term "debunked" to describe that particular lie. This is literally complete bullshit. Despite my best efforts to avoid it, I've still seen images of an infant reduced to a charcoal briquette. You don't have to deny atrocities to be opposed to what Israel is doing.
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Oct 19, 2023 10:41
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https://x.com/ghassanabusitt1/status/1714922021358886969?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Dude's a hero for just knuckling down and getting back to work after al-Ahli, but... jesus.
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Oct 19, 2023 10:49
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7c Nickel posted:This is literally complete bullshit. Despite my best efforts to avoid it, I've still seen images of an infant reduced to a charcoal briquette. You don't have to deny atrocities to be opposed to what Israel is doing. Yes, the story about the 40 beheaded babies is indeed complete bullshit. Specifically fake atrocities like that are the exact kind of complete bullshit that is used to dehumanize groups of people and produce many, many, many more actual dead babies in the real world.
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Oct 19, 2023 10:52
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LGD posted:Yes, the story about the 40 beheaded babies is indeed complete bullshit. Specifically fake atrocities like that are the exact kind of complete bullshit that is used to dehumanize groups of people and produce many, many, many more actual dead babies in the real world.
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Oct 19, 2023 10:58
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Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/ghassanabusitt1/status/1714922021358886969?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q This doctor is a hero and a saint, and I'm not trying to infer anything in particular. Sterile, medical grade vinegar is always preferred for the sterility, but vinegar and bleach are commonly used in wound care procedures (not together lol) when the infection isn't deep and you're getting regular treatment/debridement of the wound. I've seen posts from orgs about them running out of antibiotics and supplies, so this is probably all they have left, regardless of how deep the wound is. Even if supplies will now come in from Egypt, will they even be able to make it all the way north to the hospitals he's at? I can't imagine a truck convoy not being bombed by drones, assuming the roads are even clear enough. Edit- https://www.dermatologytimes.com/view/acetic-acid-and-wound-healing ummel fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 11:04
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Brucolac posted:To hopefully save some grief: You agree the massacre of Israeli citizens including infants did occur but are take issue specifically with the '40 beheaded babies' claim? Yes, that is in fact the specific, and specifically debunked, claim I've been responding to the entire time, and not whatever made up nonsense people seem to want to attribute to me because I object to people spreading genocidal propaganda. Do I think Hamas killed a bunch of Israeli citizens? Yeah, duh. They went after military targets and there are plenty of conflicting accounts about what exactly happened where (not aided by the deliberate spread of this sort of incendiary nonsense), but a lot of angry young men with guns got loose and a lot of Bad Stuff undoubtedly went down. Do I have any particular interest in playing the "justify yourself to me!" game with the sort of people who push back on my objections to the spread of genocidal propaganda? Absolutely not.
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Oct 19, 2023 11:09
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ummel posted:This doctor is a hero and a saint, and I'm not trying to infer anything in particular. Sterile, medical grade vinegar is always preferred for the sterility, but vinegar and bleach are commonly used in wound care procedures (not together lol) when the infection isn't deep and you're getting regular treatment/debridement of the wound. I've seen posts from orgs about them running out of antibiotics and supplies, so this is probably all they have left, regardless of how deep the wound is. Even if supplies will now come in from Egypt, will they even be able to make it all the way north to the hospitals he's at? I can't imagine a truck convoy not being bombed by drones, assuming the roads are even clear enough. That was exactly my point, yes. The job of doctors in Gaza is rapidly becoming impossible regardless of their enthusiasm, ingenuity and professionalism.
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Oct 19, 2023 11:13
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LGD posted:Yes, that is in fact the specific, and specifically debunked, claim I've been responding to the entire time, and not whatever made up nonsense people seem to want to attribute to me because I object to people spreading genocidal propaganda. What kind of evidence would be needed to prove the Hamas plan was always to kill every person they could except for the one to be dragged back to Gaza as trophies?
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Oct 19, 2023 11:19
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CeeJee posted:What kind of evidence would be needed to prove the Hamas plan was always to kill every person they could except for the one to be dragged back to Gaza as trophies? a psychic dream featuring a wise owl LGD posted:Yes, that is in fact the specific, and specifically debunked, claim I've been responding to the entire time, and not whatever made up nonsense people seem to want to attribute to me because I object to people spreading genocidal propaganda.
