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do staggered enemies in DT take more damage like in vermintide?
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Oct 20, 2023 11:41
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:Speaking of axes, are the blessings still brutal + headtaker or are the buffed blessings worth looking at now? My armchair theorizing is that BM is now a solid choice with a particular niche, but is no longer the slam pick BiS blessing it used to be. Try experimenting with other blessings, I'll have to give some different things a shot myself. uncalled for! posted:do staggered enemies in DT take more damage like in vermintide? As a baseline they do not. There is a particular blessing on a weapon where hitting them while staggered makes them take more damage, but it's limited to certain weapons types.
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Oct 20, 2023 13:34
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megane posted:What even is the distinction you are trying to make? Can you give an example of a nerf that's clearly "balancing playstyles against challenge" and clearly not "balancing playstyles against each other"? How about vice versa? Seems to me there's no difference except your opinion of whether the nerf is somehow "valid," or if the thing being nerfed was "fun". If they lower Assail's damage, will that be the bad kind of nerf or the good kind? What if they were to nerf, I dunno, the psyker's base HP? Do your answers change if they said it was purely because of expected survival times for pox hound packs and had nothing to do with anything other players are doing? Or do we have to put some sort of electrodes on the devs' temples to see if they were thinking about another playstyle while typing in the new numbers? The point is that measuring playstyles against each other is a pointless exercise. Assail should be nerfed, but not because it's better than brain burst or smite or anything else. Assail should be nerfed because it trivializes the game since you get to plow your way through any challenge with instakill homing projectiles. This would be true even if Assail was literally the only playstyle in the game. Measuring playstyles against each other results in worse design decisions and the gradual sanding down of variety in the name of parity. I'm not going to say that Fatshark are doing this currently because I haven't seen a lot of evidence to suggest that they are, but there is always a large subset of players of any co op game that clamor for the developers to balance the game like this. Sometimes, they listen, and it doesn't go well.
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Oct 20, 2023 13:58
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Why can't the ogryn get a concrete chunks hammer like a crusher can Give those heretics a taste of their own medicine
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Oct 20, 2023 14:06
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I'm gonna have to give DT a break again because I cannot stomach dragging more console idiots through Damnation+ games anymore. Goddamn. Being bad is one thing but why are you still facewalking into DH's at 30+ ? Why are you still getting mobbed to death by two whole poxwalkers while you have your gun out? What the gently caress?!
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Oct 20, 2023 14:11
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Fishstick posted:I'm gonna have to give DT a break again because I cannot stomach dragging more console idiots through Damnation+ games anymore. Goddamn. Being bad is one thing but why are you still facewalking into DH's at 30+ ? Why are you still getting mobbed to death by two whole poxwalkers while you have your gun out? What the gently caress?! I wouldn't go blaming that on console players solely lol, that's just a symptom of a massive influx of new players finally hitting the point of being able to dip toes into Damnation. Auric pubstove still feels fine anecdotally, or if you're brave you can join the goon 'tide discord, we generally have 2 groups running most days, one is only more common when it's really early or really late.
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Oct 20, 2023 14:23
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A Cool Video Game Too posted:I wouldn't go blaming that on console players solely lol, that's just a symptom of a massive influx of new players finally hitting the point of being able to dip toes into Damnation. Every single time it's been the non-Steam icon so its either Gamepass or Xbox players, and given that they seem to be playing with controllers, I'm gonna guess it's the latter. It is excruciating to watch some vet up ahead get buttstabbed by a zombie and then slooooooowly rotate around to deal with it.
