Israel/Palestine

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine

(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

Ramrod Hotshot: May 30, 2003

I said come in! posted:

Isnt Bibi the reactionary part of the government himself? He has promised revenge and a high death toll since the start of this. His desire for the genocide of Palestinians has been well documented for years now.

[edit]
https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-10-22-23/index.html

The U.S. is putting pressure on Israel to delay their ethnic cleansing campaign with ground forces of Gaza. Once Israel enters Gaza, it's going to turn into a bloodbath where their troops are not going to care who does and doesn't have a gun in their hands.

Bibi is not even the most insane part of the Israeli govt. His defense minister wanted a pre-emptive strike on Hezbollah, immediately

https://twitter.com/RaniaKhalek/status/1715668367565004984

# ? Oct 22, 2023 18:20

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 10, 2024 15:27

BUUNNI: Jun 23, 2023; by Pragmatica

Shageletic posted:

Netanyahu's election in the 90s spelled the death of any real peace process with the Palestinians. He really is the singular force for instability and war crimes in the region. The body count associated with his prime ministerships is staggering.

Also it seems like Bibi has the full backing of the entirety of the US political system. Both parties seem to be fully united in carrying out the will of the Zionist government in Israel.

https://twitter.com/LucasFoxNews/status/1716115298804261186

# ? Oct 22, 2023 18:30

Engorged Pedipalps: Apr 21, 2023

edit: wrong thread, sorry.

# ? Oct 22, 2023 18:34

E2M2: Mar 2, 2007; Ain't No Thang.

Wonder how many of those Hostages Israel has killed in the bombing. Gotta be quite a few right?

# ? Oct 22, 2023 18:36

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

I don't think they care, tbh. Once I learned about the Hannibal Directive I pretty much wrote all those hostages off.

# ? Oct 22, 2023 18:45

Irony Be My Shield: Jul 29, 2012

Hamas said that 13 had died in strikes a week ago, yeah.
https://www.scmp.com/news/world/middle-east/article/3237849/hamas-says-13-hostages-killed-israel-strikes-gaza
Although I've seen it speculated that they're being held in more protected areas like Hamas tunnels and bunkers since they're the only real bargaining chip Hamas has at this point. Like a mass hostage release is probably the only condition under which Israel could plausibly agree to a (temporary) ceasefire and that will be harder to negotiate if half the hostages already died.

e: classy av-buy.

Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Oct 22, 2023

# ? Oct 22, 2023 18:48

I said come in!: Jun 22, 2004

E2M2 posted:

Wonder how many of those Hostages Israel has killed in the bombing. Gotta be quite a few right?

The only thing I can find in a Google search is from 7 days ago and says 22 hostages according to Hamas https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza-conflict/card/hamas-says-israeli-air-strikes-killed-9-hostages-4oCzhJHit8WsF9vBrfmL So we don't really know right now. What I also find interesting is zero reporting on how many hamas people have been killed so far. I think I've seen one key leader, and maybe six others? Everything has been civilians.

But yeah I don't think Israel cares. The death of all 2 million Palestinians is their main goal.

# ? Oct 22, 2023 18:48

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

That av is pretty hosed up imo. You can ask a mod to blank it for you

# ? Oct 22, 2023 18:56

Party In My Diapee: Jan 24, 2014

HonorableTB posted:

That av is pretty hosed up imo. You can ask a mod to blank it for you

Pretty hosed up? It's genocidal hate speech.

# ? Oct 22, 2023 19:30

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

Party In My Diapee posted:

Pretty hosed up? It's genocidal hate speech.

I agree. That's why I said it was pretty hosed up. Whoever bought it should be perma'd

# ? Oct 22, 2023 19:40

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

In-My-Opinion, the hospital strike gets litigated so much because there is no cover story that can be thrown over it; it didn't demolish a building that they can claim was full of Qassam rockets or Terror Balloons or whatever, going off the ground damage they clearly didn't collapse any secret Hamas Terror Tunnels, they've not even alleged that a rocket was launched from the parking lot (their favorite in the past for demolishing utilities). It's bloody, visceral, and absent any exculpatory path for Israel beyond "wasn't me". Just like shooting Shireen, it's a lightning rod of brutality that persuades Joe Schmoe because it's so evidently unjustifiable.

It's also worked in OSINT grifters, who hitched their ride to Israel's argument and need to save face, which keeps it getting talked about as more and more agencies point out how wrong they got it.

I said come in! posted:

Isnt Bibi the reactionary part of the government himself? He has promised revenge and a high death toll since the start of this. His desire for the genocide of Palestinians has been well documented for years now.

[edit]
The U.S. is putting pressure on Israel to delay their ethnic cleansing campaign with ground forces of Gaza. Once Israel enters Gaza, it's going to turn into a bloodbath where their troops are not going to care who does and doesn't have a gun in their hands.

