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Its genuinely frustrating to see conversations like this repeat over and over. Labour have made it incredibly clear that they do not value or desire my support. I will not be voting for them. If you think that i should be voting for them then what you actually need to do, rather than engaging in the curcular lesser of two evils rhetoric (which will fall on deaf ears, corbyn was not deemed lesser by many people expousing this argument funnily enough) is to acknowledge the labour party is sctively hostile to many of the people who voted for them in the last two elections and spend your activism trying to change that fact. The current excuse i believe is that 'starmer tried to unite the party but the mean old lefties were just too unreasonable' but the reality is that windsock starmer said a bunch of good poo poo in order to get elected by a largely left wing membership, then dropped all of that and did all he could to disenfranchise and purge the people that voted him in in the first place. Its a stunning and cynical betrayal thats been ongoing for years now. Politically i have been jetisoned by a party that used to represent me, my values and my interests. It does not matter to me if the labour party was 2% better than the tories, the tories didnt lie to my face and tell me to gently caress off expecting them to hold to the good policies they claimed to have. That is the problem and once again i will not be bullied or shamed for my lack of support to a party actively hostile to me by a faction that couldnt hold their noses for Corbyn but certainly took advantage of his political ideals to grab power in a nakedly cynical way. A good example of how kier starmer operates is how before being elected leader of the part he spoke to people in liverpool about how he 'certainly wouldn't be talking to the Sun (during this campaign)' then pointed to that last bit when after he was leader he had a big article in the Sun newspaper. Its this incredibly unpleasant way of engaging with your supporters. the political equivalent of 'im not touching you'. Just gently caress off, its worse than if you just lied or changed your mind, its like loving gaslighting 'oh you thought i meant the thing i clearly was implying, sorry you didnt listen better' lawyer talk.
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Oct 20, 2023 13:12
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you can do other things than vote. starmer is gonna very clearly walk it, and more over obviously doesn't want me to vote for him. so I don't have to, he can win with the exact kinda voters he likes - and then can, u know, privatise healthcare and have his loving cop state and whatever. fun and games. good post above. ScipioAfro fucked around with this message at 13:36 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 13:13
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Gasmask posted:Here are some of the policies that Labour have publicly committed to: Increasing income tax on the top 5% of earners. Abolishing Universal Credit and reforming the welfare system. Common ownership of public services. It’s literally walked back all these commitments.
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Oct 20, 2023 13:13
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Gasmask posted:Again - I have no issue with wanting things to be better or just less poo poo, but the reality is that for the time being at least one of those two parties is going to be running the country and I would sooner crawl across broken glass than let the Tories get back in on the basis of 'maybe if they really gently caress us over we'll finally have a revolution' or similar. They're going to really gently caress us over regardless of how we vote, and the idea that we voted for it will be a part of the justification for them doing it.
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Oct 20, 2023 13:16
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New Labour did do a lot of good. The problem is that that was when the Left of the party had more sway, the good Labour did in the short term was outweighed by the long term bad, and all the good done by Labour in those years were immediately decimated by the Tories within their first year in office. Now the left has no sway in Labour, the right wing of Labour blamed the recession on the few good things they did in office because they still want to solicit bribes from the people who did cause the recession and they've actively promised not to do anything good in office. The argument that maybe Labour will be good when they're in office is undermined by Labour right now. They're openly promising more privatisation of the NHS, sacked off their mental health brief and the only thing they seem keen on funding in the NHS is loving AI. Might as well promise to put it on the Blockchain. Labour is back under New Labour control and everyone in New Labour is rabidly more right wing than they were even ten years ago. I genuinely hope I'm wrong but Labour's put all its money on being seen as a more efficient Tory party than the one we've got and I don't see that changing when they get their majority.
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Oct 20, 2023 13:17
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I'm not trying to bully or shame anyone - sorry if it seems that way.
