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Raenir Salazar posted:I think it's possible to be sympathetic to the cause of Palestinian liberation but also hope Hamas is replaced by a more constructive and less vile organization, there's no need to support the continued relevance of Hamas in its current form. There's so many examples of successful resistance movements who manage to eke out victories without committing atrocities there's no justification as to why Hamas is the exception. I mean we all witnessed what happened during the Right to Return protests right? Mostly nonviolent met with brutality by the IOF. People and kids killed or maimed and there wasn't any mainstream condemnation.
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Oct 24, 2023 19:29
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I said come in! posted:I never said I supported their atrocities. Others jumped to that conclusion all on their own. I just said I am not comfortable with calling them terrorists, because its used as a blanket term to completely dismiss their cause and invalidate the freedom they want for Palestinians. What you said is right there - you don't think there's anything wrong with supporting Hamas. Unless this is some "love the sinner, hate the sin" stuff where you support Hamas, you just don't support the most important thing Hamas has ever done in its entire history. You didn't just say you're uncomfortable with calling them terrorists, you said you don't think there's anything wrong with supporting them.
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Oct 24, 2023 19:30
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Well, here you go. quote:Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with supporting hamas. quote:At best, attending a music festival outside one of the worst humanitarian and political injustices of our time is a deeply ghoulish and callous act; at worst, it's part of a wider cultural industry that works to normalise the suffering and killing of Palestinians. quote:I believe that being a people being genocided or enslaved should not be expected to adhere to morality imposed on them by people living in safety and comfort during their struggles against their oppressors. I also believe that anyone who doesn't at least agree that oppressed peoples' resistance has relaxed moral guidelines then they're only paying lip service to the idea of liberation. quote:If your stance is that Palestinian violence against the Israelis that have brutally oppressed, tortured, maimed, murdered, raped, stolen from, debased, shamed, humiliated, mocked, and otherwise devastated them for generations is in any way inevitable, understandable, or -- heaven forfend -- justified I must disagree in the strongest possible terms quote:E: Everyone wants Palestine and Hamas to be *better* than the murderous, indiscriminate Israelis, despite the Palestinians having a thousandth of the power of Israel. You want Palestine to forego justice and show unearned mercy to their tormentors in exchange for nothing, while Israel continues to murder and maraude unchecked.
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Oct 24, 2023 19:31
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Marenghi posted:
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Oct 24, 2023 19:33
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punishedkissinger posted:that is one of the fundamental questions for Palestinians right? Fatah has never been able to stop the settlements and Hamas did. A lot of good that did Gaza, considering what is currently happening there due to the Al Aqsa flood attacks.
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Oct 24, 2023 19:37
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I said come in! posted:I never said I supported their atrocities. Others jumped to that conclusion all on their own. I just said I am not comfortable with calling them terrorists, because its used as a blanket term to completely dismiss their cause and invalidate the freedom they want for Palestinians. do you really think hamas gives even an ounce of a poo poo about the average Palestinian?
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Oct 24, 2023 19:38
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Josef bugman posted:And if those bad actions help it? Should you justify it then? How about the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? They were believed to be necessary to make the war end, did it make it okay to nuke two cities if the result was Japanese surrender? What if the least bad option of your choices is still an atrocity but a lesser one in comparison to say, a land invasion of the Japanese home islands? The solution to this is not to pick the least bad option, it is to take action to change the situation itself so that your options aren't all atrocities HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 19:41
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I said come in! posted:I never said I supported their atrocities. Others jumped to that conclusion all on their own. I just said I am not comfortable with calling them terrorists, because its used as a blanket term to completely dismiss their cause and invalidate the freedom they want for Palestinians. Do you believe that referring to Hamas as a terrorist organization is being used a blanket term to dismiss the cause of the Palestinian movement? If so, that is really confusing because while the official government of Gaza might be Hamas it is also a fundamental Islamic movement that wants the destruction of the entire state of Israel at the potential expense of well... anyone. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 19:41
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Marenghi posted:Supporting Hamas in their campaign against Israel isn't condoning atrocities. You can support a group while condemning their worse actions. If you don't see ANYTHING wrong with supporting Hamas after everything that happened in Al-Aqsa Flood, then you must support one of the most significant parts of Al-Aqsa Flood, which was mass civilian slaughter. Otherwise "a total disinterest toward, or inability to prevent, mass civilian slaughter" would be something wrong with supporting Hamas. You might support Hamas anyway, but you'd at least see the concern. quote:True statement. Doesn't mean you support the slaughter that happened at the music festival. It's the "the victims were no angels" approach to defending the attacks as not so bad, partially deserved really, no different from when Zionist say "yes what's happening in Gaza is a shame but many of them hate Jews, so..." quote:This intersects with what I've said. Find me a oppressed peoples' resistance movement that doesn't have at least some blood on their hands. quote:Am I parsing this wrong or are they disagreeing with the idea that Palestinian violence is justified? Yes you are parsing it wrong. It is obviously sarcasm. Very, very obviously. quote:Again this isn't saying Hamas atrocities are good. It's just asking why are they being held to a higher standard than the structured state military that is the IDF. A number of users here think that what Hamas did is partially or completely defensible because Israel is so incredibly evil toward the Palestinians. Do you really think nobody here believes that? Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 19:42
