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Re: decisions, I'm sure it isn't news to anyone here but so it's stated: there are a lot of organisations where making decisions is career poison, and the optimal (individual) outcome is to trick or persuade or frustrate someone else into publicly deciding what everyone already knows needs to be done. Unfortunately, if a particular decision can only be made by one of a small number of people, and they're all aware of the situation...
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Oct 20, 2023 08:19
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downout posted:Has anyone else been getting smoke signals from execs that they are starting to expect a downturn from the recent US House of Rep clusterfuck? We had an all hands meeting the other day with them talking about reduced future profits and bonuses, and last time we had an all hands it was all "great year, big numbers, expecting another pile of high bonuses". I'm just kind of curious seeing as the current CR has about ~4 weeks left. Company people didn't give a reason, I'm just speculating for a potential cause. Anecdotally, I also noticed a couple of companies I regularly check for job openings went from some to zero in the last few days. It’s a running joke in my industry that the first three quarters of the year are the best we’ve ever had, smashing all the metrics, but as soon as the fourth quarter rolls around we start experiencing “significant headwinds” and we shouldn’t expect the bonus pool to be 100% funded. So if you heard this any other time of the year it might be legit, but right now the timing seem suspect
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Oct 20, 2023 12:52
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downout posted:Has anyone else been getting smoke signals from execs that they are starting to expect a downturn from the recent US House of Rep clusterfuck? Low, it's smoke but its being blown. The last economic report just came out showing a decrease in unemployment and a higher economic growth rate than predicted (which is potentially bad for people as it means we're still in inflation risk, but should be good for hitting targets if you're a business). The only exceptions is if you are working for an investment bank which are looking to cut workforce as money is not getting cheaper (though the M&A market is still pretty strong). Also 1 year ago Bloomberg predicted a 100% chance of a recession within a year so anyone is is pretending to know what will happen is lying. In this case your company is probably lying or they're just poorly managed and trying to blame macro factors.
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Oct 20, 2023 14:59
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Lockback posted:Also 1 year ago Bloomberg predicted a 100% chance of a recession within a year Many more have predicted equally or more dire occurrences that never came to pass. It's amazing how all of these predictions are memory holed except for the one idiot who guess right out of sheer luck dusts off their old "prediction" when it comes to pass and people think they're a genius. It's important to always remember this pattern whenever consuming As far as why any company would be pushing this? I agree with the bonus season thing. But also recall how recently many people, including a very high up one at my company, were talking about "the metaverse" which has been entirely memory holed by now. Being in executive leadership is not a meritocracy. It only take a few conversations with some of these people to know that for a fact.
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Oct 20, 2023 15:07
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I had an economics professor who joked that economists accurately predicted seven of the last three recessions. Now that any clown with a Twitter account can shout about their predictions...
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Oct 20, 2023 15:09
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Lockback posted:Bloomberg predicted As long as they manage to keep larry summers away from the WH we'll be just fine.
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Oct 20, 2023 15:17
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Trabant posted:I had an economics professor who joked that economists accurately predicted seven of the last three recessions. this is all economics professors
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Oct 20, 2023 16:02
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:this is all economics professors Lol right? They also told you about that time a student sued them cause the theory didn't work and they went to court and said "yes I taught them that but these are all the assumptions they didn't check". Also about how president Truman demanded the one armed economist. And also how economists have predicted the last 7 of 5 recessions.
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Oct 20, 2023 16:27
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Motronic posted:Many more have predicted equally or more dire occurrences that never came to pass. It's amazing how all of these predictions are memory holed except for the one idiot who guess right out of sheer luck dusts off their old "prediction" when it comes to pass and people think they're a genius. 
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Oct 20, 2023 20:05
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Lockback posted:Low, it's smoke but its being blown. The last economic report just came out showing a decrease in unemployment and a higher economic growth rate than predicted (which is potentially bad for people as it means we're still in inflation risk, but should be good for hitting targets if you're a business). The only exceptions is if you are working for an investment bank which are looking to cut workforce as money is not getting cheaper (though the M&A market is still pretty strong). Ya, I suppose predicting much of anything by them or me is mostly a fool's errand.
