|
to make an allegory, i'm happy to use the CIA world factbook for various information at a glance about countries, but i think using the CIA as a source for which states are doing crimes against humanity and which are not is much more suspect. if asked to justify this position, i would point to the CIA's role in legitimising the invasion of iraq; i don't see that as especially relevant when looking for stuff about the demographics of nigeria or what have you, however.
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2023 16:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 00:26 |
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:I don't think the point was to necessarily say "this information is false because of X" but more "the information probably isn't false but be wary of other information from that account." which is a fair warning because a broken clock can be right twice a day its still broken and it's nice to know this before I buy it. FYI: https://x.com/rnaudbertrand/status/1701421265918275859?s=46 https://x.com/rnaudbertrand/status/1711554170803892342?s=46 i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Oct 25, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2023 16:55
|
|
|
i fly airplanes posted:Speaks volumes that people glossed over his Uyghur genocide denialism and instead took offense at me calling out his participation in r/Sino and then defending quack medicine. the reason i didn't much want to discuss this is because "uyghur ethnic cleansing" or "uyghur genocide" denialism can mean anything from saying "nothing bad has ever happened in xinjiang" to endorsing op-eds from a mainstream european newspaper depending on the poster
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2023 17:04
|
|
|
Dante80 posted:That's what I got from that post too. There's random bits of batshittery he posts, like Mearsheimer or Aaron Maté.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2023 17:10
|
|
|
V. Illych L. posted:the reason i didn't much want to discuss this is because "uyghur ethnic cleansing" or "uyghur genocide" denialism can mean anything from saying "nothing bad has ever happened in xinjiang" to endorsing op-eds from a mainstream european newspaper depending on the poster Exactly—and this is in part, intentionally due to CCP strategy. https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/os-scook-092723.pdf Their outreach through intermediaries is "borrowing the boat to reach the sea"—using paid shills (most the time, white men) like Andy Boreham to get their messaging across.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2023 17:11
|
|
|
would you say "CCP" is the unbiased acronym
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2023 17:31
|
|
|
 hot take: the whole CCP/CPC controversy is a weird way to recycle ye olde PCF/CPF PCI/CPI controversy and it's especially surreal because the PRC itself doesn't appear to have a strong opinion and the whole "is there or is there not a international Soviet movement of which the national party conceives of itself as a section, where even anti-actually-existing-Sovietism is couched in Second International nostalgia" question is very definitely dead anyway far better to think seriously about the Chinese characteristics explicitly outlined in its Marxism ronya fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Oct 25, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2023 17:52
|
|
|
i fly airplanes posted:Exactly—and this is in part, intentionally due to CCP strategy. https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/os-scook-092723.pdf okay, but you realise that by the standard you've set we should outright disregard the nzz for printing that piece right
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2023 20:26
|
|
|
V. Illych L. posted:okay, but you realise that by the standard you've set we should outright disregard the nzz for printing that piece right False equivalence. It's not a good mark on a newspaper to publish pieces like that—no different than the puff pieces that appear in the NYT or WSJ. I wouldn't disregard them entirely, as they have a long history and ethical standard compared to a random white 'businessman' claiming expertise in Traditional Chinese Medicine.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2023 23:41
|
|
|
i fly airplanes posted:Speaks volumes that people glossed over his Uyghur genocide denialism and instead took offense at me calling out his participation in r/Sino and then defending quack medicine. Uh do you consider NZZ and The New Yorker misinformation though? Does “misinformation” just mean “editorializing” now?
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2023 23:45
|
|
|
eSports Chaebol posted:Uh do you consider NZZ and The New Yorker misinformation though? Does “misinformation” just mean “editorializing” now? The NZZ and The New Yorker are presenting completely opposing viewpoints. That was his response in regards to a critical New Yorker piece.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2023 23:47
|
|
|
e. you know what this is not going to go anywhere interesting, nevermind
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2023 00:07
|
|
|
ronya posted:hot take: the whole CCP/CPC controversy is a weird way to recycle ye olde PCF/CPF PCI/CPI controversy and it's especially surreal because the PRC itself doesn't appear to have a strong opinion and the whole "is there or is there not a international Soviet movement of which the national party conceives of itself as a section, where even anti-actually-existing-Sovietism is couched in Second International nostalgia" question is very definitely dead anyway I never realised the use of CCP was somehow loaded before I stumbled across the tankie-sphere. It's especially bizarre to me as I was regularly talking to senior party people back in the day (like 10 years ago) and they routinely used CCP, primarily because it helps distinguish from the Central Party Committee. The CCPCPC regularly came up in discussion, for instance. I can't help but feel this is an entirely concocted controversy.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2023 07:12
|
|
|
it's an intra-communist old battle - Parti Communiste Francais is in a way really different from Parti Communiste de France, as evidenced by two separate tiffs over the name (in 1919 and a Maoist recap in the 1970s) that is, in exactly those periods where the question of deference to an internationalist line (real or imagined) was active: that is, as one of many communist parties worldwide, or as one of many national parties on the domestic spectrum it's just especially weird because that internationalism this time is entirely one-sided: the party in question has at present exactly no ambiguities on whether its leadership is foundationally built on uniquely Chinese civilization
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2023 17:02
|
|
|
CCP/CPC is especially silly because it’s just English. Who exactly is the foreign audience for a rebrand? Non-tankies genuinely undecided on Socialism with Chinese Characteristics? All like 1000 of them on Earth?