I suspect that Israel isn't really reluctant about delaying the ground offensive, because they know it's going to go awful for them. They've:
- Not a single good demonstration of their ground forces' competency in at minimum two decades
- Hamas is going to have better improvised munitions than during Operation Protective Edge, which was also a shitshow for Israel's ground forces
- Hezbollah are transparently waiting for them to invade so they can force a two-front war
- Oct 7 + Hezbollah skirmishes have killed or kidnapped a lot of Israel's most experienced soldiers
- The Arab states are likely going to be pushed by their people to actually do something about Israel
- It doesn't actually change anything, but they've got abysmal public opinion right now, let alone when footage of panicking IDF soldiers firing wildly into hospitals starts circulating online
- West Bank is more likely to explode when they invade

At the same time, they can't just drag this out; they've tens of thousands of men twiddling on the border, 200,000 Israelis have been evacuated from their homes, Hezbollah is rapidly degrading their border forces with effective attacks, their credit is at risk if this gets prolonged, and sooner or later the convoy at Rafah could go "gently caress this, we're just going to go through" and Israel has to add Egyptian civilians to their kill list.

But they also can't back down, because anything less than the removal of Hamas is going to be correctly perceived as a massive loss for Israel, an enormous blow to the concept of Wall-And-Forget colonialism, and a tidal wave of rage from the Israeli public.

# ? Oct 22, 2023 19:47

notwithoutmyanus: Mar 17, 2009

HonorableTB posted:

I don't think they care, tbh. Once I learned about the Hannibal Directive I pretty much wrote all those hostages off.

I think the big issue I'm seeing(I never knew this existed, it's awful) is the perpetual Israeli atrocities are basically never covered and it seems like they do whatever the gently caress they want regardless of basically anything, it seems.

Yet the majority of people I know with ties to Israel are basically of the mindset that they 100% support Israel unquestionably at all times. Not sure what the answer is when American citizens don't influence policies and clearly international relations are whatever the American diplomats involved want them to be. Seems like a loop of "Israel going to Israel". I haven't seen any of them acknowledge the aid is woefully insufficient.

# ? Oct 22, 2023 19:58

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

To my point, Israel's allegedly been committing probing attacks into Gaza to figure out just how badly things are going to go if they actually do a full-scale invasion:

https://twitter.com/ytirawi/status/1716087643883098285

And the answer appears to be "Pretty bad".

# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:12

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

It does feel like "Rolling the tanks into Gaza City and loving razing the place" is something the IDF would be ready to do on like, 48 hour's notice, max, so yeah I get the feeling that someone, somewhere high up in Tel Aviv is extremely gun-shy about it. Though I would propose a couple of alternative reasons to Neurolimal's suggestion that they anticipate it'll cost them a lot more than they want to pay: one is that they are in serious back-channel negotiations for hostage releases and are holding off until those conclude one way or the other; two is that regardless of the degree of ground casualties they expect they're willing to sit back and keep hammering the place with air power before they go in.

I don't think the latter is actually very likely at all, because I think their anger and machismo is too amped up for it, and my inclination is to think they're trying to work out a hostage deal. Or possibly trying to figure out how to make sure nobody else like Hezbollah or in the West Bank hits them in the flank while they're busy doing their ethnic cleansing in Gaza.

# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:12

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

Neurolimal posted:

To my point, Israel's allegedly been committing probing attacks into Gaza to figure out just how badly things are going to go if they actually do a full-scale invasion:

https://twitter.com/ytirawi/status/1716087643883098285

And the answer appears to be "Pretty bad".

If there is anything I wouldn't trust Hamas on, it's statements like that. Neither would I trust IDF, should they say they actually eliminated 45 Hamas terrorist with no losses in that same probing attack.

# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:20

I said come in!: Jun 22, 2004

Neurolimal posted:

But they also can't back down, because anything less than the removal of Hamas is going to be correctly perceived as a massive loss for Israel, an enormous blow to the concept of Wall-And-Forget colonialism, and a tidal wave of rage from the Israeli public.

What might happen when Israel has to explain to their people that they cannot stop Hamas? Cause we only need to look at the massive failure of the U.S. and our war on terror to know exactly where this is going to go.

# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:22

kiminewt: Feb 1, 2022

I said come in! posted:

What might happen when Israel has to explain to their people that they cannot stop Hamas? Cause we only need to look at the massive failure of the U.S. and our war on terror to know exactly where this is going to go.

Luckily you can just say you did defeat them. Mission accomplished!

By the time people figure out they're still active you blame your political rivals or fifth columnists. We would have defeated Hamas if it weren't for these pesky _____!

# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:26

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

Paladinus posted:

If there is anything I wouldn't trust Hamas on, it's statements like that. Neither would I trust IDF, should they say they actually eliminated 45 Hamas terrorist with no losses in that same probing attack.

Apparently AJ Arabic is corroborating it:

https://twitter.com/AJABreaking/status/1716143495600038048?s=20

Unless this was an entirely different, also failed raid.

# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:38

OctaMurk: Jun 21, 2013

i mean are they really corroborating it? thats like cnn corroborating an idf report

# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:40

celadon: Jan 2, 2023

OctaMurk posted:

i mean are they really corroborating it? thats like cnn corroborating an idf report

Yeah, unlike CNN, Al Jazeera's parent government didn't move two carrier groups into the eastern Mediterranean to ensure the completion of a genocide, so they actually don't have the same sort of compromising connections as most western media sources.

# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:44

mannerup: Jan 11, 2004; ♬ I Know You're Dying Trying To Figure Me Out♬

♬My Name's On The Tip Of Your Tongue Keep Running Your Mouth♬

♬You Want The Recipe But Can't Handle My Sound My Sound My Sound♬

♬No Matter What You Do Im Gonna Get It Without Ya♬

♬ I Know You Ain't Used To A Female Alpha♬

mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 5, 2023

# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:46

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 9 hours!

celadon posted:

Yeah, unlike CNN, Al Jazeera's parent government didn't move two carrier groups into the eastern Mediterranean to ensure the completion of a genocide, so they actually don't have the same sort of compromising connections as most western media sources.

Al Jazeera is funded by the government sheltering hamas leadership, it's absurd to suggest that they don't have a relevant bias and I say this as someone who thinks people should generally pay more attention to AJ. They've been one of the biggest voices for Palestinians for decades so its absurd to suggest that they are especially neutral or that they are even meant to or trying to be neutral

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Oct 22, 2023

# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:46

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

Okay, I see that there was a statement by IDF regarding the raid.

https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-10-22-23/h_bf4aae725b98b0afa0125cc267deabb4

quote:

The raid was carried out earlier today in the area of Kibbutz Kissufim near the Gaza Strip, IDF spokesperson Daniel Hagari said during a video briefing. An anti-tank missile launched toward an IDF tank and an engineering vehicle left one soldier dead, one with moderate injuries, and two with mild injuries, according to Hagari.

The IDF said the raid was part of the preparations for a Gaza ground operation, with Israeli forces attempting �to dismantle terror infrastructure, clear the area of terrorists, weapons, and locate missing persons, and bodies.�

Considering IDF didn't mention inflicting any losses on the enemy, I suppose it's safe to assume they hadn't, but maybe CNN decided not to quote that part or something.

# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:50

I said come in!: Jun 22, 2004

My main source of information during all of this has been Channel 4 News Youtube channel. Their nightly recaps of the last 24 hours has been fantastic. Some of the best reporting on this whole thing that I have seen so far. The main thing I don't like them doing is they keep asking Palestinians to condemn hamas, some of these people being interviewed just suffered horrible loving trauma, and witnessed family and love ones being brutally murdered by Israel. So some of their interviewers could stand to read the room sometimes.

# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:51

BUUNNI: Jun 23, 2023; by Pragmatica

Israel is apparently rejecting hostages taken by Hamas. It�s very weird.

https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1715840331403722884

# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:55

Gumball Gumption: Jan 7, 2012

Al Jazeera is citing the IDF in that tweet. Super weird to be questioning their reporting because of their loyalty to Hamas when the tweet is directly saying the info is from the IDF.

Edit: this tweet to be clear

Neurolimal posted:

Apparently AJ Arabic is corroborating it:

https://twitter.com/AJABreaking/status/1716143495600038048?s=20

Unless this was an entirely different, also failed raid.

# ? Oct 22, 2023 20:55

mannerup: Jan 11, 2004; ♬ I Know You're Dying Trying To Figure Me Out♬

♬My Name's On The Tip Of Your Tongue Keep Running Your Mouth♬

♬You Want The Recipe But Can't Handle My Sound My Sound My Sound♬

♬No Matter What You Do Im Gonna Get It Without Ya♬

♬ I Know You Ain't Used To A Female Alpha♬

mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 5, 2023

# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:00

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

BUUNNI posted:

Israel is apparently rejecting hostages taken by Hamas. It�s very weird.

https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1715840331403722884

Again, not sure we can trust Hamas on this one, and Israel didn't really confirm it, it looks like.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-says-israel-declined-receive-two-hostages-it-intended-release-2023-10-21/

quote:

JERUSALEM, Oct 21 (Reuters) - Israel on Saturday described as "propaganda" a claim by Hamas that the militant group had wanted to release two more hostages on humanitarian grounds but that Israel declined to receive them.

In a brief statement, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said: "We will not refer to false propaganda by Hamas."

The statement added: "We will continue to act in every way to return all the kidnapped and missing people home."

# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:08

Hong XiuQuan: Feb 19, 2008; "Without justice for the Palestinians there will be no peace in the Middle East."

Gumball Gumption posted:

Al Jazeera is citing the IDF in that tweet. Super weird to be questioning their reporting because of their loyalty to Hamas when the tweet is directly saying the info is from the IDF.

