|
gurragadon posted:I'm not sure but I dont think they would have to balance unless they try to move out of the square after standing. Makes sense, was thinking it triggered on any "move action" instead of just movement.
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 06:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 07:40 |
|
|
appropriatemetaphor posted:Makes sense, was thinking it triggered on any "move action" instead of just movement. I went back and forth on it and I'm not sure as a GM I would always rule that way, especially if your build was around locking down enemies at the expense of other things. Most of the time I would rule it as 2 actions but on rare circumstances I could see it being 3. Standing up on a tiny ledge and standing up on rocky ground are different to me even if they are both standing and one requires more balance IMO. RAW though I think its 2 actions.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 16:37
|
|
|
It's two actions. The Balance action is for if you need to actually move across the area. Trying to apply Balance to Stand makes no sense, because crit success does nothing because you're not going any distance, failure does nothing because you're staying stationary (you're not moving any distance). It'd just be a weird application all around. Incidentally, you cannot Step on uneven ground, because you need to Balance or fall.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 18:31
|
|
|
There's a new Pathfinder Lore Masters mobile game; https://www.loremasters.com/ it's a silly little trivia thing that's an equal mix Pathfinder 2e rules trivia and golarion lore. There's a bank of free questions, and then you can pay for additional banks of questions based on various sourcebooks for like, 3 bucks a piece. It's a fun way to waste 15 minutes if you're a dumb pathfinder nerd. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 19:05
|
|
|
I'm considering respecing out of swashbuckler. I enjoyed the concept, but I'm increasingly feeling unsatisfied with how it plays in practice. I'm looking at swapping to a drifter gunslinger, but I'm a bit concerned that this might be too fragile, especially given that I'm currently the group's main tank. How worried should I actually be about this?
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 21:47
|
|
|
depends a lot on which AP is involved, to be honest. i've found that different ones do very different things with their encounters; you might be able to handle it when the default is a lot of weaker targets but not when it's a solo, for example. drifter also doesn't do that much to control enemies or reduce their actions beyond just deleting them, if you're worried about that
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 21:49
|
|
|
5-Headed Snake God posted:I'm considering respecing out of swashbuckler. I enjoyed the concept, but I'm increasingly feeling unsatisfied with how it plays in practice. I'm looking at swapping to a drifter gunslinger, but I'm a bit concerned that this might be too fragile, especially given that I'm currently the group's main tank. How worried should I actually be about this? A lot of this depends on what isn’t clicking for you from swashbuckler, obviously, but if it’s the rigidity of the action economy and struggles with panache, a drifter gunslinger is going to be as miserable or more miserable for you. Like, I don’t think you could pick a worse replacement in terms of trying to find something that doesn’t share a lot of similar frustrations. (If you want to do a gunslinger and be tanky, a Vanguard will give you at least some amount of positional control to actually do some defendery things.)
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 22:02
|
|
|
If you've not played a class from the core book you really owe it to yourself to do so. They are just better, both mechanically and how they feel playing compared to the majority of the classes that were printed after. Kineticist, Thaumaturge, and maybe Psychic being exceptions. I really think the majority of non-core stuff is for experienced players who are bored of the core options. They are neat but not nearly as flexible, with pretty strict action economy while requiring better system mastery. And for all the extra effort you get zero additional power (which I'm not complaining about, balancing an overpowered class with extra complexity would be bad). Alchemist is also exempt from this generalization, of course. KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Oct 18, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 22:15
|
|
|
i think pf2e is the only game i've ever seen follow a pattern of "everything printed after the core struggles to catch up to it" I assume they just don't dedicate the same resources to playtesting every new class that comes out, but it is weird.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 22:20
|
|
|
Impermanent posted:i think pf2e is the only game i've ever seen follow a pattern of "everything printed after the core struggles to catch up to it" I assume they just don't dedicate the same resources to playtesting every new class that comes out, but it is weird. They've finally fixed this issue recently, Kineticist and Thaumaturge are two of the best made classes in the game, and while Psychic isn't as well done I'd say it's somewhere in the middle. There definitely was a middle period where the classes are not great, though. Hopefully Animist and Exemplar keep up the trend.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 23:00
