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Groovelord Neato posted:This is so much less realistic than a one-state solution. Any two-state solution would require the expulsion of the settlers they are there illegally to steal land. "The rights of the settlers are respected" what rights? They attack and kill Palestinians, destroy their infrastructure, and steal their homes whenever they please. They are the biggest psychopaths among the Israeli population they are the people who'd least accept being part of a Palestinian state. No? No one state solution is feasible except for literally asking Israel to get it over with and annex Palestine and internationally pressuring them to be slightly less lovely but it isn't going to be what you want, nor would I agree that it would be as good for Palestinians as simply Israel stopping what its doing even with the settlements still in place. Any variation of the reverse is about as realistic as time travel. There's no feasible one state solution that isn't a "be careful what you wish for" scenario.
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Oct 25, 2023 15:03
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Darth Walrus posted:Good points made in this thread on the subject of Gazan casualty numbers: does Israel ever even dispute the casualties? their MO seems to just be that the civilians had it coming because Hamas
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Oct 25, 2023 15:04
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So the conclusion of the thread is that neither the 1 State solution or the 2 State solution will work? That sounds about right and helps to explain the last 80 years.
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Oct 25, 2023 15:12
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Shageletic posted:Thanks for the added information. Everyone should care about this. Yes. Most of the Bedouin live in the Negev and nowadays most of them live in urban (recognised) cities and towns (around 60% from figures I could find) . The unrecognised ones are usually very small "villages", and not always occupied year round. This I think is kind of a separate problem than the general Palestinian one, but more of a problem thst also exists in other parts of the world where modern governments have hard time dealing with nomadic/seminomadic people and try to force them to settle in "official" places.
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Oct 25, 2023 15:14
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daslog posted:So the conclusion of the thread is that neither the 1 State solution or the 2 State solution will work? That sounds about right and helps to explain the last 80 years. Either could work . . . If both Israel and Palestine had entirely different leadership. And that new leadership wasn't assassinated.
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Oct 25, 2023 15:18
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A two-state solution was possible pre-2005/2006 or so, but it’s absolutely not possible now. There are just too many settlements in the West Bank today, and on top of that the Israeli government leadership is now even less interested in compromise than 20 years ago.
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Oct 25, 2023 15:22
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Either could work . . . If both Israel and Palestine had entirely different leadership. Well, to be a little more accurate, it isn't just a matter of leadership, but also what the people want. Israelis currently almost certainly wouldnt approve via referendum a one state solution. Any solution would work if both the leadership and people supported it.
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Oct 25, 2023 15:26
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If the US was half as concerned with exporting the ideals of secularism and inclusivity that are literally enshrined in our constitution as we are with capitalism, Israel could be bent into accepting a one state solution that loses the Jewish political majority. But a major American party literally wants the US to become an ethnostate, and the other one is led by octogenarians clutching onto the Cold War.
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Oct 25, 2023 15:34
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Again, stop mischaracterizing my position. I’m saying there’s no incentive for a power change within Israel until the underlying fears that gives their bad actors power is changed or the enablers (Biden/US) stop enabling. Of course any individual can just stop and choose to be nice, but these are egomaniac leaders who don’t just have change of hearts and can’t just stop, someone more ruthless than them will step into their place if they try to back off without underlying changes. Pointing out this reality of how geopolitics works is not an endorsement to commit atrocities. And those underlying fears are a problem largely perpetuated by the actions of those same egomaniac leaders and aren't going to change until Israel abandons the policies that deliberately stoke those fears. Saying that Israel won't change course until those fears go away isn't necessarily an endorsement of that course but it is an implicit admission that the status quo is going to persist indefinitely, to the general detriment of all involved. I choose to believe that democratic change is possible, especially after the dramatic failure of Israel's strongman security policy, but I admit that I don't have much evidence for this position beyond hopes and dreams.
