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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Where did you read that Netanyahu rejected any concessions with settlement freezes? I should have said Netanyahu's government. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/21/whats-happening-with-normalising-ties-between-saudi-arabia-and-israel quote:Netanyahu’s government, including National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir, has rejected “concessions” to the Palestinian Authority (PA) government as part of normalising relations, including a settlement freeze in the occupied West Bank. Crosby B. Alfred posted:I'm sure they claim that yet their official social media says otherwise and there's also a well documented and unique history unlike other groups... It will take me time to read through these articles fully and cross reference them. But this sentence amused me. quote:[T]he Hamas Covenant of 1988 notably replaced the Marxist-Leninist conspiracy theory of world politics What is the ML conspiracy theory of world politics? Is geo-politics a conspiracy theory? Marenghi fucked around with this message at 10:53 on Oct 26, 2023 |
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Oct 26, 2023 10:43
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Marenghi posted:I should have said Netanyahu's government. That's interesting but at same time it's completely contrary to deal at hand along with numerous public statements. It's also really weird in the sense of negotiations where one party gets everything they want. Marenghi posted:It will take me time to read through these articles fully and cross reference them. But this sentence amused me. That's fine but overall Hamas are your bread and butter religious extremists. I'm sure they do plenty of governing but that doesn't change the fact they're literally insane zealots.
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Oct 26, 2023 10:58
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:That's interesting but at same time it's completely contrary to deal at hand along with numerous public statements. It's also really weird in the sense of negotiations where one party gets everything they want. Can you provide evidence of those please.
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Oct 26, 2023 11:00
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:I'm sure they do plenty of governing but that doesn't change the fact they're literally insane zealots. That describes the three main parties involved.
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Oct 26, 2023 11:02
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:That's fine but overall Hamas are your bread and butter religious extremists. I'm sure they do plenty of governing but that doesn't change the fact they're literally insane zealots. It shouldn't take ideological fervor to be able to provide the basic services of government but neoliberal society appears to not be capable of much more besides eat hot chip and enrich oneself. If your response to observations that a government is capable of governance and sharing burdens and building up of state capacity is to go "ooga booga they're scary religious fundamentalists" then you hosed up extremely badly at some point.
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Oct 26, 2023 11:10
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:That's fine but overall Hamas are your bread and butter religious extremists. I'm sure they do plenty of governing but that doesn't change the fact they're literally insane zealots. So is the Israeli government. Bibi's literally talking like Hitler now with that speech about the strong surviving and wiping out the weak
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Oct 26, 2023 11:40
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Nail Rat posted:So is the Israeli government. Bibi's literally talking like Hitler now with that speech about the strong surviving and wiping out the weak That was from 2018 The recent speech is people of light vs people of darkness and the prophecy of Isaiah. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Oct 26, 2023 |
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Oct 26, 2023 11:49
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The Cooper Union had a pro-palestine demonstration and they decided to head towards the school's library to protest jewish students there. They forced their way past security and the librarians had to lock the doors for the student's safety as they were chanting and banging on the doors. Police later escorted the jewish kids to safety. Not exactly sure how intimidating jewish american kids is supposed to bring peace to the middle east. https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1717297845592821933 https://twitter.com/JaiBhawani12987/status/1717461667011801488 https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/cooper-union-pro-palestinian-rally-jewish-students-library/
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Oct 26, 2023 12:07
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Marenghi posted:...... So Hamas comes from the PLO breaking up into factions(this is dramatically oversimplified), the PLO was a nominally leftist organization in the 1950s 'leftism is when you align with the soviets' way.
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Oct 26, 2023 12:09
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Mister Fister posted:The Cooper Union had a pro-palestine demonstration and they decided to head towards the school's library to protest jewish students there. They forced their way past security and the librarians had to lock the doors for the student's safety as they were chanting and banging on the doors. Police later escorted the jewish kids to safety. Not exactly sure how intimidating jewish american kids is supposed to bring peace to the middle east. The article repeatedly says both 'jewish' and 'pro israel' and while it's a literal hate crime to intimidate people because they're jewish it seems perfectly reasonable to shout down and scare off pro-israel people, so I'm curious what the real story is. lovely reporting.
