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is this good? https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1717232829766009086
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Oct 25, 2023 18:53
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Calling Palestinians the people of darkness is of course horribly racist and disgusting, but Netanyahu knows he can say and do whatever he wants and nothing will happen to him or Israel. They are getting away with this consequence free and the language of the government getting more and more extreme each day, shows that. All we can really do at this point is hope their ground force into Gaza fails.
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Oct 25, 2023 18:55
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I said come in! posted:They are getting away with this consequence free I'm not so sure of that. We shall see.
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Oct 25, 2023 18:56
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 18:57
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:The usage of the word martyr is appeasement to religion. Appeasing religious extremists is why we’re in this mess. It’s a bad move for the press. i mean this with all sincerity and honesty: i hope you one day find peace
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Oct 25, 2023 19:00
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:I take flack for arguing that the doctors should tell people to evacuate a hospital the IDF has repeatedly said they are going to bomb otherwise they’re effectively supporting Hamas. Calling them martyred instead of massacred is effectively proving that point correct. This is the least offensive thing about your POV, but I thiink it'# important to note that the doctors did, in fact, tell people to leave time and again. This was well established in the early coverage. But many couldn't, and they didn't abandon their critical-care patients. Many others didn't, or left and then returned, as it became clear that the rest of Gaza was no safer. The proper metaphor for those doctors is not cowards using human shields, but captains bravely choosing not to abandon ship.
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Oct 25, 2023 19:07
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:The usage of the word martyr is appeasement to religion. Appeasing religious extremists is why we’re in this mess. It’s a bad move for the press. You still tacking to this argument when we had a bonfire medical professional chime in to state the impossibility of moving prematurely born babies and wounded immobile elderly people without alot of dead babies and old people reveals a deranged logical process or just a callous indifference to Palesrtinian death because they are Palestinian. kiminewt posted:You don't have to be white to be a racist or a supermacist. It's just a different thing and trying to fit all problems into America shaped holes is reductive. The important point is that it is supremacy. And supremacist movements tend to want to share commonalities and the same signifiers between each other.
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Oct 25, 2023 19:08
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Judgy Fucker posted:I'm not so sure of that. We shall see. Who's going to hold them accountable?
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Oct 25, 2023 19:08
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Raenir Salazar posted:This proposal is no more modest or sensible than eating the Irish. Ethnic cleansing does not justify ethnic cleansing in return. The goal should be to get Israel to stop and to participate in good faith the peace process and no further. The people living there have just as much right to live there in Israel within their internationally recognized borders as Palestinians do to live in their recognized borders. Two wrongs don't make a right, increasing misery and suffering doesn't end the current suffering, and this just feeds Israeli narratives of "they really do want to drive us all into the sea!" Which you apparently literally want to do by force. I get the comparison you're making and I don't see how it's valid. A modest proposal is supposed to be decrying the cruelty and lack of empathy colonizers had towards a colonized state and the actual solution the author wanted was for his people to stop oppressing Ireland. Also, Irish claims to Ireland predate the creation of the United Kingdom or even England. The Israeli historical claim to Israel is mythological in nature and the modern history of Israel dates back to 1948 During the time Israel has held their land they have bent over backwards to prove that they cannot hold the territory or act as a legitimate and responsible nation state. We have forced change in regimes that have done less. mannerup posted:Mizrahi make up the majority of Israeli Jews compared to Ashkenazi/Sephardic, although your point on Ethiopian Jews being discriminated against is correct. Per Israel's own data ashkenazi are fully half (50%) of the Jewish population of Israel and the dominant ethnic group in the country Engorged Pedipalps fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 19:11
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I see Mr. Netanyahu was reading the thread and wanted to correct everyone who was saying Israel is not a racist settler state.
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Oct 25, 2023 19:11
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kolby posted:Who's going to hold them accountable? I didn't say anything about accountability. Israel will face consequences for their actions. They already have.
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Oct 25, 2023 19:13
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Main Paineframe posted:The problem is that Depo-Provera is a temporary contraceptive. It lasts three months before they have to get a new shot. Somebody in the transit camps was putting them on Depo-Provera, sometimes through pressure and sometimes through outright deception, and that's definitely cause for serious concern. This was my read on that scandal as well. It makes some logical sense to ask, via informed consent, women in transit camps to consider contraception until they are settled in their new home. There were language barriers, culture barriers, etc. that were not properly addressed. Then the medication just keeps getting renewed forever. This happens in America all the time with low medical literacy patients and patients that are not primarily English speaking, especially in cultures where doctors are viewed as authority or patriarchy. We've come a long way since 40+ years ago, but we still struggle with this.