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 00:36
|
|
|
I don't think the concept of a Shibboleth is particularly novel. I'm not entirely convinced on CCP being one (I think the actual one is using either in place of "China" when discussing what China's doing that doesn't necessitate referring to the party), but "China uses both" isn't exactly a smoking gun. Barack Obama has probably written his middle name down innumerable times, but you'd still raise an eyebrow if someone said "Barack HUSSEIN Obama".
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 00:47
|
|
|
Using CCP in place of PRC is perhaps unorthodox but it's nowhere near using, say, "Chicoms". That's the one where you can instantly discard whatever else the user is saying in pretty much every circumstance.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 00:59
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:I don't think the concept of a Shibboleth is particularly novel. I'm not entirely convinced on CCP being one (I think the actual one is using either in place of "China" when discussing what China's doing that doesn't necessitate referring to the party), but "China uses both" isn't exactly a smoking gun. Barack Obama has probably written his middle name down innumerable times, but you'd still raise an eyebrow if someone said "Barack HUSSEIN Obama". That's a poor comparison because Hussein carries with it an immediate association, one that would be negative for the target audience. CCP carries with it no obvious negative association, except maybe for a few people who had really bad experiences with Eve Online. Plus we're not talking occasional usage, here: I literally never heard any of the Party members I know use CPC, it was always CCP.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 01:27
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 01:41
|
|
|
Daduzi posted:That's a poor comparison because Hussein carries with it an immediate association, one that would be negative for the target audience. CCP carries with it no obvious negative association, except maybe for a few people who had really bad experiences with Eve Online. Also as a Canadian CPC means Conservative Party of Canada.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 01:42
|
|
|
I suppose we can say it's weird we refer to the KMT as the KMT and not the CNP
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 03:04
|
|
|
Just call them GMD, that'll work.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 03:10
|
|
|
GoutPatrol posted:Just call them GMD, that'll work. Too similar to GCD
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 03:57
|
|
|
what ronya's onto is a real thing which has a real history of contention on the radical left. after the bolsheviks took power, there was a conference in moscow where the bolsheviks enumerated twenty-one conditions (in norwegian these are called the "moscow theses") for the international communist movement. one of these conditions is name standardisation to denote loyalty to the greater Communist project. this was actually a big problem for many parties, including the norwegian labour party which briefly subscribed to the moscow theses but were very reluctant to change its name and were never able to suborn the union confederation to the party structure. so the version of the name denotes several things about the allegiance of the party, its view of the bolshevik revolution (which again has deep ideological implications) and the subsequent intra-soviet power struggle, the comintern etc. as one enters the somewhat esoteric realm of high ideology the naming convention is full of significance. i do not think, however, that almost anyone itt is ascribing such significance to the naming convention, but there is a real ideological reason why CCP and CPC are not straightforwardly interchangable. this is also why communist microparties have been called things like "communist party of XYZ(ml)" or "XYZ revolutionary league" - you can generally guess that the former is a maoist party and the latter is trotskyist from the structure of the name.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 12:33
|
|
|
V. Illych L. posted:there is a real ideological reason why CCP and CPC are not straightforwardly interchangable. Then how come they are used interchangeably by members of said party?
