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Mirage posted:The demons are like if wolves evolved the ability to sound like a crying human baby, taken to the nth degree. they remind me of peter watts' anthropological vampire theory (i don't know if it arose from any real science but in any case it's debunked now), that "vampires" are an atavistic homo sapiens offshoot evolved specifically to prey on people. they look the same and have superficially similar thought patterns but they generally don't relate to people as anything other than meat
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Oct 21, 2023 04:47
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yeah sci-fi deals with this concept more often than fantasy in my experience. still while it's not totally nuts to consider there might be some kind of future peace or non-aggression pact between Frieren-type demons and humans, it's not going to be as easy as the "humans with horns" or "humans are the bad guys, actually" fantasy variants.
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Oct 21, 2023 04:59
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GateOfD posted:bunch of people here that would get eaten by demons or fall for the forest phantom i'd have no issues with the phantom but the predator demons would have my number
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Oct 21, 2023 05:25
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Just thinking that the relatively short lives and therefore memory of humans isn't the huge negative it's usually portrayed as in stuff like this. Usually humans forgetting is the reason for conflict and the failure of peace, but here they're going to keep forgetting how bad demons are and
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Oct 21, 2023 05:45
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My understanding of the demons from what's been presented so far seems kind of like Koko the gorilla and how she "knew" sign language. She almost certainly didn't actually know how to communicate - she had no idea what the words she was signing meant, couldn't form sentences, never asked questions, etc. But she sure knew that when she put certain words in certain patterns, the humans would give her food or rewards or whatever, and that's all that really mattered. And, of course, she could have easily just ripped the arms off the humans caring for her at almost any moment if she decided to. CodfishCartographer fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 07:02
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only in this instance, koko's aim is to just rip arms off
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Oct 21, 2023 08:15
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Yeah, I'm not a fan of this plot development. It's novel, I guess, but I don't think subverting expectations is enough to justify it. Also predators can be tamed, where do you think cats came from
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Oct 21, 2023 15:58
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we all know how this forum's opinion of slaves is though, don't think domesticating the demons thru specific breeding is the solution
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Oct 21, 2023 15:59
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Lol. But like, the more I think about it, the more it bothers me. Like "demons only used human language to deceive people" is blatantly false, when they also use it to communicate with each other? If the idea is that demons don't have empathy, then why are they loyal to each other? Why are they all on team evil? And who teaches these demons anyway, how does the demon kid know about saying mama, is there a demonic kindergarten? If demons can be taught language, why can't they be taught obedience to rules? Do you really need empathy for coexistence anyway, why not sign a peace treaty if it just keeps you safe? Etc etc, it just bothers me Fangz fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 16:09
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Fangz posted:Lol. We start learning some of that through the series. I think the next episode will directly address loyalty between demons. As far as speech is concerned though, I think you're assuming the communication part came before deception as opposed to the other way around. I'd have to reread the manga, but the demon saying "mama" is meant to be an imitation of human children doing the same thing. If you look at their face, it's not actually depicting the emotion one would expect from a person doing the same thing. It's the same blank emotion they used to justify killing the mayor and taking his daughter. Also you don't necessarily need empathy for coexistence, but you absolutely need trust and some level of emotional understanding to have a peace treaty that isn't immediately broken when convenient.
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Oct 21, 2023 16:32
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No, my point is language is clearly being used for communication as well as deception, so the claim that it's one or the other is plainly false. You're not talking to chatgpt. Peace treaties have been drawn up between sides that completely hate each other and have lasted for a long time. You don't need empathy, you just need a logical recognition that war sucks. Demons don't wanna die and they don't need to kill humans, humans seem really scary in this setting (see how quick they adapted to and surpassed that killing spell) and hold a grudge, so why are they dumb? Sure you can burn one town, but what does that gain you? It's basic cause and effect. Fangz fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 16:42
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Frieren is very old so it makes sense that she is very racist
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Oct 21, 2023 17:04
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Fangz posted:No, my point is language is clearly being used for communication as well as deception, so the claim that it's one or the other is plainly false. You're not taking to chatgpt. obviously they use words to communicate with eachother too. "demons only used human language to deceive people" its a line saying its a tool they use to do it and will say anything to do it and to not put any value in what they say. Are you taking that phrasing literally? Do you need the context explained about why "People die when they are killed"
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Oct 21, 2023 17:09
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Fangz posted:Also predators can be tamed, where do you think cats came from "Taming" is only possible with non-sapient animals. That's why attempts to keep Chimpanzees as pets end with you getting your noses and various other parts ripped off, while it's actually possible to keep a Tiger at home if you do your homework and don't treat it like an rear end in a top hat. (Basic stuff like enough space to move, plenty of food and care, etc., with a Chimp, that won't work because the ape is actually almost sapient, and they will make their own decisions, sometimes really bad and self-destructive ones.) Edit: I should point this out because goons, please don't try to keep a Tiger as a pet, what is wrong with you?