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Oct 20, 2023 14:26
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cock hero flux posted:The point is that measuring playstyles against each other is a pointless exercise. Assail should be nerfed, but not because it's better than brain burst or smite or anything else. Assail should be nerfed because it trivializes the game since you get to plow your way through any challenge with instakill homing projectiles. This would be true even if Assail was literally the only playstyle in the game. Measuring playstyles against each other results in worse design decisions and the gradual sanding down of variety in the name of parity. I'm not going to say that Fatshark are doing this currently because I haven't seen a lot of evidence to suggest that they are, but there is always a large subset of players of any co op game that clamor for the developers to balance the game like this. Sometimes, they listen, and it doesn't go well. Ah right, "bad things will happen, trust me, I've seen it many a time (I will not be giving specific examples)." Well, I disagree; we absolutely should balance Assail against Smite and Brain Burst: they are equivalent slots in the psyker tree. Every psyker build has to pick exactly one of them. When making that choice, people are usually going to pick whatever they think is best for their build, and as things stand that's going to be Assail most of the time, regardless of what their build is like otherwise. That's what kills variety, not some vague mechanism where balancing stuff will "sand things down" for which you can't give any examples. Before the patch, it was common for there to be talents that were blatantly better than others in the same column, and as a result nobody ever used the latter. Nobody used Psychic Flayer, because it was weak as hell - and importantly, was competing with two much better options. Nobody used Mind in Motion, or whatever the "apply Soulfire on BBing an elite to death" one was called. The result was much lower build variety in practice than the talent screen promised. e: Naturally, I don't mean you should balance Assail against, like, +15 toughness. They're not competing against each other in the tree. megane fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 14:52
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Fishstick posted:Every single time it's been the non-Steam icon so its either Gamepass or Xbox players, and given that they seem to be playing with controllers, I'm gonna guess it's the latter. It is excruciating to watch some vet up ahead get buttstabbed by a zombie and then slooooooowly rotate around to deal with it. oh yeah, I've noticed the slow turns finally too though my first time seeing it was in a Malice while helping another goon level. It was a low level pubbie Ogryn and watching them slow turn to whack some pox walkers on their butt was kinda funny. They were at least receptive to directions and would actually heal at medicae stations, so it was entertaining babysitting them rather than frustrating, but I can see where dealing with that on Damnation would be very frustrating.
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Oct 20, 2023 15:08
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megane posted:Ah right, "bad things will happen, trust me, I've seen it many a time (I will not be giving specific examples)." Well, I disagree; we absolutely should balance Assail against Smite and Brain Burst: they are equivalent slots in the psyker tree. Every psyker build has to pick exactly one of them. When making that choice, people are usually going to pick whatever they think is best for their build, and as things stand that's going to be Assail most of the time, regardless of what their build is like otherwise. That's what kills variety, not some vague mechanism where balancing stuff will "sand things down" for which you can't give any examples. Before the patch, it was common for there to be talents that were blatantly better than others in the same column, and as a result nobody ever used the latter. Nobody used Psychic Flayer, because it was weak as hell - and importantly, was competing with two much better options. Nobody used Mind in Motion, or whatever the "apply Soulfire on BBing an elite to death" one was called. The result was much lower build variety in practice than the talent screen promised. If people are picking one option exclusively then the problem is that the other two are not good enough or not fun enough. If there is an option that is both enjoyable and successful then at least some people will pick it on preference regardless of whether there is another option that is technically better.
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Oct 20, 2023 15:17
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So what loadouts are all you Vet players playing with out there? I haven't really played mine since back in the day so he has the Kantrael MK12 and power sword combo that used to be OP but I find myself getting mobbed down pretty hard if I'm not careful. Both weapons still seem rather decent, but I'd like to swap the sword to a chain sword or axe if they are any good (well, at least when the store finally decides to grace me with one that isn't garbage anyway). edit: Also, I don't think 'Counter-Fire' is working very well as it seems very sporadic whether or not it actually lights up ranged enemies.