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Oct 20, 2023 21:53
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broken pixel posted:Just been told that my role has been frozen and that my income is capped below the amount necessary to compensate for the inflation that's occurred over the last year. It's the same thing as my last job! Happy 2 year work anniversary to me! I haven't received a raise since working retail! It's not like I didn't expect something like this could happen, but I'm beginning to depression spiral over the fact I have to jump jobs, again, to get a raise. I'd think that it's because I've been persistent in asking about raises for myself, and for my coworkers, but the manager I spoke to about it agrees and has discussed the same topic with his other reports. In a somewhat related follow-up, I asked for some time off in December since I hadn't been on vacation with my husband... ever. The longest time I took off earlier this year was for surgery, but otherwise, I've been on the schedule barring brief illness. I asked for a week, while noting that I'd be able to engage in meetings and converse with the team on (reasonable) request. Since my role shift, I had been focusing on bringing the project I had already been working on to completion. I sent the request in a few days ago. Long story short, my request has been denied, for the first time ever, because I haven't had time to prove that I meet expectations with the sudden role shift. I didn't even have the details of the intent of my new role—which frankly, on paper, was a barely modified version of my old role—until today. No one else does what I do at the company. If I stopped the project, it would have been up to Engineering to design at best, or dead at worst. I spent this week working hard on a project that I've been told repeatedly by our team (and our customers) needs to happen. I thought that, perhaps, the quality of work I did there would mean something, but nah. Have I not been meeting expectations so far? Literally what could I have done? I asked these questions, but the vague response was, "You haven't shown that you can do the new role yet," and "We already have time off in December" (note: the "office" was closed the last two years but we still worked, especially the 18th-22nd and 27th-31st). Time to stare at UX job listings until they stare back (and offer decent benefits)!
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Oct 21, 2023 02:03
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broken pixel posted:In a somewhat related follow-up, I asked for some time off in December since I hadn't been on vacation with my husband... ever. The longest time I took off earlier this year was for surgery, but otherwise, I've been on the schedule barring brief illness. I asked for a week, while noting that I'd be able to engage in meetings and converse with the team on (reasonable) request. Since my role shift, I had been focusing on bringing the project I had already been working on to completion. Jesus, that sucks. I'm making a mental note to DM you when we start our next round of UX hires.
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Oct 21, 2023 03:22
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Trabant posted:I had an economics professor who joked that economists accurately predicted seven of the last three recessions. "If you took all of the economists on the planet and laid them out end to end, they wouldn't even reach a conclusion." broken pixel posted:In a somewhat related follow-up, I asked for some time off in December since I hadn't been on vacation with my husband... ever. The longest time I took off earlier this year was for surgery, but otherwise, I've been on the schedule barring brief illness. I asked for a week, while noting that I'd be able to engage in meetings and converse with the team on (reasonable) request. Since my role shift, I had been focusing on bringing the project I had already been working on to completion. How cool are you with your boss, and do they know about it? You can probably get them to override it, since this is probably just a flowchart based decision.
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Oct 21, 2023 03:49
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broken pixel posted:In a somewhat related follow-up, I asked for some time off in December since I hadn't been on vacation with my husband... ever. The longest time I took off earlier this year was for surgery, but otherwise, I've been on the schedule barring brief illness. I asked for a week, while noting that I'd be able to engage in meetings and converse with the team on (reasonable) request. Since my role shift, I had been focusing on bringing the project I had already been working on to completion. I’m a UX designer, I’m so curious about what this new role is and what the expectations are. Also you should just find a new job this place sounds like it blows. I work at a major tech company with unlimited vacation - I know I know - but they actually seem like they don’t mind if you take it? The BA on my project left for three weeks earlier this year to go climb to Everest base camp and as far as I could tell no one batted an eye.
