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LividLiquid posted:
drat he was so good in that show. It seemed like sometimes he was the only one who "got" what being a doll was supposed to be. Maybe Amy Acker as well, if I'm going to be spoiling a show I say no one should go back to, unless you just watch the finale of season 1, which wrapped up stuff much better than anything season 2 tried. And I guess Severance Spoilers here too: Dichen Lachman came in with good doll experience
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Oct 15, 2023 22:59
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I admittedly am still sore at Dollhouse beyond everything else because The Sarah Connor Chronicles got the axe so it could stick around.
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Oct 16, 2023 02:14
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LividLiquid posted:She actually held her own opposite Enver Gjokaj in Dollhouse as he was blowing everybody off the screen, so she'll always have my respect. She really didn't. And not only couldn't she keep up with Gjokaj, everyone in the cast outperformed her.
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Oct 16, 2023 05:00
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Dawgstar posted:I admittedly am still sore at Dollhouse beyond everything else because The Sarah Connor Chronicles got the axe so it could stick around.
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Oct 16, 2023 05:36
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I watched dollhouse again recently and it's a contemporary concept (Westworld and severance come to mind, potentially even Wanda vision) let down by the era of production it was made and the teen treatment it was made under. That's not too say it holds a candle to those shows, or even that Joss could have taken it there in perfect circumstances, just that it's sad it couldn't meet it's own potential
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Oct 16, 2023 05:37
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I don't think Dushku was particularly weak on Dollhouse (she's probably not even the weakest member of the cast tbh). She's fine for what the job demands, i.e. playing someone whose strong personality preventa them from fully disappearing into the roles given her. She's not nearly as good as Gjokai, sure, but they're also being asked to do fundamentally different things. Also Gjokai is nowhere near as good as Olivia Williams. She acted everyone off the screen. G-Spot Run posted:I watched dollhouse again recently and it's a contemporary concept (Westworld and severance come to mind, potentially even Wanda vision) let down by the era of production it was made and the teen treatment it was made under. That's not too say it holds a candle to those shows, or even that Joss could have taken it there in perfect circumstances, just that it's sad it couldn't meet it's own potential The material about extreme body (co)modification and Hollywood satire also parallels The Boys, with the second season showrunners going on to do the same job on Gen V. Open Source Idiom fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Oct 16, 2023 |
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Oct 16, 2023 06:30
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Alhazred posted:She really didn't. And not only couldn't she keep up with Gjokaj, everyone in the cast outperformed her. To be fair, most actors would have been overshadowed by the supporting cast of Dollhouse, but Dushku was definitely a poor choice for the role.
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Oct 16, 2023 07:25
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Oasx posted:To be fair, most actors would have been overshadowed by the supporting cast of Dollhouse, but Dushku was definitely a poor choice for the role. If I remember correctly Dushku was actually the one who had a contract with Fox and approached Whedon to develop a show for her, so it was more a case of the concept being a poor fit for her.
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Oct 16, 2023 16:11
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In season 6 now and I forgot how stupid and heavy-handed the "Willow getting literally high on magic" is. Makes Beer Bad look subtle. Also S6 Willow doesn't deserve Tara. She was right to dump her gaslighting, abusive rear end.
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Oct 17, 2023 02:25
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I get doing an arc that brings somebody getting hooked on drugs and abusing their partner down to the metaphorical level. That's the show's stock and trade. Make high school problems into demons and such. My issue is that it the metaphors were all so loving literal.
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Oct 17, 2023 02:33
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I'm curious to find out what fans consider "bad" episodes in Seasons 1 through 3. About halfway done with S3 and none come to mind, though admittedly the show is so bingeworthy and easy to watch that many things blur together. I bring this up after watching the episode with Buffy's 18th birthday where Giles injects her with weakening potion (without her knowledge!) and she has to use her wits to defeat a monster. This tradition with the Council seems incredibly stupid and it goes poorly, I mean, it is so ridiculous of course it would. I still liked the episode despite this set up.
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Oct 19, 2023 14:37
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Mokelumne Trekka posted:I'm curious to find out what fans consider "bad" episodes in Seasons 1 through 3. About halfway done with S3 and none come to mind, though admittedly the show is so bingeworthy and easy to watch that many things blur together. Are you asking about general fan consensus or what goons itt think are the "bad" episodes?