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Oct 26, 2023 12:11
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Rigged Death Trap posted:That was from 2018 I'm still confused about the prophecy of Isaiah part. Is Bibi claiming he is the messiah? Because I'm pretty sure that's the only bit of Isaiah's prophecy that someone who didn't believe Jesus was the messiah could argue didn't happen.
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Oct 26, 2023 12:12
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:They are your bread and butter religious extremists. I'm sure they do plenty of governing but that doesn't change the fact they're literally insane zealots. Hard to know whether you’re talking about the Zionists, the Evangelicals, or someone else
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Oct 26, 2023 12:30
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Barrel Cactaur posted:So Hamas comes from the PLO breaking up into factions(this is dramatically oversimplified), the PLO was a nominally leftist organization in the 1950s 'leftism is when you align with the soviets' way. I am aware of that. I am just confused by how World Politics can be considered a Marxist conspiracy theory. I found the original article quoted because the link was broken. The quote cut off what the conspiracy was. quote:they attributed a mythical conspiracy against the Arabs to “U.S. imperialism” and its Israeli “spearhead”—echoing the propaganda of their patrons, the Soviets.6 Indeed, the Hamas Covenant of 1988 notably replaced the Marxist-Leninist conspiracy theory of world politics with the classic anti-Semitic tropes of Nazism and European fascism, which the Islamists had absorbed when they collaborated with the Nazis during World War II. I guess US imperialism was the Marxist-Leninist conspiracy theory. Marenghi fucked around with this message at 12:39 on Oct 26, 2023 |
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Oct 26, 2023 12:33
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Marenghi posted:I am aware of that. I am just confused by how World Politics can be considered a Marxist conspiracy theory. Only a conspiracy theorist would ever believe the US is doing shady poo poo to other countries! https://twitter.com/gbrew24/status/1717314627267113211
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Oct 26, 2023 12:42
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Stanley Pain posted:Looks like nerve gas is back on the menu folks. It's a fourth hand bullshit rumour that doesn't make any sense, and the article has an awful, awful clickbait title to boot.
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Oct 26, 2023 13:19
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:The goals are fundamentally different. The IRA wanted independence of Northern Ireland. Hamas doesn't just want to free Palestinian they want it through the destruction of Israel then the establishment of a totalitarian fundamentalist Islamic State. Not just because that is what it's trying to accomplish but also because that's literally why it was created and why it exists. They're probably bringing it up because Hamas has said they would accept the '67 borders and Israel rejected their stance change. I mean you linked a Jeffrey Goldberg piece (lol) that predates that change. Comparing the Hamas charter to Mein Kampf is Holocaust minimization but a lot of pro-Israel morons seem to be fond of doing that lately.
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Oct 26, 2023 13:26
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Groovelord Neato posted:They're probably bringing it up because Hamas has said they would accept the '67 borders and Israel rejected their stance change. They said they'd start with the 1967 borders but that they would never recognize Israel and still plan on 'liberating' all of historic Palestine. This was already gone over in this thread. Hamas is just not just happy with 1967 borders. They want everything, and have zero plans to negotiate, which is not a realistic or moral stance, no more than Israel wanting everything is either. https://www.dw.com/en/hamas-recognizes-1967-borders-rejects-israel/a-38656798 https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-assures-critics-israels-destruction-still-a-goal/
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Oct 26, 2023 13:57
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Bel Shazar posted:The article repeatedly says both 'jewish' and 'pro israel' and while it's a literal hate crime to intimidate people because they're jewish it seems perfectly reasonable to shout down and scare off pro-israel people, so I'm curious what the real story is. lovely reporting. In some alternate reality, these students are physically attacked and some goons will justify it as 'praxis'. This poo poo is not ok. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 26, 2023 14:00
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"We will accept the '67 borders with Jerusalem as the capital" is negotiating. They did it specifically for that reason. Recognizing Israel is who cares we know they're never going to destroy Israel.