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ummel posted:A lot of good that did Gaza, considering what is currently happening there due to the Al Aqsa flood attacks. I mean Israel is facing serious economic hardships as a direct consequence of this war, its current government is massively unpopular at home because of this attack, its international reputation is getting dragged through the mud because it predictably started hammering the "massacre civilians" button (which maybe doesn't matter so much for Western powers but clearly matters for people in the region), and it's hesitating at the threshold of a ground invasion because it's both unclear that its military can really handle that sort of fighting and it also needs to worry about inciting action from other powerful regional actors. I'm personally skeptical this ends well, but the prior status quo of slow genocide has been rendered untenable and this might be the first time in a while Israel might have to seriously reconsider its occupation.
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Oct 24, 2023 19:42
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Raenir Salazar posted:I think it's possible to be sympathetic to the cause of Palestinian liberation but also hope Hamas is replaced by a more constructive and less vile organization, there's no need to support the continued relevance of Hamas in its current form. There's so many examples of successful resistance movements who manage to eke out victories without committing atrocities there's no justification as to why Hamas is the exception. Care to point to those, especially ones who tried the peaceful route and were suppressed. Off-hand I can think of MLK. The IRA armed campaign started in the 70s because the British police forces massacred unarmed civilians who were peacefully protesting. Thereby demonstrating that peaceful methods would not work and necessitated a guerilla campaign. Which has parallels to what is currently happening in Gaza. Israel has shown peaceful, 'constructive' methods will be met with violent suppression, so it's unsurprising a military campaign is re-continued. Civilized Fishbot posted:If you don't see ANYTHING wrong with supporting Hamas after everything that happened in Al-Aqsa Flood, then you must support one of the most significant parts of Al-Aqsa Flood, which was mass civilian slaughter. Otherwise "a total disinterest toward, or inability to prevent, mass civilian slaughter" would be something wrong with supporting Hamas. You might support Hamas anyway, but you'd at least see the concern. The IRA carried out retaliatory sectarian killings, which I would not support. But I still support their campaign, their cause and what they achieved. The Kingsmill massacre for example, while not anywhere near the scale of what was carried out on Al-Aqsa Flood, was an atrocity that I cannot defend. Does that mean I am a hypocrite or completely lacking a moral compass for supporting the IRA? Typo posted:not really disputing the overall point but both the IRA and the uMkhonto we Sizwe was pretty explicitly in targeting the material and symbolic apparatus of the state like the army. the courts and the police. There were civilian casualties to be sure but at least they were either collateral damage or alleged informers/collaborators. I don't think either group ever did a wholesale massacre of civilians at any point. Look up the Kingsmill Massacre. An IRA cell executed random protestants solely for being protestant. No one will ever know whether that was carried out under orders from high command or it was the rogue actions of a cell. But were it the latter it does point to how difficult it is to control the actions of every member, when an organization operates in a decentralized manner by necessity of being an underground resistance movement. Marenghi fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 19:42
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wins32767 posted:D&D premise is inherently liberal, it's that rational discussion can change minds. The authoritarian impulse to silence someone you disagree with isn't how functioning liberalism works. For something like reacting to "Doctors helping patients is bad, actually, and they are the same as terrorists" I'm not sure if "silence someone you disagree with" is doing enough heavy lifting. Like, "oh, no. where will discourse be if we can't argue that doctors are terrorists, actually"
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Oct 24, 2023 19:45
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Raenir Salazar posted:I think it's possible to be sympathetic to the cause of Palestinian liberation but also hope Hamas is replaced by a more constructive and less vile organization, there's no need to support the continued relevance of Hamas in its current form. There's so many examples of successful resistance movements who manage to eke out victories without committing atrocities there's no justification as to why Hamas is the exception. Non-violent resistance typically requires either: 1. A violent resistance that pressures the oppressor; the nonviolent resistance becomes an offramp for the oppressors to save face; you shake hands with sit-in activists instead of the Black Panthers. This still requires the Black Panthers (in this case Hamas) to exist, though. 2. Nonviolent methods that inflict economic or geopolitical damage more expensive than the oppression is worth. Palestine has tried this with BDS and with the fence protest; the former was rendered illegal in many countries & never matched the millions settlers generate, the latter didn't amount to anything because Israel said "Terror Kites" and started blasting away at kneecaps with impunity. "War is the continuation of policy with other means." Is equally applicable to resistance. Nonviolent resistance has been rendered impotent, that leaves violent resistance.