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Oct 21, 2023 06:13
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Lockback posted:Jesus, that sucks. I'm making a mental note to DM you when we start our next round of UX hires. That's incredibly kind of you, thank you! poo poo, let me know what you're looking for in candidates when it comes around, and I may know other folks, too. Volmarias posted:How cool are you with your boss, and do they know about it? You can probably get them to override it, since this is probably just a flowchart based decision. We're a "flat company" (ha ha ha), and while there's an org chart, there is literally 10 people in the company. I'm cool with my boss usually, but this kinda kneecapped our relationship on my end. I keep wondering if I had been given more clarity on the role shift a month ago if I could've laid out the research plan as we move in on new customers, but I was changed over after being told, repeatedly, that we'd look at shifting me into a better spot. This is... not. To be honest, I have no clue who actually gave the final decision. He could be saying it's "out of his control" to cover it up. The only person technically above him is the CEO, then there's The Board. The Board does not speak to my tier of person. I did briefly inquire with HR about the status of December team vacations and there's no conflicts. Unlimited PTO policy feeling really strained at the moment, not gonna lie. Honestly, I'm going to see if the fam we're visiting can make time for us near the end of December. I really didn't want to make their lives any busier than it already is in late Dec., but I want to see my little nephew. He's adorable and worth finding time for!  Awkward Davies posted:I’m a UX designer, I’m so curious about what this new role is and what the expectations are. I was hired as a "UI/UX Designer," which involved about 50/50 research and design work, flexing depending on needs and stage of the product. It's more than a person should do in theory, but they were letting me strike a balance there. I've been shifted to "Product Designer." Based on what was described to me, I'm being asked to do work on the level of our previous Product Manager did, for less compensation (about 90-95% qualitative/quantitative research and product direction to 5-10% design). I could get more in depth, but that's the gist. There's no other product team people right now, so all of it's on me. I've taken up to a week off here before and never received pushback. This is new and feels like an ill omen. I have a person telling me they want to stay and value my work, then I receive a lot of messaging that either he's lying or someone else does not want me there.  Thankfully for me, I'm not ashamed to leave.Edit Followup: Awkward Davies posted:Oof. Get out of there. You’re being asked to do a job you weren’t hired for, not compensated fairly for, with what sounds like little support, you’re the only person doing the role and also you don’t have any power or say and they won’t even let you take PTO? broken pixel fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 06:32
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broken pixel posted:That's incredibly kind of you, thank you! poo poo, let me know what you're looking for in candidates when it comes around, and I may know other folks, too. Oof. Get out of there. You’re being asked to do a job you weren’t hired for, not compensated fairly for, with what sounds like little support, you’re the only person doing the role and also you don’t have any power or say and they won’t even let you take PTO? gently caress that.
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Oct 21, 2023 06:45
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Awkward Davies posted:Oof. Get out of there. You’re being asked to do a job you weren’t hired for, not compensated fairly for, with what sounds like little support, you’re the only person doing the role and also you don’t have any power or say and they won’t even let you take PTO? I think your expectations are way off base here. A reality of 10 person companies, particularly for roles that arent directly bringing in cash like sales or the service-doers for service based businesses, is wearing many hats and changing needs. This usually fades away for those types of roles by ~50 people for most companies. I'd be surprised if a 10 person company other than a very design focused silicon valley consumer product company (e.g. early Squarespace or Twitter) had both a product designer and a UI/UX designer. I'd expect the Product Designer to be a founder with the related corporate and managerial responsibilities if they did. broken pixel posted:That's incredibly kind of you, thank you! poo poo, let me know what you're looking for in candidates when it comes around, and I may know other folks, too. I run (soon to be ran as I'm selling my ownership to my cofounder soon) an 11 person company. I read this and your other recent posts and here are unsolicited thoughts that I hope can help you decide on what to do. - You work at a tiny company that probably has some combo of: 1) not doing as well as it hoped and 2) not happy with your performance. - Your experience of shifting titles and wearing many hats is what you should expect at a 10 person company. The idea that youll just (or often even primarily) do whats in your job description is very often not the case as needs shift and realities of money shift. As mentioned above, this is particularly likely for roles like yours. The upside is the chance to break into new role, e.g. Product Management. If that unpredictability is not to your liking you should probably find a larger company. - Tiny companies often have managers who arent great and who don't primarily manage as their duties. The denying december PTO thing is odd and if it were me I'd politely seek out more guidance from my manager regarding my responsibilities, role, performance then if that convo went well I'd broach the december PTO again soon after. Its hard to gauge from your post what the thickness of the ice is below you so tread carefully. - IDK why youd ever talk to the board of directors at a small company except maybe a non-profit scenario. Its not about "talking to your tier" its that they dont know anything about the operation of the company. IME the board is there for corporate governance poo poo and to keep investors happy by baby sitting the owners. IDK what would you all could even talk about. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 13:05
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Awkward Davies posted:Oof. Get out of there. You’re being asked to do a job you weren’t hired for, not compensated fairly for, with what sounds like little support, you’re the only person doing the role and also you don’t have any power or say and they won’t even let you take PTO? Save As -> startups_not_even_once.txt
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Oct 21, 2023 13:09
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One of the advantages of working at a small company is being able to work around stupid bureaucracy, but them saying "Sorry, you don't have the minimum required time to take PTO" is just the worst of all worlds instead.
