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It's again a false equivalency that treats the oppressor and the oppressed the same and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how Palestinians live.
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Oct 21, 2023 21:54
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i fly airplanes posted:Is Palestine also not an ethnostate government by these same standards? From my understanding, it's the same difficulty, which is why many left wing politicians like AOC in support of Palestinians have had to change their tone to "Hamas does not represent the Palestinian people" (however accurate or inaccaurate that may be). I'm pretty sure Palestine does not have a Being anti-Zionist simply means opposing the idea of the ethnostate and the various war crimes and crimes against humanity its existence necessitates. The term makes no declaration about the Jewish residents of Israel; just that Israel should not be a Jewish ethnostate. If you wanna get technical, both "Israel should recognize basic human rights" and "Israel should be a non-Jewish ethnostate" would be anti-Zionist sentiments, but someone who is deliberately conflating the two is not seeking nuance.
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Oct 21, 2023 22:01
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 22:02
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mannerup posted:normally like Axios, but this is lovely journalism
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Oct 21, 2023 22:09
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mannerup posted:normally like Axios, but this is lovely journalism Source: just trust me bro They really are running the post-9/11 playbook, and this is the anthrax scare.
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Oct 21, 2023 22:32
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Inferior Third Season posted:Google and Meta not tolerating even the most subdued and milquetoast of criticisms of Israel. He's since been pressured into resigning as CEO. But even that isn't good enough. They are saying he should divest entirely from the company.
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Oct 21, 2023 22:34
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mannerup posted:normally like Axios, but this is lovely journalism israeli officials previously said they would never lie, so this must be true
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Oct 21, 2023 22:38
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I'm pretty sure Palestine does not have a https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Issues/Racism/SR/NationalityImmigration/StatePalestine.pdf This OHCHR report demonstrates Palestinian nationality law (under the PNA) and the problem it has with Israel's laws. But that's nowhere near the conflict the PNA laws has with Hamas: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp For example, on my last visit to the West Bank/Palestine there are many Christian neighborhoods and the open sale of alcohol in Bethlehem; in Nablus you'll find nothing. And while open consumption is illegal, the PNA can't really enforce it because of Israeli extraterritoriality. Yet at the same time, they are banning LGBTQ organizations. There's a lot of conflicts in laws and lack of centralized authority. quote:Being anti-Zionist simply means opposing the idea of the ethnostate and the various war crimes and crimes against humanity its existence necessitates. The term makes no declaration about the Jewish residents of Israel; just that Israel should not be a Jewish ethnostate. If you wanna get technical, both "Israel should recognize basic human rights" and "Israel should be a non-Jewish ethnostate" would be anti-Zionist sentiments, but someone who is deliberately conflating the two is not seeking nuance.
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Oct 21, 2023 22:47
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i fly airplanes posted:There are plenty of ethnostates around the world and particularly in the Middle East, but I think portraying Palestine as a pluralist republic is dubious at bet. And references to Zionism are entirely appropriate in this context, particularly when discussing extraterritoriality and settlers in the West Bank.
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Oct 21, 2023 22:55
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Guys south Africa had some problems but have you considered that the bantustans were ethnostates?? I am just being an honest interlocutor here (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 21, 2023 23:07
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i fly airplanes posted:Is Palestine also not an ethnostate government by these same standards? From my understanding, it's the same difficulty, which is why many left wing politicians like AOC in support of Palestinians have had to change their tone to "Hamas does not represent the Palestinian people" (however accurate or inaccaurate that may be). Ideally those Jews already settled in Israel would remain where they are living despite the overall injustice of having successfully stolen that land because I can't think of any reasonable or rational event that would prompt a Second Great Diaspora, and the Palestinians would get their own state because I believe you're right that Palestine is also technically an ethnostate but only because Israel has created essentially a ghetto out of Gaza and West Bank and the Palestinians aren't allowed to leave, making it an ethnostate in fact but not in legality. They were forced into that by Israel without any alternative. Unfortunately, a two state solution seems to no longer be in the cards because of settlements and Israel has opted a more violent path. Edit: as a native american myself, I can tell you this is a very interesting line of conversation to have within our context as well but that's for a different thread HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 23:12
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mannerup posted:normally like Axios, but this is lovely journalism I personally make sure to carry an unencrypted digital record of my many secret evil plans every time I go on a raid. It's just common sense, WAY more useful than an extra magazine.
