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I don't think I would ever take that feat. Cleric has more impactful feats available and there are plenty of other ways to get your of combat healing. If I'm asked to spend a class feat just for out of combat healing it better be an incredibly strong one instead of kind of mid. How many situations do you really run into where the time pressure is so high that the 20 minutes or something this feat saves is significant but is also not that high because you can apparently still spend tens of minutes recovering after combat?
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Oct 25, 2023 04:31
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Andrast posted:Cleric has more impactful feats available
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Oct 25, 2023 05:14
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Mister Olympus posted:I think that characters should simply reset to full HP outside of combat if adventures aren't going to be written with time pressures or gauntlet fights as an explicit challenge, which I haven't really seen much of. Maybe one or two per book 
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Oct 25, 2023 05:27
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Evilgm posted:Do they though? Without looking at the 1-4 feat list particularly closely: Domain Initiate, Reach spell, Syncretism, Emblazon armament into the new Raise Symbol, Rapid Response, Channel Smite, Expanded Domain initiate and a ton of potential archetype feats Andrast fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 05:51
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I'm currently working on building a level 2 Thaumaturge and trying to decide what to use as the first implement. My basic concept for this character is that she's a princess from some small, minor kingdom who really wants to get out of her sheltered life and be an adventurer, and as such, picks hopefully-unlikely-to-be-missed bits and bobs from the the royal treasury and uses her education and the stories she's read about to become a Thaumaturge. So far I basically have: Human Ancestry (Versatile Heritage -> Toughness, Natural Ambition -> Diverse Lore) STR 16, DEX 12, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 18 Lv1 Class Feat: Scroll Thaumaturgy Lv1 First Implement: (up in the air - currently between the Amulet, Mirror, Regalia, and Weapon (whip, maybe?). Chalice is also on the table.) Lv2 Class Feat: Talisman Esoterica Lv2 Free Archetype: Sentinel Dedication (yay, heavy armor!) Lv2 Skill Feat: Bon Mot Unless I'm mistaken - with the weapon, if I successfully bon mot an enemy, and they try to retort, I can strike them as a reaction since the retort requires them to Concentrate, yeah? Seems like it could be a pretty good combination. The other implements seem really good as well, though, and I'm not, like.... extremely locked in on the whip. I'm open to suggestions for the build.
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Oct 25, 2023 06:09
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Andrast posted:I don't think I would ever take that feat. Cleric has more impactful feats available and there are plenty of other ways to get your of combat healing. absolutely. lay on hands is kind of the golden standard here, because it patches up a single person by a lot, on the same timer as ward medic and such, and can still be used in combat, and is 100% consistent numerically. that should be the standard for this type of thing
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Oct 25, 2023 06:17
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I find the timing awkward for the new healing feat. Is it 11 minutes to gain the healing or does the 10 minutes start when you begin prayer? If the latter, what are you supposed to do with the next 9 minutes when most exploration activities take 10 minutes? If the former, suddenly the cleric isn't synchronized with the rest of the party's exploration activities, which sounds annoying to track. Is it an action you can perform while regaining focus points? At least it is quite bad so I doubt it'll ever come up.
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Oct 25, 2023 06:39
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You just follow it with a 10 minute action and the rest of the party spend the extra 1 minute waiting- time isn't actually broken into discrete 10 minute segments...
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Oct 25, 2023 14:50
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ZZT the Fifth posted:I'm currently working on building a level 2 Thaumaturge and trying to decide what to use as the first implement. My basic concept for this character is that she's a princess from some small, minor kingdom who really wants to get out of her sheltered life and be an adventurer, and as such, picks hopefully-unlikely-to-be-missed bits and bobs from the the royal treasury and uses her education and the stories she's read about to become a Thaumaturge. Regalia or Weapon are probably the right calls here. Mirror is incredible but mainly comes into its own at level 5. Amulet makes you more of a defender, but that doesn’t seem to be how you’re looking to play. Chalice is underwhelming in my experience. Weapon is basically Better (sometimes. Sometimes worse) AoO. If you want to show up the fighter, it’s the right call. Regalia is incredible if your party doesn’t have a bard - it’s going to make everyone better - and it’s just so extremely on theme for the character you’re building that I’d have a hard time passing it up personally.