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Oct 25, 2023 19:16
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Two state solution can work, if both states can be given self determination with moderating leadership. It’s two states because to start this solution, each state needs to not fear immediate takeover from the other ethnicity because their own Hitler takes over. There’s no modernization without secularism. Your assessment of the political reality is depressingly accurate, which makes this argument stand out all the more. Giving Palestine statehood would not meaningfully improve its ability to threaten Israel and would alleviate a lot of the grievances that fuel Palestinian attacks. It's not a magic fix, in large part because people won't forget about what's happening right now and not everyone is going to be able to forgive it, but to the extent that Israel has legitimate security concerns a two-state solution would be a substantial improvement. Saying that Israel can't progress towards a two-state solution until its security needs are met is putting the cart before the horse; the lack of justice for Palestinians is the source of a significant portion of Israel's security problems. So yes, the entrenched political apparatus in Israel and the US is dedicated to preserving the status quo to maintain its grip on power. But it does this in spite of, not because of, Israel's security interests. Mid-Life Crisis posted:Blindly supporting Palestine is justifying just an alternative ethnocentric take though, which is not helping win any moderates. People lately have been taking the excite the extremes and make everything black and white political discourse as a way to excite voters to get them to show up the polls and applying the concept to how to actually change the majority viewpoints within a country. And unless that changes, neocons are going to continue to stay in charge. I agree that blindly supporting Palestine is the wrong approach, which is why I support a two-state solution instead.
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Oct 25, 2023 19:22
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Judgy Fucker posted:I didn't say anything about accountability. Israel will face consequences for their actions. They already have. We should have a discussion about it here in this discussion forum. Facing consequences implies that someone is going to hold them accountable. In what way do you think that will happen going forward?
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Oct 25, 2023 19:25
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kolby posted:We should have a discussion about it here in this discussion forum. Hamas is giving it a shot but boy do people hate how they're doing it
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Oct 25, 2023 19:29
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kolby posted:Facing consequences implies that someone is going to hold them accountable. No it doesn't. If I rear-end someone and hurt myself in the accident, but no police report is filed, I suffered consequences from my actions without "being held accountable." But a short list of consequences that have already happened:
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Oct 25, 2023 19:34
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I'd say anyone killed by an oppressive regime fits the colloquial definition of a martyr, because they have been put in a situation where simply being alive is an act of resistance.punishedkissinger posted:Israel just murdered the entire family of Al Jazeera's Bureau chief in Gaza, just hours after the US reached out to the outlet asking them to tone down their coverage of the conflict. Do you have the story on the US asking Al Jazeera to tone it down? All I can find is that Blinken asked Qatar to lean on them two weeks ago. Which doesn't make this any less deplorable, but if it happened immediately after al-Dahdouh had rebuffed an American request for censorship, that marks it as a clearly deliberate act instead of a plausibly deniable deliberate act. Main Paineframe posted:The problem is that Depo-Provera is a temporary contraceptive. [...] Those are all fair points. The sticking point for me is the part where the Israeli Ministry of Health refused any accountability, declared that it would investigate itself, and, given the lack of news on the matter as far as I can find, concluded that no one was at fault. Which I suppose is not proof of a deliberate policy, but I struggle to read it as anything less than a tacit endorsement.
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Oct 25, 2023 19:36
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kolby posted:We should have a discussion about it here in this discussion forum. The continued delay of the invasion makes it pretty clear they know this won't go well for them.
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Oct 25, 2023 19:38
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kiminewt posted:You don't have to be white to be a racist or a supermacist. It's just a different thing and trying to fit all problems into America shaped holes is reductive. There's also significant discrimination against non-white Jews in Israel. While Mizrahi Jews make up a substantial portion of the population, that hasn't stopped them from facing discrimination at the hands of the white Ashkenazi Jews who dominated Israel's elite classes. While the discrimination has waned over time, there's still significant disparities and the occasional case of open explicit segregation. It's even worse for later Jewish immigrants from places farther afield like India and Ethiopia. And of course it gets worse and worse for black non-Jews, with African refugees facing down race riots and even the occasional lynching.
