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Sway Grunt posted:I kinda tried to address Porat's interview a few pages ago in this post but maybe it was missed. For what it's worth I am a native speaker and listened to both of her interviews, the 5-minute radio one and the 30-minute TV one. The gist of it is that she strongly believes the hostages died to the crossfire/debris but didn't see it happen herself. In the shorter interview she also mentions seeing a group of dead civilians on the lawn as her captor's leading her out to surrender, which she also thinks died to the heavy crossfire. When I look at it on Nitter this is all I get from their own replies to it:  Anyway Twitter sucks poo poo for this kind of thing because it isn't meant to actually organize stuff but if you go it via nitter you can poke around and probably find more posts from them: https://nitter.net/nirhasson/status/1716342156581863448 When using this, you get a much better result often by going to the person's profile and looking replies to the post from there: https://nitter.net/nirhasson Then when you go to a post from the profile you can get something closer to like an actual thread: https://nitter.net/nirhasson/status/1716387954086527163#m Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 15:49
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Pvt. Parts posted:is sit on their hands while rockets are fired indiscriminately into their population centers Of course they shouldn't - they should dismantle the system they created that caused the rockets to be fired in the first place. They certainly shouldn't slaughter civilians over what amounts to token resistance to their depravity.
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Oct 23, 2023 15:57
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Pvt. Parts posted:It's a matter of degree, isn't it? Especially given the population density of Gaza, there will inevitably be collateral damage as war unfolds. There are no bombs or bullets which read "only kills combatants". Every reasonable measure should be made to avoid civilian deaths, but of course the question is what is considered reasonable. The responsibility of the Israeli state, as with any other state, is primarily in the safety and security of their constituents first and foremost. Or is it the ghetto/concentration camp system that radicalizes the minority groups to take drastic actions to fight of their oppressor that aims to eliminate them?
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Oct 23, 2023 16:07
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mannerup posted:one of their primary sources is the Electronic Intifada article which is the only outlet reporting that specific information on Yasmin Porat, with another poster in this thread providing the context around what was stated in those statements. even Electronic Intifada admits the primary source of their material is not available and the only article they cite does not corroborate civilians being killed by Israeli forces. They cannot even state categorically it's authentic by using weasel words every time they mention it, it's lovely journalism. I’m not sure where that source is, I’m going just by the part I translated from the article I found, which states they were shelling houses with their occupants still inside. I suppose you could argue that despite doing so, they did not cause any deaths in those houses, but that’s silly.
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Oct 23, 2023 16:10
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Neo Rasa posted:Anyway Twitter sucks poo poo for this kind of thing because it isn't meant to actually organize stuff but if you go it via nitter you can poke around and probably find more posts from them: Appreciate this, thanks. I didn't know nitter was a thing. So yeah, just to finish what I started - he apparently gets asked about that one part in his article a lot but in the tweet he's clarifying (or trying to...?) that it wasn't the Hannibal directive but rather "a difficult decision taken in the heat of battle in an effort to save as many soldiers and as many civilians as possible". In some cases the IDF knew there were hostages in the buildings but not what their status was, he takes no issues with those calls, notes that this has been picked up by "conspiracy sites" and ends with saying that it doesn't minimize Hamas' responsibility for the massacre.