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Oct 25, 2023 15:08
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ZZT the Fifth posted:I'm currently working on building a level 2 Thaumaturge and trying to decide what to use as the first implement. My basic concept for this character is that she's a princess from some small, minor kingdom who really wants to get out of her sheltered life and be an adventurer, and as such, picks hopefully-unlikely-to-be-missed bits and bobs from the the royal treasury and uses her education and the stories she's read about to become a Thaumaturge. One suggestion I'd make is consider Champion archetype as opposed to Sentinel; you have the Charisma for it and you still get the heavy armor. And spending free archetype feats to get Lay on Hands and Champion's Reaction is superb.
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Oct 25, 2023 16:51
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Chevy Slyme posted:Regalia or Weapon are probably the right calls here. Mirror is incredible but mainly comes into its own at level 5. Amulet makes you more of a defender, but that doesn’t seem to be how you’re looking to play. Chalice is underwhelming in my experience. I think I might start with the Weapon, and pick Regalia up at level 5... or should I do it the other way around? Argh, choices. e: Magil Zeal posted:One suggestion I'd make is consider Champion archetype as opposed to Sentinel; you have the Charisma for it and you still get the heavy armor. And spending free archetype feats to get Lay on Hands and Champion's Reaction is superb. Does this mean I have to follow edicts and anathema? e again: also, it was pointed out that Champion dedication would have my heavy armor proficiency fall off at higher levels - it gets trained at 2 and expert at 14, and that's it. ZZT the Fifth fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 16:51
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ZZT the Fifth posted:I think I might start with the Weapon, and pick Regalia up at level 5... or should I do it the other way around? Argh, choices. Weapon at level 1 is probably more optimal. Weapon's main ability is very frontloaded in that the pseudo-aoo is very good immediately while Regalia only starts to really shine with the the adept level bonus. Weapon first, Regalia second at level 5 and then increasing regalia to adept at level 7 is a solid plan. Since we are also talking archetypes, Marshal is basically tailor made for a Regalia-using Thaumaturge.
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Oct 25, 2023 17:00
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I could use a bit of build advice. I'm respecing my character from swashbuckler to monk, with a focus on tripping and grappling to keep things interesting. Ideally, I'd have Str 18 and Dex 16, but my background (which I'm not changing since it's a big part of his backstory) doesn't give bonuses to both. Am I better going Str 18/Dex 14, or putting a 16 in both?
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Oct 25, 2023 17:07
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5-Headed Snake God posted:I could use a bit of build advice. I'm respecing my character from swashbuckler to monk, with a focus on tripping and grappling to keep things interesting. Ideally, I'd have Str 18 and Dex 16, but my background (which I'm not changing since it's a big part of his backstory) doesn't give bonuses to both. Am I better going Str 18/Dex 14, or putting a 16 in both? Max out your attack stat when possible. That's always the more optimal route.
