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DelilahFlowers posted:Is using rhe term "genetics" okay for you? Let me rephrase: your belief in sorting people into tribes based on their genetics, as if it will help solve or explain anything discussed in this thread, is stupid and racist. If you're going to talk about how tribalism plays into this conflict, you have to deal with the tribes that actually exist in the cultures of the people involved. There is no value at all in discussing the tribes that your racism tells you *should* exist based on the genetics of the people involved. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 18:51
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PT6A posted:Well, it's Zionist tradition to take people's poo poo, and Palestinian tradition to launch rockets. I mean, I just don't see how you resolve these fundamental cultural conflicts! I mean people did defend it on that basis. There was definitely an element of it having gone on for so long and oppressed black people so bad, that ended it would result in white's being killed for revenge. Similar argument gets made in the I/P situation.
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Oct 23, 2023 18:56
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Let me rephrase: your belief in sorting people into tribes based on their genetics, as if it will help solve or explain anything discussed in this thread, is stupid and racist. Racism is when you state that the favored group of an ethnonationalist state is closely related to the group they are genociding.
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Oct 23, 2023 18:56
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Pvt. Parts posted:These are maybe among the least generous readings of my post imaginable. I was replying to a poster who suggested the rockets are being fired from Hamas for good reason: resistance against an oppressor which aims to eliminate them. I granted them these terms despite not being fully on board (oppression I can broadly agree with, elimination is harder) and extended the discussion thusly: if I do X because you did Y, and you in turn do Z because I did X, at some point "we", on both sides, may lose ourselves in cultural tit-for-tat accounting. I don't think this is unreasonable, and I certainly don't think it's racist. 1. The person you were replying to didn't say the rockets being fired was "good" they said they were drastic measures. 2. Again here you are implying the Palestinians are firing the rockets out of "arbitrariness" which is what is racist. Palestinians have an understandable reason for not trusting and resisting the Israeli government, it's not arbitrary.
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Oct 23, 2023 18:59
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DelilahFlowers posted:Racism is when you state that the favored group of an ethnonationalist state is closely related to the group they are genociding. That is racist, yes. It's a racist view to think that people who are more closely related should be less likely to fight. It's literally viewing the conflict through a racist lens. Ethnicity is a cultural grouping, not a racial one.
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Oct 23, 2023 19:03
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"ancient tribal feudalism" is just an excuse to not read a history book.
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Oct 23, 2023 19:03
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DelilahFlowers posted:Racism is when you state that the favored group of an ethnonationalist state is closely related to the group they are genociding. Yeah your attempt to use race science to understand this war is racist. Comparing Israeli and Palestinian genetics to figure out who belongs to which tribe, that's race science. Please stop making racist posts in this thread. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 19:03
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Pvt. Parts posted:Everyone on earth shares the same blood, it's a matter of how much you zoom in. I don't think I'm out of line for calling Israelis and Palestinians separate ethnic groups for our purposes, which by the way can identify on religious and cultural bases as well as ancestral. I am very confident that the people being genocided are not going to forget why they are under constant attack and threat of death. e: DelilahFlowers posted:Racism is when you state that the favored group of an ethnonationalist state is closely related to the group they are genociding. This is one of those sentences that you could say in either Israel or Palestine and have everyone that hears it instantly upset at you HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 19:08
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Marenghi posted:I mean people did defend it on that basis. There was definitely an element of it having gone on for so long and oppressed black people so bad, that ended it would result in white's being killed for revenge. Similar argument gets made in the I/P situation. Oh yes, of course there were those people, in fairly large numbers. I'm just pointing out that a lot of people posting here would probably have been those people. They were wrong then (that's proven) and I suspect they are wrong now, based on observable history. We really have no concrete idea how the Palestinians of post-1948 would react to a world where Israel peacefully decided to stop Apartheid, because they've never been given a chance to show us, but based on the end of Apartheid South Africa, among other conflicts, it would be reasonable to assume they would not continue firing rockets. When Canada gave First Nations people de jure equal rights to settler Canadians, they didn't use it to attack us or anything like that. Even now that they're still de facto second-class citizens based on living conditions, I don't have to worry that some First Nations person is going to attack me for being white. This paranoid fantasy that the oppressed are motivated by vengeance rather than a desire for liberty is an insidious consequence of the settler-colonial mindset. PT6A fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 19:09
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PT6A posted:Oh yes, of course there were those people, in fairly large numbers. I'm just pointing out that a lot of people posting here would probably have been those people. They were wrong then (that's proven) and I suspect they are wrong now, based on observable history. I haven't seen anyone here defend Israeli apartheid, much less South African apartheid. I think if you're going to say something so severe and inflammatory, you should find some posts and say "this is the kind of thing I'm talking about, I sincerely believe these individual people probably would defend South African apartheid."