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Oct 20, 2023 13:18
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Based on what I’ve seen over the last week I’ll happily take a bet on Keith winning the election comfortably, and spending 5 worthless years tinkering around the edges while the press heaps the blame at his door, while a decimated Tory party says “gently caress it” and lets Farage back in, and then in 5 years time we get our very own poundshop, fagstained, piss-stinking version of Trump
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Oct 20, 2023 13:28
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OwlFancier posted:Fuctifino has already mentioned that new labour brought in the stuff that has led to the deaths of a lot of people with disabiltiies and long term health problems, And there is no evidence from Labour that this won't happen again. Anything short of full-spirited improvements - e.g. middle managing new ways to calculate benefits eligibility instead of unconditional, meaningful financial and medical support for everyone - will, no matter the intentions before or remonstrations after, be reconfigured to optimally process humans into a homogenate by the successor to the next Labour government.
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Oct 20, 2023 13:30
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ScipioAfro posted:you can do other things than vote. Is it just too difficult for a new party to form made up of people that are not career politicians spinning lies? With labour clearly winning because they're not tories but not actually offering anything that people want, does that not leave a space for someone else to come along? Perhaps someone, running on a platform of were neither of these poo poo bags and will actually tax the rich and invest money in social infrastructure like the NHS, schools, housing rather than embezzling it on yachts, podiums and fictional PPE. Like a party of people actually qualified to make decisions on things healthcare or education, etc?
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Oct 20, 2023 13:33
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domhal posted:And there is no evidence from Labour that this won't happen again. Anything short of full-spirited improvements - e.g. middle managing new ways to calculate benefits eligibility instead of unconditional, meaningful financial and medical support for everyone - will, no matter the intentions before or remonstrations, be reconfigured to optimally process humans into a homogenate by the successor to the next Labour government. That they're so unwilling to make any sort of idealistic statement about stuff like that is very telling. There's no acknowledgement that the system is degrading and cruel, if anything they seem very keen on the degradation and cruelty except they call it, like the tories do "helping people back to work" because obviously everyone can and should be working as much as possible. No acknowledgement that work fucks people up and some people can't do it. Fundamentally a party of people who just... don't care about the people that the system they helped build has hosed so many people over. Don't want anything to do with the people worst off when they could spend their time trying to suck up to tories.
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Oct 20, 2023 13:34
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smellmycheese posted:Based on what I’ve seen over the last week I’ll happily take a bet on Keith winning the election comfortably, and spending 5 worthless years tinkering around the edges while the press heaps the blame at his door, while a decimated Tory party says “gently caress it” and lets Farage back in, and then in 5 years time we get our very own poundshop, fagstained, piss-stinking version of Trump tbh that was boris johnson. kinda wonder if farage could actually be worse. he's of the exact same bileous ilk
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Oct 20, 2023 13:40
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Jedit posted:Not just war crimes - crimes against humanity.
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Oct 20, 2023 13:42
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Kin posted:Is it just too difficult for a new party to form made up of people that are not career politicians spinning lies? We're a bit crowded for parties already under a FPTP system. If the Greens can't crack more than one seat 'the technocrats party' isn't going to do it.
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Oct 20, 2023 13:54
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Kin posted:Is it just too difficult for a new party to form made up of people that are not career politicians spinning lies? That'd be great if the people doing the voting weren't also loving stupid (see: brexit).
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Oct 20, 2023 13:56
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fuctifino posted:I can see him ripping us out of the ECHR and as far as crips like me are concerned, he'll adopt a 'work will set you free' policy. The main difference between the two parties is that the Tory brand is "you lot have to work harder for us" and New Labour's brand is "We have to work harder for them."
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Oct 20, 2023 13:57
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Kin posted:Is it just too difficult for a new party to form made up of people that are not career politicians spinning lies? We already had an established party offering better things. They were torn to shreds by the media and the leadership were betrayed from within. Even if you could get a new grassroots party together, they'd be starved of media exposure, taken even less seriously, and monstered even harder as the left wing loony party who were too anti-Semitic even for Labour to tolerate.