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Oct 25, 2023 17:11
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ZZT the Fifth posted:e: You do "have" to; I don't know how closely that would match your character concept. Mechanically it's a bit vague what happens if you violate them as an archetype, presumably it's the same as the base Champion, which is just loss of focus points and Divine Ally (you could take Champion's Resiliency instead of Lay on Hands if you were concerned about a violation). So you keep heavy armor. With that said I don't know many GMs that are overly harsh on edicts and anathema, they're more for flavor than trying to gotcha a player. ZZT the Fifth posted:e again: also, it was pointed out that Champion dedication would have my heavy armor proficiency fall off at higher levels - it gets trained at 2 and expert at 14, and that's it. Unless I'm mistaken, that's true for Sentinel as well though? Sentinel would grant expert 1 level earlier and without an extra feat, but it doesn't give you master. Magil Zeal fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 17:13
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Evilgm posted:You just follow it with a 10 minute action and the rest of the party spend the extra 1 minute waiting- time isn't actually broken into discrete 10 minute segments... Time is broken up into 10 minutes segments because most activities take 10 minutes (regaining focus, treat injury, repairs, identifying magic items, wizard spell substitution. Being able to ask players what they are doing in 10 minute chunks is a good feature. It makes tracking time significantly easier because you can ask everyone what they are doing for the next 10 minutes. Throwing an 11 minute activity into the mix that you most likely need to use multiple times completely breaks a system that otherwise made tracking really easy. Worse still, it is breaking the 10 minute increments for out of combat recovery for what, exactly? What benefit are we gaining from making this an 11 minute activity? Would it have been broken if it took 10 minutes? You are wrong, and probably never used the rules as written . . . KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 17:14
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Magil Zeal posted:You do "have" to; I don't know how closely that would match your character concept. Mechanically it's a bit vague what happens if you violate them as an archetype, presumably it's the same as the base Champion, which is just loss of focus points and Divine Ally (you could take Champion's Resiliency instead of Lay on Hands if you were concerned about a violation). So you keep heavy armor. With that said I don't know many GMs that are overly harsh on edicts and anathema, they're more for flavor than trying to gotcha a player. Hmm. Would my thaum be better staying in medium armor and taking advantage of the archetype's specific features instead? That leaves me with Champion still, and I've also been suggested Marshal as an archetype.
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Oct 25, 2023 17:21
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ZZT the Fifth posted:Hmm. Would my thaum be better staying in medium armor and taking advantage of the archetype's specific features instead? That leaves me with Champion still, and I've also been suggested Marshal as an archetype. While it is true that Regalia Thaumaturges are good at marshal stuff, I don't agree that Marshal adds much to them. You are already extremely action starved and are already providing the rarer status bonus from the intimidation aura. I'd rather take rogue for sneak attack and skill mastery if you wanted to maximize social skills. I've had two players try Marshal. They both retrained out of it. The Thaumaturge hasn't considered it, but he also doesn't have any superfluous actions. He picked up psychic multiclass for the single action warp step focus spell to help with positioning. Edit: Sentinel gets some really great defensive feats if you are worried about being tanky. KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 17:29
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KPC_Mammon posted:While it is true that Regalia Thaumaturges are good at marshal stuff, I don't agree that Marshal adds much to them. You are already extremely action starved and are already providing the rarer status bonus from the intimidation aura. I'd rather take rogue for sneak attack and skill mastery if you wanted to maximize social skills. That still leaves me with Champion for the reaction and Lay On Hands, which would be excellent support.
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Oct 25, 2023 17:32
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champion is pretty fantastic for thaum imo because you're pretty much picking up 'amulet, but better' for two feats
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Oct 25, 2023 17:34
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ZZT the Fifth posted:Hmm. Would my thaum be better staying in medium armor and taking advantage of the archetype's specific features instead? That leaves me with Champion still, and I've also been suggested Marshal as an archetype. Keep in mind that Armor Mastery isn't until level 19, that's pretty late in the game. Marshal looks great on paper but I can't speak to play experience; it's true that Thaumaturge is already action-hungry so overloading it with more actions to spend on things like activating auras may not work well in play. I will say that Champion's Reaction can cover more area with the Mirror Implement, which is a neat bit of synergy.
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Oct 25, 2023 17:44
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I wouldn't make a Thaumaturge without Diverse Lore. It changes what is otherwise an action tax to turn on your damage to a useful skill for the entire party. Since you took it, you probably can't go too wrong! Edit: Intimidating Glare is really important, depending on the campaign. KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 17:46
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KPC_Mammon posted:While it is true that Regalia Thaumaturges are good at marshal stuff, I don't agree that Marshal adds much to them. You are already extremely action starved and are already providing the rarer status bonus from the intimidation aura. I'd rather take rogue for sneak attack and skill mastery if you wanted to maximize social skills. I don't using up a single action at the start of the combat is that big of a deal since providing an attack bonus and damage bonus is pretty big. Marshal is better for non-weapon thaums though because you can get an AOO out of it. Champs, Sentinel, Marshal, etc. are all very good. I don't think you can really go wrong with anything suggested here.