Edit: this tweet to be clear

It's definitely from the IDF.

https://twitter.com/idfonline/status/1716143049691025884

Translation:

An IDF soldier was killed, another IDF soldier was moderately wounded, and two other IDF soldiers were lightly wounded by an anti-tank missile fired at a tank and an engineering vehicle during a local operation that took place earlier today in the Gaza Strip territory, around Kisufim.

Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Oct 22, 2023

# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:15

mannerup: Jan 11, 2004; ♬ I Know You're Dying Trying To Figure Me Out♬

♬My Name's On The Tip Of Your Tongue Keep Running Your Mouth♬

♬You Want The Recipe But Can't Handle My Sound My Sound My Sound♬

♬No Matter What You Do Im Gonna Get It Without Ya♬

♬ I Know You Ain't Used To A Female Alpha♬

mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 5, 2023

# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:20

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

mannerup posted:

Its not a question that Hamas publicly made the statement from their own Telegram account on releasing two specific hostages by name "for compelling humanitarian reasons and without compensation;� However, the occupation government refused to receive them". Netanyahu's office called it 'propaganda', interfering that they believe the offer was either not actually made or made in bad faith. It's a classic non-denial denial statement from Netanyahu's office that they didn't accept or entertain the offer.

They say they informed some 'Qatari officers'. Has this been confirmed by Qatar at least?

# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:28

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

celadon posted:

Yeah, unlike CNN, Al Jazeera's parent government didn't move two carrier groups into the eastern Mediterranean to ensure the completion of a genocide, so they actually don't have the same sort of compromising connections as most western media sources.

I think the real question isn't "do they have biases?" or "do they have ties to somebody who has ties to somebody who has ties to one of the entities in question?", it's "where did they get their information from?". If a news outlet is just repeating a press release from one side or the other, then it's not really corroborating anything.

That said, sometimes there isn't going to be any corroboration, and we are going to have to go off just the reports from the IDF and Hamas. It's unlikely that any journalists, civilians, or independent observers were watching this random unannounced cross-border raid.

Paladinus posted:

Again, not sure we can trust Hamas on this one, and Israel didn't really confirm it, it looks like.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-says-israel-declined-receive-two-hostages-it-intended-release-2023-10-21/

Israel isn't confirming it, but they're not really clearly denying it either. Netanyahu just gave a vague statement saying he refuses to engage with propaganda. Which is a stance very different from the one they took a couple of days ago, when the IDF was intensely interested in pushing back against claims that they had been responsible for the hospital bombing.

Moreover, statements and leaks from American officials and Israeli commentators tend to paint a picture of an Israeli administration that refuses to negotiate with Hamas or put a hold on war preparations:

Here's how it's going over domestically: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/22/pressure-grows-on-israel-to-negotiate-release-of-gaza-hostages

quote:

CNN reported on Sunday that the Biden administration had pressed Israel to delay the ground assault on Gaza to allow time for the release of more hostages and the delivery of more aid to the besieged enclave.

On Friday Joe Biden appeared to tell reporters himself that the invasion should be delayed for the sake of freeing hostages, but the White House later said the US president had misheard the question he was being asked and was simply stating he wanted to see the release of more of the people being held inside Gaza.

Pressure on Israeli officials increased after an announcement by Abu Obeida, a spokesperson from Hamas�s military wing, the Al Qassam brigades, who said the next day that the group had also offered to free two Israeli citizens, �for humanitarian reasons and without expecting anything in return. However, the Israeli occupation government refused to accept them�.

The office of the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, denied Hamas�s claim of an offer to release more hostages, describing it as �mendacious propaganda�, adding: �We will continue to do everything necessary to bring all the captives and missing back home.�

Families of those held in Gaza fear that time is running out to free their loved ones before an expected ground invasion of the territory, amid fears that once the operation begins, freeing further hostages will be an impossibility. Many relatives of those held in Gaza remain at a sit-in outside the Israeli military headquarters in Tel Aviv, holding signs begging officials to negotiate.

�Refusing to engage in negotiations � destroys any remaining confidence that remained after the 7 October,� said Ruth Halperin-Kaddari, who gathered with tens of others outside the Israeli president�s residence. �It�s a complete breach of the contract between the people and the state.�

Halperin-Kaddari, an Israeli legal scholar and international women�s rights advocate, called the appointment of Hirsch to oversee the hostage crisis �disturbing�.

�It seems they didn�t pick the best-qualified person for the job, instead criteria was allegiance to the prime minister and his family,� she said, pointing to how Hirsch handled the Raanans� release.

�He put himself to the front of the frame [in the television interview] and grasped their hands, women who had just gotten released from hell. It shows what he cares about is his ego.�

...

Officials including Netanyahu have demanded the unconditional release of all hostages held in Gaza as Israel continues its bombardment. Hamas said they seized the captives in order to enact an exchange for some of the thousands of Palestinians detained in Israel.