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Oct 21, 2023 23:15
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 23:26
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HonorableTB posted:Edit: as a native american myself, I can tell you this is a very interesting line of conversation to have within our context as well but that's for a different thread Yeah there are definitely some interesting parallels here between the Native American experience especially in regards to treaty rights (eg Jay Treaty) and Reconciliation that would be relevant. mannerup posted:I don't even think its technically an ethnostate under those parameters (e.g. Japan would be an ethnostate in fact but not in legality using that definition.) A country with jus sanguinis nationality laws, official language laws, and 95+% from one ethnic group is an ethnostate. Countries like UAE which majorly restrict citizenship, mandate Islam as the state religion, Arabic as the official language are also ethnostates. i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 23:31
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Fister Roboto posted:this is the anthrax scare So you're saying it's a real thing that unquestionably happened?
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Oct 21, 2023 23:31
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Shageletic posted:20 aid trucks when WHO says a hundred is needed per a day. Israel didn't open up the UN built terminal that could handle bigger aid imports. Wonder why. Yep, letting these trucks in is to just calm down international pressure on Israel and make it look like they are doing something that doesn't involve killing everyone in Gaza. 20 trucks isn't even the bare minimum though.
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Oct 21, 2023 23:38
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mannerup posted:I don't even think its technically an ethnostate under those parameters (e.g. Japan would be an ethnostate in fact but not in legality using that definition.) Can you explain? I'm not very familiar with Japanese political history or demographics except I know their ethnic homogeneity is pretty high when looking at their demographics. Ethnic Japanese people make up 97.6% of their population, that seems to be an ethnostate as well. E: updated demographic figure more recent puts ethnic Japanese at 98.5% of the population HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 23:40
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tagesschau posted:So you're saying it's a real thing that unquestionably happened? Actually more like saying it was(allegedly, they gave up when their second primary suspect committed suicide) an insiders attempt to get funding for a failing defense program gone wrong, cynically exploiting a moment of national tragedy, became the basis for a illegal war, and ultimately resulted in immense and unnecessary suffering.
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Oct 21, 2023 23:40
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i fly airplanes posted:Countries like UAE which majorly restrict citizenship, mandate Islam as the state religion, Arabic as the official language are also ethnostates. What about Malaysia? It does all that but I don't think you can call it an ethnostate given that >40% of citizens are not Malay or Muslim (Malay being a subset of Muslims as the constitution defines it as such). e: It also goes to great lengths for multicultural coexistence despite that (albeit with issues here and there). Private Speech fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 23:40
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i fly airplanes posted:For example, on my last visit to the West Bank/Palestine there are many Christian neighborhoods and the open sale of alcohol in Bethlehem; in Nablus you'll find nothing. And while open consumption is illegal, the PNA can't really enforce it because of Israeli extraterritoriality. Yet at the same time, they are banning LGBTQ organizations. There's a lot of conflicts in laws and lack of centralized authority. What on earth are you talking about? A state in which discrimination occurs or which fails to make accomodations for minority groups is not the same thing as an ethnostate. Purchasing alcohol is not a human right. Discrimination against LGBTQ groups is abhorrent, but those are not ethnic minorities. Israel has, as part of its constitutional framework, enshrined the discrimination against minorities as an ideological goal. You're going to have to specify what exact section of those links you think is equivalent to that, because I'm not seeing anything like it on a skim. i fly airplanes posted:When posters are using Zionism in a derogatory or charged fashion, I don't think they're seeking nuance, that's why I responded with that. There's no nuance to be had, Zionism is a project that demands either ethnic cleansing or apartheid, it warrants being used in a derogatory or charged manner. There are bad faith actors who frame their anti-Semitism as anti-Zionism, as well as ones who want to frame anti-Zionism as anti-Semitism, but the words have pretty clear definitions.
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Oct 21, 2023 23:40
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[Conquistadors crashing their ships into the new world] drat look at all these ethnostates this place is imperialist as gently caress
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Oct 21, 2023 23:47
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Private Speech posted:What about Malaysia? It does all that but I don't think you can call it an ethnostate given that >40% of citizens are not Malay or Muslim (Malay being a subset of Muslims as the constitution defines it as such). Malaysia can actually be argued as Apartheid. Their bumi putra policies are extremely divisive and a core of their national identity.