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Oct 24, 2023 19:51
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Marenghi posted:The Kingsmill massacre for example, while not anywhere near the scale of what was carried out on Al-Aqsa Flood, was an atrocity that I cannot defend. Does that mean I am a hypocrite or completely lacking a moral compass for supporting the IRA? If you said immediately after the Kingsmill massacre that you didn't see ANYTHING wrong with supporting the IRA, then I'd assume you didn't really object to the massacre. Otherwise "IRA operations can lead to events like the Kingsmill massacre" is obviously something wrong with supporting the IRA, even if, on balance, supporting the IRA is still right. I think the first part of your post is correct, but come on, there are people in this thread who think that Hamas killing all those civilians was either good or not a big deal.
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Oct 24, 2023 19:53
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We all remember the George Floyd protests and the last effects of that movement.
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Oct 24, 2023 19:54
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Marenghi posted:Care to point to those, especially ones who tried the peaceful route and were suppressed. That's a really bad parallel. Hamas specifically targets innocent civilians on purpose and puts it's own population at risk. The IRA did hurt civilians over time unlike Hamas put effort to avoid hurting innocent bystanders and even called into the press, law enforcement, etc. to avoid or at the at least minimize causalities. That said, do you really think war or any kind of violent conflict by either the West Bank or the Gaza Strip is going to get them any closer to their own state or Israeli citizenship?
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Oct 24, 2023 19:56
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Groovelord Neato posted:Nobody with a functioning brain is ever going to buy "it was a PJI rocket misfire" because the IDF is still repeating claims debunked two weeks ago (as shown in the replies this happened in the IDF-backed Sabra and Shatila massacre over 40 years ago). They continue to fabricate evidence (or claim certain documents are things they are not) about Hamas terror manuals that even a child could see through. They also of course did the "PJI rocket misfire" lie during the last bombardment when they killed five kids. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...eb-ffffee6f0000 quote:The first thing that hits you upon entering the center for identification of the dead next to Ramle is the unbearable stench of death. No mask can protect you from it. The Shura military base – which under normal circumstances is the main camp of the Israeli army’s Rabbinate – has become an end point. It is a horrific drainage basin into which the terrible river of the dead empties, until the deceased are sent to their final rest. How do we ever know the real story?