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Oct 20, 2023 15:25
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drat Dirty Ape posted:So what loadouts are all you Vet players playing with out there? I haven't really played mine since back in the day so he has the Kantrael MK12 and power sword combo that used to be OP but I find myself getting mobbed down pretty hard if I'm not careful. Both weapons still seem rather decent, but I'd like to swap the sword to a chain sword or axe if they are any good (well, at least when the store finally decides to grace me with one that isn't garbage anyway). Power Sword's a little weaker than it used to be because mooks got more health so they're bumping power sword numbers in the next patch #14 coming up. Chain Axe and Chain Sword are both very good at what they do so you'll have a good time. Devil's Claw swords got buffed for turbo ripostes and have good general performance vs crowds so they're a good Kantrael XII companion if you bring Krak nades for Crusher mobs. Both the combat axes and the tactical axes are pretty nice now and if you have a Rashad Mk2 or a Antax Mk5 combat axe with brutal momentum they're good vs single target and crowds alike. Shovel's really good for knocking crowds around and doesn't do a whole lot of actual damage so it's getting a numbers pass in patch #14 too. The guns are all good, just pick what you like and if it's a good single target gun bring a melee for crowds and vice versa. The counter-fire thing is that it wouldn't highlight scab stalkers which are half the scab shooters and that's also getting changed in patch #14 to highlight them.
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Oct 20, 2023 15:36
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40 Proof Listerine posted:Power Sword's a little weaker than it used to be because mooks got more health so they're bumping power sword numbers in the next patch #14 coming up. Nice, thanks for the advice. Also I'm currently talented mostly down the left side but still grabbing the '+5% crit chance' passive. I suspect that my overabundance of shooting/damage talents is part of my problem and I should probably switch out a few to make myself a little less of a glass cannon. Any talent recommendations?
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Oct 20, 2023 15:45
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drat Dirty Ape posted:So what loadouts are all you Vet players playing with out there? I haven't really played mine since back in the day so he has the Kantrael MK12 and power sword combo that used to be OP but I find myself getting mobbed down pretty hard if I'm not careful. Both weapons still seem rather decent, but I'd like to swap the sword to a chain sword or axe if they are any good (well, at least when the store finally decides to grace me with one that isn't garbage anyway). for the record you should not be using the regular store to fish for good weapons anymore, you should just be making them yourself. Use Brunt's Armoury to buy a bunch of the particular weapon you want, fishing for 360+ whites with the right dump stat. Keep any that roll below 310 stats as well to use to fish for t4 blessings via crafting them up as it's cheaper to upgrade those if you're just using them for blessing rips. Also try to do Melk contracts and keep an eye on his limited shop for important t4 blessings, preferably for a weapon you want to use prioritized. Use the blessing library you build up to customize your loadouts. edit: for the record I think combat and tac axes are in an okay spot now, but they are absolutely not good at hordes especially as a Vet. Brutal Momentum got reworked and no longer gives infinite cleave. Personal reccs are Chainsword and the Devil Claw Swords
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Oct 20, 2023 16:02
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drat Dirty Ape posted:Nice, thanks for the advice. Also I'm currently talented mostly down the left side but still grabbing the '+5% crit chance' passive. I suspect that my overabundance of shooting/damage talents is part of my problem and I should probably switch out a few to make myself a little less of a glass cannon. Any talent recommendations? Not a glass cannon problem, skill issue.  But for a build, I like running rending VID Recon Las, though this is going to see a nerf in the next patch. Get a VLD Recon Lasgun with Headhunter and Infernus Blessing. If you can swing it +crit chance perk as well. Run the tree below and laugh as you shred everything to hell in a handbasket. You can kill a Damnation crusher in under 3 seconds a mid range with it. Also don't have to follow the tree exactly, lots of small areas that you can move around if you want to go more shooty, more supporty, etc. Main points are getting Exploit Weakness and Rending Strikes for massive amounts of rending. But below is my preferred setup. I usually hold the blitz against a rush of melee elites (crushers, beserkers, maulers) and have frags with the regen talent to help soften up hordes. Devil claw Mk1 is my preferred melee pairing for better horde clear + parry special abuse. Shovel can work. And take a combat axe if you are running an Assassination mission so you can deal with the Vortex shield on the Scab Boss. 
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Oct 20, 2023 16:06
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The kantrael mk12 is still very good. Power sword got hit hard so I would avoid it until it gets buffed potentially in the next patch. Try the devil's claw swords. Mk1 expecially with its horizontal heavy attack.