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Oct 21, 2023 15:16
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CarForumPoster posted:I think your expectations are way off base here. A reality of 10 person companies, particularly for roles that arent directly bringing in cash like sales or the service-doers for service based businesses, is wearing many hats and changing needs. This usually fades away for those types of roles by ~50 people for most companies. I'd be surprised if a 10 person company other than a very design focused silicon valley consumer product company (e.g. early Squarespace or Twitter) had both a product designer and a UI/UX designer. I'd expect the Product Designer to be a founder with the related corporate and managerial responsibilities if they did. I have experience working for a start up with less than 10 people. I've been in the position of being in roughly the same position as broken pixel. I get that start ups are tough, but I don't think this specific start up sounds like it has this person's back. If they treated them better/showed a little more faith in them it would be different. Edit: I get that they need to be flexible and agile, but the answer to that being "treat people poorly because we can" seems really lovely Awkward Davies fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 15:20
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The whole "bUt It'S a StArt-Up" mentality bothers me. If you have equity, fine, you're bought in to the success of the company and you can put up with some poo poo. If you don't have equity then it's just a shittier job. Sure, there are some benefits in that they teach you to be extremely independent, think on your feet, make you versatile. But meanwhile you're miserable? And in this case, under paid? And do the supposed learnings really transfer over that much into a career at a more corporate and larger company? IME working for a larger employer is more about figuring out how to navigate the system, who to talk to, how to make friends with people, who is responsible for what. A lot of the time if you go charging off to do something on your own that's not great.
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Oct 21, 2023 16:19
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Lockback posted:One of the advantages of working at a small company is being able to work around stupid bureaucracy, but them saying "Sorry, you don't have the minimum required time to take PTO" is just the worst of all worlds instead. Emptyquoting
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Oct 21, 2023 16:21
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If you're working in that environment without any equity you're not an employee, you're a hostage.
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Oct 21, 2023 16:26
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Lockback posted:One of the advantages of working at a small company is being able to work around stupid bureaucracy, but them saying "Sorry, you don't have the minimum required time to take PTO" is just the worst of all worlds instead.
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Oct 21, 2023 16:27
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Awkward Davies posted:I don't think this specific start up sounds like it has this person's back. If they treated them better/showed a little more faith in them it would be different. Yea completely agree here. I think OP probably needs to move jobs. I shoulda edited my reply to you to only hit the part I was focusing on, the "not in my job description" angle. Ultimately I think your advice is likely correct, though other stuff that we dont know about OP and that job could change that. Lockback posted:One of the advantages of working at a small company is being able to work around stupid bureaucracy, but them saying "Sorry, you don't have the minimum required time to take PTO" is just the worst of all worlds instead. Agree. If the opportunity to grow your experience and fringe benefits from a small company dont exist or dont fit your personality then you just end up eating a poo poo sandwich.