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Oct 25, 2023 15:35
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Sorry to barge in but need a quick update What is the thread's opinion on How The gently caress Did Hamas Radicals Manage to Enter Israel and Slaughter All Those People? Wasnt there like, a fence with soldiers ready to counter them? It is a question that's been haunting me since day1 but have been too afraid to ask, until today. e: I am a degenerate Trance enthusiast and did not want to consider what scenarios might be entertained by the question above. Mr. Pickles fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 15:42
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Mr. Pickles posted:Sorry to barge in but need a quick update they used a bulldozer to demolish the fence no there werent a lot of soldiers ready to defend the fence, they thought the fence would be enough, so they were loving off and literally got caught in their pajamas when hamas showed up
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Oct 25, 2023 15:45
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Mr. Pickles posted:Sorry to barge in but need a quick update Combination of factors; 1) Israel was focused more on West Bank stuff due to settlements. 2) Hamas has been for years practicing having militants approach the border fence and move back, lulling Israel into false sense of security, this time they didn't fall back but went through. 3) Multiple breakthroughs and methods through/over, such as using paragliders/bulldozers/and even some seaborne vessels. 4) Some sort of electronic warfare that disabled motion sensors and cameras along the border (most likely chance for Iran to interfere) 5) Attacked right before/during a major holiday, Israeli military was more relaxed/undermanned. According to some Isreali soldiers, in some of the Kibbutz that were massacred, Hamas fighters snuck in, hid under porches (houses in some Kibbutz are raised), and shot civilians as they tried to flee.
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Oct 25, 2023 15:53
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Didn’t Hamas also manage to take out the base that operates the security and cameras for the fence?
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Oct 25, 2023 15:53
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Raenir Salazar posted:No? No one state solution is feasible except for literally asking Israel to get it over with and annex Palestine and internationally pressuring them to be slightly less lovely but it isn't going to be what you want, nor would I agree that it would be as good for Palestinians as simply Israel stopping what its doing even with the settlements still in place. Any variation of the reverse is about as realistic as time travel. There's no feasible one state solution that isn't a "be careful what you wish for" scenario. Yes it's much less realistic it's why I said it's much less realistic and explained why. A one-state solution would be democratic it wouldn't be the current situation but with Israel having (even more) control of everything.
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Oct 25, 2023 15:54
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KillHour posted:If the US was half as concerned with exporting the ideals of secularism and inclusivity that are literally enshrined in our constitution as we are with capitalism, Israel could be bent into accepting a one state solution that loses the Jewish political majority. But a major American party literally wants the US to become an ethnostate, and the other one is led by octogenarians clutching onto the Cold War. You could also suggest something more along the lines of what Canada does regarding Quebec in constitutionally enshrining a distinct nation with a unique character and thus has specific guarantees and protections. Groovelord Neato posted:Yes it's much less realistic it's why I said it's much less realistic and explained why. A one-state solution would be democratic it wouldn't be the current situation but with Israel having control of everything. But what you're suggesting isnt actually much less realistic and you didn't explain why. You just explained that you don't like the current situation or don't like that proposal or don't think it's realistic either but nothing that convincingly argues whose proposal is more realistic. Your proposal is less realistic because it requires the military occupation of Israel, which is as far as we can tell today is not plausible. Israel having elections that elects a less lovely government that's willing to offer concessions is ultimately always more plausible until the day Bibi declares himself Emperor and abolished the Knesset. Also to add asserting that a one state solution would be absolutely democratic and guarantee the rights of Israelis is just speculation, you ultimately don't know how it would shake out. It'd be nice if a hypothetical OSS was like that, but we can't pretend that invariably it would be without a lot of leg work and negotiation and compromise between mutually respecting parties. The most likely version right now of a OSS happening is precisely what you're describing you think wouldn't happen, which is absolutely Israel having more control. You've not disputed this. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 15:55
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OctaMurk posted:they used a bulldozer to demolish the fence So will the IDF just surround Gaza and make it look like the DMZ after all this?
