|
It's sortof bizarre how the one incident where the fault is debatable is drowning out all the discussion of all the other atrocities where fault is known.
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 02:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 12:26 |
|
|
What the War Means for Palestinians Inside Israel Chotiner article in the New Yorker interviewing Amjad Iraqi of Al-Shabaka on the experience of Israeli Palestinians, both historically and in response to current events. I'd welcome evaluation of Al-Shabaka, as I am not familiar with the org and its ideological position. Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's sortof bizarre how the one incident where the fault is debatable is drowning out all the discussion of all the other atrocities where fault is known. Not particularly; beyond the fact that it's big, dramatic, it has a fairly directly attributable deathcount, the debate itself is a driver. Propaganda outlets on all sides of the conflict feel both an incentive and an obligation to address it. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Oct 22, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 02:26
|
|
|
The most obvious conclusion isn’t that after a giant explosion Hamas fighters were scouring the blast zone hiding evidence of their own handiwork after immediately concluding that it was their own malfunction. That’s not obvious. That’s someone displaying their bias.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 02:28
|
|
|
hadji murad posted:The most obvious conclusion isn’t that after a giant explosion Hamas fighters were scouring the blast zone hiding evidence of their own handiwork after immediately concluding that it was their own malfunction.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 02:34
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's sortof bizarre how the one incident where the fault is debatable is drowning out all the discussion of all the other atrocities where fault is known. Yeah, there's settlers in the West Bank literally depopulating Palestinian villages and it barely merits a comment.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 02:41
|
|
|
NovemberMike posted:Yeah, there's settlers in the West Bank literally depopulating Palestinian villages and it barely merits a comment. Yeah, we are getting snippets of things like: The Guardian posted:Two reported killed in Israeli shelling of West Bank refugee camp.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 02:53
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:lol that they're asking all the people 'does it look like a jdam' or point of impact fused artillery as if those are the only possibilities smh. basically asking if it could be the only things that can actually be ruled out What do you mean by "the whole site has been conspicuously free of any evidence"? Does that mean that somebody went to the site and personally searched around for evidence and couldn't find any? Or does it just mean none of the OSINT content farms have yet to spot any big chunks of metal in photographs that happened to get posted on Twitter? I'm trying not to be too dismissive here, but it was a mass casualty event that happened right outside a hospital that's being swarmed with patients in the midst of several straight days of nonstop aerial bombing in a region that's been totally blockaded. I suspect the people there have better things to do than comb through the destroyed cars for broken shards of metal that don't look like they came from a car. If there were any pieces of rocket around, first responders probably pushed them out of the way to make room for moving several hundred corpses and triaging who knows how many injured. Personally, I'm of the opinion that we're not going to have any useful evidence about what happened for months, that the countless armchair generals poring over tweeted photos and IDF-provided videos aren't actually reliable in the slightest, and that spending days hyperfocusing on this one disputed incident is just serving to distract from the other ten thousand bombs that Israel isn't even trying to deny having dropped on Gaza. Yes, I said "ten thousand". Honestly, that's probably low. The IDF claimed a week ago that they'd already dropped 6,000 bombs on Gaza in six days, and they've been bombing for eight more days since then. The UN said four days ago that the Israeli bombardment has killed over 4,200 people in Gaza, including "a large number of women and children, as well as at least 11 Palestinian journalists, 28 medical staff and 14 UN colleagues". Israel has been continuously bombarding Gaza for two straight weeks, dropping probably around one thousand bombs per day. There's really no need for the entire media to spend day after day going back and forth about the one explosion Israel has denied responsibility for.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 03:06
|
|
|
Brucolac posted:'We see you' btw, we gave 3.7 billion for military equipment to the people we 'see' killing you. They still saw them, so more funding was needed to finish the job.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 03:09
|
|
|
Didn't see this posted. 16 minutes long, but a very good video. Genocide is genocide.  https://twitter.com/danish_amooz/status/1714759771880911134
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 03:15
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 03:20
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:I mean the obvious explanation would be that Hamas hid that evidence. And they would have little reason to hide evidence of Israeli involvement. Given the general reaction to evidence Palestinians do provide, which is to dismiss it as Hamas propaganda, it's hard for me to imagine this making much difference. "How do we know this fragment of bomb wasn't planted or tampered with?" All of which is still beside the point: the Israeli military holds all the cards in this scenario, as they have for decades.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 03:23
|
|
|
mannerup posted:The only story I’ve seen getting a bit (and I mean just a bit) of traction is this one in the Times of Israel that describes members of the IDF and settlers binding, stripping, beating, burning and urinating on three Palestinians in the West Bank. It’s a long article and if you want the gruesome details of the atrocities you can read it. There's also this. https://www.972mag.com/settler-attacks-west-bank-gaza-war/
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 03:50