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Oct 20, 2023 16:07
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I haven't played in a good long while, there any etiquette for moving into diff 3+, or just dive in? Looks like my Vet is 20, I was at 30 when I last played but I remade because the voice sucked rear end and you couldn't change it (can uh, can you change them now?  )
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Oct 20, 2023 16:09
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Wonder when they're gonna drop the new patch
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Oct 20, 2023 16:16
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victrix posted:I haven't played in a good long while, there any etiquette for moving into diff 3+, or just dive in? Just dive in to 3s. Move on to 4s and 5s as you feel comfortable. It's all a giant mess anyhow with the influx of console players, especially now that they're starting to run 5s. Oooorrrrr just join the Goon Tide server and dive straight into the crucible of Aurics. 
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Oct 20, 2023 16:27
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cock hero flux posted:See, you've got the reasoning wrong here. It was not "more important" that there were better options. It was not at all important. What was important was that it was, as you say, "weak as hell". If they had responded by nerfing the poo poo out of the other options to make them just as bad as Psychic Flayer, would that have solved the problem, in your opinion? What if they simply removed Psychic Flayer altogether? Both of these fully accomplish the goal you're saying they should be following.
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Oct 20, 2023 17:00
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Something I've been working on, how long various weapons take to break the Scab Boss's Vortex Shield https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQ1vw_ZcZdfvczdDqcyD2j58Xa1BiqArTxg7F58924PuveI3-AY0FOS-_JFcT1-OzfTqnl9TDC15w1V/pubhtml 
.Z. fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 17:13
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.Z. posted:Something I've been working on, how long various weapons take to break the Scab Boss's Vortex Shield I was actually looking for your old version yesterday to get a good idea of things since I'm trying new classes this time around. Nice work
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Oct 20, 2023 17:22
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megane posted:I never said that balancing them against each other was the only goal. They should all be fun and useful. But I actually liked Kinetic Flayer, it was simply overshadowed by other, better options. If it had been competing with other, equally mediocre options, that would have been fine, and indeed that's the case post-patch. It's completely unchanged in functionality, but it's just a random leaf node now, so the opportunity cost is just 1 talent point. So I take it. Yes, I remember encountering you before, and I remember that you seem to feel obligated to take whatever the most optimal option is regardless of what you actually want to be doing. So, my hypothetical, obviously bad example of "what if they just nerfed everything to be equally trash?" is, in fact, your actual opinion and something you would be genuinely fine with. You are entitled to it, but my own opinion is that designing a game based on this line of thinking is a very bad idea.
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Oct 20, 2023 17:25
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.Z. posted:Something I've been working on, how long various weapons take to break the Scab Boss's Vortex Shield Thank you for this.
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Oct 20, 2023 17:33
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cock hero flux posted:Yes, I remember encountering you before, and I remember that you seem to feel obligated to take whatever the most optimal option is regardless of what you actually want to be doing. So, my hypothetical, obviously bad example of "what if they just nerfed everything to be equally trash?" is, in fact, your actual opinion and something you would be genuinely fine with. You are entitled to it, but my own opinion is that designing a game based on this line of thinking is a very bad idea. You should read the thing you're quoting before you quote it! Here, I'll help: megane posted:I never said that balancing them against each other was the only goal. They should all be fun and useful.