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Oct 24, 2023 20:00
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:That said, do you really think war or any kind of violent conflict by either the West Bank or the Gaza Strip is going to get them any closer to their own state or Israeli citizenship? Time will tell I guess? Currently they have put Israel into an extremely complicated position that Israel never imagined themselves being in. There is more pressure on Israel than ever before to find a peaceful solution, and to not go in guns blazing, and Israel might be fighting a war on multiple fronts depending on what they choose to do next in Gaza. This tweet thread was shared yesterday in this thread but is a good summary of how Israel is maybe hosed and might be forced into reaching compromises that they really don't want https://twitter.com/SwordMercury/status/1715410699680198979
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Oct 24, 2023 20:02
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:That's a really bad parallel. Hamas specifically targets innocent civilians on purpose and puts it's own population at risk. The IRA did hurt civilians over time unlike Hamas put effort to avoid hurting innocent bystanders and even called into the press, law enforcement, etc. to avoid or at the at least minimize causalities. I wish people would read the history of the actual IRA and stop using this mythical, clean version which has been whitewashed with the time that has passed. Same with how people speak of the ANC as it's remembered now having successfully achieved it's aim. Where their worse tenancies are forgotten. The IRA carried out random, sectarian killings which was counter-productive, which they learnt from and stopped doing it. I hope Hamas learns from the recent conflict that they would have more support if they reeled their men in. Yes, I think peaceful methods have shown to be futile. I think these attacks have shaken the Israeli's especially with regards to the security afforded by their much vaunted security barrier. I think Israeli's feeling insecure might encourage them to seek peaceful resolutions to the conflict, knowing that they cannot indefinitely cage Gaza in an open-air prison.
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Oct 24, 2023 20:05
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E2M2 posted:I mean we all witnessed what happened during the Right to Return protests right? Mostly nonviolent met with brutality by the IOF. People and kids killed or maimed and there wasn't any mainstream condemnation. Marenghi posted:Care to point to those, especially ones who tried the peaceful route and were suppressed. Neurolimal posted:Non-violent resistance typically requires either: What? Are all three of you independently self-reporting that in your view that resistance necessitates atrocity? Or, more charitably, did all three of you happen to fundamentally misunderstand my post in the exact same way because at NO point did I say that the only valid form of resistance to occupation was peaceful and nonviolent. I don't recall the Chinese Red Army engaging in atrocities under Mao despite both the IJA and KMT doing so and that's what I had in mind. I said come in! posted:Time will tell I guess? Currently they have put Israel into an extremely complicated position that Israel never imagined themselves being in. There is more pressure on Israel than ever before to find a peaceful solution, and to not go in guns blazing, and Israel might be fighting a war on multiple fronts depending on what they choose to do next in Gaza. Does this twitter account have any official standing? They seem like a random juche enthusiest tweeting a lot of nonsense like "sweden is not a settler state" when hello, the Sami? Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 20:07
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Marenghi posted:I wish people would read the history of the actual IRA and stop using this mythical, clean version which has been whitewashed with the time that has passed. Same with how people speak of the ANC as it's remembered now having successfully achieved it's aim. Where their worse tenancies are forgotten. What clean version was represented? Marenghi posted:The IRA carried out random, sectarian killings which was counter-productive, which they learnt from and stopped doing it. I hope Hamas learns from the recent conflict that they would have more support if they reeled their men in. The IRA's goal is was independence. The goal of Hamas is to destroy the State of Israel. Those are two very different things. Marenghi posted:Yes, I think peaceful methods have shown to be futile. I think these attacks have shaken the Israeli's especially with regards to the security afforded by their much vaunted security barrier. I think Israeli's feeling insecure might encourage them to seek peaceful resolutions to the conflict, knowing that they cannot indefinitely cage Gaza in an open-air prison. Considering that they are basically carpet bombing the Gaza Strip and preparing an invasion I can't agree with this conclusion. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 20:11
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I said come in! posted:Time will tell I guess? Currently they have put Israel into an extremely complicated position that Israel never imagined themselves being in. There is more pressure on Israel than ever before to find a peaceful solution, and to not go in guns blazing  lol@the entire thread it's like reading tom clancy if clancy was a hamas supporter Typo fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 20:16
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:The IRA's goal is was independence. The goal of Hamas is to destroy the State of Israel. Those are two very different things. These things can change under the right circumstances. Which is really the only option because the idea that Israeli is going to "eradicate Hamas" is nonsense. Hamas has had relatively moderate members before who did recognize Israel's right to exist (and who were also arrested by Israel for no reason I might add.) They are going to need to negotiate with Hamas and probably a good way to begin would be stopping indiscriminate and ineffective bombing campaigns in the Gaza Strip, no more mass civilian casualty events perpetrated by Israel, and an end to the apartheid-like conditions of the West Bank. The other option is ethnic cleansing which also appears to be on the table I guess. I don't see a third option, so which of these would you prefer is the question?