|
|
|
Impermanent posted:i think pf2e is the only game i've ever seen follow a pattern of "everything printed after the core struggles to catch up to it" you could argue this is the curse of 3.5 following paizo that said, without archetype support i think some of the core classes are pretty anemic. monk and ranger stand out as just kind of blobs of stats without much interesting to do
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 23:18
|
|
|
Stance dancing is awesome you take that back
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 23:30
|
|
|
Mister Olympus posted:you could argue this is the curse of 3.5 following paizo Definitely feels true for ranger - the hunt prey action tax really clamps down on the playstyle and locks them into being a specific kind of single target big numbers specialist. But the monk is the most mobile striker in the game.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 23:31
|
|
|
Chevy Slyme posted:Definitely feels true for ranger - the hunt prey action tax really clamps down on the playstyle and locks them into being a specific kind of single target big numbers specialist. that doesn't really contradict what i said. it has good damage numbers and flat bonuses to AC and movement speed that are very valuable, but that's still just a blob of stats without interesting stuff to do or a lot of different tools
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 23:51
|
|
|
Mister Olympus posted:that doesn't really contradict what i said. it has good damage numbers and flat bonuses to AC and movement speed that are very valuable, but that's still just a blob of stats without interesting stuff to do or a lot of different tools There’s also flurry of blows which reliably gives them 2 strikes and two other actions every turn. They have one of the most dynamic presences on the field possible as a result.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2023 23:57
|
|
|
I wonder if monk with a bit of fighter multi class might be the way to go. I'm looking to try and keep the same overall aesthetic for the character, so I dont just want to switch to a fighter or champion. Rogue is the other obvious choice, but our party already has one. My issue with swashbuckler mostly stems from the need to get two good rolls in a row (gain panache and attack) to do well. Juggling actions is actually something I enjoy and makes the class fun and challenging to play. 5-Headed Snake God fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Oct 19, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 00:05
|
|
|
Mister Olympus posted:-because precision immunity is tied to enemy type in this way, it means that there are entire adventure paths that make rogues useless in combat, even when those same adventure paths might encourage characters to be rogues because of reliance on traps and various skill checks. this makes 'being the rogue' more of a tax than anything; you have to lug around someone who is a less effective character for many encounters, just so you aren't punished severely in other types of encounter. this is simply not a good way to construct a game. You don't technically need a rogue for traps. Unlike some editions of DnD anybody can pick up the thievery skill and a set of lockpicks and go to town on traps. Thievery relies on dex, so any dex build can be your lock/trap guy and do as good a job at it as a rogue. (So far most traps I've seen could also be defeated by just bashing them, though you need a big damage guy to get past the hardness.) Dick Burglar posted:So, what about precision rangers? Bombs. Rangers are uniquely suited to bombs. Quick draw + proficiency in martial weapons. (This will apply to rogues too after the remaster.) Also feeds into the boy scout always be prepared vibe. Loads of swarms are immune to precision but weak to splash damage. Fighting undead? Ghost charge has your back. Ooze? Oozes can have lots of weird immunities and resistances, but alchemist's fire works on most of them if you don't know a specific weakness.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 01:33
|
|
|
Mister Olympus posted:that doesn't really contradict what i said. it has good damage numbers and flat bonuses to AC and movement speed that are very valuable, but that's still just a blob of stats without interesting stuff to do or a lot of different tools You're naming monk for that over FIGHTER?
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 02:03
|
|
|
yeah doesn't monk have more feats than every other class?
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 02:12
|
|
|
i don't really get seeing monk as a stat blob. having 2 hands free all the time is huge in a game like pathfinder. by default they've got kickass battlefield mobility and flexibility to get good at any/all of the major combat skill maneuvers. that's just the baked-in identity before they start building feats.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 04:19
|
|
|