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Oct 23, 2023 16:11
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DelilahFlowers posted:Why are rockets being fired at Israel? Fun? Islam being a religion of War? Historic Palestinian fireworks culture? The latter of course, but this only explains the atrocities, it doesn't excuse or justify them (I am not accusing you of doing that, just replying to your statement)
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Oct 23, 2023 16:11
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 16:13
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Pvt. Parts posted:It's a matter of degree, isn't it? Especially given the population density of Gaza, there will inevitably be collateral damage as war unfolds. There are no bombs or bullets which read "only kills combatants". Every reasonable measure should be made to avoid civilian deaths, but As a general principle, "Every reasonable measure should be made to avoid civilian deaths, but" is one of those phrases where what comes after the "but" isn't really important. Because in this context, the "but" negates the statement that comes before it. You say "Every reasonable measure should be made to avoid civilian deaths" (something pretty much everyone agrees with), but by adding the "but" at the end, what you're really saying is that there are situations in which reasonable measures should not be taken to avoid civilian deaths, and everything after the "but" is just justifying that stance. Though your justifications here are rather weak - you seem to be prioritizing quantity over quality, throwing out three unrelated single-sentence excuses, none of which hold any real water as anything but distractions. You say that Israel shouldn't do nothing (true, but that doesn't somehow justify war crimes), you say that Israel has a responsibility to protect its population (true, but that doesn't somehow justify war crimes), and you vaguely question the meaning of "reasonable" (no worries, there's tons of international law we can refer to about what is or isn't reasonable to do to civilians in occupied territory). When Israel has been dropping as many as 1,000 bombs a day on one of the densest urban areas in the world for over two straight weeks while not sending in any meaningful amount of ground troops, it's quite obvious that Israel is not taking reasonable measures to avoid civilian deaths. There's no such thing as a bullet that only kills combatants, true, but bombs cause several orders of magnitude more collateral damage than bullets do, and it's usually far more difficult to identify combatants at bombing range than it is at bullet ranges.
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Oct 23, 2023 16:21
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Meanwhile, in the West Bank: https://x.com/itsmairab/status/1716462600265912682?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Oct 23, 2023 16:23
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Bibi is not going to escape from this politically no matter how much he panders to the Israeli right, if this poll is indicative of feelings on the ground. As soon as the ground operation is done, or goes on long enough, that rally-around-the-flag effect is going to dissipate and those voters are going to be looking pretty hard in the direction of the guy that let this happen on his watch https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-80-of-israelis-say-netanyahu-must-take-public-responsibility-for-oct-7-failures/ quote:Poll: 80% of Israelis say Netanyahu must take public responsibility for Oct. 7 failures There's more after that but don't want to quote the entire thing.
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Oct 23, 2023 16:23
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 16:29
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The NYTimes formally apologizes for uncritically using Hamas' claim of Israel bombing the Gaza hospital https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/23/...times&smtyp=cur A bit late to the game.
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Oct 23, 2023 16:40
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:"constituents" is an interesting word choice here. I guess citizens would be a better one? I mean nothing by its inexactness in either case. Groovelord Neato posted:Of course they shouldn't - they should dismantle the system they created that caused the rockets to be fired in the first place. They certainly shouldn't slaughter civilians over what amounts to token resistance to their depravity. What system is that? If that system is their existence as an independent Jewish state, period, as it is in the mind of some Palestinians, then I don't see where there is to go from there. It's a dead end. And I'm not alluding to Palestinian consensus on the right for Israel to exist, but "this is our land, you shouldn't be here" is a non-starter from a "dismantling systems" POV. Hamas in the past has been more explicit about Israel's destruction as an endgame, less so now. DelilahFlowers posted:Why are rockets being fired at Israel? Fun? Islam being a religion of War? Historic Palestinian fireworks culture? Many reasons which are maybe not even fully understood by people firing said rockets themselves. And that's not a "hurr hurr look at these barbarians, violent in nature!" jab at the Palestinians/Hamas, but more of a recognition of the extremely long historical tentacles which emanate from the conflict. Sometimes the best reason people have for feuding is, like many aspects of culture, "because that's what we've always done, and that's how it's always been". In some parts of southern Europe they kiss on both cheeks to greet each other. Some just the right, or just the left, or right and then left and then right again. Some literally touch lips to cheek, some only just cheek-to-cheek. Some go across genders, some don't. These seemingly compatible traditions are effectively non-interoperable when it comes to "on the ground" mixing of different styles; where and how do you kiss? Would it be ludicrous to entertain that ancient tribal feuds could be just as arbitrary? Serotoning fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 16:45
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Pvt. Parts posted:I guess citizens would be a better one? I mean nothing by its inexactness in either case. Thank you for clarifying. "Constituents" means voters (adults) and since the Palestinian population is so skewed towards minors, it could be interpreted as purposefully excluding most Palestinians. Since that wasn't your intent, no harm no foul.