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Oct 21, 2023 23:49
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Dolash posted:[Conquistadors crashing their ships into the new world] drat look at all these ethnostates this place is imperialist as gently caress The people they met were all baby eaters. It's honestly crazy how often throughout history we have righteous groups protecting us from evil baby eaters. But hey, it's got to be true or else there wouldn't have been a reason to kill all the baby eaters.
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Oct 21, 2023 23:50
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i fly airplanes posted:Malaysia can actually be argued as Apartheid. Their bumi putra policies are extremely divisive and a core of their national identity. While they are definitely divisive and have their issues they were designed to help address inequalities between the largely poor Malay and relatively wealthier Chinese, which was somewhat successful. It's more akin to policies economically favouring indigenous Palestinians over later immigrants in a theoretical unitary state, using reserved government positions and wealth funds. They were also adopted to put stop to racial strife. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Oct 22, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 23:53
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In an effort to shift gears away from ethnostate discussion because it is getting kind of strange, IDF airstrikes on Gaza have drastically increased today and we now have confirmation from the IDF chief of staff that they will go through with a land invasion. quote:IDF Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Herzi Halevi to Golani commanders: “We will enter the Gaza Strip. We will begin an operational and professional mission to destroy the Hamas operatives, the Hamas infrastructure, and we will also keep in our minds the images, scenes, and the fallen from Shabbat two weeks ago. Gaza is complex, Gaza is dense, the enemy is preparing a lot of things there, but we are preparing things for them as well."
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Oct 21, 2023 23:53
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 23:59
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mannerup posted:https://twitter.com/StateDept/status/1715488061386260664 It's somewhat bizarre to me because they are on the one hand fully supporting these attacks but at least feel the need to pay some minor lip service to people who correctly are calling this attempted genocide.
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Oct 22, 2023 00:22
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i fly airplanes posted:There are plenty of ethnostates around the world and particularly in the Middle East, but I think portraying Palestine as a pluralist republic is dubious at bet. This is certainly an unusual tack to take here. You start by linking a UN report that describes in detail how the Palestinian Authority is far better about ethnic equality than Israel is, and then wave around the 1988 Hamas charter (which, among other things, was replaced in 2017) as an excuse to discount it completely? I don't see how open container laws or LGBTQ policies are relevant at all to the question of ethnostates. If you're trying to show that Palestine can't be an ethnostate because it's not currently a sovereign state at all, then that'd make sense, but I feel like that's not really what you're trying to get at here. i fly airplanes posted:A country with jus sanguinis nationality laws, official language laws, and 95+% from one ethnic group is an ethnostate. That's a rather unusual definition of "ethnostate". Generally, the word is more commonly used to describe states that impose legal disadvantages on non-preferred ethnicities, or even deny citizenship to non-preferred ethnicities altogether. For example, when South Africa revoked the citizenship of all black citizens in the late years of apartheid.
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Oct 22, 2023 00:33
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mannerup posted:https://twitter.com/StateDept/status/1715488061386260664
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Oct 22, 2023 00:44
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That is a mistranslation, she meant "you are in our sights"
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Oct 22, 2023 00:52
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Looks like CNN is also independently saying that the evidence supports the theory that it was not Israel bombing, but a Hamas Rocket. https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/cnn-investigates-forensic-analysis-gaza-hospital-blast/index.html
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Oct 22, 2023 01:18
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does anyone have proof that hamas had big enough rockets to blow up that many people, and why they didn't use explosives that massive against their enemies?
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Oct 22, 2023 01:23
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SirFozzie posted:Looks like CNN is also independently saying that the evidence supports the theory that it was not Israel bombing, but a Hamas Rocket. lol that they're asking all the people 'does it look like a jdam' or point of impact fused artillery as if those are the only possibilities smh. basically asking if it could be the only things that can actually be ruled out quote:Marc Garlasco, the former defense intelligence analyst and UN war crimes investigator, says there are signs of a lack of evidence at the Al-Ahli Hospital site. that part is good tho. whole site has been conspicuously free of any evidence of what hit the entire time, which is beyond weird. even in the immediate aftermath there was no rocket debris or anything else to be seen Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Oct 22, 2023 |
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Oct 22, 2023 01:26
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Dolash posted:[Conquistadors crashing their ships into the new world] drat look at all these ethnostates this place is imperialist as gently caress Colonialism apologizers unironically use "Aztec Empire was imperialist totalitarian state and practiced human sacrifice" as argument and believe Cortes was a good guy here. Spanish far-right party Vox recently celebrated anniversary of "liberation of Tenochtitlan".