Daniel Levy, a former Israeli peace negotiator, said the release of the Raanans had allowed a glimmer of hope for the families of other hostages that their cases might be possible, upping the pressure on Israeli officials to act.

�I think the release created some new dynamics. It�s given a little opening for these families to speak out more, to assert themselves,� he said. How long they have to wait before getting another gesture, another release, to keep that dynamic going, we don�t know.�

Levy said Natalie and Judith Raanan were likely to have been selected for release because of their nationality, but potentially also because of the location where they were held. �I tend to think it was also about ease of movement ... about who is accessible and held in a way that they were not exposed to too much when debriefed,� he said.

...

Others, including some families of hostages who met Netanyahu a week after Hamas�s incursion, have said publicly that they see an attack on Gaza to prevent the group�s continued control of the strip as the only potential way forward. The Israeli military called up more than 360,000 reservists and has deployed what its spokespeople described as �an iron wall� of heavy machinery around the Gaza Strip, declaring its readiness for a ground invasion at a time of the government�s choosing.

�In a time of war the people of Israel have to make sacrifices, even when our children are there, and prevail,� Tzvika Mor, the father of Eitan, who is among the missing, told Israeli radio after meeting the Israeli prime minister earlier this month.

Avi Melamed, a former Israeli intelligence official said the country�s policy had been to try to separate the issue of the hostages from a potential ground invasion, despite increasing pressure from other countries whose citizens are held in Gaza. �I think that Israel will address the issue of hostages as if there is no war, and move ahead with war plan as if there are no hostages,� he said.

And here's how foreign negotiators see it: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/21/world/middleeast/us-hostages-release-israel-hamas-qatar-raanan.html

quote:

Shocked by the scale of the attacks, Israel has refused to negotiate with Hamas, several officials said.

Instead, the Israeli army is amassing tanks and armored personnel carriers on Gaza�s border, primed for a full-scale invasion. And even though Israel allowed a trickle of humanitarian aid � 20 trucks for two million people � into Gaza on Saturday, Israeli warplanes show no sign of relenting in a campaign that is intended to destroy Hamas but has also killed thousands of civilians.

Yaakov Peri, a former head of the Shin Bet, the Israeli security service, said Israel may have agreed to let humanitarian aid enter Gaza on Saturday morning in light of the hostages� release Friday night. He said Hamas�s motive might have been to inspire Israelis who have loved ones in captivity in Gaza to pressure their government to delay the impending ground invasion until more hostages are released.

�This is what Hamas is thinking,� Mr. Peri said. �But we cannot fall for this trap.�

...

The Qatari officials told Mr. Blinken about concrete steps the Americans could start taking to try to get hostages released, a U.S. official said. Before flying out to Bahrain, Mr. Blinken stood beside the prime minister and told reporters that the two countries were �working intensively together� on the hostages and that he was �grateful for the urgency that Qatar is bringing to this effort.�

One senior official from a country involved in the negotiations said that Hamas�s political leaders are seeking a pause in Israeli attacks on Gaza to allow the group to gather information about all of the hostages, and that they have agreed, in principle, to freeing all of the civilians, including foreign nationals, who were taken captive. Mr. al-Hayya, in his interview, seconded that notion. Still, it is unclear when, or under exactly what circumstances, Hamas would agree to release them.

...

Moreover, Hamas has made clear that it will not release any of the captured Israeli soldiers � estimated to be in the dozens and including several female soldiers � until a deal is struck for the release of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. Several senior officials said this was conveyed to the Israelis, but so far the Israelis have not agreed to consider any of Hamas�s proposals, including a pause in the bombing. Israel also has not specified exactly how many Israeli soldiers were captured.

# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:29

mannerup: Jan 11, 2004; ♬ I Know You're Dying Trying To Figure Me Out♬

♬My Name's On The Tip Of Your Tongue Keep Running Your Mouth♬

♬You Want The Recipe But Can't Handle My Sound My Sound My Sound♬

♬No Matter What You Do Im Gonna Get It Without Ya♬

♬ I Know You Ain't Used To A Female Alpha♬

mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 5, 2023

# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:32

Elden Lord Godfrey: Mar 4, 2022

Ramrod Hotshot posted:

Bibi is not even the most insane part of the Israeli govt. His defense minister wanted a pre-emptive strike on Hezbollah, immediately

https://twitter.com/RaniaKhalek/status/1715668367565004984

Real Imperial Japan war against China and Britain and the US and the USSR all at once hours.

# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:41

celadon: Jan 2, 2023

Main Paineframe posted:

I think the real question isn't "do they have biases?" or "do they have ties to somebody who has ties to somebody who has ties to one of the entities in question?", it's "where did they get their information from?". If a news outlet is just repeating a press release from one side or the other, then it's not really corroborating anything.