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Oct 21, 2023 17:01
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Awkward Davies posted:And do the supposed learnings really transfer over that much into a career at a more corporate and larger company? This does translate, though you don't need to work at a startup* necessarily, but if you want to move from Role A to Role B, small companies are usually way easier to wear different hats and do different things, which gets you past the ramp up barrier. Depending where you are in your career and where you want to go, working smaller places can absolutely be a great idea, even if it means trading some short term earnings for longer term prospects. That's not universal for everyone, though. I mean basically in Broken Pixel's case they could build a resume highlighting the UX side and another highlighting the Product Management side and basically have two parallel tracks for the next step. But that's not worth being taken advantage of in such a way that "Can I have a vacation 2 months from now" is shot down pointlessly. *Here defining startup as still relying on investment vs just a small company that may not be growing fast but is still reasonably viable/profitable
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Oct 21, 2023 17:18
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Awkward Davies posted:The whole "bUt It'S a StArt-Up" mentality bothers me. At what point do startups stop offering equity? My wife is looking at applying to a start up and I’ve given her a whole bunch of reasons (cherry-picked from this thread) that they’re a bad idea, but if they’re offering equity, that might(?) be worth it.
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Oct 21, 2023 19:03
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Cacafuego posted:At what point do startups stop offering equity? Do you personally know the founders, or are you the investor financing them? If not, you're not going to get equity. Equity should definitely not be confused with options (which you aren't actually allowed to exercise).
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Oct 21, 2023 19:15
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Lockback posted:But that's not worth being taken advantage of in such a way that "Can I have a vacation 2 months from now" is shot down pointlessly. Yea this is what makes me wonder what I'm missing from the story. If I got told something like this with the reasoning provided I'd assume theyre attempting to get me to quit or that theres something that I dont know and cant be told yet. It'd definitely be time to have a conversation with my boss and see whats up. Eric the Mauve posted:Do you personally know the founders, or are you the investor financing them? If not, you're not going to get equity. Equity should definitely not be confused with options (which you aren't actually allowed to exercise). Youre right but we can probably assume everyone ITT who says "equity" probably means options. If they dont mean options they wanna think about the tax consequences of getting offered shares cause you gotta pay taxes on them at their current FMV usually based on a 401(a) valuation or a previous round. For example if the terms are you get 1% of the $20M valued company you'll have to pay taxes on (at minimum) $200,000. Also I'm not sure what options would exist that you "arent allowed to exercise". Options are a contract to buy shares with some conditions. If you meet those conditions you can buy (exercise) them. Whether you should or not is a question beyond the scope of this post. If you are within the terms of the options contract and want to exercise them saying no is likely them in breach. Cacafuego posted:At what point do startups stop offering equity? My wife is looking at applying to a start up and I’ve given her a whole bunch of reasons (cherry-picked from this thread) that they’re a bad idea, but if they’re offering equity, that might(?) be worth it. Many big tech companies (Apple, Facebook, etc.) offer employee stock purchase plans and RSU grants as part of their compensation so...never. In fact getting straight equity in the form of RSUs is actually more common once a "startup" IPOs. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 19:15
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Yeah and as you no doubt know, typically the conditions are IPO, or IPO+other conditions. What I'm trying to get across is that 99.99% of the time, when you're negotiating compensation with a startup that wants to hire you, the proper valuation of stock options is $0.
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Oct 21, 2023 19:26
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Eric the Mauve posted:Yeah and as you no doubt know, typically the conditions are IPO, or IPO+other conditions. I've literally never seen that. Usually what I see is an option vesting schedule of 4 years w/ 1 year cliff with some named strike price tied to the last round or a 409(a) valuation + some exercise window to buy them or lose them if the employee leaves or is terminated. The exercise windows can be all over the place, I've seen 90 days to 10 years. But if they say...stay 24 months and thus vest 50% of their options and then exercise their options by writing a check to the company and then quit the next day...they have equity. They may be able to sell that equity on a secondary market, or they may not, but they bought it and own it. EDIT: Here are some examples for those who want details: https://www.clerky.com/yc-stock-plan-forms EDIT2: To make sure I wasnt talking out of my butt about the sales value I skimmed the transferability restrictions upon exercising and you have to give them company notice you're selling the shares and offer to let them purchase them. They have 30 days to elect to pay you the same amount (e.g. maybe they want to avoid a change in control putting some investor in control). So you can sell them under those agreements. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 19:32
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OK yes, you are right, and what I said is at best seriously misleading. It would be better to say that you may have exercisable options, but in the (very unlikely) event they turn out to be worth anything, your ability to turn them into cash is severely restricted.