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Oct 23, 2023 19:13
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Yeah your attempt to use race science to understand this war is racist. KillHour posted:That is racist, yes. It's a racist view to think that people who are more closely related should be less likely to fight. It's literally viewing the conflict through a racist lens. And yet you twist it to be about racism. These gross mischaracterizations is exactly why so few people post in this thread.
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Oct 23, 2023 19:17
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DelilahFlowers posted:I wanted to make a loving post about israelis and palestinians being more similar than different, that they are descendents of the same loving people, and that they shouldnt be loving killing each other because they are killing their own family. It's not a mischaracterization and you're confusing being told it's a racist argument for someone saying that you are a Racist. It is very easy to make a well meaning and well intentioned argument, which yours is, through a racial lens because it is the lens we're all constantly told to view the world through. They don't have similarities and differences as different races. They're just humans. The problem is that we bundle up a lot of things with no tie to race, like politics, culture, beliefs, or allegiances and then use race as an explainer for why which ends up causing well meaning arguments that still depend on race being a real factor and difference. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 19:20
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I haven't seen anyone here defend Israeli apartheid, much less South African apartheid. Pvt. Parts posted:Many reasons which are maybe not even fully understood by people firing said rockets themselves. And that's not a "hurr hurr look at these barbarians, violent in nature!" jab at the Palestinians/Hamas, but more of a recognition of the extremely long historical tentacles which emanate from the conflict. Sometimes the best reason people have for feuding is, like many aspects of culture, "because that's what we've always done, and that's how it's always been". This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, I sincerely believe this individual person would probably defend South African apartheid. Not on the basis that Blacks are inferior, of course, just on the basis that after such a long period of apartheid, they'd probably know no culture but to violently attack white people.
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Oct 23, 2023 19:21
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KillHour posted:That is racist, yes. It's a racist view to think that people who are more closely related should be less likely to fight. It's literally viewing the conflict through a racist lens. I'd argue that it is important, as one of the defining mythos for Israel is that of Jews triumphantly returning home expelling the invaders, and preventing Jewish persecution. It's relevant to point out that those 'invaders' are in fact the children of the Jews who stayed, who still have deep Jewish-based roots to the land, and as a result mock the concept of the last point.
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Oct 23, 2023 19:23
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HonorableTB posted:I am very confident that the people being genocided are not going to forget why they are under constant attack and threat of death. Do you really think, even for a second, that if the Palestinians were powerful militarily and politically enough to not be "genocided", that the fighting would stop and everyone would live happily ever after? The conflict exists beyond the obvious asymmetry in strength. Serotoning fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 19:23
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It doesn't matter if 70% of Jews and 50% of Arabs share common DNA from ancestors multiple thousands of years ago because it has no bearing at all on literally anything sociologically or culturally or in any way possible. Humans share 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees, are they about to stop ripping off peoples' faces in solidarity with their genetic brother?
HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 19:23
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DelilahFlowers posted:I wanted to make a loving post about israelis and palestinians being more similar than different, that they are descendents of the same loving people, and that they shouldnt be loving killing each other because they are killing their own family. Yeah it looks like you place a lot of value into genetics, in determining how things are (who is similar and who is different, who belongs to which tribe, who belongs to which family) and how things should be (who should be loving killing each other). Someone who believes in understanding the world through ethnic/tribal identity, and believes in understanding ethnic/tribal identity through genetics - I don't know what to call that except racism, sorry.
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Oct 23, 2023 19:23
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PT6A posted:Oh yes, of course there were those people, in fairly large numbers. I'm just pointing out that a lot of people posting here would probably have been those people. They were wrong then (that's proven) and I suspect they are wrong now, based on observable history. I mean, 1995 to 2005 Gaza was certainly a more open period for Gaza specifically and they had the opportunity to show the world something during those years. Didn't go that way, but that was a valid opportunity for them to do so. They also had the opportunity during the election. Even if people would refuse to vote for Fatah, they could have abstained or voted for someone else besides the organization who was explicitly devoted to genocide (whether you believe their future changes, in 2005 it was very explicit). That would have been an opportunity to show the world.