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 03:52
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's sortof bizarre how the one incident where the fault is debatable is drowning out all the discussion of all the other atrocities where fault is known. I mean the rest of it gets posted but it's like "this is bad" and everyone agrees and moves on to the next atrocity for the most part, it seems natural the one thing everyone isn't agreement on is what gets the most posting about it. Unless you are implying a person must comment on every single horrible thing to have happened or they support Israel.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 04:47
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:What do you mean by "the whole site has been conspicuously free of any evidence"? Does that mean that somebody went to the site and personally searched around for evidence and couldn't find any? Or does it just mean none of the OSINT content farms have yet to spot any big chunks of metal in photographs that happened to get posted on Twitter? I'm trying not to be too dismissive here, but it was a mass casualty event that happened right outside a hospital that's being swarmed with patients in the midst of several straight days of nonstop aerial bombing in a region that's been totally blockaded. I suspect the people there have better things to do than comb through the destroyed cars for broken shards of metal that don't look like they came from a car. If there were any pieces of rocket around, first responders probably pushed them out of the way to make room for moving several hundred corpses and triaging who knows how many injured. no I'm making my own observation not talking about osint content farms or whatever you're going on about. normally when a weapon blows up and kills a ton of people in among the people there's conspicuous chunks of whatever the weapon was (and particularly so when it was apparently a fairly low-energy explosion that wouldn't have just pulverized everything) and that has been specifically absent, even in the images of the direct aftermath, which is peculiar. I'm not claiming any exhaustive knowledge or even really suggesting any specific reading of that data point, but the absence of that is a weird piece of the story (and indeed one of the people cited in the CNN investigation notes that we don't just have little information, we have basically zero information wrt physical evidence). and yeah, contrary to your assertion, responders generally do collect or make piles of weapon chunks both because they can still be dangerous, they often do stand out, and because it's an important part of figuring out what happened. What fragmentation doctors are pulling out of victims is one of the other big ways of figuring out what people were hit with (and indeed has been specifically used in the past to identify Israeli attacks). all of this stuff is just a bunch of reasons why the whole thing should actually be investigated if there's a serious interest in getting answers. anyways with that said, yeah I agree with the rest of your post that the whole thing is distracting from the much greater injustices happening to all the people who are still alive Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Oct 22, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 05:13
|
|
|
My guess is that there wasn’t a lot of care to investigating the bomb fragments at the time because there was a huge amount of bodies to clean up and injured people to tend to.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 05:31
|
|
|
yes that is true of virtually all major bombings of densely packed civilians and yet it still is a thing that occurs 
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 05:50
|
|
|
People care about who is responsible for the hospital attack precisely because the ambiguity has allowed Israel and its shills to now openly question every strike that makes the news. Any time a spectacular atrocity occurs we'll get to hear how it was another rocket gone wrong, as with the night market strike. Or there will be an initial ambiguity in reporting a 'blast', as if the thousand Israeli bombs dropped each day are all coincidental. As to fragments as proof, lack of them in the photos is not proof they aren't there, either in situ or having been moved while the corpses and gore were removed. And any fragments offered as proof will be dismissed immediately as being taken from elsewhere in Gaza anyway. The University of London forensic scientists have shown at least some of their working and say whatever it was was coming from IDF positions, the 'experts' being quoted by media outlets who are saying it was an IJ or Hamas, rocket have not, as far as I'm aware. So to my mind it's probably best for now to err on the side of the known and accredited scientists until someone can disprove their methodology when the report is published, or provide scientific proof of their own. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Oct 22, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 06:23
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's sortof bizarre how the one incident where the fault is debatable is drowning out all the discussion of all the other atrocities where fault is known. As a Big Lie it's pretty good. People were absolutely loving pissed earlier this week because bomb killed a ton of people outside. Most pictures of Israeli airstrikes leave behind rubble and gray dust. Clean. Efficient. Ignore the cries of civilians screaming in pain underneath the concrete, you can not hear that through an image. This bomb landed outside, in a group of civilians crowded outside in a parking lot, in hopes that their proximity to the hospital would spare them from airstrikes. It would not. The pictures of mangled corpses inflamed alot of passions, leading to massive demonstrations. Hence every single organ of the Israeli/US State department media hacks was pointed at this, and they have succeeded. There's enough mud in the water that every /r/worldnews halfwit thinks it was a Hamas rocket.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 08:24
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:yes that is true of virtually all major bombings of densely packed civilians and yet it still is a thing that occurs I should clarify that they probably didn't think they'd need to investigate because who'd drop an explosive on them but the IDF? Which... is true, so it's not like they were wrong. IDF usually doesn't even care to pretend they weren't gleefully massacring people, either.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 08:27