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Oct 25, 2023 15:59
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OctaMurk posted:they thought the fence would be enough, so they were loving off and literally got caught in their pajamas when hamas showed up It's not just a fence though, it features an automated defense system with advanced optics and videocameras, tracking computers and software for targets, and unmanned automatic weapons emplacements. One of the ways Hamas was able to get through this system was by destroying the automated camera and machinegun nests with cheap UAVs. With this sophisticated automated surveillance and weapons system the IDF incorrectly believed they would be able to keep the Palestinians in check. OctaMurk posted:they used a bulldozer to demolish the fence Pretty sure that was an IDF bulldozer, the same kind they use to raze villages and that crushed that American peace activist that stood in the way of one a couple decades ago. BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 16:01
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pro starcraft loser posted:So will the IDF just surround Gaza and make it look like the DMZ after all this? The idea seems to be to push them over into Egypt and take over the strip for settlement, whether Egypt likes it or not They want all the Gazans out, doesn't matter whether they leave or die, really
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Oct 25, 2023 16:03
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Zzulu posted:Surely no one actually believes it possible? I thought all these arguments for peaceful "solutions" itt were just thought excercises. At this point, a one-state solution isn't really any less possible than any of the other options. Everyone prefers a two-state solution since it's more convenient in a lot of ways, but Israel has turned that into an utter joke. Crosby B. Alfred posted:Why? I don't see why "it was largely rumored that the Palestinians would get something" is worth anything at all. The Palestinians weren't even involved in the negotiations. There's no reason for them to put their faith in a deal where they aren't even at the table, especially given that Arab states haven't exactly been reliable backers of the Palestinian cause in recent decades. As far as I'm aware, the general consensus of both foreign policy experts and Israeli sources was that the negotiations would end with the Palestinians being thrown under the bus. The Saudis wouldn't push very hard on demands for the Palestinian sake, especially given that MBS was already known to have little real interest in the Palestinian cause. Besides, several other Arab states have normalized relations with Israel in the last few years, and that only made things worse for Palestinians. "Without conflict, there's no need for Hamas" isn't true at all. Hamas has a robust social services program, they've never been just a militant faction. On top of that, they've been running the civilian government for over a decade and a half now. For them, violence is a means, not an end. They'd be perfectly capable of surviving a peace deal...which is part of why Israel and the US refuse to involve them in peace negotiations of any sort, preferring to deal exclusively with the collaborationist wing of Fatah. Mr. Pickles posted:Sorry to barge in but need a quick update It's going to be a long while before we have any conclusive info on that, since this is a political minefield that'll torpedo the careers of anyone who ends up saddled with the blame for it. But the general consensus I've seen so far is that the IDF focused too much on the West Bank (which is more vulnerable due to settlers being in such close proximity to Palestinians) and put too much faith in electronic border monitoring systems that weren't quite up to the task in some way.
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Oct 25, 2023 16:07
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From George Washington University the other night: Anecdotally, i've heard a lot of Jews, even of the left persuasion, say they feel incredibly unsafe on college campuses. The number of incidents where student groups are just parroting pro-genocide talking points against Israel is insane.
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Oct 25, 2023 16:11
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Mister Fister posted:Anecdotally, i've heard a lot of Jews, even of the left persuasion, say they feel incredibly unsafe on college campuses. The number of incidents where student groups are just parroting pro-genocide talking points against Israel is insane. Anecdotally I've been hearing the same from my Palestinian friends and family, but instead of only college campuses it's everywhere in public.
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Oct 25, 2023 16:12
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Civilian casualties from war (or whatever we're calling the ongoing ethnic cleansing by Israel) are referred to as martyrs, that is not in fact a pro-genocide message. Neither were the other messages, such as "Free palestine from the river to the sea" or "divestment from zionist genocide now"
TGLT fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 16:13
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Mister Fister posted:Anecdotally, i've heard a lot of Jews, even of the left persuasion, say they feel incredibly unsafe on college campuses. The number of incidents where student groups are just parroting pro-genocide talking points against Israel is insane. I'm hearing that from hipsters at the local coffee shop too. BUUNNI posted:Anecdotally I've been hearing the same from my Palestinian friends and family, but instead of only college campuses it's everywhere in public. "I feel unsafe" I say as people saying we shouldn't slaughter civilians lose jobs and job offers or resign from tech conferences and there are laws in the majority of states making it illegal to boycott Israel if you want to do business with the state in any capacity. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 16:14
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:
I think they used drones similar to what has been used in ukraine.