That said, sometimes there isn't going to be any corroboration, and we are going to have to go off just the reports from the IDF and Hamas. It's unlikely that any journalists, civilians, or independent observers were watching this random unannounced cross-border raid.

That is fair, I understand distinguishing between corroboration and stenography, I just don't like rejecting nonwestern sources of news for bias or perceived bias when western media has made a pretty grim track record for itself.

https://twitter.com/MayadeenEnglish/status/1716189249819525189
It looks like Al Mayadeen is a real journalistic outpost and I assume the Red Cross/Red Crescent is taken as reliable sourcing. In any case, its nice of Israel to give this hospital a heads up on when the next Hamas rocket is going to misfire. Apparently these warnings have been going on for a couple of days and Israel has denied making those warnings so who can say whats likely to happen now.

# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:43

Zulily Zoetrope: Jun 1, 2011; Muldoon

Main Paineframe posted:

quote:
Others, including some families of hostages who met Netanyahu a week after Hamas�s incursion, have said publicly that they see an attack on Gaza to prevent the group�s continued control of the strip as the only potential way forward.

Are these actual families of hostages or are they more of this guy?

https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1714329404187300177

(apologies for the twitter link, article is paywalled; I think someone posted the text of it upthread, but thread search is failing me)

# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:45

I said come in!: Jun 22, 2004

Israel's attempts at manipulating the public and lying, are extremely transparent and obvious.

# ? Oct 22, 2023 21:57

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

I said come in! posted:

Israel's attempts at manipulating the public and lying, are extremely transparent and obvious.

Never let a serious crisis go to waste, or so they say

# ? Oct 22, 2023 22:02

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Al Mayadeen's funding is deliberately and famously obscured. It's based in Lebanon and has historically served as a disinformation proxy.

A quick glance at their english language site shows two tracks: mediating RT material and associated proxy material, and a white line of content paraphrased and copied from other press sources, commonly on how America is in decline (sometimes without attribution as "source: News Websites"). This overarching narrative approach is illustrated by the lineup of their "in five" videos is representative. Some review of their media material designed for youtube, telegram and tiktok suggests they're receiving a lot of it from other propaganda platforms or there's a degree of direct coordination there, there's just a ton of cross-pollination with columnists from china daily, CGTN...wow, Bouthaina Shaaban. Channel identification material suggests the english version is targeting our demographic.

It's also educational in another respect: I've learned that redstream is the russia-operated left-targeting propaganda successor to redfish; it looks like it's being run through a Turkish media firm now to provide greater deniability, but it's still churning Russian propaganda.

Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Oct 22, 2023

# ? Oct 22, 2023 22:13

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 10, 2024 15:27

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Zulily Zoetrope posted:

Are these actual families of hostages or are they more of this guy?

https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1714329404187300177

(apologies for the twitter link, article is paywalled; I think someone posted the text of it upthread, but thread search is failing me)

I use archive.is to bypass paywalls. It doesn't work for everything, but it's fine for Haaretz. Here's the article text:

quote:

Analysis | Netanyahu Is Petrified of the Hostages� Families. It Could Impact His Judgment
If the responsible adults in the war cabinet aren�t alert, Israel�s military response to Hamas will be more a result of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu�s political calculations than the country�s very real and urgent priorities

Months-old posters plaster the roads around the now-empty kibbutzim on the Gaza border. They feature the faces of Hadar Goldin and Oron Shaul � the two Israeli soldiers whose bodies have been held by Hamas since the 2014 war � and Abera Mengistu and Hisham al-Sayed, the two Israeli citizens (believed alive) being held there as well. The campaign for their release has been mentioned frequently over the years by Israeli politicians, but the families have not seen any results.

Now these four families have been joined by those of the 199 Israelis � at present count � who are assumed to have been taken hostage by Hamas on October 7 (other Palestinian groups are likely also holding hostages). The government can no longer ignore the families of these hostages, who have been quick to organize an effective public lobby calling for their release. The families� campaign has become an important internal dynamic that could end up influencing how Israel goes to war in Gaza.

They are not the first families of Israeli prisoners being held by terror groups who have lobbied governments and the Israeli public. But what is different this time is the swiftness with which they have organized. They didn�t wait around to see what the government was doing, but have already formed their own forum � the Hostages and Missing Families Forum � complete with legal advisers and public relations experts all working pro bono.

What is even more striking is that they have appointed their own negotiators: former senior officials in the Shin Bet security service and Mossad, with extensive contacts in the Arab world. That�s how low their confidence is in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his government.

Netanyahu, who returned to office over nine months ago, hadn�t even got around to appointing a national coordinator for POW affairs � a crucial post in past governments. As the scale of the hostage crisis began to emerge last week, he hastily appointed former Brig. Gen. Gal Hirsch to the role.

Hirsch is a political loyalist of Netanyahu, but he is also remembered for having resigned in disgrace back in 2006 after the Second Lebanon War. It was under his watch, as commander of Israeli forces on the Lebanon border, that two soldiers were snatched by Hezbollah (it later emerged that they were already dead) and some of the families are seeing his appointment as an afront.