|
|
|
Elden Lord Godfrey posted:There's enough mud in the water that every /r/worldnews halfwit thinks it was a Hamas rocket. For what it's worth r/Worldnews aggressively trims Palestine-favorable threads, along with a couple other country-favorables. It naturally cultivates people who are on the far right WRT foreign policy. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Oct 22, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 08:53
|
|
|
The American alphabet agencies have backdoors into that lovely website
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 09:04
|
|
|
Brucolac posted:Israel is on record as not wanting an investigation. I've not seen Hamas say the same. Until I do, I'll regard that as significant. AFAIK Hamas said they want an investigation. Which does seem to indicate who's at fault.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 10:08
|
|
|
Lovely Joe Stalin posted:People care about who is responsible for the hospital attack precisely because the ambiguity has allowed Israel and its shills to now openly question every strike that makes the news. Any time a spectacular atrocity occurs we'll get to hear how it was another rocket gone wrong, as with the night market strike. Or there will be an initial ambiguity in reporting a 'blast', as if the thousand Israeli bombs dropped each day are all coincidental.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 12:20
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:What the War Means for Palestinians Inside Israel I actually know Amjad Iraqi personally and his family, who are well-educated Israeli-Arabs. He grew up substantially abroad I think he’s been back in Israel since he was 16 or 18-ish. He’s a serious journalist and is not a reactionary anti-Israel person by any means. Haven’t talked to him in years but presumably we’re still friends on FB, if his account isn’t active. He wrote for 972mag for years ( https://www.972mag.com ) I haven’t read the interview but I’d almost certainly vouch for whatever he says.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 12:24
|
|
|
Lovely Joe Stalin posted:People care about who is responsible for the hospital attack precisely because the ambiguity has allowed Israel and its shills to now openly question every strike that makes the news. Any time a spectacular atrocity occurs we'll get to hear how it was another rocket gone wrong, as with the night market strike. Or there will be an initial ambiguity in reporting a 'blast', as if the thousand Israeli bombs dropped each day are all coincidental. Yeah when they bombed the church the headlines were all about a "blast" when there's no question it was an Israeli airstrike. They didn't even edit them after Israel admitted it. There was the video of a strike near another hospital and I saw it posted on some news site as "purported Israeli airstrike".
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 13:08
|
|
|
Well, it's slow as gently caress, but at least aid convoys being let through seems to be more than just a one-time thing: https://x.com/ap/status/1716062814110953861?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Starting to wonder if Israel actually has the international leverage it needs to perform the complete genocide/ethnic cleansing it clearly wants to, and what will happen to its internal politics if it doesn't. I can't help but notice that al-Shifa Hospital (the main medical centre in Gaza City, currently crammed with reporters, doctors, and refugees) has remained conspicuously unattacked so far despite being well within the northern sector that the IDF has ordered Gazans to evacuate. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Oct 22, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 13:26
|
|
|
In other news, 14 towns in Northern Israel were evacuated after various sporadic exchanges across the Lebanese borders with Hezbollah and other groups. This brings the total of evacuated Israeli citizens to about 200,000. Meanwhile, the Gazan Health Ministry says there are 1.4 million refugees inside the strip. Going back to the Lebanon thing, I really don't see why Israel would want a war on that front as well. Seems mental. Again, only thing I can think of is that they feel like they have a blank cheque from the population that they will not have again soon. But it's such a huge and maybe unnecessary risk that it baffles the mind.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 13:45
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:Well, it's slow as gently caress, but at least aid convoys being let through seems to be more than just a one-time thing: 17 trucks of aid 2 million people without water, power or food Not sure maths adds up here.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 14:13
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:For what it's worth r/Worldnews aggressively trims Palestine-favorable threads, along with a couple other country-favorables. It naturally cultivates people who are on the far right WRT foreign policy. I know you’re talking about Reddit but it’s still shocking to me to see just how regressive the Dems have gotten about foreign policy. I mean this doesn’t sound different from the neo cons in 2006. https://twitter.com/jmhansler/status/1715471895192125539
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 14:17
|
|
|
Israel hit a mosque in the West Bank (Jenin) yesterday. https://twitter.com/ThomasVLinge/status/1715883549637685390
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 14:21
|
|
|
kiminewt posted:In other news, 14 towns in Northern Israel were evacuated after various sporadic exchanges across the Lebanese borders with Hezbollah and other groups. I'd argue that it's not that israel feels like it has the opportunity to attack lebanon, but rather Likud and Bibi feel forced to escalate in order to appease the reactionary elements of the government
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 15:24
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:... normally when a weapon blows up and kills a ton of people in among the people there's conspicuous chunks of whatever the weapon was (and particularly so when it was apparently a fairly low-energy explosion that wouldn't have just pulverized everything) and that has been specifically absent, even in the images of the direct aftermath, which is peculiar. ... Herstory Begins Now posted:I'm not claiming any exhaustive knowledge...