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Oct 26, 2023 14:00
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Mister Fister posted:In some alternate reality, these students are physically attacked and some goons will justify it as 'praxis'. This poo poo is not ok. wow chilling. it's so disturbing to imagine something that didn't happen. meanwhile it's not even clear the protesters were protesting those students or knew they were there. the reporting is completely useless tbh
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Oct 26, 2023 14:01
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Bel Shazar posted:The article repeatedly says both 'jewish' and 'pro israel' and while it's a literal hate crime to intimidate people because they're jewish it seems perfectly reasonable to shout down and scare off pro-israel people, so I'm curious what the real story is. lovely reporting. In your opinion, is "shouting down and scaring off" not an intimidation tactic?
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Oct 26, 2023 14:07
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Mister Fister posted:In some alternate reality, these students are physically attacked and some goons will justify it as 'praxis'. This poo poo is not ok. In some alternate universe Israel genocides Palestinians...oh wait that is actually a real thing unlike your scenario
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Oct 26, 2023 14:13
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Groovelord Neato posted:"We will accept the '67 borders with Jerusalem as the capital" is negotiating. They did it specifically for that reason. Recognizing Israel is who cares we know they're never going to destroy Israel.
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Oct 26, 2023 14:13
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Irony Be My Shield posted:This argument only holds if Gaza stays perpetually weak and occupied though. If your desired outcome is for Gaza is to stand as an independent state (or as part of a Palestinian state) you would want it to be ruled by people who are not openly genocidal in both word and deed. It's too bad Israel weakened Fatah over the decades by propping up Hamas then isn't it. Kalit posted:In your opinion, is "shouting down and scaring off" not an intimidation tactic? You should reread the part you bolded.
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Oct 26, 2023 14:15
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Groovelord Neato posted:You should reread the part you bolded. But it's clear in the article that at least some of the students were Jewish, even if all of them might not have been. E VVV: Carmant posted:"We, students of Cooper Union, planned a peaceful protest to demand our institutions acknowledgement of the Israeli apartheid. This was in response to the school's one-sided stance and participation in the occupation of Palestine. We planned to peacefully protest outside the building before walking in and continuing our protest outside the president's office. We concluded our protest by calling out our demands through the hallways of the entire foundation building. When we reached the library, we were told that it was closed so we continued chanting outside the glass window of the library. Many different students of all backgrounds were in the library at the time. We would like to make it clear that our protest was not targeting any individual students or faculty, but the institution itself. We would like to reiterate that we DO NOT under any circumstance condone antisemitism and many members of the protest were Jewish." They should have addressed why they were banging on the door(s) of the library, which is much different than "continued chanting outside the glass window of the library", IMO. Kalit fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Oct 26, 2023 |
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Oct 26, 2023 14:18
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Mister Fister posted:The Cooper Union had a pro-palestine demonstration and they decided to head towards the school's library to protest jewish students there. They forced their way past security and the librarians had to lock the doors for the student's safety as they were chanting and banging on the doors. Police later escorted the jewish kids to safety. Not exactly sure how intimidating jewish american kids is supposed to bring peace to the middle east. quote:"We, students of Cooper Union, planned a peaceful protest to demand our institutions acknowledgement of the Israeli apartheid. This was in response to the school's one-sided stance and participation in the occupation of Palestine. We planned to peacefully protest outside the building before walking in and continuing our protest outside the president's office. We concluded our protest by calling out our demands through the hallways of the entire foundation building. When we reached the library, we were told that it was closed so we continued chanting outside the glass window of the library. Many different students of all backgrounds were in the library at the time. We would like to make it clear that our protest was not targeting any individual students or faculty, but the institution itself. We would like to reiterate that we DO NOT under any circumstance condone antisemitism and many members of the protest were Jewish." Directly from the article you posted and by far the most reasonable assumption. If you really think a bunch of college kids were banging down the door of the library to do a pogrom you're totally delusional.
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Oct 26, 2023 14:20
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American campuses sound almost as dangerous as campuses in Gaza.