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Oct 20, 2023 14:15
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Why should Keith get the benefit of the doubt about anything?
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Oct 20, 2023 14:20
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For the record, Labour flat-out rejected a successful conference motion for the public ownership of energy more or less as soon as it passed. https://x.com/bbcbreakfast/status/1711642141179494724?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Oct 20, 2023 14:21
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I find it really loving patronising and insulting when I, as a trans person, say I won't be voting labour, and get all the brain-addled centrists come out and chastise me for it, as if my existence is some little bargaining chip to get a modicum of improvement in this country
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Oct 20, 2023 14:23
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Tesseraction posted:tbh that was boris johnson. He's a oval office but also one of the best liberal reformers we've had since Roy Jenkins, and if the three choices were between red and blue tories saying "there's no money to feed kids, but plenty to have the filth measure everyone's dog and make sure they aren't making whipped cream at home" and Boris, fresh out of the toilet after having a wank and having his only policy be "has anyone got a napkin?" I think he'd have the edge over Sunak/Braverman/Starmer/Reeves.
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Oct 20, 2023 14:24
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I think some patience is in order, hard as it is, and much harder for some others than me. In the meantime if there is one thing I have learned about politics over the years it's that you don't get anything you want by voting for someone who you don't actually support.
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Oct 20, 2023 14:32
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Speaking of the fat oval office, https://twitter.com/stuzi_pants/status/1715061852407734739?t=tzdrhW4qgHoUJnAA0PLbtw&s=19
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Oct 20, 2023 14:36
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Guavanaut posted:Boris at least liberalized divorce laws for the first time since the 50s, abortion laws for the first time since the 60s, and was talking about cannabis legalization. I mean sure, but I think if anything it shows how dire everything is Gordon Brown is the best prime minister of my lifetime and I was born under Thatcher
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Oct 20, 2023 14:43
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The napkin would certainly be the most inspirational manifesto of the three. The most impactful publication. The more seminal sheet.
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Oct 20, 2023 14:48
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Don't know much else about Major but if he does deserve a lot of credit for the GFA then maybe it's a tie with Gordon at least.
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Oct 20, 2023 14:54
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Yeah it's worth remembering that one of New Labour's first acts was massive cuts for child benefits for single mothers, something that lefty socialist John Major found too heartless. And by the end of New Labour they were viewed as so poo poo towards young people and minorities that pig fiddler Cameron could flank them on hugging hoodies. They did achieve some genuine gains, but they spend so much of their time doing a minstrel act for the Murdoch press (sometimes literally with "knife crime is part of Black culture" and "we'll scan for bad kids in the womb" bullshit) that a lot of people were just appalled with them by the end, and viewed a Lib Dem coalition as more hopeful for progress (lol (sad lol))
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Oct 20, 2023 15:00
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Aside from the Labour of now not being the Labour of 1997, the argument of imagining how much worse things could get under another five years of the Tories doesn't hold quite so much sway when you look at the present - the walk-back on Brexit pledges, the continual stalling of the Rwanda plan and Liz Truss immediately crashing into the earth are all part of the reason that the Tories are flopping around like dead fish instead of actually achieving anything (for a Tory definition of achievement). The main problem with this is that they have now pivoted to hysterical screeching about culture war issues which is opening the door to even more right wing rhetoric, but what won't fix that is voting in the party who have completely capitulated to that rhetoric with no intention of rolling back any of the bad things that the Tories *did* manage to get through. Nothing good will be achieved by either party being in power because most of the current damage is culture war stuff that both parties are more than happy to back.
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Oct 20, 2023 15:02
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Yeah I genuinely don't know if I'm more worried about the tories winning a slim majority and continuing to stab each other and incompetently govern, or labour getting in and "competently" implementing a bunch of horrible poo poo and giving the tories room to regroup and push forward with the worst of the labour stuff when they invitably lose because they didn't fix anything.