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Oct 25, 2023 19:39
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Judgy Fucker posted:[*]Increased violence in the West Bank I'd argue this is actually more of a consequence for West Bank Palestinians based on the reports I've seen
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Oct 25, 2023 19:41
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:I get the comparison you're making and I don't see how it's valid. A modest proposal is supposed to be decrying the cruelty and lack of empathy colonizers had towards a colonized state and the actual solution the author wanted was for his people to stop oppressing Ireland. Also, Irish claims to Ireland predate the creation of the United Kingdom or even England. The Israeli historical claim to Israel is mythological in nature and the modern history of Israel dates back to 1948 What? The Jewish historical ties to the land is absolutely not mythological. But is 100% is supported within the factual and very real historical record. This isn't even a BC thing, and Jews still lived in the area the entire time and the 500,000 Jews living in the region in 1948 didn't sprout from the ground overnight, they've lived there for years regardless whether you approve of them legally emigrating there before hand. Also you're entirely overthinking the reference to a modest proposal and tying yourself into knots justifying ethnic cleansing and collective punishment of Israelis for the crimes of their government that wasn't even elected by a majority of its people. The relative credibility of the claims of the Irish relative to Israel aren't relevant, what's relevant is you are proposing a proposal just as monstrous as the crimes you're currently condemning, and this is obviously contradictory and hypocritical. Making this about "well actually" the Irish circumstances I think shows you know your position is ultimately unjustifiable and indefensible. I thought a people weren't their state? Why should the people collectively be punished? I thought the problem was the government but you're actually saying every Israeli in Israel is at fault? Can you clarify your position? Is this what you believe and if not how are you justifying this?
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Oct 25, 2023 19:45
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Main Paineframe posted:There's also significant discrimination against non-white Jews in Israel. While Mizrahi Jews make up a substantial portion of the population, that hasn't stopped them from facing discrimination at the hands of the white Ashkenazi Jews who dominated Israel's elite classes. While the discrimination has waned over time, there's still significant disparities and the occasional case of open explicit segregation. It's even worse for later Jewish immigrants from places farther afield like India and Ethiopia. Can you provide citation for your lynching comment? I am aware of the disgusting attempts to sterilize Ethiopian Jews but can't find anything about outright mob killings of non-Jewish Africans. This is the closest I can find via Al-Jazeera. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/4/why-did-eritrean-factions-fight-in-the-streets-of-israel
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Oct 25, 2023 19:49
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The prophecy of Isaiah, the one where he says the Messiah will come back? It’s insane that the US is supporting this religious zealot fascist and aiding him on his ethnic cleansing
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Oct 25, 2023 19:50
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VitalSigns posted:This is not correct. The word martyr is someone who is killed for their beliefs or their cause, which often are, but don't have to be religious. Everyone who dies in Palestine is being labeled a martyr right now due to pressure via the press. I understand you’re trying to go Oxford dictionary on me and technical definition you are correct, but that’s not what’s going on in the press. They use other terms historically and are now appeasing to a religious requested alternative because the confusion is the intent. Mid-Life Crisis fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 19:59
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theCalamity posted:The prophecy of Isaiah, the one where he says the Messiah will come back? Google searching it, I don't see how the prophecy of Isaiah is relevant here, the only way it makes sense is if Netanyahu is quietly suggesting that he is a prophet.
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Oct 25, 2023 20:00
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Raenir Salazar posted:I thought a people weren't their state? Why should the people collectively be punished? I thought the problem was the government but you're actually saying every Israeli in Israel is at fault? Can you clarify your position? Is this what you believe and if not how are you justifying this? Who are the people of Israel? Within the area the current state of Israel claims as its own there is about an equal number of Palestinians and Israel living. Break that down further by the fate of Druze, Bedouin, and other disfavored groups in the current official Israeli mileui this thread has gone over at length for the last few pages, and the Israeli elite/settler class is a distinct minority trying to maintain a precarious supremacist hold over the majority of the population. Changing the parameters and current supremacist framework held there would not in fact be hurting "the people" of Israel. It would be helping the majority.