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 15:25
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's sortof bizarre how the one incident where the fault is debatable is drowning out all the discussion of all the other atrocities where fault is known. I think it's an appealing topic because it's much more manageable in scope than difficult or abstract topics like "is Hamas bad?". Also people loving love their true crime stories.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 15:38
|
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:I'd argue that it's not that israel feels like it has the opportunity to attack lebanon, but rather Likud and Bibi feel forced to escalate in order to appease the reactionary elements of the government Isnt Bibi the reactionary part of the government himself? He has promised revenge and a high death toll since the start of this. His desire for the genocide of Palestinians has been well documented for years now. [edit] https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-10-22-23/index.html The U.S. is putting pressure on Israel to delay their ethnic cleansing campaign with ground forces of Gaza. Once Israel enters Gaza, it's going to turn into a bloodbath where their troops are not going to care who does and doesn't have a gun in their hands. quote:The US government has pressed Israel to delay its imminent invasion of Gaza to allow for the release of more Hamas hostages and aid into Gaza, according to two sources briefed on the discussions. I said come in! fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Oct 22, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 15:45
|
|
|
Tigey posted:17 trucks of aid I maintain that pressure against Israel is more likely to be towards humanitarian aid and allowing civilians to evacuate than actually obstructing their operation against Hamas.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 16:50
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's sortof bizarre how the one incident where the fault is debatable is drowning out all the discussion of all the other atrocities where fault is known. And it isn't even the first time - people were talking their rear end off debating "did Hamas beheaded Israeli infants or not" when Israeli rockets killed literally hundreds of Palestinian children.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 17:13
|
|
|
BrutalistMcDonalds posted:That's the magic of propaganda. It doesn't matter who did it as long as it fits the narrative of a black/white moral universe. You either stand with people who blow up apartment buildings full of civilians with laser-guided bombs or you stand with people who butcher babies and burn entire families. There's some articles going around of recent reports from Tel Aviv's big forensic institute. They're mostly 4-7 days old and the main outlets doing primary reporting (Jerusalem Post/Media Line, Times of Israel, the Guardian) seem unlikely to be actively fabricating the reporting. They're not hard to find but I don't like the details. Tldr: some Hamas raiders went more off the chain than others. The Guardian one is less awful because it's less, well, designed to enrage, and has some interesting if sad bits on corpse identification. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/17/hundreds-of-israeli-bodies-remain-unidentified-10-days-after-hamas-attack e: i see mannerup posted the times of israel one upthread. afaict the reporting is probably factually accurate Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Oct 22, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 17:15
|
|
|
i'm unclear as to Al Jazeera's bias re Turkey, but a thing on Erdogan maybe wanting to broker a ceasefire et al: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/22/is-turkey-uniquely-positioned-to-mediate-between-palestinians-and-israel Includes a couple different Turkish politicians going "yeah this seems like a good idea". Dunno exactly how quickly that's going to happen though, seems like Israel's getting ready to pull the trigger on a ground invasion.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 17:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 12:26 |
|
|
I said come in! posted:Isnt Bibi the reactionary part of the government himself? He has promised revenge and a high death toll since the start of this. His desire for the genocide of Palestinians has been well documented for years now. Netanyahu's election in the 90s spelled the death of any real peace process with the Palestinians. He really is the singular force for instability and war crimes in the region. The body count associated with his prime ministerships is staggering.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2023 17:49
|
|