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Oct 23, 2023 16:47
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Pvt. Parts posted:What system is that? If that system is their existence as an independent Jewish state, period, as it is in the mind of some Palestinians, then I don't see where there is to go from there. It's a dead end. And I'm not alluding to Palestinian consensus on the right for Israel to exist, but "this is our land, you shouldn't be here" is a non-starter from a "dismantling systems" POV. Hamas in the past has been more explicit about Israel's destruction as an endgame, less so now. The proper and wholly earned response to this would likely get me pinched so I'll say yeah you hit the nail squarely on the head this is exactly what I meant.
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Oct 23, 2023 16:47
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I mean it's not exactly an arcane and indecipherable phenomenon; Israel raids Al-Aqsa, rockets are fired. Israel escorts settlers to Jenin so they can immolate Palestinians, rockets are fired. Israel bombs Gaza, rockets are fired. It's their only primary bargaining chip and they're not going to give it up. You could argue "but Israel is just going to hurt them more if they fire rockets!" But Operation Cast Lead is only 14 years old; most Gazans are aware that not firing rockets is zero guarantee that Israel won't arbitrarily bomb them to shore up an election season. The grass is getting mowed either way.
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Oct 23, 2023 16:49
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Pvt. Parts posted:Every reasonable measure should be made to avoid civilian deaths, but What they should actually do is stop committing war crimes, collective punishment, and apartheid, even by your metric. Ramping it up doesn't make anyone safer; even should they somehow dismantle Hamas entirely, whatever replaces them is not going to consider peace with Israel to be a realistic option. There is going to be resistance so long as someone is alive to resist and the only way it ends is if every civilian is also dead. There's also numerous humanitarian reasons, but strategically, the response only makes sense if killing Palestinians is a higher priority than safeguarding your own civilians.
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Oct 23, 2023 16:52
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Groovelord Neato posted:The proper and wholly earned response to this would likely get me pinched so I'll say yeah you hit the nail squarely on the head this is exactly what I meant. If you haven't eaten a probe or two in order to (im)properly express your opinions in this here thread, you're doing it wrong. More seriously, what constitutes a proper claim to land is not something I'm going to pretend to have any real clue about. My impulse, inherited from Western/English property law, is something along the lines of stewardship imbues a claim to property/land. Also, the nature of your use of some property/land is tied into your convincing me you rightfully own it. You can have the pipe, just don't hit me on the hit with it, and definitely don't make pipe bombs.
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Oct 23, 2023 16:57
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HonorableTB posted:Bibi is not going to escape from this politically no matter how much he panders to the Israeli right, if this poll is indicative of feelings on the ground. As soon as the ground operation is done, or goes on long enough, that rally-around-the-flag effect is going to dissipate and those voters are going to be looking pretty hard in the direction of the guy that let this happen on his watch The entirety of the western world is backing Bibi and Likud, nonetheless. It seems likely they will be able to escape from this disaster of their own doing in much better shape than before. These attacks also give Bibi and Likud a green light to be even more savage towards any israelis who dissent. And this is good because the IDF and Israeli police can use their shiny new equipment on dissenters AND Palestinians! Pvt. Parts posted:More seriously, what constitutes a proper claim to land is not something I'm going to pretend to have any real clue about. My impulse, inherited from Western/English property law, is something along the lines of stewardship imbues a claim to property/land. If you actually believed this then you'd see the entirety of the region as rightfully belonging to the Palestinians. BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 16:59
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Pvt. Parts posted:If you haven't eaten a probe or two in order to (im)properly express your opinions in this here thread, you're doing it wrong. One part of Palestine is a prison and the other is slowly being consumed by settlers (and not so slowly anymore). When do you think they started firing rockets? I'll give you a hint: Gaza still had settlements. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 17:01
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Pvt. Parts posted:What they definitely shouldn't do by any reasonable standard, and what some in this thread and elsewhere have suggested, is sit on their hands while rockets are fired indiscriminately into their population centers and their borders are beached with indiscriminate slaughterous intent.
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Oct 23, 2023 17:13
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BUUNNI posted:
Stewardship isn't a binary yes/no, it's a spectrum. Law gives us a framework for judging and regulating behavior in some standardized way, not the exact right answer in every conceivable circumstance. All you've managed to say here is "my previously held beliefs are indeed still held" while implicating me in missing some deeper profundity.
