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In a two-state solution, Israelis occupying Palestinian homes should be evicted; Israel can compensate and resettle them on their own land. In a one-state solution, reparations & resettlement for Palestinians who were displaced. While we're doing repetitive hypotheticals on how to approach the I/P dilemma in the middle of an active genocide we might as well throw in some wishcasting: scour Israeli social media, the ones who insulted Palestinians get evicted, the ones who specifically mocked the owners they displaced pay back-rent.
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Oct 25, 2023 22:24
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I said it earlier in the thread but an ethnostate marries the existence of the state to the existence of the people so that descriptions like Zionist become conflated with Jewish and it is expressly by design and intended to happen as a self defense mechanism against criticism since you can go "nyahh antisemitism!!" when someone says stop bombing hospitals
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Oct 25, 2023 22:25
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Szarrukin posted:https://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/1716848578453287052 Glad to see someone has come out with a complete answer. A last fix. A resolution that will put a finite end to the problem. I feel like I'm looking for some other words but I can't remember them.
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Oct 25, 2023 22:25
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:We forced a lot of German people to leave homes they made in France, Poland and Czechoslovakia too. It wasn't a genocide in fact, the ethnic cleansing of germans after ww2 absolutely was genocidal and was bad, actually.
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Oct 25, 2023 22:26
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:No, I am suggesting punishing the people of Israel for the genocide they are doing right now, not because of where they were born They (the people) didn't do those crimes though (the state did)? You're literally just going "No except yes." What's the distinction you're drawing here? How are every single Israeli equally responsible? The only logical answer from your positions is because they choose to live in Israel, hence punishing people because of where they were born. Are you also going to punish Jordan and Egypt for occupying the West Bank and Gaza and likewise participating in denying Palestinians their right to self-determination? Noise Complaint posted:Stop trying to conflate being Jewish with Zionists, it's intellectually dishonest and you're just trying to bait this poster. Engorged Pedipalps has multiple times made no distinction between "Zionists" (settlers in the West bank and the leadership/elites responsible presumably?) and everyday jews living in Israel. They don't even specify "Zionists", they literally said "the people of Israel", as in all of them.
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Oct 25, 2023 22:27
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Raenir Salazar posted:They (the people) didn't do those crimes though (the state did)? You're literally just going "No except yes." What's the distinction you're drawing here? How are every single Israeli equally responsible? The only logical answer from your positions is because they choose to live in Israel, hence punishing people because of where they were born. Are you also going to punish Jordan and Egypt for occupying the West Bank and Gaza and likewise participating in denying Palestinians their right to self-determination? It's a democratic state dude you don't get to vote for something continuously for forty or fifty years and then claim to have no responsibility for the outcome It's very clear I'm talking about the state of Israel and Zionism as a concept. You want this to be about the Jewish people, but I refuse to equate Judaism with mass scale murder and the ethnic cleansing of Muslims Engorged Pedipalps fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Oct 26, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 22:30
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Noise Complaint posted:Stop trying to conflate being Jewish with Zionists, it's intellectually dishonest and you're just trying to bait this poster. I'm not conflating Jews with Zionists - I myself am Jewish and not Zionist, many other posters here clearly are as well. The collective punishment advocate in this thread didn't say "punish the Zionists," they said "punish the people of Israel," and it's clear they specifically mean Israeli Jews, based on their strenuous defense of collective punishment against people of the wrong ethnicity. Unless they also want to see Palestinian citizens of Israel deported in a second Nakba but I'm extending good faith that they don't want that. They didn't say 'punish the Nazis," they said "punish the Germans." It is very clear they believe Israeli Jews should be punished with forced relocation, which is ethnic cleansing. Engorged Pedipalps posted:It's very clear I'm talking about the state of Israel and Zionism as a concept. When you talk about "punishing the people of Israel," who are you imagining being punished? Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 22:31
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punishedkissinger posted:the big thing for me is that every living member of the PIRA i've seen comment on Hamas is pretty supportive. 
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Oct 25, 2023 22:41
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Raenir Salazar posted:"Zionists" (settlers in the West bank and the leadership/elites responsible presumably?) and everyday jews living in Israel. A Zionist is a nationalist who are/were for the establishment and maintaining the ethnostate of Israel in the land of Palestine. It doesn't have to just be settlers and leadership/elites.