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Oct 19, 2023 14:45
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I think the episodes generally regarded as the worst are usually ones that don't advance the main plot AND have a very lame monster, usually early in the season. It's fine if the episode doesn't have anything to do with the main plot if they have a really cool core concept, monster, particularly fun scenes with the main cast, etc. Season 3 I can't think of one that's truly bad myself, I'd probably consider it the most solid season with no stinkers. They do imply the vampire they picked for the test for Buffy just happened to be a vampire who was also insane and smart, usually it is just a normal goon vampire which, if you know the weaknesses, is not a completely impossible test for someone with normal human levels of power, just very difficult especially if the person is used to being super strong and doesn't know why they aren't anymore. It is a pretty dumb test in general but yeah the council are massive shits, so that's just text.
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Oct 19, 2023 14:54
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Mokelumne Trekka posted:I'm curious to find out what fans consider "bad" episodes in Seasons 1 through 3. About halfway done with S3 and none come to mind, though admittedly the show is so bingeworthy and easy to watch that many things blur together. i think the bad eps in S2 are considered to be like: bad eggs, go fish, and maybe a couple of the early stand alones like inca mummy girl or some assembly required. i basically agree those episodes aren't winners in the same way some of the others are but i like some of the standalones like reptile boy or ted more than i like some arc episodes like what's my line pt1+2 which i think is kinda weak. in s3 there's less of a bad episodes perception but there are a few and they are near the start of the season - dead man's party, beauty and the beasts and homecoming. although i actually like the homecoming episode as goofy fun, i think people just don't like buffy and cordelia fighting in that one cos it feels like a character regression which i guess it is for both. helpless isn't considered a bad episode, but the betrayal of giles injecting buffy like that is a bit crazy cos i don't believe he would do that at all even if he does try to make up for it in the same episode. when i was younger, i was all about the arc episodes in both shows but nowadays i appreciate stand alones a lot more.
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Oct 19, 2023 14:56
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Open Source Idiom posted:Are you asking about general fan consensus or what goons itt think are the "bad" episodes? Both is fine by me!
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Oct 19, 2023 15:00
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Also I gotta say I love the episodes that put a spin on the regular character dynamics, like the one with the old people turning into juvenile delinquents. Also the alt timeline with the S1 villain becoming powerful. I guess those would be considered standalones
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Oct 19, 2023 15:05
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roomtone posted:i think the bad eps in S2 are considered to be like: bad eggs, go fish, and maybe a couple of the early stand alones like inca mummy girl or some assembly required. I think people like Homecoming! I'd add Killed By Death in S2. S1's kind of a different beast, but I think The Pack and I Robot You Jane stand out. Gingerbread kinda sucks too. Mokelumne Trekka posted:Also I gotta say I love the episodes that put a spin on the regular character dynamics, like the one with the old people turning into juvenile delinquents. Also the alt timeline with the S1 villain becoming powerful. Those are two of the most beloved eps in the series.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:09
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Mokelumne Trekka posted:I'm curious to find out what fans consider "bad" episodes in Seasons 1 through 3. About halfway done with S3 and none come to mind, though admittedly the show is so bingeworthy and easy to watch that many things blur together. It's implied the Council does this to get rid of Slayers they deem unworthy. It's usually that they aren't smart enough to kill a vampire without powers, but in Buffy's case, it's because she's insubordinate with what the Council wants. She runs away from her duties after the events before episode 1, the movie events, where she burns down the school gym and then leaves the city for Sunnydale. It also resulted in the death of her first Watcher. Not to mention, Giles probably reports to the Council that she doesn't really listen to him and refuses the study the huge book in the pilot, Vampyr. Still doesn't explain why Faith never did it. <_<
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Oct 19, 2023 15:11
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Pan Dulce posted:Still doesn't explain why Faith never did it. <_< When would she have done it? When she was in a coma, or when she was in prison?
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Oct 19, 2023 15:12
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Pinterest Mom posted:When would she have done it? When she was in a coma, or when she was in prison? True. I always assumed, based on her mannerisms, the fact that she doesn't go to school anymore, and her looks, that Faith was older than Buffy. Do they ever say when she was born? It's probably what you said though.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:14
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Pan Dulce posted:True. I always assumed, based on her mannerisms, the fact that she doesn't go to school anymore, and her looks, that Faith was older than Buffy. Do they ever say when she was born? Not in the show, no. She might be older than Buffy. It's possible that she turned 18 sometime after her first Watcher died and then when Wesley finally shows up there's no way they're going through with the test, but  .