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Oct 19, 2023 11:22
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I’m not sure how a cease fire is actually beneficial to the complicated situation at hand. These are two militaries at war. Hamas wants to hide and just restart again. Hamas is unapologetically hiding in hospitals and schools and behind civilians. Always has been. Israel has made the intent to wipe out this network in northern Gaza by making it untenable for all civilians before the clean up operation. Hospitals are defying this under a shroud of righteousness, but can also be interpreted as effectively a form of defiance and protection for Hamas since they are known bad actors. You can’t claim a creed when you know your actions are delaying what the other party has made clear is an inevitable. ‘Do no harm’ doesn’t mean knowingly put hundreds people at exponential risk to have a slight increased chance save a couple. The WHO can put out statements all they want, but they aren’t helping the situation. Israel clearly wants civilians gone so they can access the hidden networks and shoot anything that moves on sight. Hamas is doubling down on taking advantage of the situation at the expense of Palestinians. The difference between other wars and this one is the overt willingness to use it’s own citizens as fodder to advance the war effort that Hamas employs. Armies that actually defend the will of the people wouldn’t stoop that low on such a large scale. Now whether Israel knowingly let the yon kippur attack ‘surprise’ them and used their own citizens as fodder to reignite the conflict and this not be a story of incompetence is a whole other conspiracy chat. But that’s attributing incompetence to covert malice, which is rarely true. Hamas using citizens as shields is a strategy, not incompetence, hence the simpler argument to make.
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Oct 19, 2023 11:24
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:I’m not sure how a cease fire is actually beneficial to the complicated situation at hand. These are two militaries at war. One modern military, one entrenched street gang.
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Oct 19, 2023 11:34
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Logically then, Israel needs to kill all the Palestinians to make sure they get Hamas, is what I'm getting from that. I somehow doubt every hospital and school is knowingly harboring Hamas and MSF and the UN are in on it and Israel magically knows. That Hamas has and does do that does not mean they can just blow up every ambulance because there could be hamas there. I feel like if they really know where Hamas is, by this point, with what must certainly be over 8000 bombs, Hamas should be pretty well disabled, but they're not, which means they actually have not much of an idea or don't really care one way or another. A cease fire could allow for the civilians to not just all die of lack of water in the coming weeks, and maybe Israel to actually figure out where Hamas is instead of just leveling everything. They can go in and establish safe zones for civilians and then yes there will be urban warfare but then they could not level every building as was their stated goal at the onset. If you do that and you don't kill everyone*, you're guaranteeing another hamas. A ceasefire would also make it painfully obvious where Hamas is as they launch their crappy rocket attacks. *Of course, this is actually the goal. Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 11:37
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Nail Rat posted:Logically then, Israel needs to kill all the Palestinians to make sure they get Hamas, is what I'm getting from that. No, there are underground networks they can’t really get to without land invasion. Getting the civilians out is the primer to going in there to get to the networks and dismantle this. Civilians staying behind in hospital parking lots is only delaying this.
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Oct 19, 2023 11:48
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i fly airplanes posted:Israel gains nothing by bombing a hospital,
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Oct 19, 2023 11:50
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quote:No, there are underground networks they can’t really get to without land invasion. Getting the civilians out is the primer to going in there to get to the networks and dismantle this. Where are they supposed to go? Egypt won't let them in and if they DO, Israel will *never* let them back in. They'll have been gifted a decades long goal immediately. Even the foreign national citizens like 500-600 Americans are just piled up at the rafah border, hoping Israel doesn't decide to bomb them and go "it was a Hamas rocket ."
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Oct 19, 2023 11:52
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:No, there are underground networks they can’t really get to without land invasion. Getting the civilians out is the primer to going in there to get to the networks and dismantle this. Do they have to blow up the tunnels from the inside out? Is there no way to somehow detect these through other means then drop some kind of bunker buster bomb? Or are they that good of tunnels? Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 12:01 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 11:52
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:I’m not sure how a cease fire is actually beneficial to the complicated situation at hand. These are two militaries at war. Hamas wants to hide and just restart again. Yeah man, why don't they just up and move with all their equipment and medical supplies when there's no electricity or water. And *obviously* if they can't evict Hamas from their location with their own armed forces then the simplest explanation is that they are all willing foot soldiers for the Hamas "military".
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Oct 19, 2023 11:53
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:No, there are underground networks they can’t really get to without land invasion. Getting the civilians out is the primer to going in there to get to the networks and dismantle this. gently caress you you grotesque fascist bootlick. You are blaming Civillians sheltering in a hospital because their homes are being bombed, everywhere else is being bombed and they have no actual escape routes because those are also all being bombed for being the reason this is continuing. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 19, 2023 11:54
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