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Oct 25, 2023 20:00
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:Also, Irish claims to Ireland predate the creation of the United Kingdom or even England. The Israeli historical claim to Israel is mythological in nature and the modern history of Israel dates back to 1948 Why does this matter? If there had been English people in Ireland for centuries before there were Irish people, it would not at all change the injustice of the English exploitation of Ireland. It's very right-wing, and just plain dumb, to think in terms of national claims on land, and how long each nation has been where, as if we just have to figure out which ethnic-cultural groups belong on which land and then we'll know what to do. And it lends itself naturally to the insane idea of moving people from the wrong nation off the land because you've decided which nation really belongs there and which one is an interloper: Engorged Pedipalps posted:You relocate Israelis to the United States and create one Palestine. This is a proposal for ethnic cleansing mixed with the "one more time and then never again" mantra of a guilty junkie. -pedantry below- theCalamity posted:The prophecy of Isaiah, the one where he says the Messiah will come back? Neither Isaiah nor Netanyahu would think of the Messiah as "coming back." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 20:02
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Raenir Salazar posted:What? The Jewish historical ties to the land is absolutely not mythological. But is 100% is supported within the factual and very real historical record. This isn't even a BC thing, and Jews still lived in the area the entire time and the 500,000 Jews living in the region in 1948 didn't sprout from the ground overnight, they've lived there for years regardless whether you approve of them legally emigrating there before hand. No no he's got a point. If we do enough of the good ethnic cleansing that'll counter out the bad ethnic cleansing.
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Oct 25, 2023 20:03
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Can you provide citation for your lynching comment? I am aware of the disgusting attempts to sterilize Ethiopian Jews but can't find anything about outright mob killings of non-Jewish Africans. This is the closest I can find via Al-Jazeera. The big example that springs to mind is Haftom Zarhum, who was lynched for the crime of being black while near the scene of a shooting. That's only one example, but the really grisly part is that while two of his attackers took a plea deal, the ones that went to trial were acquitted of all charges, on the argument that they genuinely thought he was a terrorist.
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Oct 25, 2023 20:06
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Everyone who dies in Palestine is being labeled a martyr right now due to pressure via the press. I understand you’re trying to go Oxford dictionary on me and technical definition you are correct, but that’s not what’s going on in the press. They use other terms historically and are now appeasing to a religious requested alternative because the confusion is the intent. Who is applying the pressure, and by what power do you think they are able to do so? Would like to avoid conspiritorial thinking, especially with the long historical record of claims that “jews control the media” and make sure we’re not just doubling back to decide some other group controls the media. Can you explain how you think this works, and why people killed by an occupying state should or should not be classified as martyrs?
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Oct 25, 2023 20:08
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NovemberMike posted:No no he's got a point. If we do enough of the good ethnic cleansing that'll counter out the bad ethnic cleansing. Isn't this literally what y'all are arguing in maintaining the israeli apartheid state? I don't see how they continue to exist as a state without continuing their pattern of behavior. You either relocate the people who already largely have somewhere to go, or you continue to let Israel execute every single gazan man woman and child before they move on to the west bank and wash that place with blood too If you have a better proposal I'd like to hear it. The Israeli state has expressed, openly, that they have no desire to make peace or end the mass indiscriminate murder of people who, by state policy, israel does not view as human beings Engorged Pedipalps fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 20:10
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Shageletic posted:Who are the people of Israel? Within the area the current state of Israel claims as its own there is about an equal number of Palestinians and Israel living. Break that down further by the fate of Druze, Bedouin, and other disfavored groups in the current official Israeli mileui this thread has gone over at length for the last few pages, and the Israeli elite/settler class is a distinct minority trying to maintain a precarious supremacist hold over the majority of the population. Changing the parameters and current supremacist framework held there would not in fact be hurting "the people" of Israel. It would be helping the majority. It's hard to be sure but either you seem to be justifying ethnically cleansing millions of people which is still a large number of people even just limiting ourselves to the green line, or you're assuming pedipalps made a very different argument then the one they have in fact literally presented as of me writing this post of moving everyone from Israel to the US. Forcible moving any number of people for reasons of collective punishment is wrong, can you clarify your position, how many people would this be? Do you think this is just about the Israeli settlers in the west Bank or does this also include the millions within the internationally recognized Green line?
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Oct 25, 2023 20:12
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Can you provide citation for your lynching comment? I am aware of the disgusting attempts to sterilize Ethiopian Jews but can't find anything about outright mob killings of non-Jewish Africans. This is the closest I can find via Al-Jazeera. Here's an example of race riots: https://www.npr.org/2012/05/24/153634901/violent-riots-target-african-nationals-living-in-israel quote:A demonstration held Wednesday night in Tel Aviv in favor of deporting Africans in Israel turned into a frenzied mob. Twelve people were arrested for committing acts of violence and vandalism against Africans. Israel has tens of thousands of African nationals from Darfur and Eritrea. Over the last month, reports have filled the Israeli papers of suspicions that the Africans are responsible for a string of violent crimes, and rapes, though actual evidence only incriminates them in a handful of circumstances. As for lynching, I'll never forget the case of Haftom Zarhum, who was fleeing a terrorist attack when a security guard decided for some reason that he was also a terrorist and shot him on the spot, incapacitating him. Then an angry mob descended on him and beat him to death, with several people caught on video doing poo poo like kicking him in the head and slamming him with a nearby bench. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/19/hunt-for-israelis-who-killed-eritrean-man-falsely-implicated-in-bus-attack quote:Israeli police are hunting members of a group of Israelis who killed an Eritrean migrant after mistakenly identifying him as a terrorist involved in an attack at a bus station.
