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Main Paineframe posted:This is an anonymous letter that people "sign" by putting their name into a google form. I could sign it right now if I wanted to. The fact that releasing hostages is a debateable thing is insane.
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Oct 26, 2023 01:19
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I wish Lancet hadn't deteriorated to the point that it was hosting letters trying to weigh in on this poo poo from any direction.
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Oct 26, 2023 01:21
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Nobody is nuking anybody Willo.
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Oct 26, 2023 01:21
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 26, 2023 01:23
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Mister Fister posted:The fact that releasing hostages is a debateable thing is insane. I was going to suggest it wasn't really germane to the letter, but they included the right of return so yeah, I can't imagine not calling for the return of innocent hostages. I wouldn't go further than that unless the plan was to call for the release of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails as well.
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Oct 26, 2023 01:24
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Mister Fister posted:"Do no harm" Why would TheLancet be commenting on hostages at all?
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Oct 26, 2023 01:25
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Mister Fister posted:The fact that releasing hostages is a debateable thing is insane. It is a letter intended to be signed by health workers, so the points are centered around healthcare. I would suggest that it is likely to be removed because it is outside the remit of healthcare, the "debate" would be what to include in the letter. This is pretty basic media literacy.
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Oct 26, 2023 01:30
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OwlFancier posted:It is a letter intended to be signed by health workers, so the points are centered around healthcare. I would suggest that it is likely to be removed because it is outside the remit of healthcare, the "debate" would be what to include in the letter. Very little of the letter is about healthcare in any direct capacity, let alone regarding material relevant to medical science or healthcare policy, which was at one point the purpose of the journal. The letter continues past the screenshot you've cut out to talk about things like the right of return.
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Oct 26, 2023 01:35
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Stanley Pain posted:Looks like nerve gas is back on the menu folks. Yeah I don't wanna hear anyone in the west ever loving complain about other countries alleged human rights violations ever again.
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Oct 26, 2023 01:35
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Discendo Vox posted:Very little of the letter is about healthcare in any direct capacity, let alone regarding material relevant to medical science or healthcare policy. The letter continues past the screenshot you've cut out to talk about things like the right of return. Ensuring refugees can stop being refugees at some point would seem to fall within the general remit of rendering aid. I read the whole thing, it seems quite coherently focused on facilitating aid in Gaza, i.e "stop blowing it up, stop starving it of supplies people need to live and render medical aid, stop bombing doctors and hospitals in particular, stop displacing shitloads of people into neighbouring regions that may not be able to support them" It seems quite reasonable to me that a journal of health workers might have an interest in the matter. I fail to see anything objectionable about it.
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Oct 26, 2023 01:40
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Willo567 posted:Doesn't Hezbollah have 150,000 missiles aimed at Israel? That wouldn't lead Isreal to do something extreme? No. Unguided rockets the people can hang out in shelters and weather it out, along side responding with their own munitions and bombs. Clancy time is reserved for if Hezbollah tried to push near their population centers in force to capture territory. I’m not sure what happens if Iran starts slinging ballistic missiles. None of the Arab states are coming to save the Palestinians. No one came to save the Uighurs, no one is coming to save people from Hindu nationalists, no one is coming to save the North Korean people. Toss in again, Hamas being an Iranian proxy, and you add to the apathy. What would actually move the needle is a coordinated sanctioning regime. For as small as they are I understand that they actually have a good bit of gas and oil resources. What they don’t have is enough arable land. Central bank sanctions, shut down their diamond industry, etc…
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Oct 26, 2023 01:41
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Groovelord Neato posted:People lose jobs, job offers, and have to resign from a tech conference for saying objectively correct things about what Israel is doing but yeah institutional capture for the Palestinians. An editor of a science journal was fired for retweeting an Onion article about it
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Oct 26, 2023 01:42
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Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:No. Unguided rockets the people can hang out in shelters and weather it out, along side responding with their own munitions and bombs. Israel is going to eat themselves alive sooner or later anyways. Between all of the rampant bigotry and fighting among different groups of Jews, and getting rid of their supreme court, the country is going to descend into civil unrest after they no longer have a common enemy.