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 17:34
|
|
|
V. Illych L. posted:what ronya's onto is a real thing which has a real history of contention on the radical left. after the bolsheviks took power, there was a conference in moscow where the bolsheviks enumerated twenty-one conditions (in norwegian these are called the "moscow theses") for the international communist movement. one of these conditions is name standardisation to denote loyalty to the greater Communist project. this was actually a big problem for many parties, including the norwegian labour party which briefly subscribed to the moscow theses but were very reluctant to change its name and were never able to suborn the union confederation to the party structure. I think its a bit of a stretch to say they aren't straight forwardly interchangeble. There's maybe a small historical context where one version might be slightly more technically correct than the other, but there's no evidence that this has implications on the level of saying "the ukraine" vs Ukraine. Even if you took say, political commentators/streamers who are critical of ML's like Keffals I don't think this would mean or imply anything about them. I don't think there's a single person anywhere around the world where you can go "They say CCP instead of CPC, ergo this is suspect." The microparties seem to do stuff like that because they're basically made up of similarly terminally online people who are only a few steps removed from sovcits in terms of ascribing EXTREMELY important meanings to trivial things. I think its actually very simple to say that "There is a minor historical difference between CCP and CPC but no one relevant, especially anyone in China, actually cares."
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 18:35
|
|
|
Daduzi posted:Then how come they are used interchangeably by members of said party? Because the USSR no longer exists so there's no longer the problem of implicitly pledging allegiance to Moscow. Do radical leftist groups in the west have nothing better to do that argue furiously over minor nuanced points of nomenclature that no longer have relevance to the real world? Look into your heart for the answer. e: That is only half a joke. There is a big divergence point in 'what people care about' between some radical leftist groups in the west where history kinda stopped in 1991, and people living in say, China, where that argument over what to call yourself stopped mattering decades ago and there are a lot more important things to care about. e2: but to be absolutely clear V. Illych L is absolutely right about the history and why someone genuinely concerned about the legitimate mantle of the vanguard party in TYOOL 2023 might consider it an issue Alchenar fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Oct 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 19:30
|
|
|
As a Tankie I can tell you nobody gives a poo poo in real life about CCP/CPC. It's online garbage. But the stuff about names indicating flavor of Marxism (or trying to disguise it, but that's just trots again) is correct.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 19:41
|
|
|
Why do tankies hate trots again? They're basically socialists who disagreed with Stalin and that's basically the extent of the difference right?
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 20:02
|
|
|
Because of what they do/don't do now. Some do nothing but write criticisms in essay form. some think they should just sell physical newspapers because Lenin said newspapers good. some trick kids on college campuses to join their revenue generating org/cult and drain them like vampires before the kid gives up and is forever tainted thinking that is what a communist party does. Some think they can bring about a revolution by getting elected. It boils down to their revisionism and denial of the evidence of what works which results in them wasting time and effort doing jack poo poo and making the real work harder for the rest of us.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 20:22
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:Why do tankies hate trots again? They're basically socialists who disagreed with Stalin and that's basically the extent of the difference right? The theoretical differences are a point of contention, and the various strains of sectarian marxism making reading the history of this stuff annoying because some of the most dedicated and talented historians also bring sectarian biases to their work. However, in the context of the US, if you want to think about the animosities between various sectarian groups, I think you need to think about the New Left. With the publication of the gundrisse in English and translation of the works of Georg Luckas and others in the 60s, segments of the New Left had a turn to marxism in the 1960s. However, for example, the major Trotskyist strain led by Max Shachtman, a big shot of the old left in the 30s and 40s, was in favor of the Vietnam War while the Maoist inspired Marxists who went on to be the "winners" of that era's sectarian battles by the time you get to the 70s were more popular as they were opposed to the Vietnam War. Someone else can maybe elaborate or correct that history, but I think when you see tankies on the internet, I think it can be helpful to think of them as bizarre aftershocks of the New Left. plogo fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Oct 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 20:37
|
|
|
GoutPatrol posted:Just call them GMD, that'll work. Does the KMT roll with pinyin? It was my understanding that Taiwan is still saddled with Wade-Giles Romanization.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 20:40
|
|
|
A big reason why modern 'Tankies' (people who support Communism) have a distaste for Trotskyism is the fact that it has limited if any successes to its name but a vibrant history of "useful idiot" opposition to tangible governments in opposition to the West. There's an understandably dim viewing of Western Leftism from "Tankies" over its ability to be co-opted, watered down, redirected, and divided, largely in part because of its timid relation to effective movements. As Michael Parenti puts it:quote:The pure (libertarian) socialists' ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed. Trotskyism is, fairly or unfairly, seen in a way not unlike Western Socialism, "Progressivism", Anarchism, "Social Democrat"; retreating from success to appease narratives. You don't want to defend Communism because it actually did things which opens itself to criticism, so you retreat to something inoffensive (that will still get denounced anyways). I think this is a little unfair to Trotskyist thought, but I can understand the logic. ... Also there's a general meme/stigma about Trotskyist groups being full of sexual predators, Obama-esque "Leftist for the women" guys.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 21:15