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Oct 21, 2023 17:15
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I'd also note that the Demon Child didn't really set out to deceive, exactly - they did seem to be honestly trying to placate people they sensed danger from. It just had absolutely tragic results since they were unable to grasp the ideas of community (other people cared about the village leader), basic moral norms (you mustn't murder people) or family ties (the death of a child is not in any way mitigated by receiving another one). It does on some level make sense that a naturally solitary predator which doesn't raise its young would have no need for those concepts. The thing which is harder to explain at this point is how the Demons actually managed to come together as a nation (given that these ideas of morals and community would seem essential to any society), but I assume that will be explained at some point. Maybe there's some mechanism by which stronger demons can control weaker ones, with the nation's stability deriving from a huge hierarchy of demons bound to obey. e: that could also explain why taking out the "demon lord" would be so crippling, without a clear top dog the nation would probably fracture since the remaining lieutenants wouldn't be able to co-operate Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 17:36
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Fangz posted:Lol. i was talking with a friend about this yesterday and i was having issues similar to this when thinking about the demons. there's obviously a social hierarchy and intelligence with the demons and the way that they're written as something between mustache twirling generically evil people and predators using social mores to manipulate people did not land for me at all as a result.
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Oct 21, 2023 17:37
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Fangz posted:No, my point is language is clearly being used for communication as well as deception, so the claim that it's one or the other is plainly false. You're not talking to chatgpt. Speech isnt the only way to communicate. Body language, noises, pheromones are all used by other animals to communicate and are things that we still use. We developed speech because we are social animals that needed more refined ways to communicate with each other. Demons evolved it just to better hunt humans. Just the sheer difference in reasons to develop speech points to us that they dont need speech to communicate with each other if its necessary.
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Oct 21, 2023 18:39
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I feel like the story of a very long lived magic elf learning to recognize and connect with others while musing on how things change, journeying to the end the world where "heaven" is, which is also the site (or near?) of the demon king's castle apparently, might get into this sort of thing at some point. Also, demons have to be shown initially at least as pretty bad otherwise Himmel and Co are kinda jerks. VVV EDIT: lmao I used beholders instead of mindflayers now that BG3 exists GloomMouse fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 18:45
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its easier if you think of demons as being similar to like, mindflayers from D&D but with less cthulhu-y bits. you can communicate with them, but they operate on an entirely different thought process and the fact that they exist as a predator species feeding on humans means it's a very bad idea to do so.
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Oct 21, 2023 19:21
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FZeroRacer posted:but they operate on an entirely different thought process and the fact that they exist as a predator species feeding on humans means it's a very bad idea to do so. Correct, exactly just the same as ChatGPT
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Oct 21, 2023 19:26
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They're not an analog for any particular race, so  . If anything, they seem to be treated more like sociopaths. There was an attempt by the demon child to make amends, but he sorely misunderstood the emotional end of his actions. He tried. Some sociopaths can do well with therapy, other use it to learn how be be more manipulative. You are taking an increased risk trusting a sociopath, sucky as that is.I haven't read far into the manga, but I'm supposing it wouldn't have included that failed attempt by the demon child if there was zero hope for demons altogether. Again, he didn't act out of maliciousness; he tried to mend a wound he caused and failed. It was a tragedy on his end as well. Frieren's in the same boat to a lesser extent. I suspect she'll figure this out.
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Oct 21, 2023 21:00
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I mean, it was a tragedy for the demon in that it died. That's the only part of the situation that it would have cared about. The thing about demons in Frieren is that they're capable of understanding how humans think and feel, but understanding human motivations isn't the same thing as sharing them.
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Oct 21, 2023 21:45
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the fact that frieren could get out of jail or avoid going to jail if she simply invoked her name (or stark or fern did), but doesn't, kind of undercuts the whole thing to me. it'd be fine if this was the first time i guess, but this literally happened in the last episode as well.
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Oct 21, 2023 22:20
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Das Boo posted:I haven't read far into the manga, but I'm supposing it wouldn't have included that failed attempt by the demon child if there was zero hope for demons altogether. The manga does get into this later on. VAGUE MANGA SPOILER: A possibility is not the same thing as probability
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Oct 21, 2023 22:21
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the discomfort people feel with demons is extensible to the entire concept of the monster as it exists in this type of setting. they're not like, wild animals, where you wouldn't want to needlessly antagonize them if you can avoid doing so. you're supposed to fight monsters if you can in this setting, and it's not like there's some convenient transmutation of the problem into an economic form like you do it to grind xp or whatever. this is a category of existence that has no analogue in our reality, but it shapes theirs. this alien ontology has some evolutionary process we don't understand but can observe, and demons have converged on developing speech
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Oct 21, 2023 22:28
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Tabletops posted:the fact that frieren could get out of jail or avoid going to jail if she simply invoked her name (or stark or fern did), but doesn't, kind of undercuts the whole thing to me. it'd be fine if this was the first time i guess, but this literally happened in the last episode as well. In this case I think it's because she knows things are going to go sideways in the town (plus still being her unrushed self) and it's not like she can't just leave whenever she wants anyway. We aren't supposed to be like "oh no she's in jail, what will our heroine do?"