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Oct 26, 2023 01:53
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I said come in! posted:Israel is going to eat themselves alive sooner or later anyways. Between all of the rampant bigotry and fighting among different groups of Jews, and getting rid of their supreme court, the country is going to descend into civil unrest after they no longer have a common enemy. All out brawl between Haredi militias + Israeli Arab militias + standard right-wing psychopath militias + whatever's left of the IDF + Completely insane Dirlewanger-tier armed settlers all acting out their own personal Rwandas + like 40 different leftist militias that all hate each other + whatever Palestinians are left in Gaza and the West Bank at that point. Blarghalt fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Oct 26, 2023 |
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Oct 26, 2023 02:02
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Mister Fister posted:The fact that releasing hostages is a debateable thing is insane. Random people on the internet are going to debate all sorts of poo poo. Discendo Vox posted:Very little of the letter is about healthcare in any direct capacity, let alone regarding material relevant to medical science or healthcare policy, which was at one point the purpose of the journal. The letter continues past the screenshot you've cut out to talk about things like the right of return. It's worth noting that the Lancet does not appear to have actually published that letter. It is a letter that someone sent to the Lancet a couple days ago in hopes that they would publish it, but so far the Lancet has not published it. Which makes sense, because if the Lancet had published it, surely the tweeter would have linked to the Lancet's version, not an open form anyone can submit their name to. It's also worth nothing that while the Lancet hasn't published that letter, it has published two other letters weighing in on events in Gaza. The first one demands the unconditional release of hostages and calls for global condemnation of Hamas' actions. The second one declares that Gaza is facing a humanitarian disaster and calls for humanitarian aid.
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Oct 26, 2023 02:03
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Main Paineframe posted:It's also worth nothing that while the Lancet hasn't published that letter, it has published two other letters weighing in on events in Gaza. The first one demands the unconditional release of hostages and calls for global condemnation of Hamas' actions. The second one declares that Gaza is facing a humanitarian disaster and calls for humanitarian aid. Unsurprising, since like a lot of the other high-visibility journals, Lancet has been more oriented toward issuing takes and pursuing greater visibility than anything else for a long time now.
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Oct 26, 2023 02:16
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E2M2 posted:Yeah I don't wanna hear anyone in the west ever loving complain about other countries alleged human rights violations ever again. Yeah that whole article is full of red flags that I'm surprised it could be posted without extreme scepticism. Vague sources, not even being able to get basic poo poo right in the story like saying US Navy supervision but claiming it would be Delta Force? They're army not navy. If you're going to go all military conspiracy at least get the right overhyped special forces group and claim the Seals are going to do it if you're saying it's the navy. Like the actual pending ground invasion and current air campaign is horrific enough without making up some random spy movie poo poo.
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Oct 26, 2023 02:18
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I try to stay updated on this thread and sources provided for some reason, and I'm not even caught up tonight. But I listen to various npr affiliates between jobs, and I came up with an interesting thought experiment (not a reflection on NPR specifically). Take what western media says about Israel and apply it to Palestine. Turns out, civilian deaths in very large numbers are an inevitable and justifiable defense of Hamas actions. Does that feel gross? Than why are we saying it about Israel's actions? I'm no loving genius but this seeks to work every time and I've found it to be very enlightening.
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Oct 26, 2023 02:23
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Medical journals also have, basically, op-eds that people can submit for publication. Most of the time it is boring healthcare stuff, but every now and then it intersects with hot topics. Covid, abortion, universal healthcare, etc.