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Oct 23, 2023 19:24
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I want to counter the narratives of an ethnonationalist state not uphold the validity of "scientific" racism or purport the existence of tribes (which i was countering in the first place abd dont loving believe in) You are literally going "oh, so you believe in racial science huh" to someone using genetics to disprove phrenology
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Oct 23, 2023 19:29
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DelilahFlowers posted:I want to counter the narratives of an ethnonationalist state not uphold the validity of "scientific" racism or purport the existence of tribes (which i was countering in the first place abd dont loving believe in) If you don't believe in it then say you don't believe in it. Instead what you said was: DelilahFlowers posted:Also, if we are talking tribes, israelis and palestinians are of the same one. They share the same blood. If you think "talking tribes" is nonsense then you should've just said it was nonsense. Instead you gave your own theory of who belongs to which tribe based on "blood" and genetics, which is called racism. It's just what racism is - the attempt to sort people into categories based on genetic-ancestral origin, the thing you were doing. quote:You are literally going "oh, so you believe in racial science huh" to someone using genetics to disprove phrenology Yeah because your "using genetics" to say who belongs to which tribe, who is similar and who is different, who is family, who should be killing whom - it's racism. I understand that it's racism in the service of laudable 'why can't we all just get along" politics, but the problem is that racism is always stupid and so your racist posts are necessarily stupid as well. The way to counter ethnonationalism is to say "your racial ideology is bullshit," not "your racial ideology should recognize my racial science which proves that you were really the same race as your enemy and therefore have a natural bond."
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Oct 23, 2023 19:37
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Civilized Fishbot posted:If you don't believe in it then say you don't believe in it. Instead what you said was: Shut the gently caress up, debate lord retard (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 23, 2023 19:39
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PT6A posted:
By the end that was the justification for continuing apartheid, at least the one targeted at people who were uncomfortable with the openly racist justifications. It's really a pity that this unequal system has to exist and that we need a violent, militaristic security state to enforce it, but black people just hate white people in South Africa so much at this point that if you take the shackles off now the "swart gevaar" will kill us all. The oppression became its own moral justification. They hate us because we oppress them, and we can't afford to stop oppressing them as long as they hate us. E: oh wow beaten by a mile VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 19:53
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nessin posted:I mean, 1995 to 2005 Gaza was certainly a more open period for Gaza specifically and they had the opportunity to show the world something during those years. Didn't go that way, but that was a valid opportunity for them to do so. Could you state why 1995-2005 was an opportunity for Gaza to "show the world something" when you had rampant settlerism and land confiscation, and any decisions typically handled by a government handled by an occupying force that controlled their borders, wave arrested and tortured their people, and stole their natural resources, down tp preventing wells from being dug? If you're gonna post such a bold claim, could you at least provide some sources
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Oct 23, 2023 19:58
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Pvt. Parts posted:I guess citizens would be a better one? I mean nothing by its inexactness in either case. The Israeli-Palestine conflict isn't an "ancient tribal feud". It's a 20th-century clash between nationalist movements, not some inscrutable cultural trait. If you want to say that they're simply destined to hate each other because of some cultural incompatibility, you're going to have to come up with much better examples than different styles of greeting-kisses. There aren't any rockets being launched from the West Bank, so it seems quite obvious that existing as an independent Jewish state does not inherently draw rocket fire from Palestinians. Pvt. Parts posted:If you haven't eaten a probe or two in order to (im)properly express your opinions in this here thread, you're doing it wrong. This doesn't make any sense at all. Western property law does not require someone to prove they're putting land to good use in order to continue owning it. And even if it did, the Palestinians were putting their land to use. And even if they weren't, citing the property laws of a country on a whole different continent as a reason to steal Palestinian land is just purestrain colonialism. I really think it would be nice if you just straight-out said what you were actually thinking, instead of these constant diversions to weird irrelevant off-topic stuff like English property law or Southern European kiss-greeting practices. You're throwing out analogies that don't make any sense, and then as soon as someone calls you on it you move straight to a new one. For someone who's supposedly discussing the Israel/Palestine conflict in the Israel/Palestine thread, you sure seem reluctant to actually talk about Israel or Palestine in any real detail. DelilahFlowers posted:I want to counter the narratives of an ethnonationalist state not uphold the validity of "scientific" racism or purport the existence of tribes (which i was countering in the first place abd dont loving believe in) The thing is that nobody really cares. They may be genetically related, but they've culturally diverged long ago and no longer identify as a single people, and that's far more important than whatever genetic studies say. The only real relevance of the genetic studies is as a counter to Zionist myths that Palestinians were themselves foreign colonists who moved in after the Jews left (and therefore have a lesser claim to the land). But we don't really need genetic studies to debunk that. The idea that both modern Jews and Palestinians descended from the Israelites was (as far as I can tell) pretty widely accepted for centuries. It only really started to experience pushback in the early 20th century, as increasing tensions between Zionist immigrants and local Palestinians led to each side seeking to discredit the other side's ancestral links to the land.