|
|
|
Eric Cantonese posted:Does the KMT roll with pinyin? It was my understanding that Taiwan is still saddled with Wade-Giles Romanization. The KMT is the party generally in favor of Hanyu pinyin standardization. In a few places you have Tong Yong pinyin, which is pretty similar but was implemented so piecemeal that it is dumb (like I drive on a road every day where I can see the signs change from Zhongshan to Jhongshan when I change districts.) When the official Hanyu pinyin change happened in 2009 several places (like most cities) had their Wades-Giles romanization grandfathered in (Hsinchu, Kaohsiung, etc) so those are still around on everything old. And then weren't going to change how they spelled their name on a passport so for surnames those are going to be around forever unless a family chooses to change Hsieh to Xie, Lee to Li, Chang to Zhang, etc. So that is why KMT is still around. Generally a confusing system that I don't expect ever to standardize to one thing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 21:23
|
|
|
The KMT use "KMT" in English language media because of the brand recognition/historical continuity factor in the English world. They think it adds legitimacy by tying them all the way back to the days when WG romanization was the standard and also not coincidentally they were in charge of the mainland. They also call Sun Zhongshan "Sun Yat-sen" in English still for the same reason.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 21:44
|
|
|
Daduzi posted:Then how come they are used interchangeably by members of said party? because ideological nitpicking at this level is not a mandatory exercise among members of the communist party of china, i would guess Raenir Salazar posted:I think its a bit of a stretch to say they aren't straight forwardly interchangeble. There's maybe a small historical context where one version might be slightly more technically correct than the other, but there's no evidence that this has implications on the level of saying "the ukraine" vs Ukraine. Even if you took say, political commentators/streamers who are critical of ML's like Keffals I don't think this would mean or imply anything about them. I don't think there's a single person anywhere around the world where you can go "They say CCP instead of CPC, ergo this is suspect." i provided a specific example of the naming scheme being problematic in the post you're quoting. i don't speak nor read any chinese language, so i can't comment specifically on how this plays out in china - i read this thread mainly to keep tabs at a slightly-above-tabloid level - but naming conventions have in fact been a big deal on the radical left, including among groups which have been real political actors and not just twelve nerds in a coffee shop somewhere. the point coming up itt seems to indicate that some people do react to the use of CCP vs CPC. V. Illych L. fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Oct 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 22:03
|
|
|
An interesting translated essay from 2011 that is making the rounds: https://twitter.com/dylanleviking/status/1715947082958488004 https://www.strategictranslation.org/articles/a-study-of-the-industrial-party-and-the-sentimental-party quote:Moreover, what is there to admire in the American financial industry, in Hollywood, in the Grammys, or in the NBA? We should keep smelting our iron and let the Americans do the singing and dancing. Iron and copper contain strength, and those things they pass their time with are like the decadent playthings of the Eight Banners. At present, we are building the world's largest 80,000-ton stamping die,18 which will allow us to make aerospace parts much more efficiently than the Americans can. That is truly high-end! Interesting throughout, albeit mostly for the non-economist (and non-Marxist!) perspective that leads one cheerfully careening down the slope toward overproduction of capital goods
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2023 11:53
|
|
|
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/pol...mier-li-keqiang So far so normal: quote:A lecturer at Shanghai Jiao Tong University said its party committee had issued a notice calling on all faculties and departments to “do a good job on campus security and stability in the coming days to ensure that all aspects of public opinion remain safe and orderly”. yeah but the whole trouble with Hu Yaobang was that the memorial service presented an unimpeachable reason to gather in public with messages, back when the penalty for public dissent was even steeper. Once the precedent is set that this is no longer an unimpeachable reason, it's not really different from any other political event that's a different dynamic from the November blank paper protests ultimately the problem with continually winning these confrontations by default is that they no longer plausibly present existential threats that can justify destroying people - but that's more of a long term thing
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2023 15:59
|
|
|
From a China bull: https://twitter.com/GlennLuk/status/1718818290192244790 The whole thread is interesting. But particularly offhand remark: https://twitter.com/GlennLuk/status/1718818367006769225 (import substitution through the back door? My own inclination is that the learning-by-exporting effect is probably real and probably grounded in avoiding local capture and closed access. And Luk neglects the degree to which Japanese and South Korean firms, in their day, also treated the rest of Southeast Asia as the markets for lower-end or aging production chains; it's not a substitute for climbing up the value chain by definition) ronya fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Oct 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 17:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 00:26 |
|
|
Well China is a big enough domestic market that they could pull off ISI to some degree, but it won't be the same pace of growth as before.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 17:15
|
|