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Oct 26, 2023 02:34
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Nerve gas is a slow rolling green cloud that will eventually fill up the tunnels completely like in a movie
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Oct 26, 2023 02:37
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BRJurgis posted:I try to stay updated on this thread and sources provided for some reason, and I'm not even caught up tonight. But I listen to various npr affiliates between jobs, and I came up with an interesting thought experiment (not a reflection on NPR specifically). I don't think this is a particularly accurate position to attribute to "western media," however you'd define it.
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Oct 26, 2023 02:46
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Discendo Vox posted:I don't think this is a particularly accurate position to attribute to "western media," however you'd define it. OK, then. Perhaps it's more fair to say the result of our media. In my sphere there's a lot of "well Hamas beheaded those kids, Israel has to do what it has to do." Which seems to be what Biden and American response are at. Israel is our ally and omlettes and eggs and all. Sure, it's not as applicable here on SA because we're absolute sickos who purposely try to stay informed. I mean how many people even vote? But Israel being "the west" and therefore right, lands with folks. We're right, they're right. We're obviously the good guys yeah? I am entry level labor with uninformed america in my work, and I work for and interact with wealthy liberal clients too. We (as america) have a side in this, and it doesn't change unless we speak up. I know pro Palestine movements are happening, but from here it's a dubious position. Our brutality is an unfortunate but necessary act because we are right, apparently. Not a new story, I'm well aware.
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Oct 26, 2023 03:01
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Mister Fister posted:"Do no harm" I don't see why the Lancet needs to comment at all, but I doubt any of these people would be complaining about institutional capture if they went all in on condemning Hamas and supporting Israel's "right to defend itself" without mention of Israeli atrocities.
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Oct 26, 2023 03:01
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Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:No. Unguided rockets the people can hang out in shelters and weather it out, along side responding with their own munitions and bombs.
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Oct 26, 2023 03:04
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What is going on with the 200,000 Israelis in the north that were evacuated? That has got to put Israel in a really tough spot if this conflict goes in for a long time.
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Oct 26, 2023 03:07
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BRJurgis posted:OK, then. Perhaps it's more fair to say the result of our media. In my sphere there's a lot of "well Hamas beheaded those kids, Israel has to do what it has to do." Which seems to be what Biden and American response are at. Israel is our ally and omlettes and eggs and all. The "our media" I'm linking the New Yorker and a Washington Post editorial. It's just not as lockstep as you are presenting it- particularly this time around. I really wanna emphasize that our spheres, including this thread's selection of material, is not as representative of broader discourse as it might seem.
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Oct 26, 2023 03:07
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BRJurgis posted:I try to stay updated on this thread and sources provided for some reason, and I'm not even caught up tonight. But I listen to various npr affiliates between jobs, and I came up with an interesting thought experiment (not a reflection on NPR specifically). That's not a very accurate way of describing things. The claim about civilian casualties caused by the IDF is that the IDF was using reliable intel to target Hamas military targets and the civilian casualties came because Hamas was putting those military targets too close to civilians (which would make it the responsibility of Hamas). Sometimes you can even sprinkle in claims that Hamas was forcing the civilians to stay near the target. You can choose how much of that you believe and honestly, with the number of bombs Israel is dropping right now, I think it's hard to say that the IDF is being honest about this. Still, it provides a level of deniability for the IDF. Hamas doesn't even try to have deniability. They outright say that they are trying to kill civilians. They claim that they took civilians hostage. Those are war crimes by default.