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Oct 23, 2023 20:00
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PT6A posted:This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, I sincerely believe this individual person would probably defend South African apartheid. I think the prevailing attitude of the thread is obviously a deep opposition to Israeli apartheid (which I share), to the point that last week there was a serious debate over whether it's bad when Hamas kills random Israelis and their kids (I think it's very bad). I don't know that you could get more than 2 people here to say they oppose BDS, I think if this thread was around for South African apartheid it would be full of people who opposed apartheid, specifically by supporting the ANC and supporting boycotting South Africa. Main Paineframe posted:The only real relevance of the genetic studies is as a counter to Zionist myths that Palestinians were themselves foreign colonists who moved in after the Jews left (and therefore have a lesser claim to the land). But we don't really need genetic studies to debunk that. The idea that both modern Jews and Palestinians descended from the Israelites was (as far as I can tell) pretty widely accepted for centuries. It only really started to experience pushback in the early 20th century, as increasing tensions between Zionist immigrants and local Palestinians led to each side seeking to discredit the other side's ancestral links to the land. I think the one problem here is that it accepts the Zionist framing that land rights exist that the ethnic-national level and inherited from generation to generation in that way. Even if the Palestinians had all immigrated to Palestine from Alaska in 1901, and "genetically" they were Native Alaskans, it would not at all change the injustice of the occupation or the nakba. With this kind of Zionist bullshit racism it's enough to say that the myth is factually wrong, it's important to acknowledge that the myth is irrelevant and incoherent, that it's "not even wrong." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 20:04
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Main Paineframe posted:The Israeli-Palestine conflict isn't an "ancient tribal feud". It's a 20th-century clash between nationalist movements, not some inscrutable cultural trait. If you want to say that they're simply destined to hate each other because of some cultural incompatibility, you're going to have to come up with much better examples than different styles of greeting-kisses. You are now purportedly a racist accoeding to these loving idiots arguments
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Oct 23, 2023 20:05
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Shageletic posted:Could you stated why 1995-2005 was an opportunity for Gaza to "show the world anything" when you had rampant settlerism and land confiscation, and any decisions typically handled by a government handled by an occupying force that controlled their borders, wave arrested and tortured their people, and stole their natural resources, down tp preventing wells from being dug? If you're gonna post such a bold claim, could you at least provide some sources Because 1995 was the turnover from Gaza-Jericho and Oslo II, so Gaza had some self-determination and was making their own government decisions and laws. Specific to your comment here, 1995 is the point when "any decisions typically handled by a government handled by an occupying force that controlled their borders" was no longer an accurate statement thanks to Gaza-Jericho. In addition Egypt, who to remind you controls one of those borders, relations were still good as far as I'm aware and Israel wasn't enforcing a strict blockade like they were prior to that or after the 2005 election.
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Oct 23, 2023 20:09
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Sure, but everyone else immediately responded to that post calling it stupid, racist, and dismissive of the insane violent oppression under which Palestinians have to live every day. I agree. Perhaps I shouldn't have said "many people" here would've supported South African apartheid, because I absolutely believe you're correct about the majority view of the thread. But there's a definite non-zero number of people here who would've done -- and they're being rightfully called out for it, I agree.
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Oct 23, 2023 20:16
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DelilahFlowers posted:You are now purportedly a racist accoeding to these loving idiots arguments No not at all. If you're mad about what I said - I swear it's not personal, I'm not trying to gently caress with you. I just personally really don't like seeing people do race science about who the Jews and Palestinians REALLY are and who their REAL families are, based on genetics. I've seen nasty Zionists do it, nasty Jew-haters do it, and you're doing it too - not that you're nasty, but your attempt to find some enlightened genetic-tribal reality that builds bridges instead of barriers, it's still just nasty-rear end scientific racism. Main Painefrsme's post wasn't racist because it didn't do that.
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Oct 23, 2023 20:24
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Pvt. Parts posted:I guess citizens would be a better one? I mean nothing by its inexactness in either case. You could prob convert all Jewish Israelis to Islam tmr and the current I/P conflict will continue, just with different framing. Since the fundamental material circumstances of both sides haven't changed all that much. Ideological components of said conflict will simply adapt.