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Oct 24, 2023 20:24
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:What clean version was represented? The IRA wanted to end the existence of the statelet explicitly created to have a colonist religious minority be in power in perpetuity, and reintegrate that stolen territory into the Irish state.
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Oct 24, 2023 20:24
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Raenir Salazar posted:Does this twitter account have any official standing? They seem like a random juche enthusiest tweeting a lot of nonsense like "sweden is not a settler state" when hello, the Sami?
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Oct 24, 2023 20:25
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:The IRA's goal is was independence. The goal of Hamas is to destroy the State of Israel. Those are two very different things. Destroying the state of Israel is not the same as wanting to kill everyone living in it (on the other hand Israel has stated they want the death of all Palestinians). Hamas has openly supported a two state solution as well. Their main point is that Israel is an illegally formed state that took away from Palestinian lands without their consent. It makes no sense to me to say that Palestinians shouldn't want the state of Israel to be destroyed, its creation should never have happened in the first place. Typo posted:lol@the entire thread What about it do you not agree with? It lines up with this article from the New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/23/us/politics/israel-us-gaza-invasion.html which mentions that the State Department does not think Israeli's goals are achievable. I said come in! fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 20:27
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Marenghi posted:Care to point to those, especially ones who tried the peaceful route and were suppressed. The US women’s suffrage movement
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Oct 24, 2023 20:27
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:What clean version was represented? quote:The IRA's goal is was independence. The goal of Hamas is to destroy the State of Israel. Those are two very different things. quote:Considering that they are basically carpet bombing the Gaza Strip and preparing an invasion I can't agree with this conclusion. At the moment, but in a years time how will it go. The initial commentary from the attack it seems Israeli's no longer believe their security barrier is impenetrable. They really seemed to be a sense that they had contained Gaza for all time. An advanced tech driven barrier they couldn't cross, and the iron dome containing their rockets. Now they are not so invincible. If they cannot entirely contain Gaza there's only two other options. Fully ethnically cleanse Palestinians from the area by mass deportation, or find a solution which removes the need for violence on Palestine's part, i.e. a peaceful resolution. Kalit posted:The US women’s suffrage movement It does show that when afforded concessions from peaceful measures, movements can be successful without needing to resort to violence. But also violence is rarely the first method of resistance. Most movements resort to violence when peaceful demonstrations are put down violently by the oppressing state. Marenghi fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 20:29
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I said come in! posted:Destroying the state of Israel is not the same as wanting to kill everyone living in it (on the other hand Israel has stated they want the death of all Palestinians). Hamas has openly supported a two state solution as well. Their main point is that Israel is an illegally formed state that took away from Palestinian lands without their consent. It makes no sense to me to say that Palestinians shouldn't want the state of Israel to be destroyed, its creation should never have happened in the first place. not everyone no but if hamas like gets an army and conquers Israel next year rest assured there will be lots and lots of dead Jewish Israelis
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Oct 24, 2023 20:29
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Typo posted:not everyone no but if hamas like gets an army and conquers Israel next year rest assured there will be lots and lots of dead Jewish Israelis Sounds like we should work to a peaceful end to this then huh
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Oct 24, 2023 20:34
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Typo posted:not everyone no but if hamas like gets an army and conquers Israel next year rest assured there will be lots and lots of dead Jewish Israelis I do not think there's any world in which the United States sits by and lets Palestine conquer Israel and genocide them.
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Oct 24, 2023 20:34
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:That said, do you really think war or any kind of violent conflict by either the West Bank or the Gaza Strip is going to get them any closer to their own state or Israeli citizenship? This hinges on the word "closer". How close or far are they? What other actions are available and would they do a better or worse job? As far as I can tell, there are two general possibilities for the people of Palestine. Option one is lie down and succumb to slow genocide at the hands of the Israeli government via arbitrary bombing and displacement. This seems certain to happen eventually, as the broader world has indicated that it doesn't care about (or actively approves of) those actions. It might take decades, but a long history of bad-faith agreements and broken treaties demonstrate that it's the overall goal of Israeli government policy. 100% chance of destruction, one day. The other option available is direct conflict, which might spark the Israelis to kill and displace the people of Palestine faster than they would otherwise, but does also have some chance of sparking neighbors to take action, or making the general Israeli citizenry (and/or American citizenry) uncomfortable enough at the active, accelerated genocide that they grow a conscience and try to sway their governments. Given the choice between a 100% chance of your culture being destroyed slowly, or a 99% of chance of faster destruction but a 1% chance of finding a way out, I can see why the latter option might be more appealing.
