(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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Zodium posted:i've been out of country visiting with extended family this week, and got caught up sitting in between some younger family who were discussing economics. it was a typical heated discussion that was essentially about government against free market, with one side advancing the argument that today's problems are caused by crony capitalism, and the other side advancing that they are caused by a lack of regulation. using a simple marxist thought experiment, I was able to calmly show how, over time, a competitive capitalist market necessarily, through competition alone, eliminates competition, and then evolves into political control and imperialism, and thus that both sides were simply touching different parts of the same elephant. this not only brought peace to the dinner table, but led to a couple of them approaching me afterwards to say that what I had explained seemed "on a whole other level" from what they had been exposed to on social media and asked to stay in touch. I'm interested in the thought experiment, what was it?
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Oct 18, 2023 01:45
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bobmarleysghost posted:I'm interested in the thought experiment, what was it? same
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Oct 18, 2023 02:29
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bobmarleysghost posted:I'm interested in the thought experiment, what was it? imagine four capitalists on the edge of a cliff...
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Oct 18, 2023 02:41
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Are they edging?
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Oct 18, 2023 02:56
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the example is tyson chicken and its control of arkansas and chicken and through that america, through america the world
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Oct 18, 2023 05:05
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i say swears online posted:really good post, and this part is something i hadn't really put much thought into before. would this be someone like a liquor store employee on a poor side of town? or a debt collector, or someone that hawks reverse mortgages? lumpenprole = criminals, football hooligans etc.
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Oct 18, 2023 06:39
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stumblebum posted:a small conjecture i want to throw out there: That does track depending on how much you agree with the principle of labor as a definer of the self. Working an industrial line means disciplined labor, which is far more clear-cut than being a gig-economy worker. crepeface posted:in the discussion of wretched of the earth, the RevLeft pod notes how similar Fanon's conclusions are to Mao's re: the lumpen and they wonder if one influenced the other or if they came to the same conclusions independently. Fanon walked through the anticolonial circles of France in the 50s, which got him into communism. IIRC Mao's writings spread there through French Indochina, so I think it's plausible he read at least a bit. Tsitsikovas posted:Is there any sources you can list that goes into black panther thought, especially along these lines? I've read in this thread that they did some of the best and most recent US class analysis and I've always been interested. Specific books/essays or writers? Hey, thank you, much appreciated  I don't have any specific references of books by them or about them on theory; personally I have read articles by Fred Hampton, Huey P. Newton and of course, Kwame Ture (Stokely Carmichael). AFAIK, Kwame had a real theoretician's bent and it shows on his talking, anything I came across of his was very good.
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Oct 18, 2023 17:14
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Kwame Ture's lecture at Howard is a no-poo poo literal every-year-watch. in one hour he delivers the basic foundations of Black liberation though revolutionary socialist thought https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhRujWQy5Tk
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Oct 18, 2023 17:25
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https://unityroom.com/games/sorengame
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Oct 19, 2023 01:11
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hmm
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Oct 19, 2023 02:00
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mila kunis posted:lumpenprole = criminals, football hooligans etc. is football hooliganism a profession? i figured all those guys have boring salaried jobs
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Oct 19, 2023 03:59
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someone's gotta do it
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Oct 19, 2023 04:00
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does the flintstones' ironing board have class consciousness
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Oct 19, 2023 04:03
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i say swears online posted:does the flintstones' ironing board have class consciousness Marx's thoughts on the Dino Question are best left in the stone age.