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Oct 25, 2023 22:45
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I said come in! posted:I thought the support for the Nazi party wasn't actually that high? That the Nazi's more or less forced their way into power. I mean if U.S. presidential elections are anything to go off of, its totally possible for someone to come into power with significantly less popular support than their political opponent (because our election system is loving stupid). The Nazi party didn't have overwhelming support, but it wasn't lacking in support either. In the final election before the Nazis seized full power, the Nazis were the largest party. Ultimately, the problem was that the increasingly dysfunctional nature of Weimar politics drove people to the radical parties, such as the Nazis and the socialists, making it increasingly difficult for the more moderate parties to keep their grip on power and marginalize the radicals. Eventually it reached a point where it was impossible to form a government without bringing in one of the radical parties. And for various reasons, Weimar politics were already dominated by conservatives who absolutely loathed communists and found democracy to be annoying and tiresome, so the Nazis were their obvious choice to partner with. None of that justifies ethnic cleansing, though! And as a general rule of thumb, committing atrocities against a civilian population (mass forced population transfers are absolutely an atrocity no matter what justifications you cite) as revenge for them voting wrong is a dick move! That's the very definition of collective punishment.
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Oct 25, 2023 22:49
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I'm not conflating Jews with Zionists - I myself am Jewish and not Zionist, many other posters here clearly are as well. The people of Israel who have voting rights and the ability to freely travel within Israel. If those people all happen to be Jewish because of policies they voted for, that is an unfortunate coincidence, but has nothing to do with Jewish people as a whole, about half of whom live outside of Israel If the policies of an ethnostate dehumanize everyone but one ethnicity that is, by my standards, evil and wrong and while the ethnicity behind that ethnostate is not broadly responsible, the people who empower that ethnostate within that ethnostate are responsible for it's actions
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Oct 25, 2023 22:54
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Darth Walrus posted:Hamas is the government of Gaza, and therefore runs the public health ministry. Being a government means that they care a lot more about keeping an accurate track record of who is alive and dead in their territory than exaggerating casualties to play for the sympathy of countries that have already written off two million people as acceptable losses, and so their death figures have historically been very accurate (which is why the World Health Organisation uses them as a primary source). After Operation Protective Edge in 2014, for example, the Gaza Health Ministry estimated 2,310 people were killed. Independent UN observers estimated it was 2,251. If they're off now, they're likely undercounting because the total collapse of Gaza's medical/bureaucratic infrastructure and the sheer devastation Israel has wrought means they simply haven't found and put names to all the corpses yet. thanks for that numbers comparison, I was in fact wondering
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Oct 25, 2023 22:54
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:The people of Israel who have voting rights and the ability to freely travel within Israel. Does this mean that you want to expel over a million Arab Muslims from their homes in the Israel?
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Oct 25, 2023 22:55
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:It's a democratic state dude you don't get to vote for something continuously for forty or fifty years and then claim to have no responsibility for the outcome Engorged Pedipalps posted:The people of Israel who have voting rights and the ability to freely travel within Israel. I'm not sure what you're talking about but you still seem to affirm that you want to punish "the people of Israel" (i.e anyone who could participate in Israeli society) and that is still illegal collective punishment under international law and ethnic cleansing and genocide under the UN definition. I also hope you likewise understand that by your argument, Republicans who target African Americans with gerrymandering that would otherwise be illegal on the basis of their political affiliation are completely fine to do so? Because they aren't, by their argument, specifically seeking to disenfranchise African Americans and other vulnerable groups, but "democrats" (who happen to overwhelmingly be those demographics in those regions). Afterall I can't confirm whats within the heart of hearts of Republicans than I can see within yours and have to treat both yours at face value, I can only look at the results and thankfully, conclude both your words and theirs are equally invalid. If you don't agree with Republicans doing this than the only consistent principled position is to reject that argument in its entirety and to accept that collectively punishing Israeli's is wrong. It's bad enough that any hypothetical coalition forced to occupy Israel to dismantle its current government would inflict considerable suffering, there's no need for further violence. Noise Complaint posted:A Zionist is a nationalist who are/were for the establishment and maintaining the ethnostate of Israel in the land of Palestine. It doesn't have to just be settlers and leadership/elites. That sounds nebulously like a political opinion someone may or may not have and presumably impossible to verify how many people can be identified as having that opinion; certainly not everyone who happens to live in Israel or even a majority. Engorged Pedipalps has been pretty clear in affirming that they aren't targeting merely people with particularly loathsome political beliefs but "the people of Israel" not "the people of Israel I argue with on facebook."
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Oct 25, 2023 23:04
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It really is not a good idea to move a huge population of people by force after a conflict ends. Punishing those in power is realistic though and absolutely something that should happen to Israels leadership. What that punishment looks like would be extremely complicated as is. But probably involve the death penalty if we are being totally honest.
