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Jen heir rick posted:Got any proof? Or do you just want to debate and discuss a rumor? Well, I don't consider a BBC interview with an Israeli spokesman to be a rumor, but I'm hoping someone else either heard it that wasn't driving or is aware of it.
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Oct 19, 2023 22:30
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daslog posted:Well, I don't consider a BBC interview with an Israeli spokesman to be a rumor, but I'm hoping someone else either heard it that wasn't driving or is aware of it. Israeli officials lie like it's a bodily function. The last page was discussing one of them.
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Oct 19, 2023 22:31
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Homeless Friend posted:In a forum that has rules regarding only reading the headline, I think we have already reach a consesus that headlines help shape narratives. Here is beloved political commentator Chris Cillizza, commenting on a American Press Institute study on the subject. No poo poo. There's just a difference between saying that a thing idiots thought they saw in news articles was debunked and that the actual substance of news articles was debunked. The FBI also didn't find a bat child in a cave.
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Oct 19, 2023 22:44
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HonorableTB posted:This is concerning. After Houthi rebels fired missiles in a "northernly direction" and were intercepted/shot down by US Navy, Iran is now moving around its strategic-class ballistic missile launchers. This is unusual as those are typically only seen by the public at parades and exhibitions. No word yet if Iran is going to enter the fight or why they are showing off their ballistic missiles, but given the US Navy incident a few hours ago, it's hard to think they aren't related. It should be noted that the Houthis were NOT firing at the US ship, it was just able to intercept them and shoot them down. It wasn't just missiles either, there were Iranian drones involved (my guess would be Shaheds) Who is Defender_Iran? They're the source of those pics. Seems like a random Iranian telegram channel - are they credible?
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Oct 19, 2023 22:45
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Just curious after all the Iron Dome talk, why does Israel use ID instead of something more like a C-RAM?
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Oct 19, 2023 22:47
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daslog posted:Well, I don't consider a BBC interview with an Israeli spokesman to be a rumor, but I'm hoping someone else either heard it that wasn't driving or is aware of it. Well it's a rumor because Noone's posted the interview. Some guy just said he heard it. So where's. The evidence. Where's the link to the interview. It's not my job to do the research on this.
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Oct 19, 2023 22:50
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NovemberMike posted:No poo poo. There's just a difference between saying that a thing idiots thought they saw in news articles was debunked and that the actual substance of news articles was debunked. The FBI also didn't find a bat child in a cave. The weekly world news disagrees and they're a newspaper for the whole world Weekly pro starcraft loser posted:Just curious after all the Iron Dome talk, why does Israel use ID instead of something more like a C-RAM? I think ID technically counts as a C-RAM system, but I know what you're saying. I think they're using missiles over a cannon because the system is designed to deal with normal peacetime rocket load and under those conditions the system favors accuracy over longevity and the guided missiles do a better job of hitting rockets than cannon fire does The downside is that during hostile activity the unit shuts down after 60 attempts to intercept. When Hamas or PIJ is firing hundreds or thousands of rockets the system can't keep up.
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Oct 19, 2023 22:54
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pro starcraft loser posted:Just curious after all the Iron Dome talk, why does Israel use ID instead of something more like a C-RAM? Iron Dome is C-RAM. The US also calls the land-based phalanx systems C-RAM but IIRC they're more optimized for point defense where you stick them close to a target you want to protect while Iron Dome protects much larger areas. They've started using lases for a similar effect.
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Oct 19, 2023 22:55
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Willo567 posted:Who is Defender_Iran? They're the source of those pics. Seems like a random Iranian telegram channel - are they credible? They're credible in the sense that they posted multiple videos from tonight (Iranian time) showing the missile launchers moving around, yes. I don't know how to post Telegram videos here though (that's probably for the best, really). The channel itself seems to be fairly popular, it's got 20,000+ followers and seems to be a news aggregator focused on military affairs. It's not exactly the NYT but for purposes of my post I consider them credible enough to bring up here on account of they posted the videos being talked about.