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Oct 25, 2023 16:14
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Raenir Salazar posted:You could also suggest something more along the lines of what Canada does regarding Quebec in constitutionally enshrining a distinct nation with a unique character and thus has specific guarantees and protections. The only problem with this is that the parts that would demand to be a part of Israeli Quebec are the parts that also have a lot of religious significance to Muslims and Christians. A staunchly secular government with strong constitutional protections for religion would be no worse for Jews than an overtly Jewish government. It would only be worse for people who hate Muslims.
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Oct 25, 2023 16:14
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Mister Fister posted:The number of incidents where student groups are just parroting pro-genocide talking points against Israel is insane. What are the pro-genocide talking points against Israel that are being parroted?
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Oct 25, 2023 16:16
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Mister Fister posted:From George Washington University the other night: Maybe supporting Israel after years of apartheid and ethnic cleansing should be an unsafe position We generally shun people who talk wistfully about Rhodesia too Edit: Mister Fister posted:I haven't heard of crowds of people calling for the genocide of palestinians, meanwhile, we have rallies where the crowd are shouting 'gas the jews' over and over again: No it's just virtually everyone in our government and the president of the United States Engorged Pedipalps fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 16:17
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:Maybe supporting Israel after years of apartheid and ethnic cleansing should be an unsafe position While the post reeks of STDH.txt they were calling out Jews and not zionists.
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Oct 25, 2023 16:18
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Groovelord Neato posted:I'm hearing that from hipsters at the local coffee shop too. BUUNNI posted:Anecdotally I've been hearing the same from my Palestinian friends and family, but instead of only college campuses it's everywhere in public. Judgy Fucker posted:What are the pro-genocide talking points against Israel that are being parroted? I haven't heard of crowds of people calling for the genocide of palestinians, meanwhile, we have rallies where the crowd are shouting 'gas the jews' over and over again: [https://twitter.com/GlobalNewsNow24/status/1711532472716902657
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Oct 25, 2023 16:21
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It's something that there is a general thread agreement that there isn't a realistic 1 state or 2 state solution. Tough place for Biden to be though.
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Oct 25, 2023 16:23
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HootTheOwl posted:While the post reeks of STDH.txt they were calling out Jews and not zionists. The post in question clearly says nothing of the sort. quote:The number of incidents where student groups are just parroting pro-genocide talking points against Israel is insane. The Likud party and Bibi are all openly zionist. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZbMf7vDU6g&t=293s Mister Fister posted:I haven't heard of crowds of people calling for the genocide of palestinians, meanwhile, we have rallies where the crowd are shouting 'gas the jews' over and over again: I have definitely heard crowds of zionists calling for Palestinian genocide.
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Oct 25, 2023 16:24
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Mister Fister posted:I haven't heard of crowds of people calling for the genocide of palestinians This is what every pro-Israel rally since the start of the bombing has been. You've seen your politicians support it by going to visit Israel in "solidarity" or by voting to give them more money. Do the people you know all live in Sydney by the handful of people doing that chant? I saw an assistant professor whining and crying about how unsafe he felt because of "pro-Hamas" rallies on his campus when there was nothing of the sort. This sort of person thinks "from the river to the sea Palestine shall be free" is "genocidal rhetoric".
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Oct 25, 2023 16:26
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Mister Fister posted:I haven't heard of crowds of people calling for the genocide of palestinians, meanwhile, we have rallies where the crowd are shouting 'gas the jews' over and over again: I haven't heard crowds calling for the genocide of Palestinians, that much is true. I have seen Israel committing genocide against Palestinians in real time, however. And as for the "gas the Jews" chant at one rally from two weeks ago, that is shameful and does the cause of Palestinian resistance (or supporting it, anyway) a great disservice.