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Oct 23, 2023 20:26
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Civilized Fishbot posted:No not at all. If you're mad about what I said - I swear it's not personal, I'm not trying to gently caress with you. I just personally really don't like seeing people do race science about who the Jews and Palestinians REALLY are and who their REAL families are, based on genetics.
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Oct 23, 2023 20:27
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The way I see it, the first thing that absolutely has to happen in order to bring peace and justice to the region, is for the highest level of the Israeli government to be outed and removed. They are massively corrupt and acting in bad faith in every single regard. People like Benjamin Netanyahu, and Isaac Herzog need to go, the far right leaning arm of Israel needs to go. The Palestinians don't need to do anything, saying the Palestinians need to do this or that, is gross to me and makes zero sense. Everything is on Israel, they can stop the violence at any time and choose not to. Remove the blockade on Gaza, remove the walls around the city, give all Palestinians the same rights as Israeli's, remove all military checkpoints and allow free movement for Palestinians. Give Palestinians justice, that includes bringing people like Netanyahu to trial and making him face justice under Palestinian law.
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Oct 23, 2023 20:33
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I said come in! posted:The way I see it, the first thing that absolutely has to happen in order to bring peace and justice to the region, is for the highest level of the Israeli government to be outed and removed. They are massively corrupt and acting in bad faith in every single regard. People like Benjamin Netanyahu, and Isaac Herzog need to go, the far right leaning arm of Israel needs to go. The Palestinians don't need to do anything, saying the Palestinians need to do this or that, is gross to me and makes zero sense. Everything is on Israel, they can stop the violence at any time and choose not to. I think one of the problems for the Israelis is they lack anyone with the stature to make concessions to the Palestinians at this point. You need someone from the now dead founding generation to do it to be acceptable to the domestic Israeli electorate (which is pretty right-leaning), and the last person who had said stature was prob Ariel Sharon Typo fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 20:38
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nessin posted:Because 1995 was the turnover from Gaza-Jericho and Oslo II, so Gaza had some self-determination and was making their own government decisions and laws. Specific to your comment here, 1995 is the point when "any decisions typically handled by a government handled by an occupying force that controlled their borders" was no longer an accurate statement thanks to Gaza-Jericho. In addition Egypt, who to remind you controls one of those borders, relations were still good as far as I'm aware and Israel wasn't enforcing a strict blockade like they were prior to that or after the 2005 election. The Gaza Israeli border [which has 4 crossings] was built in 1994. And before 2005 quote:In 1993, Israel and the Palestinian Liberation Organization signed the first of the Oslo Accords establishing the Palestinian Authority with limited administrative control of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Pursuant to the Accords, Israel continues to maintain control of the Gaza Strip's airspace, land borders (with the exception of Gaza's border with Egypt, abandoned by Israel in 2005), and territorial waters. And based on further reading, the Egyptian side of the border was only handed over to the them in 2004 pursuant to a new deal btw the countries quote:In 2004, the Knesset passed a resolution to unilaterally withdraw all Israeli citizens and forces from the Gaza Strip, which went into force in August 2005. To enable Israel's evacuation from the Philadelphi Corridor, while preventing smuggling of weapons from Egypt into the Gaza Strip and infiltration and other criminal activity, Israel signed with Egypt the "Agreed Arrangements Regarding the Deployment of a Designated Force of Border Guards Along the Border in the Rafah Area" (Philadelphi Accord) on 1 September 2005. Under the Philadelphi Accord, Egypt was authorized to deploy border guards along the Philadelphi route to patrol the border on Egypt's side.[4] Part of the agreement was a continuous coordination between Israel and Egypt regarding operations and intelligence.[5] The border control by Israel only shifted in location after 2005. If you have anything that disagrees please post it. But your statement that Palestinians had control over their borders before 2005 seems incorrect. Which is why I was wondering why you posted that without a source.
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Oct 23, 2023 20:38
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Looks like Hamas really was trying to negotiate the release of those two hostages. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinian-gaza-war-syria-lebanon-hamas-c0e7ec55428fedc97f75bdfdc0c0679a quote:RAFAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — The International Committee of the Red Cross says Hamas militants have released two hostages it had been holding captive in the Gaza Strip.