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Oct 22, 2023 00:17
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Yeah, Frieren doesn't seem to like using her name to get things done, especially not when the alternative is a mere two year wait. (Or considerably shorter than that, given what she knows about demons.)
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Oct 22, 2023 00:18
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In the first case, she wanted to hang around. fern and stark were the only ones doing any kind of investigations. In the second case, it still serves to be quiet and see what the demons are up to
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Oct 22, 2023 01:41
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also like considering she tried to attack peace envoys they probably still would have thrown her in prison for a little while anyways regardless of who she was, and like she's planning on breaking out anyways so it's not like it would have mattered
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Oct 22, 2023 01:45
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Frieren is the other side of demons. Demons hunt humans, can talk and aggressive towards them Frieren is indifferent (thought changing slightly). But for the most part, elves see humans as a human would treat a pet hamster. You can bond and care for them but they be gone in a year.
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Oct 22, 2023 01:50
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I'm aware that the overall course of the story will eventually give more nuanced discussions of the demons as a race. But this particular quartet? I'll be as upset with Frieren & crew giving them a dirt nap as I am with whoever dropped the barbell on Jeffrey Dahmer.
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Oct 22, 2023 02:35
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GateOfD posted:In the first case, she wanted to hang around. fern and stark were the only ones doing any kind of investigations. Also if she goes around dropping her name then the pesky humans will just annoy her endlessly with visitors and requests and banquets and pagaentry, it'd be a constant pain in the rear end
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Oct 22, 2023 08:43
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I think also people speaking of communication in this forget that this is a magical world -> all demons are magical -> Why would not the demons communicate with each other via magic?
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Oct 22, 2023 15:12
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If Demons are normally solitary creatures, perhaps having a social organization at all, and by extension talking to one another, is just as much an adaptation/imitation as talking with humans. Like no, normally demons may not have a hierarchy or talk to one another, but if they didn't, humans would wipe them out.
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Oct 22, 2023 15:16
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I just figure the Demon King was a remarkable/terrifying figure, able to unite an asocial species beneath his banner.
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Oct 22, 2023 18:54
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something to keep in mind about the flash back with the demon kid is that it's easy to see it as a tragic misunderstanding but the moment the demon notices everyone is rightfully pissed at them they immediately threaten to take the kid hostage. They are operating on a different logic / survival mode than humans are. Like the demon literally said, "gifting" the child to the parents wasn't some weirdly misplaced altruism. They sensed a continuous threat from the parents who rightfully wanted to kill their daughter's murderer and because they fundamentally do not understand human emotions they thought just gifting them any random child would get them off their back.
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Oct 22, 2023 18:58
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frieren was pretty clear about it, they can communicate but they cannot understand us and have no interest in doing so, its just a tool to help them stay alive against human reprisals or to secure prey. demon guy invoking a father is no different an adaptive tool than the lamp on an anglerfish or the bark patterning of a wood owl edit an easier way for someone to think of them is just as a straight up vampire. proper og vampire not modern twists or takes or whatever. theyre just as longlived, they eat humans and only see us as prey. but they have 0 ties back to anything resembling humanity because there was no turning that happened, no old memories or vestigal humanity in there. frieren used an almost ecological way of describing them, as simply more evolved predators, descended down from other monsters. human shaped mimic chests. Paper Lion fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Oct 22, 2023 |
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Oct 22, 2023 19:33
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The demons can communicate effectively and eloquently with humans but so can ChatGPT. We (as in the common population since I don't think actual scientists believed that ever) used to think something like the Turing Test can indicate human-like intelligence but it's pretty clear that isn't the case at this point. While I don't think the demons are at the level of ChatGPT (and keep in mind just because they have communication abilities between themselves and social structures doesn't mean they're in any way compatible with human ones), it's really telling how people tend to anthropomorphize things and assume they must be like humans.
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Oct 22, 2023 19:46
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Frieren was clear about it but it's not consistent with how it's depicted. ChatGPT bots don't ask each other what the word father means. The fact the demons ask each other that question implies some of them *do* have an interest in understanding people. When making plans like the peace treaty thing, they have a clear mental model of what people will do and how they will react that lets them act in novel situations. Except when the story doesn't want them to have that and has them murder a guy in front of a bunch of adventurers without any sense of self-preservation at all. They aren't written as animals, they are written as malicious people. Fangz fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Oct 22, 2023 |
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Oct 22, 2023 20:13
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Fangz posted:Frieren was clear about it but it's not consistent with how it's depicted. ChatGPT bots don't ask each other what the word father means. Cross communications between different LLMs and similar generative AI to teach concepts is already a thing. And ChatGPT already asks when faced with the unknown, often incorporating it well enough, after receiving an explanation, to be convincing. There have been many strong challenges to what we had held as beliefs about human communications in the very recent times. I have no idea what's next in this anime, but even ascribing malice to the demons may be premature. It could simply be the logical course of action for all I know so far (e.g., the supposition a poster above made about them being like amoral vampires). ChronoReverse fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Oct 22, 2023 |
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Oct 22, 2023 20:19
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