|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Nov 5, 2023 |
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 17:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 00:09 |
|
|
We have the intelligence to prove it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSE38xjMLqE
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 17:42
|
|
|
Stringent posted:I honestly think they're laughing at the US et al that are still buying this poo poo. They're just dabbing on them. Such utter chumps that they actually think it's noble to analyze blatant bullshit as part of ~seeking the truth~
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 17:44
|
|
|
Israel's putting out faked phone calls and 3d renders from fiverr but it's the Gaza Ministry of Health we have to question.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 17:44
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:It is insane how lazy they're getting with this poo poo.  at "Hamas-ISIS". How long has he been using that?edit: "ISIS is going totally HAMas" Serotoning fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Oct 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 17:45
|
|
|
Its moments like these that make you realize that sometimes political leaders are not that bright. "We didn't bomb the hospital, it was a defective Hamas rocket, and here are our arguments, video, and expert analysis to prove it" OK, well there is still some uncertainty and other experts have cast some doubt onto your story, but your theory is maybe plausible.... though I'm not sure why it matters in the bigger picture, and everyone is starting to move on to more pressing issues in this conflic... "oh, and even if we did bomb the hospital, its still OK because we know that they have dug themselves into a frightening warren of terror-tunnels underneath the hospital!" Wait what..... I thought you said you didn't bomb it?
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 17:47
|
|
|
Rigel posted:Its moments like these that make you realize that sometimes political leaders are not that bright. Occam's razor is sharp af yo.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 17:49
|
|
|
Rigel posted:Its moments like these that make you realize that sometimes political leaders are not that bright. I got bad news for you. The al-Ahli Hospital was the one Israel bombed and then clumsily released a bunch of fake evidence to claim they didn't bomb it. This is a completely different hospital that they're trying to justify bombing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 17:50
|
|
|
Rigel posted:Its moments like these that make you realize that sometimes political leaders are not that bright. This was my thought at first but we are talking about different hospitals. There's al-Ahli Arab Hospital that they claim they didn't bomb, and al-Shifa Hospital that they're saying is on top of a Hamas base.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 17:51
|
|
|
Rigel posted:Its moments like these that make you realize that sometimes political leaders are not that bright. I don’t think this points to them being dumb. I think it points to a good understanding of how information works in the age of the 24 hour news cycle, sadly. Though I say this as a British person, the leaders of any other nation seem genius in comparison to the barely literate people we’ve been electing recently.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 17:52
|
|
|
Pvt. Parts posted:
Does it "matter" if an airstrike on an apartment building kills 12 or 13 kids? Of course it matters, every life matters, for example it matters a great deal to the family of that 13th kid! But is the 13th death relevant to a question of, say, whether it was wrong to blow up that building in the first place, no it's not. Killing 12 kids is wrong too.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 17:52
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 17:53
|
|
|
Rigel posted:Its moments like these that make you realize that sometimes political leaders are not that bright. It’s a toolkit. Some people who support Israel can take the parts of the story that say hospitals deserved to be bombed. Some people can take the parts of the narrative that say it was actually Palestinians that bombed the hospital. Some can choose to go with the narratives disputing that that many even died at the hospital bombings and that the Palestinians are crisis actors, so it’s irrelevant who bombed any given hospital or church or mosque (if it was bombed at all). And some can combine these contradictory narratives as they like, moment to moment or at the same time. The important thing is that the narrative keeps advancing that it’s not actually bad to bomb Gaza, that the people living there do not have the same human rights a westerner has, and that Israel is simultaneously invincible, all knowing, but also cruelly and unfairly wounded in a way demanding retribution to the Palestinian people as a whole.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 17:56
|
|
|
Pvt. Parts posted:
After one of the kibbutz attacks they claimed an ISIS flag they recovered was carried by the Hamas operatives and claimed some of them had ISIS flags on their uniforms despite Hamas being in opposition to ISIS. It's desperate propaganda.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 17:56
|
|
|
Hamelekim posted:At some point countries in the region will have to take military action against Israel when Israel goes into Gaza and the deaths increase. The people in those countries will riot and threaten to overthrow their autocratic rulers if they don't. A military intervention against Israel would be suicide due to nuclear weapons and the Samson Option. The death toll from an Israeli SLBM attack would make the current atrocities in Gaza look insignificant by comparison.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 17:57
|
|
|
mannerup posted:He says that the hospital’s energy infrastructure is also used by Hamas’s underground base. In that case they should kill the power of every gaza hospital. disconnect every baby incubator so that Hamas's underground lair has no power for their rocket manufacturing factories. As they won't be needing them, Israel could take the babies out of the incubators, take the incubators and leave the children to die on the cold floor. Marenghi fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Oct 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 17:59