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Oct 23, 2023 20:41
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Typo posted:I think one of the problems for the Israelis is they lack anyone with the stature to make concessions to the Palestinians at this point. You need someone from the now dead founding generation to do it to be acceptable to the domestic Israeli electorate (which is pretty right-leaning), and the last person who had said stature was prob Ariel Sharon You're right, at this point any transition to a two/one-state solution would be understood by Jewish Israelis as a defeat. The only way they'll accept it is by losing an actual military war or by facing the prospect of endless debilitating boycott (even a boycott of products made in the West Bank wouldn't be enough). There are conflicts and disasters that kill more people, but I can't think of one as horribly, distressingly, infuriatingly hopeless as this one. Things are always getting worse and have no potential to get better.
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Oct 23, 2023 20:43
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Shageletic posted:The border control by Israel only shifted in location after 2005. If you have anything that disagrees please post it. But your statement that Palestinians had control over their borders before 2005 seems incorrect. Which is why I was wondering why you posted that without a source. I never said Palestinians had control over their border, so I'm not sure where you got that from and are hyper-focusing on that specific issue. Are you referring to the statement I quoted from your post? In which case the point is that the Gaza Strip gained a Palestinian government authority that could make it's own decisions and thus any decision typically handled by a government was no longer being handled by Israel, who controls most/all of their border. If Egypt didn't have any control of the border on their side of the strip until 2004 I'll admit I didn't know that, but that was just a point I was making that there were a lot less restrictions on the border at that time compared to pre-Oslo and post-Hamas government, which is true regardless of whomever controlled the western border.
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Oct 23, 2023 20:48
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nessin posted:Because 1995 was the turnover from Gaza-Jericho and Oslo II, so Gaza had some self-determination and was making their own government decisions and laws. Specific to your comment here, 1995 is the point when "any decisions typically handled by a government handled by an occupying force that controlled their borders" was no longer an accurate statement thanks to Gaza-Jericho. In addition Egypt, who to remind you controls one of those borders, relations were still good as far as I'm aware and Israel wasn't enforcing a strict blockade like they were prior to that or after the 2005 election. Israel was still an occupying force and still controlled Gaza's borders, territorial waters, and airspace. The fortified border fence and security checkpoints Israel uses to enforce the Gaza blockade were built in 1994. Despite that, and despite the continued expansion of Israeli settlements, Gaza was relatively peaceful for the five years specified in the Oslo Accords' five-year timeline for full Israeli withdrawal and transition to full Palestinian self-rule. Of course, that didn't happen, and in fact conditions even worsened for Palestinians in some ways. This paper from 2003 describes how Oslo had been implemented in practice and how things looked on the ground for Palestinians in the late 90s and early 00s: https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/jcs/article/view/220/378 quote:... Ultimately, after watching how Oslo actually played out in practice, the Palestinian people felt that the peace process was a sham and that Israel was using it merely to legitimize their occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, rather than ending it. As Israeli policy and decisions repeatedly disappointed those who had negotiated with them in good faith and made real concessions in the process, the factions committed to peaceful negotiation were discredited, and the balance of power shifted toward factions that felt that violence would be necessary to secure sufficient negotiation leverage to get Israel to actually stick to the agreements. And in the end, cases like the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000 and the withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 suggested to the Palestinian people that those factions were completely correct, teaching them that Israel would be more likely to make significant concessions and stick to them if pressured by violent action.
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Oct 23, 2023 20:54
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nessin posted:I never said Palestinians had control over their border, so I'm not sure where you got that from and are hyper-focusing on that specific issue. Are you referring to the statement I quoted from your post? In which case the point is that the Gaza Strip gained a Palestinian government authority that could make it's own decisions and thus any decision typically handled by a government was no longer being handled by Israel, who controls most/all of their border. If Egypt didn't have any control of the border on their side of the strip until 2004 I'll admit I didn't know that, but that was just a point I was making that there were a lot less restrictions on the border at that time compared to pre-Oslo and post-Hamas government, which is true regardless of whomever controlled the western border. Controlling your own borders is a pretty important feature of governance. You brought up the Egyptians controlling their side of the border before 2005, which made me look up to see if that was true. Which it seemingly isn't. Palestinians have never had the "chance" to control their own borders. The blockade in Gaza only changed in location and a level of severity in 2005. So I'm still wondering how the Palestinians had the chance to show the world how they could govern before that. Not to mention electricity, water, visas, and the administration of taxes and police powers were still in some or total control by Israel during that time. You made the comment. You've been wrong on an important fact so far. What made you post it, and what are the sources for it?
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Oct 23, 2023 20:56
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 20:58
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