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Oct 25, 2023 20:13
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:I take flack for arguing that the doctors should tell people to evacuate a hospital the IDF has repeatedly said they are going to bomb otherwise they’re effectively supporting Hamas. If I somehow got away with just a 6er in the MARTIAL LAW thread for that post (with a rap sheet quote that says I was getting queued up for a much longer punishment), I would not then bring it up again a day later.
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Oct 25, 2023 20:14
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:You either relocate the people who already largely have somewhere to go, or you continue to let Israel execute every single gazan man woman and child before they move on to the west bank and wash that place with blood too Any state or coalition of states with the wherewithal to forcibly expel every Israeli (or just every Jewish Israeli) from the land, that coalition also has the wherewithal to enforce the creation of a normal liberal democracy in which everyone can live with equal rights regardless of religion or ethnicity. Forcibly relocating every one of the millions of Israelis - I imagine you mean just the Jews, because forcibly relocating Palestinian citizens of Israel to the US would be a second Nakba - that's ethnic cleansing. The idea that they "already largely have somewhere to go" doesn't change that, and it's ridiculously incorrect (the vast majority of Israelis don't have any secondary citizenship)
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Oct 25, 2023 20:15
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I said come in! posted:Google searching it, I don't see how the prophecy of Isaiah is relevant here, the only way it makes sense is if Netanyahu is quietly suggesting that he is a prophet. The book of Isaiah was all random prophecies. Without something more specific who knows.
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Oct 25, 2023 20:17
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Main Paineframe posted:Here's an example of race riots: The Israeli's can't even get along with each other, not at all looking forward to seeing what happens when the Palestinians are no longer a group they consider a threat. This country is going to eat itself alive. ummel posted:The book of Isaiah was all random prophecies. Without something more specific who knows. Referencing old testament stuff is some scary poo poo since that part of the Bible is kinda exclusively about justifying genocide and mass murder. I said come in! fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 20:17
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 20:21
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Any state or coalition of states with the wherewithal to forcibly expel every Israeli (or just every Jewish Israeli) from the land, that coalition also has the wherewithal to enforce the creation of a normal liberal democracy in which everyone can live with equal rights regardless of religion or ethnicity. I just don't see how you can argue that removing a bloodthirsty genocidal power from the people they are genociding is ethnic cleansing, especially when nearly half of the population has a less than hundred years old claim to the land We forced a lot of German people to leave homes they made in France, Poland and Czechoslovakia too. It wasn't a genocide If the Israelis didn't want to experience this problem they should not have exported ethnic cleansing and ethnofacism from the Nazis mannerup posted:can you show a link where you got this figure from? I can’t access the most recent CBS from the Israeli government because it’s currently blocked in my country due to the ongoing war (seriously). A 2018 demographic survey puts the number at 44.9% Mizrahi and 31.8% Ashkenazi. You're probably right I think I might have looked at bad data there Fwiw the mizrahi are welcome to stay. Their current problems however are the fault of a white European rear end in a top hat from Pennsylvania Engorged Pedipalps fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 20:21
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I don't think you need to force anybody from the land, just combine the territories of Israel and Palestine into one state, allow all Palestinian refugees to return to their home country, and return all stolen land/houses to their rightful Palestinian owners. If someone is living in a stolen house, its hardly ethnic cleansing to serve them an eviction notice. All people who have to give up their land to the pre-Nakba owners would obviously still be allowed to live in the new state, just not by stealing houses to live in. For places where the transfer isn't of something close to what the historical land was like, like if a single-family home was rebuilt as a large apartment complex by an Israeli development, you could arrange for either cash payments or transfer ownership of whatevers currently on the land to the original Palestinian occupant of the land. I find it extremely unlikely that every single person in Israel is living in a stolen home so this would only affect a fraction directly. You can then just set up a normal-type democracy and noone had to get ethnically cleansed at all.
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Oct 25, 2023 20:23
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