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Oct 20, 2023 19:46
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cock hero flux posted:Yes, I remember encountering you before, and I remember that you seem to feel obligated to take whatever the most optimal option is regardless of what you actually want to be doing. So, my hypothetical, obviously bad example of "what if they just nerfed everything to be equally trash?" is, in fact, your actual opinion and something you would be genuinely fine with. You are entitled to it, but my own opinion is that designing a game based on this line of thinking is a very bad idea. There's a lot of assumptions happening in this post and this is probably the last post I'll make on the topic because it's clear that people have... strong opinions. Why do people make build choices? Some people like to tinker; they tweak one talent and then see how it feels and if it feels fun they tweak it some more until their build feels really good to them. 'Feels good' is going to come down to a couple of things, but it's some combination of success and minute-to-minute effectiveness. Darktide's builds aren't really 'playstyles' per se; I can do a 'speedy zealot' build a number of ways and 'speedy zealot' becomes the goal post. So within my experimental build 'speedy zealot' I might try a bunch of little changes, tweak talents, try different weapons, and each time I'm going to compare what I did to what I'm doing and see what 'feels' better. So the process of experimentation is literally comparing choices; the difference is that the subjective experience of which choice 'feels' better is obviously not scientific. So some people will like Talent A for their Speedy Zealot and others will like Talent B. Except, we can imagine a talent so bad nobody takes it, and then you wind up with all or nearly all Speedy Zealots taking Talent A over Talent B. This means within the playstyle Speedy Zealot the choice between Talent A and Talent B isn't a real choice. Now I make no statements about the best way to address that problem. Maybe buff or rework Talent B, maybe nerf Talent A, maybe some compromise, maybe do nothing for a bit and see what data the community returns. Then of course you zoom out and you're trying to compare the choice between Speedy Zealot and Tanky Zealot. Tanky Zealot just wants to be able to take as much damage as possible. Maybe Tanky Zealot can make use of Talent B. If so, you do nothing, because you've discovered that this talent is only bad for specific playstyles. But what if Tanky Zealot is worse at staying alive than Speedy Zealot? Is the choice between Tanky Zealot and Speedy Zealot a real choice anymore? If Speedy Zealot is faster and twice as survivable as Tanky Zealot, is Talent B a real choice? There's a lot of hate in the gaming community for people who 'optimize' and I agree that perfect balance is essentially impossible. You want different builds to feel like horizontal progression, where you're not just doing more number better but also doing it in different ways, unlocking new approaches to problems and such, but Darktide doesn't really do that. A suboptimal choice is fine. How sub-optimal is a valid question when evaluating those kinds of choices; if it's just not as good as a similar option, that's probably fine, particularly if it makes up for it in some other way. Mostly choices between playstyles are going to be nonquantifiable gutfeels. I'll also say that social media engagement basically turbopowers the whole thing. People rush to the exit with their 'ULTIMATE PSYKER BUILD' and post obnoxious 12 minute youtube videos about which talents are good and which talents are trash, and like, that's just some guy's opinion that he's probably stealing verbatim from a different person's Reddit post because he uploads six darktide videos per day and can't afford to hire a writer. We're not having that discussion here. Balance is hard. There's no blanket solution to it and it mostly comes down to, 'is there a way to make every choice feel, potentially, good?' which isn't something done with a single patch, you shouldn't always nerf something, and a lot of it is going to come down to data mining. Mendrian fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 19:47
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Just added a new mod which admittedly I haven't used yet but it's rather basic so I doubt my usage review is needed, https://www.nexusmods.com/warhammer40kdarktide/mods/198 for "Prefer Auric" on the mission screen.
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Oct 20, 2023 20:10
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I know most vermintiders don't play solo, but has anyone tried running something with a Necromancer bot? I can't imagine they made an AI that can manage those skeletons well, but if they did, I imagine she'd be an s-tier party member for solo play.
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Oct 20, 2023 22:57
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big cummers ONLY posted:I know most vermintiders don't play solo, but has anyone tried running something with a Necromancer bot? I can't imagine they made an AI that can manage those skeletons well, but if they did, I imagine she'd be an s-tier party member for solo play. Honestly the Skeletons mostly manage themselves just fine when you aren't manually telling them what to do so having an AI Necromancer in the party should be plenty workable
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Oct 20, 2023 23:17
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big cummers ONLY posted:I know most vermintiders don't play solo, but has anyone tried running something with a Necromancer bot? I can't imagine they made an AI that can manage those skeletons well, but if they did, I imagine she'd be an s-tier party member for solo play. My response will be sort of the opposite of drrockso20. I routinely play the chaos wastes mode with between 1-3 friends and we set to private and have bots fill the other slots. VT2 bots are so loving bad that the best setup is to have your bots be built for tanking (for us that means Ironbreaker Dwarf and Warrior Priest Saltzpyre typically) so they can at least be damage and aggro sponges and not drain too much of your healing resources. Now with all of that said maybe the skeletons make Necro Sienna the tankiest of the Bright Wizard classes but I'd be surprised if she's better in the bot role than a Warrior Priest throwing bubbles or a dwarf tanking and drawing aggro. edit: so I guess the thrust of the question is really "did Fatshark make good VT2 AI for the bots?" and my answer is no, even before considering skeletons.