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Oct 25, 2023 17:54
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KPC_Mammon posted:Time is broken up into 10 minutes segments because most activities take 10 minutes (regaining focus, treat injury, repairs, identifying magic items, wizard spell substitution. I'm not wrong, I'm just not an unthinking moron. Most activities do take 10 minutes. But the game doesn't break if the characters take an extra minute, and that's possible because of how RPGs work- people can talk and agree something, and this something doesn't even break the rules as written, it's just applying common loving sense to a minor potential issue. But don't worry buddy, some day maybe you too will develop the ability to think through complicated concepts like "we'll say we spend one more minute to get the healing".
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Oct 25, 2023 18:30
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do you want to take a breath there bud
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Oct 25, 2023 18:35
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KPC_Mammon posted:Time is broken up into 10 minutes segments because most activities take 10 minutes (regaining focus, treat injury, repairs, identifying magic items, wizard spell substitution. https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=469 quote:While encounters use rounds for combat, exploration is more free form. The GM determines the flow of time, as you could be traveling by horseback across craggy highlands, negotiating with merchants, or delving in a dungeon in search of danger and treasure. Exploration lacks the immediate danger of encounter mode, but it offers its own challenges. ???
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Oct 25, 2023 19:02
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It doesn’t even look like the praying thing takes 11 minutes anyway? You just have to pray continuously for 1 minute then the emanation lasts another 9. Players that stay there for the full 10 (aka they prayed with you) get the benefit. It’s not a spell it’s a 10 minute group prayer.
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Oct 25, 2023 19:17
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appropriatemetaphor posted:It doesn’t even look like the praying thing takes 11 minutes anyway? The wording is very unclear on whether it starts immediately or after the minute of chanting. 10 min total would make more sense since that's how long most of these abilities take though.
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Oct 25, 2023 19:55
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5-Headed Snake God posted:I could use a bit of build advice. I'm respecing my character from swashbuckler to monk, with a focus on tripping and grappling to keep things interesting. Ideally, I'd have Str 18 and Dex 16, but my background (which I'm not changing since it's a big part of his backstory) doesn't give bonuses to both. Am I better going Str 18/Dex 14, or putting a 16 in both? I'm going to say 16 in both. It's more value overall for you, and makes it less likely you'll die early. Yes, max out your attack stat where possible, but 16 only puts you behind by 1 from levels 1-4, 10-14, and 20. Rest of the time you're on par, and the extra Dex will save you more often.
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Oct 25, 2023 20:56
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Evilgm posted:I'm not wrong, I'm just not an unthinking moron. Most activities do take 10 minutes. But the game doesn't break if the characters take an extra minute, and that's possible because of how RPGs work- people can talk and agree something, and this something doesn't even break the rules as written, it's just applying common loving sense to a minor potential issue. But don't worry buddy, some day maybe you too will develop the ability to think through complicated concepts like "we'll say we spend one more minute to get the healing". I'm doubtful that what you claim is true. Adding 11 minute increments to a system that previously used 10 minutes or less for everything increases logistical complexity for questionable benefit. Do you think this feat would be overpowered otherwise? I've already read plenty of complaints online about tracking time outside of combat being too fiddly. My response was always that it is actually super easy for my group specifically because you can break it into 10 minute "rounds". This makes a common problem people have with the system worse. For a nearly negligible amount of hp. Maybe if you weren't an unthinking moron you'd see that. edit: The rules as written heavily incentivize breaking things down into 10minute chunks. I'm sorry if you are more interested in dunking on someone for not being able to count (lol, you got me, I'm somehow able to play pf2e without any mathematical ability) instead of how the game plays in person. I'm playing AV with strict out of combat timekeeping. I have two or three houserules but otherwise follow everything as written. This change would be a pain in the rear end. KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 21:59
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Cyouni posted:I'm going to say 16 in both. It's more value overall for you, and makes it less likely you'll die early. The emphasis on athletics skills is the main reason I would disagree with this post - that makes the 18 Str much more important overall. I would actually strongly contemplate dumping Dex and going mountain stance instead.