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Oct 19, 2023 04:08
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all the flintstone animalpliances going on strike then being replaced by scab animalpliances that are incapable of performing the tasks required of them
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Oct 19, 2023 04:11
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i say swears online posted:is football hooliganism a profession? i figured all those guys have boring salaried jobs "is a lumpenprole job a profession?" - you fool! for real though lumpenproletariat as marx defined it is probably overly influence by spending too much time in london among the anglos. grouping itinerant workers, non-workers, and all the various illegal and shades of gray trades together was dumb and doesnt make sense from either a relation to production or level of consciousness. surplus army of labor potential class including people who cannot work, people who can work but don't have it, and people who work or own but just not technically legally, displaced peasants, or recently hosed petit-bourg is dumb. should have just admitted he didn't want to get into the weeds with it mao's analysis of the classes in chinese society (https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-1/mswv1_1.htm) had a definition and assessment that actually makes sense for the conditions then. the black panther party definition and analysis also makes sense trying to fit marx's definition of lumpenproletariat on anything after 1934 is going to yield goofy results
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Oct 19, 2023 04:51
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i say swears online posted:is football hooliganism a profession? i figured all those guys have boring salaried jobs some are cops or troops. hooligans are all nazis
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Oct 19, 2023 06:31
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This text reminds me of a useful tidbit when discussing some aspects of the precariat. It's far better to consider the category of semi-proleterian than the category of lumpen when discussing it, and ties into what dgcf's said about it. In the section about semi-proleterians: quote:The shop assistants are employees of shops and stores, supporting their families on meagre pay and getting an increase perhaps only once in several years while prices rise every year. If by chance you get into intimate conversation with them, they invariably pour out their endless grievances. service sector dot tee ex tee When it comes to gig economy, again, day laborers were always a thing (and when Mao is talking about coolies in the proleterian section, that's what he's talking about, with a dash of intentured servitude on top), and are considered proleterian, not even needing the "semi" part. The whole point of the "independent contractor" bullshit is to conceal this fact.
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Oct 19, 2023 10:40
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I don't "get" fictitious capital. Most brain bending segment of capital so far for me.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:22
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In Training posted:I don't "get" fictitious capital. Most brain bending segment of capital so far for me. isnt that supposed to be stocks and crap?
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Oct 19, 2023 17:31
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fart simpson posted:isnt that supposed to be stocks and crap? Yeah it's about bankers notes & money capital used for speculation. But I struggle with the material basis of it in the way Marx explains in vol. 3 part 5. But I'm still reading. I think I get the broad strokes but idk it's so bizarre that after the methodological step by step process picking apart every way that capital creates surplus value through the general social reproduction process, bankers show up and go LOL now we have 5x that value bc ?????? Stay mad.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:35
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isnt fictitious capital just financialized bullshit? also the us/canadian housing as an investment that always increases thing? maybe the sticking point is how much fictitious capital there is?
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Oct 19, 2023 18:06
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In Training posted:I don't "get" fictitious capital. Most brain bending segment of capital so far for me. Capital, Vol. III, Part V -- Division of Profit into Interest and Profit of Enterprise. Interest-Bearing Capital posted:
It can be a bit of a curveball because Marx dismantles the common-sense idea we have of credit and finance and reassembles it methodically through theory. Fictitious capital is related to stocks and poo poo, but it isn't that specifically. Fictitious capital is better understood as a claim of guarantee of capital, which as such can be commodified. Bonds, stocks, notes, titles, securities and everything else are manifestations of fictitious capital. It's through the operation of fictitious capital that banks ultimately work: they take money and promise back to their investor that amount, plus interest. To make that interest happen, it must become capital. The bank, sitting on that deposit, makes a letter of credit for three different clients around the same value that the first guy deposited, let's say a million: in loaning out for the other clients, it has provided three claims of that same value. So there three million loaned out, each million based on the bank stating through something that "I have a million here; this thing right here asserts that." Note the critical part of it being a claim. At no point in time it will be a literal equivalence to the actual money value in the bank - this is the basis of leveraging, the basic mechanism of financial capitalism. It's a fundamental necessity for the expansion of capital, because it allows to operate the ideas of future and potential values. The bank agrees to provide a two million loan and increase its leveraging to a riskier level because the potential returns for that business look very good: confidence, in other words. As the economy expands and does well, confidence increases, putting out more and more fictitious capital; because capital has to expand, that difference between fictitious capital and real capital increases. Those ideas alone allow us to figure out the business cycle. The cool part for Marxists, however (and if you are going through Capital this is likely to happen), is that this comes after a whole construction of concepts. What is required to sustain fictitious capital? Surplus-value. Or, in other words, as more financialized the economy is, the more workers of that society have to be exploited to "catch up" with leveraging. That's why contraction becomes inevitable: either something fails in the investor end (can't pay the loans, business fails, an operation went wrong) and/or with the proletariat (wages become insufficient to pay rent and credit costs).