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Oct 20, 2023 23:37
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I'm more curious what Saltzpyre's voice lines are for Sienna being a necromancer, even Kruber.
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Oct 20, 2023 23:40
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:I'm more curious what Saltzpyre's voice lines are for Sienna being a necromancer, even Kruber. The voice lines in mission seem to be bugged right now, haven't heard a peep regarding her being a Necromancer, seems to work fine enough in the keep though
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Oct 20, 2023 23:43
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tangy yet delightful posted:edit: so I guess the thrust of the question is really "did Fatshark make good VT2 AI for the bots?" and my answer is no, even before considering skeletons. Fwiw I use an AI mod that makes the bots passable, at least to the degree that I can routinely clear legend maps with three bots (along with speccing them for this specific purpose). But yeah the third bot slot is highly competitive. I guess I'll see how she does tonight!
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Oct 21, 2023 00:52
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big cummers ONLY posted:Fwiw I use an AI mod that makes the bots passable, at least to the degree that I can routinely clear legend maps with three bots (along with speccing them for this specific purpose). But yeah the third bot slot is highly competitive. I guess I'll see how she does tonight! ahhh yeah even though I run DT mods I've never modded VT2, and tbh my friends would have to run the mod as I never host as I don't have all classes to 30 so my bots wouldn't be as good
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Oct 21, 2023 01:20
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VT2 bots are better than the vast majority of players imo. They aren't particularly good at killing things but they stay alive reasonably well and stick together. Legend feels very trivial with them; more than it does with most randos. They can't really hang on Cata, but very few people can. You can't expect a bot to meet the standards of someone who is extraordinarily good at the game.
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Oct 21, 2023 01:32
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Very interested in an admech character in Darktide that can send waves of servo skulls at the enemy Ala the Vermintide necromancer
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Oct 21, 2023 03:20
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The Demilich posted:Very interested in an admech character in Darktide that can send waves of servo skulls at the enemy Ala the Vermintide necromancer Ooooo I like that idea. So have a silly newbie question for you guys? What exactly are dregs? What do they look like? Trying to complete this weekly and chainsawing everyone but it’s slow moving. Still love my mk6 recon las and chainsword. Might try a regular sword but that chainsaw rev heavy kill is sooooo satisfyingingly 40k. Considering trying out plasma and bolter again. Is the bolter just a weaker plasma with extra kick?
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Oct 21, 2023 04:34
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DogsInSpace! posted:Ooooo I like that idea. I believe dregs are the guys in yellow rags. Skabs are the heretic guardsman.
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Oct 21, 2023 04:48
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drat Dirty Ape posted:So what loadouts are all you Vet players playing with out there? I haven't really played mine since back in the day so he has the Kantrael MK12 and power sword combo that used to be OP but I find myself getting mobbed down pretty hard if I'm not careful. Both weapons still seem rather decent, but I'd like to swap the sword to a chain sword or axe if they are any good (well, at least when the store finally decides to grace me with one that isn't garbage anyway). Been having fun with the recon laser gun, the one with 100 damage. Lots of crit chances and burn on crit so it melts bosses. I run with krak grenades (for the novelty), infiltrate (for rescuing downed comrades) and the ammo aura so I can shoot more
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Oct 21, 2023 04:51
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DogsInSpace! posted:Ooooo I like that idea. https://imgur.com/a/Selj5nI/layout/grid The health numbers are wrong now, but that's all the enemies and what armor type their body parts count as.
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Oct 21, 2023 04:51
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