Cyouni posted:You're naming monk for that over FIGHTER? fighter has cool stuff to do. it can take feats that let it do things rather than just strike or combat maneuver, or combine those actions, and those feats are inherent in the class. monk gets one special action per stance, and has to change stances to do other special actions, possibly locking it into a 'weapon' it doesn't really want to use or just generally making its turns worse from having the action tax (like post-core classes). like i said, without archetypes to give monk the fighter feats it needs via wrestler or whatever, monk looks pretty anemic because of how much of a tax having a bunch of stances is (and how you probably just want to choose one stance that fits your build the best.) i agree that the core classes are generally more straightforwardly effective than post-core, but a lot of that straightforward effectiveness is because their generally lacking class feat lists, outside of fighter, can be made up for with the breadth that archetypes offer. taken without archetypes, monk, ranger, and champion (to a lesser extent than monk, and monk to a lesser extent than ranger*) all have a lot of stuff burned on progression taxes or just generally dead levels where there's not much interesting to take i've beat this drum before--fighter gets cool stuff in its base class like intimidating strike and combat grab that compress 'strike' and 'do other thing' into fewer actions, or strong situational options like the feats meant to take down flying enemies. it's extremely telling that a lot of the stronger martial archetypes are just a bunch of thematic feat chains taken from fighter, with some unique stuff of their own. *more specifically, champion is more boring than monk outside of the paladin/blade ally/reach weapon build which generally behaves like a post-core class in terms of action loops but is a core class in terms of numbers effectiveness. they both have way more going on than ranger Mister Olympus fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Oct 19, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 05:40
|
|
|
I like to activate my shadow ki and spawn shadow whips and grab and pull guys and then throw them around like rag dolls then hit them with the Final Flash. Monk's cool.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 05:58
|
|
|
Mister Olympus posted:fighter has cool stuff to do. it can take feats that let it do things rather than just strike or combat maneuver, or combine those actions, and those feats are inherent in the class. monk gets one special action per stance, and has to change stances to do other special actions, possibly locking it into a 'weapon' it doesn't really want to use or just generally making its turns worse from having the action tax (like post-core classes). Fighter gets a bunch of different Strikes to abuse their +2 to hit with a single weapon type, and some other things like Blind-Fight and whatnot. A lot of their feats also require a specific type of style (one-handed empty, two-handed, archery, etc). It's very effective, but it's entirely reliant on their +2 to hit. Like seriously, pick me interesting things that Fighter gets to do that isn't related to Strike. Let's look at some of them you named: Intimidating Strike to strike and frighten, Combat Grab to strike and grab, Knockdown to strike and knock the enemy prone, whatever the name is of the one that strikes and takes something out of the air, Sudden Charge to move twice and strike, etc. They have some others, which are generally the shield type feats, and then Determination/Blind Fight as the outliers. You note that the archetypes that specialize in one weapon style usually share a lot with fighter, and that's because a lot of those things that weapon styles need are different ways to strike with that weapon. Fighter does do that extremely well, so that's not surprising. Comparatively, Monk has stances, ki powers, environmental utility, strikes, maneuvers, which results in a significantly larger variety of things they can do. Their class bonuses come from movement and action economy in Flurry, not higher to-hit like the fighter. You name champion for some reason, but between focus spells, auras, etc, the end up with a much wider variety of things they can do than the fighter, who's very attached to Strike. Not to mention their reaction, which at level 11 improves to become a massively different effect.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 07:02
|
|
|
You totally CAN build a fighter towards Double Slice and Agile Grace and just spam as many Strikes as possible every round, but it can get way more complex in play-style than most classes can too. I'm not even talking about a list of feats for "Strike plus grab" or "Strike plus frighten", I mean when you load up on the feats for extra reactions to use Attack of Opportunity or Shield Block every round with a reach weapon and/or Lunging Stance and Shield Warden to block for allies, and then every round is more about best positioning yourself to guard allies and threaten targets than attacking people. Add Brutish Shove and/or Dragging Strike on top of just generic Shove and you get to play with where the other team's pieces are on the board, too. Comparatively, Flurry of Blows and the abundance of agile unarmed Strikes for Monks means you're incentivized to punch people a lot most rounds. The free hands means you're better at grappling and tripping too, but then it's still usually just Grab > Trip > punch until it dies. With the crit specialization for unarmed strikes being save vs slow 1 that makes you pretty loving good at locking a target the gently caress down to slow/Escape/Stand, but in terms of decision making there's not a lot of complexity. I always enjoy playing characters that have to react and plan around changing circumstances and enemy decisions way more than characters which mostly boil down to "who do I spam my flow-chart of actions on?"