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Oct 24, 2023 20:35
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Adenoid Dan posted:Sounds like we should work to a peaceful end to this then huh one state, emcompassing all of historic Palestine: built on the principles of liberty and equality between Jews and Arabs, with the capital at Jerusalem.
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Oct 24, 2023 20:40
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Raenir Salazar posted:Does this twitter account have any official standing? They seem like a random juche enthusiest tweeting a lot of nonsense like "sweden is not a settler state" when hello, the Sami? Sweden is not a settler state in the year 2023 and afaik while the Swedish (and Norwegian and Finnish) government has pursued assimilatory policies, those are very meaningfully distinct from settler policies.
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Oct 24, 2023 20:40
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I said come in! posted:Destroying the state of Israel is not the same as wanting to kill everyone living in it (on the other hand Israel has stated they want the death of all Palestinians). Hamas has openly supported a two state solution as well. Their main point is that Israel is an illegally formed state that took away from Palestinian lands without their consent. It makes no sense to me to say that Palestinians shouldn't want the state of Israel to be destroyed, its creation should never have happened in the first place. As Typo says this is a goal impossible without a mountain of Israeli corpses. If I say "I wish to destroy the Chinese Communist Party" this would be without a doubt genocidal rhetoric by any reasonable metric, because there is no plausible scenario today where that can happen without millions of people dying. Even though China is not the same thing as the CCP, it's kinda hard to get at Xi without going through the PLA and a lot of Chinese cities. Similarly the position that Israel is an illegal formed state is false, Israel was formed as a culmination of the Palistinian Mandate granted as part of the League of Nations and the subsequent UN partition accepted by the UN, both largely correspond with what represented legal international actions as best that can be described. You can argue about where the borders should be but the green line is pretty noncontroversial as the minimum. So wanting the state of Israel to be destroyed, meaning Israel as an independent sovereign state with independent borders from Palestine as the Israeli citizens are presumed to want via their own right to self determination is pretty unreasonable as an ask. The clock cannot be turned back without committing evils just as bad as what youre decrying against.
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Oct 24, 2023 20:44
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Raenir Salazar posted:As Typo says this is a goal impossible without a mountain of Israeli corpses. If I say "I wish to destroy the Chinese Communist Party" this would be without a doubt genocidal rhetoric by any reasonable metric, because there is no plausible scenario today where that can happen without millions of people dying. Even though China is not the same thing as the CCP, it's kinda hard to get at Xi without going through the PLA and a lot of Chinese cities. They are taking the stance that all of Israel is stolen land, which is unambiguously true. The "legality" of it does not change that one iota. It is not reasonable to expect Palestinians to bargain from Israel's starting position.
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Oct 24, 2023 20:46
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 20:48
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Raenir Salazar posted:As Typo says this is a goal impossible without a mountain of Israeli corpses. If I say "I wish to destroy the Chinese Communist Party" this would be without a doubt genocidal rhetoric by any reasonable metric, because there is no plausible scenario today where that can happen without millions of people dying. Even though China is not the same thing as the CCP, it's kinda hard to get at Xi without going through the PLA and a lot of Chinese cities. I'm struggling to see how this argument would not be just as applicable to apartheid south africa? If Israeli self determination requires putting Palestinians in ghettos then that seems like it runs rather heavily against the limits of what self determination can mean? How is it distinct from the idea that black South Africans can not be integrated because they would infringe on the rights and liberties of the white population?
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Oct 24, 2023 20:50
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mannerup posted:you posted a thread from some edgy 4chan incel as analysis lmfao (examples are here, here, here, here, here and here) Then refer to my previous post with the New York Times article about the U.S. State Department saying the same thing.
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Oct 24, 2023 20:54
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shades of blue posted:Sweden is not a settler state in the year 2023 and afaik while the Swedish (and Norwegian and Finnish) government has pursued assimilatory policies, those are very meaningfully distinct from settler policies. Sweden needs to be destroyed for their crimes
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Oct 24, 2023 20:55
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