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Oct 19, 2023 15:16
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Mokelumne Trekka posted:Also I gotta say I love the episodes that put a spin on the regular character dynamics, like the one with the old people turning into juvenile delinquents. Also the alt timeline with the S1 villain becoming powerful. It's never outright stated but I get the vibe that Buffy defeating the Master in Season 1 was a huge fluke, in that he's probably the most dangerous big bad she faces until Glory (ok, I guess Angelus wanted to literally send the world to hell, but the Master wanted to do vampire capitalism) and she's at the beginning of her career. So I always love seeing him again. roomtone posted:i think the bad eps in S2 are considered to be like: bad eggs, go fish, and maybe a couple of the early stand alones like inca mummy girl or some assembly required. For me, the stand-alones only become an issue when you have like 2 or 3 of them of similar vibes back to back. IIRC you run into that a couple of times in Season 2, like there's two monsters in a Bride of Frankenstein situation in a row or two demonic possession episodes in a row. The back half of that season is so strong though it doesn't really matter.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:16
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Rochallor posted:It's never outright stated but I get the vibe that Buffy defeating the Master in Season 1 was a huge fluke, in that he's probably the most dangerous big bad she faces until Glory (ok, I guess Angelus wanted to literally send the world to hell, but the Master wanted to do vampire capitalism) and she's at the beginning of her career. So I always love seeing him again. It's never explained how she won, either. She just got like a powerup from dying or something. But yeah, standard vamp lore is age = more power, and The Master is the oldest vampire in the series. Speaking of Faith, Kakistos in S3 might have lasted only one ep but he was loving up both Buffy and Faith and The Master would be even stronger than him. And Angelus lost decisively to Buffy twice in S2. I always loved this fight. In terms of action it's not the best but in the context of the episode and all the raw emotion going on, it's so perfect. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4cF3klWymw&t=86s
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Oct 19, 2023 15:27
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I think the Master was let down just by a lack of budget for a big setpiece fight with him, and the show not totally having figured out its lore yet, cos he goes down very easily despite supposedly having all kinds of extra vampire powers beyond the usual. Then later on you get special vampires like Kakistos who at least seems threatening and needs two slayers to kill, or then Dracula having all his magical vampire abilities. I think giving Buffy some gradual power ups beyond being low-grade superhero strong and healing would've been good, too. They explore this idea occasionally but it never comes into focus. It just ends up like, whatever the threat is, Buffy's strength level adapts to be in the same ballpark than it whether that's a standard vampire like Angelus or a god like Glory who is a super strong god but can be drained a bit and then hit with a big hammer that Buffy can lift easily but Spike can't even though he's supposed to be a threat to Buffy when they fight. I wouldn't have been against bringing the Master back as the S7 villain in a master rises again kind of thing and actually let him be the threat he should've been. Would've been nice to refocus on a vampire to bookend the series. But they had to go super big with the concept and flubbed. roomtone fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 15:32
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Huh, never really thought the Master was presented as a particularly great threat myself, he reads as your classic manipulator type who folds the instant he actually has to fight to me. The threat he presented in the finale of S1 was mainly summoning the old ones back from the hellmouth. He has the prophecy that Buffy will come to him and die, he knows that that happening will allow him to walk free so he thinks that's all good, it's classic "relying on prophecies will gently caress you over" stuff that they go on to play with many more times over the course of Buffy and Angel. In any case, in their actual confrontation he just does the hypnosis thing and bites Buffy, leaves her for dead, when she shows up alive later, on the roof, he's clearly thrown cause that's absolutely not what he's expecting. Then she wins because she leans into her style rather than what the prophecy says or the "proper" way of confronting him, she takes the piss out of him, kicks the poo poo out of him whiles he's confused and getting to grips with actually physically having to do stuff again and then throws him through the skylight. That seemed to be the subtext to me at least. There's also the fact that they were limited to what they could do in the early days of the show of course, if it'd happened later it'd probably have been more like the fight she has with some of the monsters in latter seasons, more acrobatic and such. It's pretty consistently presented as well imo, like in an episode of Angel (putting this in spoilers cause someone is watching stuff, can't really not reveal that it happens in Angel outside of a spoiler though) they do a flashback and show Darla bringing Angel back to him in a very "meet my father" kinda thing and Angel just relentlessly poo poo talks him to his face and then he and Darla step out and the Master is just like "oooh fine let them go, it won't last" rather than just killing him or whatever, which is what you'd expect from a vampire in his own lair.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:44
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Right, the Master is portrayed as canny and cautious and conservative, and that helps him survive, but as far as we know, across several hundreds of years, he never actually does anything except survive and create a small cult of a handful of people who hide in the sewers. The scenario in The Wish is a result of his gang opening the Hellmouth during The Harvest, but any idiot can open the Hellmouth.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:51
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In terms of early show episodes I don't like, I'm not a fan of Teacher's Pet or Inca Mummy Girl. Beauty And The Beasts is pretty poo poo too. Mostly just the sort of uninspired episodes, though even the worst of them have good qualities. I'm not against standalones though, far from it. Killed By Death, Ted, they're both awesome, as are a bunch of others. thebardyspoon posted:In any case, in their actual confrontation he just does the hypnosis thing and bites Buffy, leaves her for dead, when she shows up alive later, on the roof, he's clearly thrown cause that's absolutely not what he's expecting. Then she wins because she leans into her style rather than what the prophecy says or the "proper" way of confronting him, she takes the piss out of him, kicks the poo poo out of him whiles he's confused and getting to grips with actually physically having to do stuff again and then throws him through the skylight. That seemed to be the subtext to me at least. Yeah, this has always been my read as well.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:53
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It makes sense that he can hypnotize her when he's basically got a grip on her mind already what with her being scared to die and "knowing" she will. Once she's faced that fear and come back stronger, he doesn't hold the same kind of power over her.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:57
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I would say that The Pack, The Puppet show and Prophecy Girl are the standouts in season 1, with Puppet Show being the best.