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 09:57
|
|
|
You're not wrong, but the comparison there in Monk is Tangled Forest Stance (+Rake) and Stand Still. Very feat unintensive, so you can do things like Ki Blast/Wholeness of Body, splash in the Grapple feats, pick up some movement feats, or some of the Strikes. A variant I built was via Stand Still, a bo staff, and all the feats that can push people back, which is worse but funnier to me.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 13:55
|
|
|
I ended up going with a Time Oracle+(My GM allows using the oracle+ third party supplement) I've very curious to see just how loving miserable the Time Relevation curse downsides are in play. It only goes to level 12 so only 2 levels of having to play around being permanently slowed 1. Maybe spoilers for Season of Ghosts I've also managed to sorta put together an idea what is happening from some vague things that I've seen floating around, about the AP and figured it'd be thematic
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 16:22
|
|
|
Permanent slowed 1 is only a big deal if you want to cast a spell and also do anything else on a turn.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 16:24
|
|
|
Dexo posted:I ended up going with a Time Oracle+(My GM allows using the oracle+ third party supplement) Oracle is a class that intrigues me so I am curious to hear how this goes for you.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 16:32
|
|
|
boxen posted:Permanent slowed 1 is only a big deal if you want to cast a spell and also do anything else on a turn. It’s also “permanent” - you need to use two focus spells before the slow kicks in, and it resets when you refocus. So, starting in round 3 of the fight you slow down, usually, by which time, hopefully, you’re relatively positioned.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 17:45
|
|
|
I assume they're planning to sit on major curse for the +4 to initiative.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 18:45
|
|
|
boxen posted:Permanent slowed 1 is only a big deal if you want to cast a spell and also do anything else on a turn. I dunno, not being able to reposition yourself without losing the ability to cast a spell seems like it'd suck to me, unless your group is large enough that you are permanently safe in the backline.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 18:54
|
|
|
Cyouni posted:I assume they're planning to sit on major curse for the +4 to initiative. The focus spells for Time are good enough that I'd call that a poor plan, personally, but I suppose that's A Thing You Could Do.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 19:36
|
|
|
Had a pretty good use of (best feat) Prescient Planner last night. We were robbing an ancient treasure from a Duergar city, in the middle of a market filled with their wealthiest merchants. We needed needed to clear the area to give us some time to open the vault, so we decided to cause an evacuation. We came in disguise as traders, and our sorcerer (and deception expert) told the duergar that he was going to sell them a fine, innovative magical item, and asked to demonstrate it. He asked them to stand back for the demonstration, as the item was very delicate and could be dangerous if disturbed. As he set up the "demonstration", our sorcerer swore loudly, set off a smokestick, and (acting panicked) told everyone that they needed to evacuate immediately. Unfortunately, he rolled poorly on his deception check, and the duergar hesitated. So, it was time for desperate measures. My ratfolk investigator yelled "I think I breathed in some smoke!", used Prescient Planner to pull out a fake blood pack, cupped it in my hands in front of my mouth, and then burst it, making it look like I was projectile vomiting blood. That did the trick, and the duergar merchants ran out screaming as I fell to the floor, crying "help me... I think I can see the great cheese wheel in the sky". We locked the doors behind them, and next session, we will attempt to break into the vault (and escape intact).
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 19:50
|
|
|
Prescient Planner and Prescient Consumable (or the rogue feat that combines them, Predictive Purchase) are some of the most fun and flavorful feats I've seen in a D&D-style game, and I love them. I'm glad you found a novel use for them, that sounds fun!
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 19:52
|
|
|
Clerical Terrors posted:I dunno, not being able to reposition yourself without losing the ability to cast a spell seems like it'd suck to me, unless your group is large enough that you are permanently safe in the backline. I think it's more viable in some APs and not in others. Like if it kicks in on the third round, and you only have a group of 4 in abomination vaults without any minions, you can pretty safely just park yourself outside the door once everyone else is inside and target all or most of any given room, while someone will likely be plugging the chokepoint in front of you.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2023 23:24
|
|
|
Chevy Slyme posted:The focus spells for Time are good enough that I'd call that a poor plan, personally, but I suppose that's A Thing You Could Do. I would not disagree, but that's really the only way you'd be perma slowed 1.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 00:10
|
|
|
I'm playing a fighter now and yeah Pathfinder 2E's fighter is easily the strongest D&D variant. While they're combat focused and straightforward it's great that you can build them in ways that play completely differently with just some feat selections. I'm building the one I'm playing now to eventually get lunging stance at 12 and just being a massive hazard on the field that enemies have to focus on or face attacks of opportunity.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 01:11
|
|
|
VikingofRock posted:Had a pretty good use of (best feat) Prescient Planner last night. We were robbing an ancient treasure from a Duergar city, in the middle of a market filled with their wealthiest merchants. We needed needed to clear the area to give us some time to open the vault, so we decided to cause an evacuation. We came in disguise as traders, and our sorcerer (and deception expert) told the duergar that he was going to sell them a fine, innovative magical item, and asked to demonstrate it. He asked them to stand back for the demonstration, as the item was very delicate and could be dangerous if disturbed. This is incredible. Thank you for showing me this item exists. I can think of a million and one things to do with a fake blood pack...
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 02:03
|
|
|
It'd be interesting (maybe!) to see a class guide for PF2 that explains the classes primarily in terms of their expected 3-action economies. I think it'd be illuminating at least.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 03:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 07:40 |
|
|
Fidel Cuckstro posted:It'd be interesting (maybe!) to see a class guide for PF2 that explains the classes primarily in terms of their expected 3-action economies.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 06:16
|
|