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Oct 26, 2023 03:09
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Willo567 posted:Would Hezbollah actually invade or would they be content to just hurling rockets and missilea? They don't have good armor or any sort of air force, so I can't imagine it would go very well unless Israel was stretched thin already fighting multiple near peer fronts. \/\/\/ yep, the analysis i have seen from talking heads and osint people is that they're basically fixing israel to a second front to keep forces committed to the north instead of the gaza ground invasion. ummel fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Oct 26, 2023 |
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Oct 26, 2023 03:10
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Hezbollah has explicitly been targeting border security; cameras, stationed merkava's, bases, soldiers, drones. If Gaza can target inner Israel then so could Hezbollah, but they're focused on deteriorating the border. They know that their value is as deterrance to a threat of Gaza invasion, and the more threadbare the border gets the more feasible it will be to invade while the IDF are simulatenously getting rolled in Gaza and dealing with riots in the West Bank. Even if nothing comes of the mass protests across the middle east, the IDF is going to be stretched very thin. They're not accustomed to invasion, but neither is the modern IDF really accustomed to ground combat in their own state, where airstrikes could be less enticing. Depends on how the situation goes. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Oct 26, 2023 |
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Oct 26, 2023 03:10
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BRJurgis posted:OK, then. Perhaps it's more fair to say the result of our media. In my sphere there's a lot of "well Hamas beheaded those kids, Israel has to do what it has to do." Which seems to be what Biden and American response are at. Israel is our ally and omlettes and eggs and all. I get what you're trying to say but it's basically also really giving the benefit of the doubt and a real generosity to a rather oily ongoing narrative with a rather extensive agenda of not just "getting even" but really just wanting to clear out the entire land and hopefully probably push them into Egypt. I don't really understand what you mean by "the good guys", who is good here? There's some freshly-scrubbed, apple-cheeked reassurances that we're somehow on the right side of history, but we are not... The only people who are "good" are innocent bystanders who are getting pummeled but it's somehow okay because it's "necessary". Of course what Hamas did was horrible and absolutely cruel, and I don't need to flip a situation to see that. But even then, if you look start to look into the future, there's no eradicating of Hamas in general that's going to happen, because as we speak there's a whole new generation of Hamas in some form or another which will unfortunately come out of this. I don't really even buy that they're really going after Hamas only in all honesty. There's a lot more going on.
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Oct 26, 2023 03:32
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The extent of damage Gaza has suffered is very apparent in pretty much every livestream. There won't be anything left for the IDF to airstrike at this rate. I'm not so certain of a ground invasion anymore, with all of the delays.
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Oct 26, 2023 04:27
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I said come in! posted:What is going on with the 200,000 Israelis in the north that were evacuated? That has got to put Israel in a really tough spot if this conflict goes in for a long time. Well those people probably can't work right now. And between that and the 300,000 soldiers called up I'm sure this is taking a pretty significant hit on their economy.
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Oct 26, 2023 04:45
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Marenghi posted:How does the IRA having at one point used violence directly targeting innocent civilians on the basis of their religion in any way demonstrate they tried to avoid killing innocents. It was a tactic that fell to the wayside as it did more harm than good with the wider war for hearts and minds. But it did happen early during the armed campaign. The goals are fundamentally different. The IRA wanted independence of Northern Ireland. Hamas doesn't just want to free Palestinian they want it through the destruction of Israel then the establishment of a totalitarian fundamentalist Islamic State. Not just because that is what it's trying to accomplish but also because that's literally why it was created and why it exists. Marenghi posted:Hamas claims they don't intentionally target innocents. I'm sure they claim that yet their official social media says otherwise and there's also a well documented and unique history unlike other groups... Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology What Would Hamas Do If It Could Do Whatever It Wanted? Marenghi posted:Also the child causalities from the Al-Aqsa Flood is a couple dozen at most. Current child causalities from the Israeli bombardment is couple thousand. One side is killing exponentially more innocents than the other. I don't understand why you are bringing it as it's been discussed repeatedly over and over that the conflict has been largely one sided. It's been going on for decades. It's awful and it needs to stop.
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Oct 26, 2023 07:31
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I said come in! posted:What is going on with the 200,000 Israelis in the north that were evacuated? That has got to put Israel in a really tough spot if this conflict goes in for a long time. There is a further 200k evacuated from around Gaza. You should also consider the fact that most schools are still closed, making lots of parents have to take off work - many of them now as single parents because their spouse got called up. Then you have all the businesses that closed in the evacuated areas whcih could have had workers from outside of it, plus Covid style lack of work in things like weddings, sports, restaurants etc all over the country. So probably anywhere between 500k and like 1.5m people not working (out of 9m). Precarious situation for Israel, economically, and they were already doing pretty bad beforehand. I have a friend who works at a tech company in Israel and since most of his employees are young (so either called up or have young children) maybe around 30% are actually working. He also says that the people working are totally unproductive, but I assume people will get used to this new situation.