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Oct 19, 2023 18:29
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HiroProtagonist posted:Kwame Ture's lecture at Howard is a no-poo poo literal every-year-watch. in one hour he delivers the basic foundations of Black liberation though revolutionary socialist thought Kwame is so god drat good. I havent seen this lecture yet, thanks for the link. I did a couple of years ago watch the one he delivered in the early 90s in a university in...florida I think. I remember it being excellent, particularly for its time and place. A perfect counter to end of history nonsense being promulgated around that same time. e. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN8oq7lF9FA this one dead gay comedy forums posted:I don't have any specific references of books by them or about them on theory; personally I have read articles by Fred Hampton, Huey P. Newton and of course, Kwame Ture (Stokely Carmichael). AFAIK, Kwame had a real theoretician's bent and it shows on his talking, anything I came across of his was very good. Time to download any and all pdfs from marxists dot org from hampton and newton then!
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Oct 19, 2023 18:38
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would it be accurate to suggest that fictitious capital could instead be described as speculative capital i.e. that it is the commodification of a guarantee of future capital growth?
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Oct 19, 2023 18:43
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In Training posted:Yeah it's about bankers notes & money capital used for speculation. But I struggle with the material basis of it in the way Marx explains in vol. 3 part 5. But I'm still reading. I think I get the broad strokes but idk it's so bizarre that after the methodological step by step process picking apart every way that capital creates surplus value through the general social reproduction process, bankers show up and go LOL now we have 5x that value bc ?????? Stay mad. fictitious capital is just claims to streams of surplus value created by actual capital
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Oct 19, 2023 19:39
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Not quite on topic, but I figured that if anyone has the link to it, it would be someone in this thread. I might be misremembering details, but there was an article some goons linked to a while back, not in this thread, about the base of support for the German strasserites and how the closest comparison in USA to the actual strasserite ideology as it existed then would be in silicon valley liberalism. I'd like to read it again, because while I remember the article having a number of issues, certain recent events made me remember it, and I'd like to re-evaluate it.
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Oct 20, 2023 10:37
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HiroProtagonist posted:Kwame Ture's lecture at Howard is a no-poo poo literal every-year-watch. in one hour he delivers the basic foundations of Black liberation though revolutionary socialist thought I'm just 10 minutes into this and holy poo poo Kwame is just so god drat smart and principled. Diamat is the way. e. he just got asked about racism as it relates to his analysis up to that point, and Kwame said its more than anything else irrational. I'm also reading Black Skin White Masks and came across this passage yesterday. Franz Fanon, ch 2 posted:As we have said, there are negrophobes. Moreover, it’s not the hatred of the black man that drives them; they don’t have the guts. Hatred is not a given; it is a struggle to acquire hatred, which has to be dragged into being, clashing with acknowledged guilt complexes. Hatred cries out to exist, and he who hates must prove his hatred through action and the appropriate behavior. In a sense he has to embody hatred. This is why the Americans have replaced lynching by discrimination. Each side keeps to his own. So we are not surprised that in the cities of (French?) sub-Saharan Africa there is a European district. to add, this is some of the hands down best lit crit, social crit, psychoanalysis ive ever read. Can't wait to get to Wretched. Tsitsikovas has issued a correction as of 16:10 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 15:49
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my dad posted:This text reminds me of a useful tidbit when discussing some aspects of the precariat. It's far better to consider the category of semi-proleterian than the category of lumpen when discussing it, and ties into what dgcf's said about it. the reason gig workers are more lumpen than proletarian is that they have no organic way of interacting with each other, even outside of the workplace. an uber driver may never actually interact with another uber driver outside of a client/patron relationship, which is obviously not conductive to building solidarity or organisation. a day labourer or even a coolie is something very different - the coolie will generally live and work with the other coolies. the lumpenised gig worker just... doesn't.