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Oct 25, 2023 23:05
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Speaking of the end of Gazan health infrastructure: https://x.com/beltrew/status/1717247691455971742?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Oct 25, 2023 23:11
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The idea that the Ministry of Health would be exaggerating the numbers is laughable - nobody cares. Israel killed over 2000 Palestinians because three kids were murdered and nobody cared. They killed hundreds because a couple soldiers died and one got grabbed and nobody cared. It's not really something one can fudge since we know previous death tolls and how much heavier Israeli bombardment has been this time.
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Oct 25, 2023 23:13
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Edit, on second thought: this derail has gone on long enough
Engorged Pedipalps fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 23:14
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the holy poopacy posted:1948 was an entire lifetime ago and some Israeli roots go back a century or more. At some point you're just punishing people for being born in the wrong place. Just have the same laws regarding inheritance that Jewish people get apply to non Jewish people, have Jewish only municipalities welcome non Jewish people, give everyone born under Israeli control the same right as a Jewish person, stop and reimburse (through property transfers) non Jewish people for land confiscation since the creation of the Jewish state. And then it could actually consider itself a democracy. It's not that crazy. Israel doesn't have to a settler apartheid state that is constantly wobbling on the 3dge of instability as the cruelty it mets out reverberates and twists its institutions. Israel is pursuing those claims currently (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-set-to-seek-250b-compensation-for-jews-forced-out-of-arab-countries/amp/). They would have a much stronger foundation to press their claim if they did the same themselves.
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Oct 25, 2023 23:28
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Looks like nerve gas is back on the menu folks. https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-exclusive-israel-will-flood-hamas-tunnels-nerve-gas-under-delta-force-supervision
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Oct 25, 2023 23:36
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Ugh. I'm happy thread exists, but watching Biden and Netanyahu through this is cringe worthy and simultaneously depressing and yet... nobody's going to pressure Netanyahu to stop diplomatically or otherwise, will they?
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Oct 25, 2023 23:43
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mannerup posted:I agree that Hamas likely isn’t telling the truth, but saying Palestinians are potentially untruthful is just more conflating of the two. Not great messaging from the President of the United States. And Gaza Ministry of Health death numbers are considered reliable by basically everyone except hardcore Israel idealogues.
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Oct 25, 2023 23:45
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Stanley Pain posted:Looks like nerve gas is back on the menu folks. Very questionable that this is true and also not really possible even if it is.
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Oct 25, 2023 23:46
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I said come in! posted:It really is not a good idea to move a huge population of people by force after a conflict ends. Punishing those in power is realistic though and absolutely something that should happen to Israels leadership. What that punishment looks like would be extremely complicated as is. But probably involve the death penalty if we are being totally honest. Nuclear powers do not get their leaders executed for war crimes, this is something states develop nukes specifically to guarantee not happening. Between you and pedipalps guy I am not sure how many people remember that Israel has nukes but they have them and they can hit pretty much any city on earth from their submarines. Woolie Wool fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 23:47
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notwithoutmyanus posted:Ugh. I'm happy thread exists, but watching Biden and Netanyahu through this is cringe worthy and simultaneously depressing and yet... nobody's going to pressure Netanyahu to stop diplomatically or otherwise, will they? Biden absolutely wont, but Hezbollah, Houthis, Syria, and through their funding & training Iran are doing their best to send a signal not to invade. Constant effective rocket attacks (even with US naval support), the softening of Israel's northern border, the demonstration of new launchers both anti-ground and anti-air, and infantry skirmishes that are going in Hezbollah's favor, are signaling disaster if Israel goes in right now. Other arab nations not named UAE/KSA (who are being pressed by the public but don't give a poo poo personally) are warming up to sanctions, but currently are only giving harsh statements. Egypt is mobilizing its army, but only out of pressure from the citizens, who have completely overwhelmed the puppet regime's security. Russia and China are giving increasingly harsh declarations of genocide, but are unlikely to participate themselves (China because of their foreign policy of "do whatever, just respect our domestic politics", Russia because they're defending Syria and are on the offensive in Ukraine) The 'good guys'-US, UK, Germany, France-are sending carriers, anti-air, bomb supplies, and soldiers to or near Israel, to send the signal "if any of the above try to stop a blatant genocide in 2023 you will go to war with us. Blood must flow."
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Oct 25, 2023 23:55
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notwithoutmyanus posted:Ugh. I'm happy thread exists, but watching Biden and Netanyahu through this is cringe worthy and simultaneously depressing and yet... nobody's going to pressure Netanyahu to stop diplomatically or otherwise, will they? Not bloody likely, no. Just the same "Right To Defend Itself" babbling alongside handwringing about those poor children in Gaza, how terrible it is. They may as well show photos of wounded dogs and cats in Gaza at this point, it would get more of a reaction.