Netanyahu is rightly concerned about the public impact the families could have on his wartime government. The protest movement against his plans to eviscerate Israel�s Supreme Court has suspended its political activity and has instead turned its significant organizational capacity toward helping locate urgent supplies for mobilized Israeli soldiers and aiding the relief effort for Israelis evacuated from the devastated areas.

With Israel at war, the judicial overhaul is suspended for now. But that doesn�t mean anger at the government has in any way abated. In fact, it has only risen � and the hostages� families are becoming the focal point for that anger.

In his last statement to the nation on Saturday evening, Netanyahu claimed to have spoken to those �who lost their loved ones or whose fate is unknown,� but no actual family member of a hostage was identified as having spoken to him.

On Sunday he finally met a group of representatives from the Hostages and Missing Families Forum, when suddenly a man who claimed to also be a relative of a hostage entered the meeting and started praising the prime minister and saying he trusted any decision he makes.

It has since emerged that the man is a far-right activist with ties to members of the Netanyahu family but no known ties to the hostages. The man�s wife, meanwhile, had organized a counter-protest outside the Israel Defense Forces headquarters in Tel Aviv, opposite the families� vigil. Some of the protesters screamed abuse at the forum members.

Netanyahu is obviously petrified of the hostages� families and is fully aware of the political damage they could do to him. It may well affect his decision-making.

Useless hacks and unpromising appointments

Another internal issue that will have wider implications is the faltering effort to provide immediate aid to the families uprooted by the Hamas attack and financial assistance to the thousands of businesses affected by the war.

During wartime, the senior official in charge of coordinating these efforts is the director general of the Prime Minister�s Office. But the incumbent, Yossi Shelley, is a useless Likud hack once suspected of personal financial irregularities, whose main function is looking after the Netanyahu family�s needs. The directors general at other ministries, most of them hacks as well, are not rushing to work with him.

As Michael Hauser Tov reported in Haaretz on Sunday, senior officials in the Prime Minister�s Office are even refusing to work with Roni Numa, a retired major general who has been appointed by the Defense Ministry to coordinate infrastructure repairs near the Gaza Strip and is a well-known figure in the protest movement.

On Monday, Netanyahu finally got around to appointing Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich to head a �socioeconomic cabinet� that will handle these issues. However, his appointment is unlikely to go down well with the kibbutzniks from southern Israel, who rightly see Smotrich as a far-right religious politician focused on his own community�s narrow interests.

Indeed, before his appointment, there were reports from a number of finance journalists that Smotrich was pressuring officials in the treasury to rush payments to religious organizations and communities, who had been promised lavish funding in the governing coalition agreements, before the inevitable freeze on all non-war-related, special interest spending. That is not going to endear him with those who are now in dire need of assistance.

Public anger over the mishandling of civil relief efforts could have an impact on the battlefield as well. With 360,000 reservists mobilized and playing a large part in the fighting � both in Gaza and on other potential fronts such as the northern border and the West Bank � a huge proportion of Israelis have left their homes, families and businesses behind. This is not going to be a short operation featuring just professional officers and conscripts, but a long, protracted war in which reservists who are being asked to sacrifice everything will find themselves wondering what kind of a civilian life they have to get back to.

Despite the terrible death toll from the Hamas attack, morale by all accounts is high and some reserve units have even been sending some of their soldiers home after filling their operational complements. No government should ever take that for granted, or expect these levels of self-sacrifice to continue forever.

Two separate policies

The third internal debate that is already influencing Israel�s wider policies on this war is providing humanitarian aid to over 2 million Palestinian civilians currently under bombardment in Gaza.

With Israel still reeling from the Hamas attack and preparing for war, it is perhaps difficult to see it also supplying urgent supplies to Gaza (the border crossings from Israel through which the aid would have passed were destroyed by Hamas in the attack). But Israel�s cooperation is needed to ensure that aid can arrive safely through Gaza�s Rafah Crossing with Egypt.

According to multiple sources, Israel had indeed given the necessary assurances on Monday morning. But once this was reported, far-right politicians and pundits immediately kicked up a fuss and Netanyahu�s office swiftly issued a denial.

It appears Israel currently has two policies regarding humanitarian aid to Gaza: the one its representatives are communicating to the Americans and other governments and international organizations; and the one its prime minister and his mouthpieces are broadcasting to their dwindling far-right political base.

If Netanyahu�s new ministers in the war cabinet, Benny Gantz and Gadi Eisenkot, don�t keep an eye on things, what will actually happen on the ground will be more a result of Netanyahu�s political calculations than Israel�s real and very urgent priorities.