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Oct 20, 2023 15:07
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Also worth remembering that Ukip didn't ever win a single seat in a general election, and yet still got everything they wanted, like Brexit andDoctor_Fruitbat posted:hysterical screeching about culture war issues Doctor_Fruitbat posted:even more right wing rhetoric So yeah, Doctor_Fruitbat posted:but what won't fix that is voting in the party who have completely capitulated to that rhetoric with no intention of rolling back What's needed is a reverse Ukip.
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Oct 20, 2023 15:08
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I think the issue there is that demonstrably the media is full of dickheads who like to imagine they're very thoughtful and progressive but are actually very conservative and find the idea of reactionary culture war poo poo very exciting to flirt with, while running from anything that resembles actual improvements for most people like it's the plague. So right wing crap inherently gets more purchase than left wing stuff does. Don't know how you fix that as long as we live in a society with mass media.
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Oct 20, 2023 15:12
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Guavanaut posted:What's needed is a reverse Ukip. Party of Independent Kommunists United (PIKU)
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Oct 20, 2023 15:14
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i think a part of it is that whatever they actually were and what they actually did in power, when in opposition the blairites did a good job of presenting themselves as a transformative, progressive force that would, well, make things better. a brighter world, full of new possibilities etc. in contrast, here's starmer and co.: labour 1997: things can only get better labour 2023: it is wrong to offer hope
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Oct 20, 2023 15:16
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And that in itself is just a rephrasing of "we can't fund anything because the national credit card is overdrawn" which we've had over a decade of evidence to prove doesn't work, if you don't spend money then there is no "growth" and it never gets better, but somehow there will always be money to spend on cops and more stuff for MPs and replacing your doctor with chatgpt.
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Oct 20, 2023 15:24
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OwlFancier posted:And that in itself is just a rephrasing of "we can't fund anything because the national credit card is overdrawn" which we've had over a decade of evidence to prove doesn't work, if you don't spend money then there is no "growth" and it never gets better, but somehow there will always be money to spend on cops and more stuff for MPs and replacing your doctor with chatgpt. Maybe you could convince people to replace Tory blowhards with chat gpt. Probably has better alignment with human morality.
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Oct 20, 2023 15:54
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Cummings is apparently starting a new party to feast on the carcass of the Tories so I look forward to it doing as well as all new parties founded in the last half century or so.
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Oct 20, 2023 15:55
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Beefeater1980 posted:Cummings is apparently starting a new party to feast on the carcass of the Tories so I look forward to it doing as well as all new parties founded in the last half century or so. The Liberal Democrats got into a coalition government.
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Oct 20, 2023 16:01
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Apraxin posted:i think a part of it is that whatever they actually were and what they actually did in power, when in opposition the blairites did a good job of presenting themselves as a transformative, progressive force that would, well, make things better. a brighter world, full of new possibilities etc. in contrast, here's starmer and co.: What a bunch of unambitious wets. They could make some genuinely radical changes to the way we function as a country, but instead they prefer to pretend that capital can only be apportioned by the Tories, and that investing in infrastructure and people isn't a net gain. Cunts.
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Oct 20, 2023 16:29
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Beefeater1980 posted:Cummings is apparently starting a new party to feast on the carcass of the Tories so I look forward to it doing as well as all new parties founded in the last half century or so. I mean UKIP was formed in protest of the tories integrating with Europe and has been astoundingly successful.
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Oct 20, 2023 16:37
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Oh Scientastic I was rereading the old goldmine chili thread and still guffaw out loud at your primo shitposting in it.
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Oct 20, 2023 16:39
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Barrel Cactaur posted:Maybe you could convince people to replace Tory blowhards with chat gpt. Probably has better alignment with human morality. You could ChatGPT half the loving journo articles, that’s for sure.
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Oct 20, 2023 16:43
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