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Oct 19, 2023 16:19
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one of the things seperating Buffy from the slayers that came before her is her friends and family, a solid connection to the regular human world that other slayers never had. She beats the master because Xander was there to revive her, the alt-universe Buffy is defeated because she doesn't have a Xander.
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Oct 19, 2023 16:20
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break-up breakdown posted:one of the things seperating Buffy from the slayers that came before her is her friends and family, a solid connection to the regular human world that other slayers never had. She beats the master because Xander was there to revive her, the alt-universe Buffy is defeated because she doesn't have a Xander. Apparently, Cleveland sucks, since she can't make any friends there.
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Oct 19, 2023 16:26
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Huh did not know this was coming.  side_burned fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 16:52
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Oasx posted:I would say that The Pack, The Puppet show and Prophecy Girl are the standouts in season 1, with Puppet Show being the best. Yeah, same. The Puppet Show might be one of the best stand alone hours of genre TV ever made. Top ten easily.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:42
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Mokelumne Trekka posted:I'm curious to find out what fans consider "bad" episodes in Seasons 1 through 3. About halfway done with S3 and none come to mind, though admittedly the show is so bingeworthy and easy to watch that many things blur together. I'm not huge Buffy fan or anything, but like others have said "The Watchers are a gang of incompetent misogynists" is text. The stupid test that's more than likely to get people killed is just another example of it.
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Oct 19, 2023 20:10
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Agent Rush posted:I'm not huge Buffy fan or anything, but like others have said "The Watchers are a gang of incompetent misogynists" is text. The stupid test that's more than likely to get people killed is just another example of it. It's a shame because the guy who plays the head of the Watchers Qunetin Travers has the most awesome voice. He cans till be bad but how about just a smidge of competency? Which just makes the "let's be awesome - oops I'm dead" thing in Season 7 extra disappointing)
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Oct 19, 2023 20:30
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Mokelumne Trekka posted:I'm curious to find out what fans consider "bad" episodes in Seasons 1 through 3. About halfway done with S3 and none come to mind, though admittedly the show is so bingeworthy and easy to watch that many things blur together. https://liztellsfrank.com/2019/12/03/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-angel-the-unified-skip-it-watch-it-guide/ This is one person's list, which is way harsher than anyone in here would want to be, but does have some reasoning.
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Oct 19, 2023 20:31
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sebmojo posted:https://liztellsfrank.com/2019/12/03/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-angel-the-unified-skip-it-watch-it-guide/ "Buffy 4×04. “Fear, Itself”: Skip it." Oof that's a hot take.
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Oct 20, 2023 00:12
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Following this skip guide: Skip It
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Oct 20, 2023 00:36
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sebmojo posted:https://liztellsfrank.com/2019/12/03/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-angel-the-unified-skip-it-watch-it-guide/ I'm just picking other hit 90s shows I've seen, but Twin Peaks and The X-Files absolutely need a watch-it or skip-it guide. so far Buffy is shockingly consistently good, so skipping episodes would be like skipping good episodes over the very good episodes. at least for S1-S3. should be interesting to see how long that remains, from my perspective even that person's list had only four skips for S1, so they seem reasonable enough (I even enjoyed the robot and egg episodes - it's goofy schlock that isn't boring, at least the first time)
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Oct 20, 2023 00:48
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quote:“Revelations”: Skip it. Not one of the season’s best, and relatively unimportant. Wtf, relatively unimportant? Setting in motion Faith's entire arc and everyone learning Angel is alive is unimportant?
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Oct 20, 2023 01:13
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