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Oct 19, 2023 22:55
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HonorableTB posted:They're credible in the sense that they posted multiple videos from tonight (Iranian time) showing the missile launchers moving around, yes. I don't know how to post Telegram videos here though (that's probably for the best, really). The channel itself seems to be fairly popular, it's got 20,000+ followers and seems to be a news aggregator focused on military affairs. It's not exactly the NYT but for purposes of my post I consider them credible enough to bring up here on account of they posted the videos being talked about. I see. In any case, it could just be an unannounced exercise due to the tensions. Also, the person who Tweeted those pictures noticed that they don't actually have missiles on them https://twitter.com/AmirIGM/status/1715094958657413469 Willo567 fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 23:02
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NovemberMike posted:Jesus Christ this isn't complicated. Give me a timestamp and a video where you see the Tamir interceptors from the Iron Dome. I gave you the timestamp for when the rockets are shot out of the sky. Did you not read my post? Are you saying that the video does not show them being intercepted, or that they were intercepted by something other than the Iron Dome system? If the former, why, and if the latter what?
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Oct 19, 2023 23:06
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I gave you the timestamp for when the rockets are shot out of the sky. Did you not read my post? Are you saying that the video does not show them being intercepted, or that they were intercepted by something other than the Iron Dome system? If the former, why, and if the latter what? Do you have multiple accounts posting here? I clicked on the little question mark under your name and none of your posts in the thread have a timestamp.
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Oct 19, 2023 23:09
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Its important not to lose sight of the big picture when discussing the specifics of each individual atrocity. Six months from now, the Gaza Strip will have been ethnically cleansed. Two million Palestinian civilians, half of them children, will have been exiled or exterminated, with the full complicity of the West. Every nation who has heard the US bang the drum about the righteousness of stopping Putin's genocidal campaign against Ukraine will have watched, in full living Technicolor video, Israel do a successful genocide of the Palestinian people and receive billions of funding from the United States as a reward. Every nation who's been subjected to years of propaganda about China's unimaginable cruelty to its Muslim population will have watched the United States bring in two full carrier groups to help guarantee Israel the ability to finish its ethnic cleansing of its Muslim captive population and prevent any nearby nation being able to interfere. There is no chance that anyone, no matter how credulous they were before, will believe anything the West claims is necessary 'to fight genocide' ever again.
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Oct 19, 2023 23:11
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hey mike you never responded to my question about who the "munitions experts" you were referencing were, I'd still like an answer
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Oct 19, 2023 23:12
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NovemberMike posted:Do you have multiple accounts posting here? I clicked on the little question mark under your name and none of your posts in the thread have a timestamp. NovemberMike posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSCWvOn42HI Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Unless your position is that the rockets climbing out of Gaza hit some sort of draw-distance barrier and flashed out of existence, I'm not sure what your argument is. At 1:53 in the video, after their own motors have burnt out and gone dark, they are intercepted by the Iron Dome. It is quite clear both from watching and from listening that that is what is happening.
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Oct 19, 2023 23:13
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Martman posted:it sure looks like they're giving a timestamp but I'm a little confused too I guess Ok, I was expecting a video and a timestamp but maybe the timestamp refers to the video in the twitter thread they linked a few posts before? That's basically just a super blurry blow up of a lovely cell phone video where they zoomed through it super fast so you can't see anything and then drew a circle around some random dots? It doesn't look like anything to me but the original source video might show something? Herstory Begins Now posted:hey mike you never responded to my question about who the "munitions experts" you were referencing were, I'd still like an answer If you go back someone else posted the article. If you're willing to concede that multiple munitions experts saying it didn't look like an Israeli bomb makes it pretty likely that it's a failed Gazan rocket I can go back and find it. If you don't actually care but you're piling on requests for evidence you don't care for feel free to find the article yourself. NovemberMike fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 23:27
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I'm not saying it doesn't matter where the bomb came from, because it being an Israeli weapon implies more direct culpability due to their capabilities than an inaccurate Hamas rocket having a mishap... but either way it's ultimately on Israel.
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Oct 19, 2023 23:34
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:I think ID technically counts as a C-RAM system, but I know what you're saying. I think they're using missiles over a cannon because the system is designed to deal with normal peacetime rocket load and under those conditions the system favors accuracy over longevity and the guided missiles do a better job of hitting rockets than cannon fire does NovemberMike posted:Iron Dome is C-RAM. The US also calls the land-based phalanx systems C-RAM but IIRC they're more optimized for point defense where you stick them close to a target you want to protect while Iron Dome protects much larger areas. They've started using lases for a similar effect. Thanks guys, and apologies for my nomenclature, I was referring to the cannon style.