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Oct 22, 2023 01:29
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Herstory Begins Now posted:lol that they're asking all the people 'does it look like a jdam' or point of impact fused artillery as if those are the only possibilities smh. basically asking if it could be the only things that can actually be ruled out An arty shell probably doesn't leave much behind. And a DIME weapon would also leave almost nothing afaik.
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Oct 22, 2023 01:32
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I mean the obvious explanation would be that Hamas hid that evidence. And they would have little reason to hide evidence of Israeli involvement. I'd note that Chris Cobb-Smith, the expert cited several times in that CNN article is on-record saying that the Israeli case regarding the hospital is “pretty thorough and conclusive", although he still can't give a definitive verdict in the absence of a proper investigation. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-hospital-bombing-what-know-experts-video-rcna121136 quote:Former British army Maj. Chris Cobb-Smith, a weapons and munitions expert, said the Israeli case was “pretty thorough and conclusive,” although he cautioned that he would “want to see remnants of the munition recovered from the rubble.” I would also note that he is hardly Israel's biggest fan historically. https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/24/middleeast/shireen-abu-akleh-jenin-killing-investigation-cmd-intl/ quote:At 200 meters, Cobb-Smith said that there was “no chance” that random firing would result in three or four shots hitting in such a tight configuration. “From the strike marks on the tree, it appears that the shots, one of which hit Shireen, came from down the street from the direction of the IDF troops. The relatively tight grouping of the rounds indicate Shireen was intentionally targeted with aimed shots and not the victim of random or stray fire,” the firearms expert told CNN. https://www.ngo-monitor.org/cnn-cites-consultant-who-teams-up-with-ngos-to-bash-israel/ quote:As seen below, for two decades, Cobb-Smith has joined with the most politicized anti-Israel NGOs in pushing false or unsubstantiated accusations of Israeli violations of the laws of war. For instance, Cobb-Smith advised Human Rights Watch in 2002 regarding Jenin, when the NGO ran campaigns alleging that Israel “committed war crimes.” During the 2009 Gaza conflict, Cobb-Smith worked for Amnesty International in a similar role. In particular, he circulated false claims (“there was no tactical reason; there was no reasonable use of that weapon system”) as well as claims (later discredited) that the IDF used white phosphorous “in an illegal manner.” Similarly, he has been involved with the campaigns of the anti-Israel NGO known as Forensic Architecture. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Oct 22, 2023 |
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Oct 22, 2023 01:45
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SirFozzie posted:Looks like CNN is also independently saying that the evidence supports the theory that it was not Israel bombing, but a Hamas Rocket. Even Israel doesn't say it's a Hamas rocket
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Oct 22, 2023 02:10
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Main Paineframe posted:
And the UAE doesn't do this? The white expats aren't the non-preferred ethnicities.
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Oct 22, 2023 02:12
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I mean the obvious explanation would be that Hamas hid that evidence. And they would have little reason to hide evidence of Israeli involvement. even in the images of the immediate aftermath there wasn't anything recognizable as such, which is decidedly strange. It's certainly possible that the event was a rocket falling out of the sky, but until fragments are turned up or an actual investigation is conducted who tf knows. I can't help but notice that they get mostly non-commital answers until they ask questions about specific munitions (eg was it a jdam?) and then the 'no it almost certainly was not an israeli jdam' gets conflated outwards as evidence that israel wasn't involved and editors write stronger headlines off of that one statement than the rest of the statements generally warrant. as long as neither Israel or Hamas wants an investigation it's going to remain next to impossible to get any certainty about what happened. in the absence of wreckage, doctors woh treated victims could give some insight, but that's about it Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Oct 22, 2023 |
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Oct 22, 2023 02:14
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I mean the obvious explanation would be that Hamas hid that evidence. And they would have little reason to hide evidence of Israeli involvement. If he's just going off of Israel's evidence, which uhh, is not the most trustworthy considering how much they've lied about it, then he's not working with the best information to begin with.
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Oct 22, 2023 02:17
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