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Oct 25, 2023 16:26
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Whether or not it has mass support, the genocide of Palestinians has been actually happening for a long time and Israel and its international supporters are currently working hard to accelerate it. Which is the reason for the protests.
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Oct 25, 2023 16:28
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BUUNNI posted:The post in question clearly says nothing of the sort. Yes Likud and Bibi are. But the sentence before that, which you omitted, didn't say Likud and Bibi doesn't feel safe. It said Jews. It is Jews who are feeling the pressure in that post.
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Oct 25, 2023 16:29
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Mister Fister posted:I haven't heard of crowds of people calling for the genocide of palestinians, meanwhile, we have rallies where the crowd are shouting 'gas the jews' over and over again: I mean yeah it's really easy not to hear or see things when you stop up your ears and close your eyes. https://twitter.com/Lowkey0nline/status/1711865833121521939 But hell you don't have to get out on the street to do it when the Israeli government is happy to call Palestinians human animals and even channel 4 was willing to have a sit down interview with a war criminal like Ezra Yachin. (e: an actual article on the Deir Yassin massacre this piece of poo poo participated in and still defends) TGLT fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 16:29
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kiminewt posted:Yes. Most of the Bedouin live in the Negev and nowadays most of them live in urban (recognised) cities and towns (around 60% from figures I could find) . The unrecognised ones are usually very small "villages", and not always occupied year round. I'm just trying to get a sense of the discrimination Bedouins might feel, like it is so clearly established for Palestinians. You said they were integrated in larger Israeli society. Like this Human Rights Watch article which states quote:Israel has demolished thousands of Negev Bedouin homes since the 1970s, and hundreds in 2007 alone. Authorities say that 45,000 existing Bedouin homes in approximately 39 “unrecognized” villages were built illegally and thus potential targets for demolition. Israeli officials contend that they are simply enforcing zoning and building codes. But Human Rights Watch found that officials systematically demolish Bedouin homes while often overlooking or retroactively legalizing unlawful construction by Jewish citizens. https://www.hrw.org/news/2008/03/30/israel-end-systematic-bias-against-bedouin Suggests that Bedouins are clearly discriminated against by Israel, especially since they apparently number only 170k (45k Bedouin homes are cataloged as being demolished in the report). Those I did see elsewhere the number being closer to 300k. Either way the large preponderance of Bedouins do apparently live in the Negev, and from my research a significant percentage of them live in these unrecognized villages, alot of times for generations. And following that, from an Amnesty International article quote:
Being evicted out of your generational home, and paying for settlers to move in is in fact a singular and terrible practice that does not in fact "exist in other parts of the world." It's singular in its cruelty.
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Oct 25, 2023 16:30
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daslog posted:It's something that there is a general thread agreement that there isn't a realistic 1 state or 2 state solution. Tough place for Biden to be though. There's a perfectly reasonable one state solution You relocate Israelis to the United States and create one Palestine. Then you never again displace millions of people to create a religious ethnostate. If Israel could exist as a state without oppressing and killing Arabs we would never have reached this point but I think it's clear to me at this point that Israel cannot handle statehood and needs to be dismantled Edit: I have seen some people in this thread try to hand wave away this behavior from israel as, essentially, "ethnic oppression exists in the world" which isn't an argument so much as you telling on yourself. We should want these practices to end, not try to normalize them. KillHour posted:Please don't move a bunch of right wing religious zealots here we have enough already Considering how many Israelis have dual citizenship in the United States, they're already a part of our political process and it wouldn't really move the needle at all Engorged Pedipalps fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 16:30
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:There's a perfectly reasonable one state solution Please don't move a bunch of right wing religious zealots here we have enough already
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Oct 25, 2023 16:33
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TGLT posted:Civilian casualties from war (or whatever we're calling the ongoing ethnic cleansing by Israel) are referred to as martyrs, This has been an annoying part of discourse elsewhere, explaining that "martyred" for muslims essentially means "they wont be forgotten/they will not have died for nothing" and not "this was a paid hamas operative seeking to make Jews look bad". Same with Allahu Ackbar.
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