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Oct 19, 2023 23:35
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https://x.com/AlanRMacLeod/status/1715124081467465882 looks open and shut to me, the church must have spontaneously exploded
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Oct 19, 2023 23:37
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NovemberMike posted:Ok, I was expecting a video and a timestamp but maybe the timestamp refers to the video in the twitter thread they linked a few posts before? That's basically just a super blurry blow up of a lovely cell phone video where they zoomed through it super fast so you can't see anything and then drew a circle around some random dots? It doesn't look like anything to me but the original source video might show something? It is a video of rockets launching into the sky. Their motors burning out as they exhaust their fuel and move into the next stage of flight. Then, while their motors are dark they all explode. This is indicative of one of four things: Either they hit a magical barrier in the sky and detonated. Their engines reignited far more brightly for a second burn that coincidentally looks like they are exploding into smithereens. They all failed in sequence at approximately the same time after launch. Or they were intercepted by Israeli defence systems. Now, give that the first two of those examples are not actually possible and the third is so unlikely as to be impossible, we must reasonably assume that they were shot down by Israeli anti-rocket defences. If that is not the Iron Dome what is it? Or do you contend that they were not shot down at all. Please read this post more thoroughly than you have previously, you seem to be skimming and that's not good for the discussion.
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Oct 19, 2023 23:41
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Al-Jazeera had their footage, which is what the IDF is saying proves an errant rocket, analysed and they say it shows that the rocket in question was successfully intercepted with the same visual pattern of destruction as other rockets. They also have footage, that the IDF excluded, of other Israeli strikes similar to the explosion confirmed to be at the hospital in the same area across the five minutes up to the hospital strike. Ultimately just comparing two things and saying "these sortof seem similar, they must be the same thing" is not a good argument (especially if those things aren't actually that similar, and it wasn't even that clear what the first thing was, as in this analysis) - see people insisting the sound meant it had to be a JDAM even though we can now largely rule out even the smallest JDAMs Israel has as being responsible. I would be interested to see analysis of these videos from someone who actually has any idea what they're talking about though, now that they seem to have been confirmed as genuine. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 23:43
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Autisanal Cheese posted:https://x.com/AlanRMacLeod/status/1715124081467465882 Saw an NBC video on YouTube of Israel hitting buildings near the other hospital with "purported strikes" or something in the title.
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Oct 19, 2023 23:54
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Google Jeb Bush posted:I'm not saying it doesn't matter where the bomb came from, because it being an Israeli weapon implies more direct culpability due to their capabilities than an inaccurate Hamas rocket having a mishap... but either way it's ultimately on Israel. Yep. Lots of other atrocities that could have been ‘it’. The truth of the matter is mostly irrelevant as the effects of it regionally are real.
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Oct 20, 2023 00:01
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Autisanal Cheese posted:https://x.com/AlanRMacLeod/status/1715124081467465882 Blaming the title here is misunderstanding how news article titles work. Sometimes, they mention a perpetrator, but that's neither required nor a norm. Just the first page of Google searches shows similar titles for missile strikes in Ukraine, an explosion several years ago in Egypt, etc. More famously, even incredibly important events like JFK's assassination don't always mention who did it or even how. The real issue is that the body of the article, which looks to be two paragraphs long and doesn't contain much information. There's nothing about what caused the "blast," if there were more, if there was any evidence about where it came from and so on. It's not even clear how the WSJ got this information, since they misgender the one witness that is mentioned, which seems like it wouldn't happen if they had a direct source.
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Oct 20, 2023 00:03
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Autisanal Cheese posted:https://x.com/AlanRMacLeod/status/1715124081467465882 If you look at the videos including survivor testimony uh idk how Israel spins this one but they will "Looks like the other team did it"
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Oct 20, 2023 00:05
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https://twitter.com/SarahKSilverman/status/1714879511228223509 Sorry, what's the Sally Ride reference about
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Oct 20, 2023 00:13
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Frankly, at this point, I believe if you are still trying to hyperfocus on who was or was not responsible for the hospital bombing, you are missing the forest for the trees, as seen below https://twitter.com/MikeRStephens/status/1714592713562083560 https://twitter.com/MikeRStephens/status/1714593776994316465 This guy is a RUSI fellow who is pretty on point in his observations. In essence, the absolute truth of the hospital result is no longer material to the political impacts generated in the region. Israel has been perceived to engage in such profound barbarity and criminality that the regional Arab dictators have been forced to adopt a posture of anti-Israel lest they face open revolt of their populaces. Even the US's backing of Israel is not sufficient to offset this compulsion. https://twitter.com/yasmine_hafez/status/1714668834907439405 protesting is literally illegal in Egypt, but Sisi has been forced to acquiesce to this outpouring of support What makes this even more fraught is that Israel, and Bibi in particular, does not have an off ramp to deescalate the violence of the response. The sheer scale and surprise of Hamas's attack has shattered Israel's--and Bibi's--promise of security to the settler colonial project of zionism. If Bibi dares to breathe a word of restraint, his party will not only see its support collapse, but he may very well face reactionary violence. This is the recipe for escalation. You should not be thinking how much more will Israel make Gaza suffer. This escalation is the single greatest threat to the overall project of Zionism in decades, and you should be thinking if that project will survive the aftermath. A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 00:24
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Clipperton posted:https://twitter.com/SarahKSilverman/status/1714879511228223509 There's a fake history meme of Sally Ride being sent into space with 100 tampons for the week long trip. It's not true, at best one engineer asked her how many, suggested 100, and was gently told that was a very silly number. I can't tell at all how she's using it here unless she means it as a very goofy "Pobody's Nerfect"
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Oct 20, 2023 00:26
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What in gently caress is she Even saying? I cannot parse this.