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Oct 25, 2023 22:05
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appropriatemetaphor posted:It doesn’t even look like the praying thing takes 11 minutes anyway? This is kind of how I read it too. The "subtle shadow of your deity's realm" arrives when the cleric starts the prayer and it takes a minute. After the minute the cleric could do other exploration activities based on their proficiencies while the ground stays consecrated for 9 minutes longer and everyone must remain in it to get the benefit. The quick repair and rapid affixture from crafting are ones I can think of off the top of my head.
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Oct 25, 2023 22:14
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Andrast posted:I don't using up a single action at the start of the combat is that big of a deal since providing an attack bonus and damage bonus is pretty big. Marshal is better for non-weapon thaums though because you can get an AOO out of it. The stance is really good but since you are likely exploiting vulnerability and striking round 1 you are left without a stride if you go that route. I'd be tempted to try it with a 1-handed ranged weapon, but I think certain party compositions (like an air kineticist or someone with haste or loose time's arrow) could make the aura extremely good. The skill increase and access to regular AOO if you aren't a weapon Thaumaturge are both really great though. Maybe even worth considering if you aren't playing with free multiclass feats.
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Oct 25, 2023 22:16
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ZZT the Fifth posted:
I don't know if it works like this, but I hope you're right because that's hilarious. "You're ugly!" "No you're-"*SMACK* "Shut up, ugly!"
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Oct 25, 2023 22:17
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boxen posted:I don't know if it works like this, but I hope you're right because that's hilarious. It works due to the concentrate tag. Two of my PCs really like to use this interaction. I think the last NPC who thought "might as well get rid of bon mot from the sorcerer instead of making a -10 MAP strike" instantly died from a critical hit.
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Oct 25, 2023 22:21
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KPC_Mammon posted:I find the timing awkward for the new healing feat. Is it 11 minutes to gain the healing or does the 10 minutes start when you begin prayer? If the latter, what are you supposed to do with the next 9 minutes when most exploration activities take 10 minutes? If the former, suddenly the cleric isn't synchronized with the rest of the party's exploration activities, which sounds annoying to track. Is it an action you can perform while regaining focus points? The one minute is part of the ten minutes (just like the immunity to treat wounds includes the ten minutes it takes). Think of it like a ten minute ritual of sorts that requires a full minute of intense prayer, and nine minutes of religious concentration on the part of the cleric. The rest of these party can do whatever they want in those ten minutes, so long as they're in the area of effect. E: Actually maybe they can do sub-10 activities, as mentioned. 3 Action Economist fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 22:22
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boxen posted:I don't know if it works like this, but I hope you're right because that's hilarious. Weapon implement's reaction says Concentrate actions trigger it, and Bon Mot says "The target can end the effect early with a retort to your Bon Mot. This can either be a single action that has the concentrate trait or an appropriate skill action to frame their retort", so unless there's something I'm missing, it 100% works like that (and sounds loving hilarious).
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Oct 25, 2023 22:23
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Kyrosiris posted:Weapon implement's reaction says Concentrate actions trigger it, and Bon Mot says "The target can end the effect early with a retort to your Bon Mot. This can either be a single action that has the concentrate trait or an appropriate skill action to frame their retort", so unless there's something I'm missing, it 100% works like that (and sounds loving hilarious). Yeah, I'd never read the thaumaturge stuff, but yeah the Weapon implements get a better attack of opportunity that lets you smack them off a concentrate action, and not just move or manipulate. Neat!
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Oct 25, 2023 23:27
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Seems like the "1 minute of doing a prayer" is there so you can't use it in combat. Or I guess you could but that's a lot of rounds of praying.
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Oct 25, 2023 23:49
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Hang on, 1 minute out of combat actions aren't new, Quick Repair and Rapid Affix for two examples. It's pretty straightforward, the Cleric prays for a minute, then drops the healing AoE and then everyone sits in a circle doing a 10 minute activity. The Cleric is likely Treat Wounds'ing people in any case. It's a grand feat for a healing focused Cleric and it being an 11 minute interval or a 10 minute one doesn't hugely matter, its mostly increments of 10 minutes to track some buff durations and when hour long cooldowns come back.
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Oct 25, 2023 23:56
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