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Oct 26, 2023 14:31
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Kalit posted:But it's clear in the article that at least some of the students were Jewish, even if all of them might not have been. Sounds like they're singing/chanting and doing rhythmic banging on the doors? It's just an attention getting strategy I imagine. I don't know why people at protests do all the things they do, not a big protester here, but immediately jumping to the worst and most violent interpretation of any action is a pretty typical move when you're trying to shut down dissenting speech and that's what's going to happen with this story too.
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Oct 26, 2023 14:33
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Where did you read that Netanyahu rejected any concessions with settlement freezes? The Palestinians don't want "something", they have very specific demands, absolutely no guarantee that the Saudis care about those demands, and (most importantly) decades of experience telling them that the Israelis have absolutely no intention whatsoever of making real concessions on those demands. A vague "something" isn't worth poo poo to them, because they have a lot of experience with third-party nations cutting deals with Israel that give them only minor concessions that the Israelis quickly betray and withdraw, while the third-party nation looks the other way and does nothing. And the question isn't whether we should be skeptical of any deal. It's whether the Palestinians are obligated to put literally any faith at all in a Saudi-Israel deal. They've been providing social services since long before they took control of Gaza. In fact, their social services wing is a major part of how they were able to gain political power in the first place. They built a solid reputation among the people because they often provided better social services than the corrupt and ineffectual PA did. When you want a celebrity's real opinions, you look at their social media, not their actions, because their actions will be moderated by handlers and agents but their social media will post their unfiltered thoughts. When you want a political organization's real goals, you look at their actions, not their social media, because their social media will be political posturing while their actions will tend to pursue their actual goals. And while Hamas statements and social media will go on about how they'll never recognize Israel as a negotiating partner and will never accept anything less than its full destruction, their actual actions (as well as leaks and private conversations with leadership members) show that they're actually quite eager to come to a long-term negotiated solution with Israel, though only once they've secured sufficient negotiating leverage (via violence) to force actual concessions from the Israelis. Collapsing Farts posted:Hamas has not had elections since they won in 2006 have they? Hamas, as a single political party, can't hold elections on their own. The Palestinian Authority has not held elections since 2006, due to disagreements between the two major Palestinian factions and interference by Israel. Fatah's interest in holding elections vanishes whenever Hamas is doing well in the polls, and Hamas doesn't trust that Fatah is interested in real free and fair elections after the poo poo they pulled in 2006-7. Meanwhile, Israel exerts considerable political pressure on both sides to prevent any sort of agreement between them, and also has the ability to prevent Palestinians in Israeli-controlled territory from participating in elections that don't suit Israeli needs. Randalor posted:I'm still confused about the prophecy of Isaiah part. Is Bibi claiming he is the messiah? Because I'm pretty sure that's the only bit of Isaiah's prophecy that someone who didn't believe Jesus was the messiah could argue didn't happen. Isaiah's name is also associated with prophecies of the return of exiled Jews to the land of Israel and God destroying the enemies of the Jews. Crazy Joe Wilson posted:They said they'd start with the 1967 borders but that they would never recognize Israel and still plan on 'liberating' all of historic Palestine. Yes, just as the Korean Armistice was a temporary ceasefire between North and South Korea, each of whom would never recognize each other and still planned on 'liberating' the entire Korean peninsula. Hamas has been pretty clear about the fact that whatever their official rhetoric says, they are extremely interested in negotiating and know full well that they will have to settle for a lot less than "everything". This distinguishes them from Israel, who have been quite adamant about refusing to negotiate with Hamas and quite clear about the fact that they ultimately intend to annex as much of Palestinian territory as they can get without accepting the actual Palestinians into Israel. This is why, for example, the Palestinians often insist on settlement freezes as a condition for negotiation - it wouldn't actually make any sense to continue expanding the settlements if Israel was ready to accept giving up some of the currently-settled territory, and Israel's refusal to do even that much casts serious doubt on their willingness to concede on that critical issue.
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Oct 26, 2023 14:41
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Kalit posted:In your opinion, is "shouting down and scaring off" not an intimidation tactic? I don't think he said it wasn't. Sounded like he was saying that whether intimidating someone is good or bad depends on who they are and why you're doing it.