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Oct 20, 2023 00:36
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Jen heir rick posted:What in gently caress is she Even saying? I cannot parse this. She's going "Aw shucks I reposted this while I was high - oops"
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Oct 20, 2023 00:36
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I appreciate Al Jazeera cross-referencing and examining the footage but I really do not find their analysis convincing. They assert at 1:53 that it "clearly shows missiles being intercepted by the iron dome" and then... circle some bright dots going out (some of which had already been visible in the sky for several seconds)? And then they go on to assert that the explosion at 19:59:50 looks the same and... it really doesn't? This is clearly a big and bright explosion happening suddenly, not the lights winking out we saw earlier in the video. As for the rocket disintegrating... like, maybe? I can imagine some expert might be able to examine this footage and say definitively that all the fuel and payload must've been destroyed in that explosion, but it doesn't seem like this guy is claiming any expertise, and it isn't obvious to an amateur eye that we aren't just witnessing eg the disintegration of the body of the rocket with the payload left to fall freely. What's really convincing to me is Israel saying to evacuate this hospital, warning they were going to bomb it, bombing it several days before, bombing a bunch of other hospitals, taking credit for bombing this hospital(before it became clear it was a massacre), and the people who were at the hospital saying it was Israel including internationally recognized reliable figures. Added to the fact that since then, they've also bombed other hospitals, schools, food sources, and churches. I think the "I can tell by the pixels" dissection is mostly a sideshow.
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Oct 20, 2023 00:36
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daslog posted:I was driving home about 30 minutes ago and the BBC was interviewing an Israeli spokesman (XM Satellite Radio). The spokesman said that Israel allowed 6 fuel trucks into Gaza yesterday so the hospitals could have power, but Hamas stole the fuel. None of this surprises me, but I'm wondering if anyone else has heard or read about this? Nope, nothing. I can't find any indication that anything was allowed through Rafah yesterday, let alone any of the other border crossings. This CNN article, for instance, says that the crossings haven't let anything through in days and isn't expected to let anything through tomorrow, and that although there have been indications of preparations for a reopening to allow aid through, Israel has not allowed fuel to be added to the list of relief supplies that will be allowed through. Even if Israel did allow a few fuel trucks through without bombing them and reporters just haven't written it down yet, how would it know what happened to the fuel? Israeli intelligence likes to act like they know everything that's happening in Gaza at all times, but recent events have dealt quite a big blow to their credibility there. Autisanal Cheese posted:https://x.com/AlanRMacLeod/status/1715124081467465882 I can't find any news articles corroborating this random podcaster's claim that "Israel just sent 4 missiles into [the Church of Saint Porphyrius]" yet. I see reports of an explosion in or near the church and significant damage to the church, as well as death counts ranging from 8 (according to Al-Jazeera) to scores of people (according to random Arab news outlets I've never heard of), but no one seems to have counted the projectiles yet. I also wouldn't be shocked if journalists were being a little more careful with this one. Not only because we just had that hospital explosion where initial reports were quite muddled and confused, but also because false claims that this particular church was destroyed by an Israeli airstrike have been circulating for more than a week.