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Oct 20, 2023 23:08
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lol
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Oct 20, 2023 23:10
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recall a some years ago where someone tried to organise an uber driver's strike, and the response by uber was just to offer surge prices - discipline collapsed immediately, and people actually voiced support for the people effectively scabbing because they had difficult economical situations or whatever. attempting to organise these sectors of workers is very difficult outside of truly exceptional circumstances, because there's no organic basis for such organisation. the service sector is clearly much more fruitful ground.
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Oct 20, 2023 23:12
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Tsitsikovas posted:I'm just 10 minutes into this and holy poo poo Kwame is just so god drat smart and principled. Diamat is the way. and since the thread cop is on indefinite time-out, you can post passages from it without fear of retaliatory probes (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 20, 2023 23:22
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V. Illych L. posted:recall a some years ago where someone tried to organise an uber driver's strike, and the response by uber was just to offer surge prices - discipline collapsed immediately, and people actually voiced support for the people effectively scabbing because they had difficult economical situations or whatever. attempting to organise these sectors of workers is very difficult outside of truly exceptional circumstances, because there's no organic basis for such organisation. the service sector is clearly much more fruitful ground.
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Oct 20, 2023 23:23
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Has there ever been discussion about the different approaches to revolutionary strategy that would have to be applied in a context of the revolution happening in a nuclear-armed power versus a non-nuclear power? What would have to happen, etc. Because it strikes me as obvious that priorities and strategy would be extremely different if a revolution were to happen in a nation in the imperial core versus one in the periphery. For example, the USA is the lynchpin of global capitalism in a way that Russia, China, Cuba, Vietnam, etc. were not at the time of their revolutions. It has the ability to project power on a global scale, which is a tremendously different context than when any previous socialist revolution happened. For one thing, a revolution happening in the USA would pose an extremely high risk, imo, of becoming a nuclear war. Obviously the first priority of any revolutionary government then should be to secure that country's nuclear arsenal. I'd like to see if anyone had written extensively on this particular intersection between revolutionary strategy and nuclear strategy.
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Oct 21, 2023 00:44
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V. Illych L. posted:the reason gig workers are more lumpen than proletarian is that they have no organic way of interacting with each other, even outside of the workplace. an uber driver may never actually interact with another uber driver outside of a client/patron relationship, which is obviously not conductive to building solidarity or organisation. a day labourer or even a coolie is something very different - the coolie will generally live and work with the other coolies. the lumpenised gig worker just... doesn't. the context and consciousness are no doubt quite different, and there was a sort of foundation in a useless union, but the FASH were able to overcome some of these barriers: https://www.thetruckersreport.com/truckingindustryforum/threads/how-8-men-took-on-us-steel.40723/ im walking home rn so might post later
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Oct 21, 2023 03:25
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The Voice of Labor posted:and since the thread cop is on indefinite time-out, you can post passages from it without fear of retaliatory probes I'm confused and dont follow sa lore but is posting passages a bad thing now? Or is this just an anti-fanon thing?
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Oct 21, 2023 06:25
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Tsitsikovas posted:I'm confused and dont follow sa lore but is posting passages a bad thing now? Or is this just an anti-fanon thing? Former dear leader and now disgraced traitor croup considered it bourgeoisie.
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Oct 21, 2023 13:00
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Who will make the secret speech to begin decroupification
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Oct 21, 2023 13:11
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yep. everyone brave enough for a thread free from authoritarian shackles please step forward
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Oct 21, 2023 13:15
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| # ? May 20, 2024 19:06 |
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"I know that after my banning a pile of shitposts will be heaped on my grave, but the winds of history will sooner or later sweep it away without mercy." -croup coughfield
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Oct 21, 2023 13:36
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