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Oct 26, 2023 07:44
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Marenghi posted:Netanyahu rejected any concessions to the Palestinian Government with regard to a settlement freeze as part of normalizing relations. It looked like Palestine was getting jack poo poo out of that. Where did you read that Netanyahu rejected any concessions with settlement freezes? Main Paineframe posted:I don't see why "it was largely rumored that the Palestinians would get something" is worth anything at all. The Palestinians weren't even involved in the negotiations. There's no reason for them to put their faith in a deal where they aren't even at the table, especially given that Arab states haven't exactly been reliable backers of the Palestinian cause in recent decades. As far as I'm aware, the general consensus of both foreign policy experts and Israeli sources was that the negotiations would end with the Palestinians being thrown under the bus. The Saudis wouldn't push very hard on demands for the Palestinian sake, especially given that MBS was already known to have little real interest in the Palestinian cause. Besides, several other Arab states have normalized relations with Israel in the last few years, and that only made things worse for Palestinians. I agree that we should absolutely be skeptical of any deal to Palestinians for a variety of reasons. It's also true the rest of the Middle East including Saudi Arabi haven't been that great as to so much have basically given up on the issue however I don't exactly blame them either. Even in your own sources it states Palestinians would get something which has been iterated by both the United States and Saudi Arabia. From another point of view, the issue Palestinian is extremely sensitive in the Arab world. Even MBS, can't simply dismiss their claims despite being a literal king. But context, this whole conversation isn't about if the deal or is good or bad. It was if another option exists that endless conflict or continued apartheid. While unlikely, I think one does do you? Main Paineframe posted:"Without conflict, there's no need for Hamas" isn't true at all. Hamas has a robust social services program, they've never been just a militant faction. On top of that, they've been running the civilian government for over a decade and a half now. For them, violence is a means, not an end. They'd be perfectly capable of surviving a peace deal...which is part of why Israel and the US refuse to involve them in peace negotiations of any sort, preferring to deal exclusively with the collaborationist wing of Fatah. So? They have social services because they are in control of the entirety of State. The groups purpose is the destruction of Israel and the establishment of Islamic State. I don't think I need to go further than that. If you are unpersuaded, please see their current leader's statements or social media.
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Oct 26, 2023 08:16
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the talks wrt the palestinians was a complete loving joke that deserves nothing but ridicule for not even bothering to include them
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Oct 26, 2023 08:25
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Hamas has not had elections since they won in 2006 have they?
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Oct 26, 2023 08:33
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Collapsing Farts posted:Hamas has not had elections since they won in 2006 have they? holding elections unilaterally would be a bad look. they've been continuously delayed because of breakdowns in negotiations between hamas, fatah and Israel. to only focus on recent developments, hamas wanted residents of east jerusalem to be included in the vote without israel's permission (not offered or granted) while fatah sought permission and abbas postponed elections entirely while they were at an impasse. that was more than two years ago so dunno of developments this year
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Oct 26, 2023 09:14
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Herstory Begins Now posted:the talks wrt the palestinians was a complete loving joke that deserves nothing but ridicule for not even bothering to include them They are absolutely involved and have been involved for months which is good but they don't have veto power over any deal. If they reject it publicly, it could still have an impact.
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Oct 26, 2023 09:18
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:So? They have social services because they are in control of the entirety of State. The groups purpose is the destruction of Israel and the establishment of Islamic State. I don't think I need to go further than that. If you are unpersuaded, please see their current leader's statements or social media. Genuinely, what has Israel done in the last two weeks to convince me it deserves to exist?
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Oct 26, 2023 09:34
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