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Oct 23, 2023 17:14
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Pvt. Parts posted:I guess citizens would be a better one? I mean nothing by its inexactness in either case. What an incredibly racist post. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 23, 2023 17:22
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Reik posted:What an incredibly racist post. Which part?
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Oct 23, 2023 17:28
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Well, it's Zionist tradition to take people's poo poo, and Palestinian tradition to launch rockets. I mean, I just don't see how you resolve these fundamental cultural conflicts! I feel like a lot of people ITT would have been arguing in favour of South African Apartheid, on the basis that there's just no other way it could possibly work. It's a very small-minded way of looking at things, by which I don't mean "stupid," but just reflective of a worldview which is ignorant and closed to possibility. I don't think it's morally "evil" or anything, because I think it's done without intent; it's just sad to see. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 23, 2023 17:32
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Probably the part where you compared cultural greetings with launching rockets into populated areas
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Oct 23, 2023 17:32
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Pvt. Parts posted:Which part? The part where you conclude that Palestinians living in open air prisons launch rockets at the people keeping them in those prisons without any thought, because violent acts are just part of their nature like how people greet each other.
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Oct 23, 2023 17:32
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Pvt. Parts posted:I guess citizens would be a better one? I mean nothing by its inexactness in either case.
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Oct 23, 2023 17:43
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One reason would be domestic politics - by firing rockets Hamas can be seen by the people of Gaza to be Fighting Back, which is obviously popular when the strip is being brutally bombarded. Hamas can then easily exaggerate the impact that they have on Israel, and cover-up any self-inflicted damage caused by failures.
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Oct 23, 2023 17:45
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Hong XiuQuan posted:https://x.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1716113399728218618?s=20 They are talking about a missile that is "too far away to be related to the hospital explosion", but was visible on Al Jazeera footage. This is their conclusion regarding the hospital explosion: https://x.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1716123208191971420?s=20
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Oct 23, 2023 17:53
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Pvt. Parts posted:Many reasons which are maybe not even fully understood by people firing said rockets themselves. And that's not a "hurr hurr look at these barbarians, violent in nature!" jab at the Palestinians/Hamas, but more of a recognition of the extremely long historical tentacles which emanate from the conflict. Sometimes the best reason people have for feuding is, like many aspects of culture, "because that's what we've always done, and that's how it's always been". Do you think this conflict is rooted in ancient tribal feuds and not that Gaza is an open-air prison? Do you think that they're just resisting Israel out of habit?! Are you comparing an ongoing violent conflict to greeting rituals?!?!
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Oct 23, 2023 17:59
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Pvt. Parts posted:I guess citizens would be a better one? I mean nothing by its inexactness in either case. I don’t want to tempt fate but we might have found the worst post in the thread. Saying that violence is just in the nature of Palestinians, that is quite a take. Defending a settler-colonialist ethnostate is bad, but agreeing that the people they’re oppressing are just violent animals who fire rockets out of primal habit is really quite a take. Especially when they’re quite obviously firing rockets because they’ve been kicked out of their land and brutally oppressed by said colonialist ethnostate.
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Oct 23, 2023 18:02
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beer_war posted:They are talking about a missile that is "too far away to be related to the hospital explosion", but was visible on Al Jazeera footage. Their conclusion is that even though it wasn't THAT rocket that exploded in mid-air and is too far to be relevant to this (they have footage of it in the CNN link they post), it was probably a failed rocket launch anyway because ??? Their second link doesn't go to an actual article or/and the article was taken down, unlike the NYT stuff from today it's not on archive.org either, is there a more direct link to it?
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Oct 23, 2023 18:03
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Manifest Destiny, but for Zionism. You hate to see it, folks
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Oct 23, 2023 18:04
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Is there an up-to-date tracker that keeps a running tally of all the confirmed Israeli hospital bombings? All the sources I've seen are just about individual strikes, and the Al Ahli strike is edging out any search terms I've been attempting.