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Oct 26, 2023 14:41
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Carmant posted:Sounds like they're singing/chanting and doing rhythmic banging on the doors? It's just an attention getting strategy I imagine. I don't know why people at protests do all the things they do, not a big protester here, but immediately jumping to the worst and most violent interpretation of any action is a pretty typical move when you're trying to shut down dissenting speech and that's what's going to happen with this story too. Eh... if you flipped the script and have the roles reverse, I would say that it would also be real bad (well, hell, worse). Which I think is a good thing to take a step back and contemplate. In my opinion, being inside of a place with angry sounding people outside banging on the doors is frightening, not "oh, it's a peaceful group of people who just want their voice heard and are hitting the door to the rhythm". Of course, maybe I just scare easier than you.
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Oct 26, 2023 14:41
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Kalit posted:Eh... if you flipped the script and have the roles reverse, I would say that it would also be real bad (well, hell, worse). Which I think is a good thing to take a step back and contemplate. Ok, it's scary, but there's no evidence that the group specifically came there to target Jewish students or that anyone intended on committing any acts of violence, which is what is being heavily insinuated by people who are sharing this story.
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Oct 26, 2023 14:46
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i think there's no evidence they were targeting jewish students or even knew jewish students were in that library. outside of that it's pretty standard protester behavior. we should probably not waste any more posts on it since absolutely nothing happened.
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Oct 26, 2023 14:47
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Carmant posted:Directly from the article you posted and by far the most reasonable assumption. If you really think a bunch of college kids were banging down the door of the library to do a pogrom you're totally delusional. Yeah i'm delusional to think that a mob who pushed past security (who was trying to stop them) is totally not a security threat. Clearly the librarians who locked the doors to protect the students and the police who had to escort the students out were overreacting. Mobs have never gotten out of control in the history of mobs.
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Oct 26, 2023 14:47
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Mister Fister posted:In some alternate reality, these students are physically attacked and some goons will justify it as 'praxis'. This poo poo is not ok. Maybe in that reality Israel isn't levelling Gaza and killing thousands of civilians, making weird hypothetical assault scenarios worth speculating about. Brucolac fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Oct 26, 2023 |
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Oct 26, 2023 14:51
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Groovelord Neato posted:"We will accept the '67 borders with Jerusalem as the capital" is negotiating. They did it specifically for that reason. Recognizing Israel is who cares we know they're never going to destroy Israel. Their stance isn’t we’ll accept the ‘67 borders with a permanent two state solution, it’s we’ll accept the ‘67 borders in exchange for a ten year truce as a proxy for recognizing Israel.
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Oct 26, 2023 14:52
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A ten-year truce is effectively permanent. The odds of the Palestinian side wanting to continue the conflict after ten years of respected peace with a contiguous state is very low if not zero.
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Oct 26, 2023 14:54
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According to the article quote:Police say there were no injuries, arrests or property damage, and that this was a planned demonstration. The NYPD is reviewing surveillance video. If they were violent you'd think they would have done something...violent at some point. Unless they were saving up a spirit bomb that only works in libraries I guess?
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Oct 26, 2023 14:56
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Mister Fister posted:Yeah i'm delusional to think that a mob who pushed past security (who was trying to stop them) is totally not a security threat. Clearly the librarians who locked the doors to protect the students and the police who had to escort the students out were overreacting. Mobs have never gotten out of control in the history of mobs. Is there a particular campus protest you think this would relate to? Do you have any examples of a campus protest in the US from the last…50 years that reflect what you’re trying to envision here? Because this is ridiculous face-above-a-flashlight posting from where I’m sitting.
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Oct 26, 2023 14:58
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It is perfectly understandable to be startled by a protest, they tend to be big and loud and disruptive, by design. It is wildly irresponsible journalism to report that pro-Palestine protestors are trying to pogrom Jews off their campuses based on what appears to be nothing more than "there was a protest."
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Oct 26, 2023 15:01
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