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Oct 25, 2023 23:59
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Woolie Wool posted:Nuclear powers do not get their leaders executed for war crimes, this is something states develop nukes specifically to guarantee not happening. Between you and pedipalps guy I am not sure how many people remember that Israel has nukes but they have them and they can hit pretty much any city on earth from their submarines. I did know Israel has nukes but hadn’t considered they would be used for that reason, but also that is obvious really.
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Oct 26, 2023 00:00
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Stanley Pain posted:Looks like nerve gas is back on the menu folks. There's absolutely no indication whatsoever that this information is coming from anyone with any knowledge or insight at all into Israeli planning. quote:Palestinian resistance groups expect Israel to flood Hamas tunnels with nerve gas and chemical weapons under the surveillance of US Delta Force commandos as part of a surprise attack on the Gaza Strip, a senior Arab source familiar with the groups told Middle East Eye. At best, it's a window into what kinds of atrocities Palestinians think Israel and the US are capable of. At worst, it's straight-up propaganda made up out of whole cloth.
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Oct 26, 2023 00:01
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I said come in! posted:I did know Israel has nukes but hadn’t considered they would be used for that reason, but also that is obvious really. Why wouldn't they? To ensure your state can continue to operate and your borders remain inviolate no matter what is what nukes are for. If Israel has to become a Zionist North Korea to ensure Zionists stay in power, they will do so.
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Oct 26, 2023 00:08
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"Do no harm" https://twitter.com/avitalrachel/status/1717096748496150579 This is a complete institutional capture.
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Oct 26, 2023 00:10
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Mister Fister posted:"Do no harm" What are you complaining about exactly? Have you read the letter? For clarity, that appears to be a google document being edited by a dozen or so people, which if the implication is that this represents "complete institutional capture" by some antisemitic plot seems rather laughable, especially when the institution of many actual governments are throwing material support behind the atrocities being committed. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Oct 26, 2023 |
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Oct 26, 2023 00:12
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That argument falls apart because Hamas took non-Jewish, non-Israeli hostages too so it clearly cannot be a "primum non nocere doesn't apply to Jews" nonsense
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Oct 26, 2023 00:34
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Mister Fister posted:"Do no harm" This is an anonymous letter that people "sign" by putting their name into a google form. I could sign it right now if I wanted to. I don't see how that's institutional capture. But if you want to argue for it, you're going to have to use your own words, rather than posting some random outrage tweet with no real commentary.
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Oct 26, 2023 00:36
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I said come in! posted:I did know Israel has nukes but hadn’t considered they would be used for that reason, but also that is obvious really. Supposedly the policy of the state may be to nuke everyone if it looks like they're going to fail which is really cool and great https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option Woolie Wool posted:Nuclear powers do not get their leaders executed for war crimes, this is something states develop nukes specifically to guarantee not happening. Between you and pedipalps guy I am not sure how many people remember that Israel has nukes but they have them and they can hit pretty much any city on earth from their submarines. I know all about it, and it sucks
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Oct 26, 2023 00:54
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I said come in! posted:I did know Israel has nukes but hadn’t considered they would be used for that reason, but also that is obvious really. My big nightmare is if Hezbollah gets involved. In that case would Israel use nukes on Lebanon? Or would their conventional weapons be enough? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 26, 2023 00:58
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Mister Fister posted:This is a complete institutional capture. People lose jobs, job offers, and have to resign from a tech conference for saying objectively correct things about what Israel is doing but yeah institutional capture for the Palestinians.
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Oct 26, 2023 00:59
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Willo567 posted:My big nightmare is if Hezbollah gets involved. In that case would Israel use nukes on Lebanon? Or would their conventional weapons be enough? They'd have no need to use them on Lebanon. Maybe if multiple Arab countries invaded and everyone else stayed out of it, but that is still insane clancychat.
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Oct 26, 2023 01:02
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Private Speech posted:They'd have no need to use them on Lebanon. Doesn't Hezbollah have 150,000 missiles aimed at Israel? That wouldn't lead Isreal to do something extreme?
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Oct 26, 2023 01:08
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punishedkissinger posted:the big thing for me is that every living member of the PIRA i've seen comment on Hamas is pretty supportive. The flip side of that is the loyalists support Israel. While they existed they also supported Rhodesia and Apartheid South Africa.
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Oct 26, 2023 01:15
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Willo567 posted:Doesn't Hezbollah have 150,000 missiles aimed at Israel? That wouldn't lead Isreal to do something extreme? Hezbollah has 150,000 rockets and or missiles in their arsenal, they are not all missiles, and they are not all "aimed at Israel" The actual content of the article whose headline you're quoting is pretty explicit about this: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...df-777df6210000 Engorged Pedipalps fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Oct 26, 2023 |
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Oct 26, 2023 01:18
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