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Oct 21, 2023 19:55
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I'd like to play devils advocate and say here is a scenario where you may find your options are very valuable pre IPO at an unprofitable startup. You get an offer to join a startup that just raised a Series A led by a brand name investor like A16Z, Accel, Khosla, Greylock. The offer is $100k/yr in cash and stock options vesting once a year for up to 4 years for 100,000 shares locked to the Series A valuation of $50M, pretend this works out to be $2/share. So you get to give the company $200,000 to purchase those shares if you want them. You get one of the previously linked stock option plan contracts where you have 90 days to exercise if you quit. You join and the founders seem focused, the revenue/usage is growing faster than they can keep up with. Customers love this product. The people you work with seem decently smart. The company has a series B and then a series C and is now valued at $250M 5 years later. Rumors of a Series D or an IPO are swirling. You decide you wanna quit, and you get in touch with an investor who would want to buy those shares if you exercised them, they say they'll pay the option price and value them at $5 per share, a great deal for you because you'll net $300,000 and not even have to put up the money! You take the appropriate steps to have a contract made and comply with the exercise therms. The investor puts up the $200k and wires you $300K once the transaction occurs. Thats how you can make an easy $300k pre IPO selling shares. I've never met someone who has actually done this that wasnt a VERY early employee, e.g. pre Series A. EDIT: Also because the money increase wouldnt be that much, you're unlikely to make much (<$100K) money unless you're in at the Seed/Series A timeframe. EDIT 2: Lets say you were pre Series A and the company's seed 409(a) valuation was like $2M. Now you'd get closer to the full $500K because the strike price is much lower than the original $2. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 20:09
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There's charts from past IPOs out there showing what people made. My take away was that even the incredibly successful IPOs or sales didn't make much money for employees hired past a crazy low number. And the majority it was $0 or close to it.
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Oct 21, 2023 20:09
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Xguard86 posted:There's charts from past IPOs out there showing what people made. What's a crazy low number? Because everyone under 600 or so at twilio walked away with two commas.
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Oct 21, 2023 20:17
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I joined 2.5 years before my company IPO’d in Q4 2021. If able to sell at the IPO price, I would have cleared $300k. Instead, by the time the lockup happened, the market started falling and only ended up making around $30k post tax. Not nothing, but there were moments that the stock was below my strike price. I ended up making more than that in a signing bonus at a larger public company few months after getting laid off from the newly public company. And looking at that company now, it’s far under my strike price. So even going public is no guarantee to it being profitable to anyone but early employees or VP+. I still would recommend start-ups if the salary and work-life balance is right. I appreciate having a bit more autonomy and impact at a smaller company than being a cog in a huge company. Big chance to learn lots of different skills too. But not respecting PTO… that’s a red flag no matter what size the company is.
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Oct 21, 2023 20:23
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Motronic posted:What's a crazy low number? Because everyone under 600 or so at twilio walked away with two commas. Yea I'm curious too, would love to see the graphs. I'd tend to assume the answer is "Series A or better" That said, in 2020 a Series C company only had a 22% chance of a "successful exit" according to: https://dealroom.co/uploaded/2020/08/Probability-2.pdf No idea how accurate that is. Series A was only 12%... ...so 1 in 8 chance of options being worth it. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 20:29
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I think it's better to say you should never count on the money from options (or similar things like shadow equity) but I think sometimes this thread severely under estimates your chances of getting something from them. The important thing is to not assume an option is a sure thing like base pay and walk away from an extra $50k a year for a chance to maybe make $200k after 4 years.
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Oct 21, 2023 20:31
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You also have to price in the risk of your employer running out of money and abruptly dissolving, possibly after trying to con you into working for free for a while first. Which is the normal and usual destination for startups.
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Oct 21, 2023 20:51
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Series A or earlier. I thought that chart was posted here so maybe someone else has it. Showed various exits with what people made.
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Oct 21, 2023 20:58
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