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Oct 23, 2023 18:08
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Neo Rasa posted:Their second link doesn't go to an actual article or/and the article was taken down, unlike the NYT stuff from today it's not on archive.org either, is there a more direct link to it? The link is missing a character. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-hospital-rocket-gaza-e0fa550faa4678f024797b72132452e3 beer_war fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 18:11
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Pvt. Parts posted:In some parts of southern Europe they kiss on both cheeks to greet each other. Some just the right, or just the left, or right and then left and then right again. Some literally touch lips to cheek, some only just cheek-to-cheek. Some go across genders, some don't. These seemingly compatible traditions are effectively non-interoperable when it comes to "on the ground" mixing of different styles; where and how do you kiss? Would it be ludicrous to entertain that ancient tribal feuds could be just as arbitrary? I think there's a lot of merit here: It's now clear to me that the fist bump vs. handshake divide is the historical cause of racial violence in the US. How could I have overlooked it?
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Oct 23, 2023 18:14
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DelilahFlowers posted:Also, if we are talking tribes, israelis and palestinians are of the same one. They share the same blood. Tribes only exist as cultural and political identities that unite people, obviously there is no tribe that unites Israelis and Palestinians. You might want to exist, but it doesn't. The reference to their "blood" is just racism. At best you'd stop being racist, but in the meantime please don't post racism here. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 18:16
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DelilahFlowers posted:Also, if we are talking tribes, israelis and palestinians are of the same one. They share the same blood. Everyone on earth shares the same blood, it's a matter of how much you zoom in. I don't think I'm out of line for calling Israelis and Palestinians separate ethnic groups for our purposes, which by the way can identify on religious and cultural bases as well as ancestral. HonorableTB posted:Probably the part where you compared cultural greetings with launching rockets into populated areas Reik posted:The part where you conclude that Palestinians living in open air prisons launch rockets at the people keeping them in those prisons without any thought, because violent acts are just part of their nature like how people greet each other. Jakabite posted:I don’t want to tempt fate but we might have found the worst post in the thread. Saying that violence is just in the nature of Palestinians, that is quite a take. Defending a settler-colonialist ethnostate is bad, but agreeing that the people they’re oppressing are just violent animals who fire rockets out of primal habit is really quite a take. Especially when they’re quite obviously firing rockets because they’ve been kicked out of their land and brutally oppressed by said colonialist ethnostate. PostNouveau posted:Do you think this conflict is rooted in ancient tribal feuds and not that Gaza is an open-air prison? These are maybe among the least generous readings of my post imaginable. I was replying to a poster who suggested the rockets are being fired from Hamas for good reason: resistance against an oppressor which aims to eliminate them. I granted them these terms despite not being fully on board (oppression I can broadly agree with, elimination is harder) and extended the discussion thusly: if I do X because you did Y, and you in turn do Z because I did X, at some point "we", on both sides, may lose ourselves in cultural tit-for-tat accounting. I don't think this is unreasonable, and I certainly don't think it's racist. Granted, I spoke only of the Palestinian shows of force (Qassam rockets), and not the Israeli, but that's because that was the topic at hand. Israelis are not immune to this, nor is anyone gripped in the seductions of tribal thinking. I was using the greetings as an example of the arbitrariness and ethereal-like nature of many cultural/tribal customs, not as some racist damnation. Violence and distrust for the other aren't a part of Palestinian nature, they're a part of human nature. Muscle Tracer posted:I think there's a lot of merit here: It's now clear to me that the fist bump vs. handshake divide is the historical cause of racial violence in the US. How could I have overlooked it? Sometimes we use abstractions to speak of other things disconnected from their literal meaning. Abstract thinking/reasoning it's called. Many Arabs, even the ones not getting bombed by Israelis, hate Jews (and maybe especially Israelis). So if you think that hatred for Jews/Israelis contains no cultural arbitrariness across the Arab world (including Palestine), you're probably wrong. Serotoning fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 18:24
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Tribes only exist as cultural and political identities that unite people, obviously there is no tribe that unites Israelis and Palestinians. You might want to exist, but it doesn't. Is using rhe term "genetics" okay for you?
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Oct 23, 2023 18:45
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