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Oct 20, 2023 00:41
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A big flaming stink posted:Frankly, at this point, I believe if you are still trying to hyperfocus on who was or was not responsible for the hospital bombing, you are missing the forest for the trees, as seen below.. I roll at my eyes on reflex at the mention of RUSI but to engage with the ideas in this post the more likely outcome of the public outcry throughout the countries neighboring Israel is immediate suppression and crushing of dissent similar to what we saw during the Arab spring. I don't see Egypt or anyone else acquiescing to public demand to confront Israel or the United States when the much less dangerous route is to just absolutely crush that public sentiment. Yeah it will be a huge shift in the regional space but it's going to manifest in a much more subdued way and it's effects are going to be present slowly over time as opposed to a sudden explosion I regional conflict. There is a reason Biden sent two carrier groups and it's exactly to maintain this scenario, where the cost/benefit of confronting Israel in any real way is just not matched by cost/benefit of just having your army and police just arrest and kill demonstrators.
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Oct 20, 2023 00:50
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e: wrong IP thread
Insanite fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 00:50
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NovemberMike posted:Ok, I was expecting a video and a timestamp but maybe the timestamp refers to the video in the twitter thread they linked a few posts before? That's basically just a super blurry blow up of a lovely cell phone video where they zoomed through it super fast so you can't see anything and then drew a circle around some random dots? It doesn't look like anything to me but the original source video might show something? what? please link the article for me because that doesn't ring a bell. no article has been posted in here with multiple munitions experts weighing in, particularly not in a way that exonerates israel. (there was the article where the political science professor at vanderbilt made some strong statements, but idk what a random PS professor would qualify them as a a munitions expert, and a single RUSI person made a non-committal statement)
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Oct 20, 2023 00:50
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Main Paineframe posted:I also wouldn't be shocked if journalists were being a little more careful with this one. Not only because we just had that hospital explosion where initial reports were quite muddled and confused, but also because false claims that this particular church was destroyed by an Israeli airstrike have been circulating for more than a week. https://x.com/sahouraxo/status/1715090957819875536?s=20 This explains this community note (well, apart from the pro-Israel PR campaign) on a tweet posted today reporting the bombing today, explaining that this is fake news because the church was reported as fine on October 9th.
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Oct 20, 2023 00:52
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:It is a video of rockets launching into the sky. Their motors burning out as they exhaust their fuel and move into the next stage of flight. Then, while their motors are dark they all explode. This is indicative of one of four things: Either they hit a magical barrier in the sky and detonated. Their engines reignited far more brightly for a second burn that coincidentally looks like they are exploding into smithereens. They all failed in sequence at approximately the same time after launch. Or they were intercepted by Israeli defence systems. " Or they were intercepted by Israeli defence systems." should be " Or they were intercepted by Israeli invisible defence systems." The Tamir missiles from Iron Dome burn until they intercept. You're arguing that Israel was launching Tamirs with thrusters that don't produce light when they burn? And that's more likely that a batch of missiles had a similar problem that caused a similar failure? Herstory Begins Now posted:what? please link the article for me because that doesn't ring a bell. no article has been posted in here with multiple munitions experts weighing in, particularly not in a way that exonerates israel. (there was the article where the political science professor at vanderbilt made some strong statements, but idk what a random PS professor would qualify them as a a munitions expert, and a single RUSI person made a non-committal statement) Ah, so you have seen the article and you're just JAQing off.
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Oct 20, 2023 01:02
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If that's in fact the article you were referring to then holy poo poo you wildly mischaracterized its contents as to my intentions, I was asking because I'm curious to see anything that is actually weapons experts weighing in because so far I've seen virtually nothing of the sort and you claimed to have seen several Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 01:05
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Endjinneer posted:Could the endgame credibly be that Israel retains occupation over the north part of the Gaza strip, so what we're about to see is the second ethnic cleansing of 2023? It makes a grim sort of logical sense as a punitive measure to Hamas and a bung to the settler-friendly Israeli right wing. maybe, but Likud pulled out of Gaza and forcibly evicted Israeli settlers back in 2005 despite losing a referendum to go ahead with the pullout by a landslide. Not sure if they are eager to allow the overextension of their settlement project again, those settlements in gaza aren't going to be easy to defend Typo fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 01:10
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Herstory Begins Now posted:If that's in fact the article you were referring to then holy poo poo you wildly mischaracterized its contents Please actually demonstrate that I'm wildly mischaracterizing it instead of just doing a groundhog impression by crawling out of your own rear end in a top hat just long enough to say a single sentence. For example, here's a tweet from the RUSI guy you said made a single noncommittal statement (hint: any expert will be somewhat noncommittal because they're looking at cell phone video). https://twitter.com/Justin_Br0nk/status/1714527504805904590 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 20, 2023 01:15
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