For more details on the planted relative, it links to this article:

quote:

Families of Kidnapped Israelis Meet Netanyahu, Only to Find Unknown Family Boosting PM
'We need to stop this whiny behavior. We need to win the war,' said unverified relatives who appeared at the meeting between the hostages' families and the Israeli prime minister, and stirred an uproar amongst the others

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu met on Sunday with representatives of the families whose members are being held hostage by Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

Israel's coordinator for hostages and missing persons, Brigadier General (res.) Gal Hirsch, chief of staff at the Prime Minister�s Office Tzahi Braverman and Netanyahu's media adviser Topaz Luk have also attended the meeting.

Representatives of five families were present at the meeting that was coordinated between the Prime Minister's Office and the Families' Headquarters for Captives and Missing People (hereafter: the Families' Headquarters). During the meeting, however, members of another family, unknown to the headquarters' personnel, had unexpectedly joined the discussion. According to sources, the unknown family's claims spurred an uproar in the room.

The Families' Headquarters assembles about 700 relatives of missing persons and hostages being held in the Strip and handles all communications with Israeli state officials. On Sunday afternoon, the headquarters' personnel were given a two hours' notice to gather representatives of five families and arrive at a Home Front Command base in the city of Ramle in central Israel. Once the meeting started, four members of another, unknown, family had joined them.

Senior officials at the families' headquarters accuse the prime minister's office of deliberately involving these unknown family members in the meeting, since they were "politically convenient" for Netanyahu. The unknown family members were also captured in photos alongside Netanyahu, although it is not clear who took them.

A statement by the Prime Minister Office said that these previously unknown family members arrived at the meeting without any coordination, asked to join the discussion and were permitted to do so due to the sensitivity of this issue.

According to Journalist Ben Caspit, one of the four family members said during the meeting that he loves his daughter "no less than the rest of you love your own family members. But at the end we have to look at the people of Israel and the future of our existence here." The family member then told Netanyahu to "act coolly and decisively." His claims caused a scene and were criticized by the representatives of other families.

After the meeting, a statement was issued by an unknown organization called the Forum for the Families of the Captives. The forum was being promoted recently by the right-wing initiative "Menatzhim" ("winning"), which also started a sit-in protest in front of the Kirya compound in Tel Aviv.

The person behind the initiative is Rabbi Gadi Ben-Zimra who heads an Orthodox high school for girls in the northern West Bank settlement of Ma'ale Levona and represents four families of Israelis held by the Hamas.

The statement, which was issued by Eran Schwartz, who serves as a spokesman for pro-settler Honenu right-wing group, said: "The families strengthened the government at the meeting [and demanded that the army] will not stop until victory is achieved. Many tears were shed during the meeting as the families thanked the Prime Minister and called on him to remain determined and eliminate all Hamas terrorists wherever they are."

Shortly after the meeting, the Families' Headquarters issued a statement, saying that they demand that "all necessary steps" that may lead to the immediate release of the captives will be taken against Hamas the leaders of the Arab countries who influence the terrorist organization.

"The families informed the prime minister that they are aware of the complexity of the situation, but also of the opportunities created in recent days in regard to the possible negotiation for the hostages' release," the statement added.

According to a senior official at the Families' Headquarters, the incident caused a lot of stir among those who attended the meeting. "Some of [the family members] told me that if this continues, they will turn to Biden to represent them," he said. "We have no idea who this guy who spoke at the meeting was. He isn�t a member of the Families' Headquarters, we don't know him and we don't know what his story is."

Some of the members of the Forum for the Families of the Captives said after the meeting that they want to join forces with the Families' Headquarters and work together for the release of the hostages.

Journalist Jacky Levi and his partner, whose five family members were abducted to Gaza, said last night in an interview that Netanyahu tried to create a divide between the families. "There's a deliberate intention here, we are sure of that, no one knew him," Levi said of one of the four family members who unexpectedly joined the meeting. "We're looking into who he is and who he represents, because it cannot be that he just showed up out of nowhere to a meeting with the prime minister."

Tzvika Mor, whose son Eitan has been missing since the attack, said on Monday in an interview with Kol Barama Radio Station that he was the one who participated in the meeting. "I want to debunk the lie that we arrived out of nowhere, it's a lie."

"No one can just opportunely come in and meet the Prime Minister. We represent four families whose loved ones were abducted, and we wanted to convey a national message to Netanyahu. We need to stop this whiny behavior. We need to win the war. In a time of war the people of Israel have to make sacrifices, even when our children are there, and prevail," Mor added.

The Prime Minister's Office said in response that "The prime minister arrived in a meeting with the families of the hostages. The meeting was coordinated between the families and the prime minister's office. During the meeting, and in an uncoordinated manner, members of other families arrived and presented themselves as those whose loved ones are also among the hostages and asked to join the discussion. They were granted access the joined the meeting. No one in Netanyahu's office has any prior knowledge of these people, and the insinuation that they were 'planted' in the meeting is false, shocking, outrageous and unacceptable."

# ? Oct 22, 2023 22:20

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine

«‹›694 »