|
|
|
Pvt. Parts posted:Intent when it comes to truth-seeking should not matter, no. Truth seeking is in and of itself a valid intent first of all. That's still assuming the intent is truth-seeking at all. Biden and the US state department aren't actually interested in the Gaza death toll; that's an inconvenient fact they'd rather ignore, so they claim to be skeptic as an excuse to dismiss it. If they thought it mattered, and sincerely thought the Ministry of Health was an unreliable source, they would make an effort to independently verify the numbers. There's a concrete difference between skepticism and denial, and you're doing science a disservice by pretending there isn't.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 17:59
|
|
|
Stringent posted:I honestly think they're laughing at the US et al that are still buying this poo poo. They're just dabbing on them. While the animation might but a pile of poo poo (where's the shaft Sadam is hiding in), I thought it was common knowledge that Shifa was Hamas' de-facto Gaza HQ, or at least de facto HQ during times of conflict. Fatah and Hamas fought one of their battles there after the pullout, and there's a PBS thing that time period too. There's an Amnesty Intl. report from the mid 2010's that mentions some bits like how Hamas used it as a torture and execution site for collaborators.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 17:59
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:I think you're having trouble understanding the difference between whether something "matters" in any context, versus whether it's relevant to a particular conclusion. I agree, but when you use someone's prying for more information, especially when that information may not act in favor of your held view or argument, as a suspicion of their allegiances, bar none, then you put yourself in a bad place in relation to truth IMO.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 18:00
|
|
|
Rigel posted:Its moments like these that make you realize that sometimes political leaders are not that bright. But it works for such a large amount of people.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 18:01
|
|
|
Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:While the animation might but a pile of poo poo (where's the shaft Sadam is hiding in), I thought it was common knowledge that Shifa was Hamas' de-facto Gaza HQ, or at least de facto HQ during times of conflict. Fatah and Hamas fought one of their battles there after the pullout, and there's a PBS thing that time period too. There's an Amnesty Intl. report from the mid 2010's that mentions some bits like how Hamas used it as a torture and execution site for collaborators. A quick googling of, "shifa amnesty international" isn't turning up anything, can you find a link? I'd like to read up on it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 18:02
|
|
|
Pvt. Parts posted:I agree, but when you use someone's prying for more information, especially when that information may not act in favor of your held view or argument, as a suspicion of their allegiances, bar none, then you put yourself in a bad place in relation to truth IMO. I agree, but I am also not doing that, so I'm not sure what the relevance is. I have never said that simply asking for information is a suspicious act, bar none. If that's what you got from what I said, you should go back and re-read.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 18:04
|
|
|
mannerup posted:to add context around that tweet, they aren't talking about the hospital that has been argued about ad ad nauseam in this thread. heres an article on their rationale. last sentence of the article tells you all you need to know Did anyone ask the IDF spokesperson if they had evidence pointing to Miles Mayhem being implicated? Hordak? Megatron? Cobra Commander?
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 18:07
|
|
|
Stringent posted:A quick googling of, "shifa amnesty international" isn't turning up anything, can you find a link? I'd like to read up on it. Was curious myself, found this: https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/hamas-tortured-and-killed-palestinian-collaborators-during-gaza-conflict-new-report Amnesty international posted:As well as carrying out unlawful killings, others abducted by Hamas were subjected to torture, including severe beatings with truncheons, gun butts, hoses and wire or held in stress positions. Some were interrogated and tortured or otherwise ill-treated in a disused outpatient’s clinic within the grounds of Gaza City’s main al-Shifa hospital. At least three people arrested during the conflict accused of “collaboration” died in custody. There ist a 44 page report attached, cannot read it on the phone.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 18:07
|
|
|
Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:While the animation might but a pile of poo poo (where's the shaft Sadam is hiding in), I thought it was common knowledge that Shifa was Hamas' de-facto Gaza HQ, or at least de facto HQ during times of conflict. Fatah and Hamas fought one of their battles there after the pullout, and there's a PBS thing that time period too. There's an Amnesty Intl. report from the mid 2010's that mentions some bits like how Hamas used it as a torture and execution site for collaborators. It is not in fact "common knowledge", and the amnesty international report notes that they used an "disused outpatient’s clinic" which doesn't exactly comport with the idea that it's their HQ in Gaza. (One would assume they would have actual facilities for such a task if that were the case, and not just use an unused building - but that's a personal opinion) A doctor who worked in Al Shifa "[rejected] claims by the Israeli government that the Shifa was used as a base by Hamas officials and militants in the knowledge that Israel would not attack the hospital. ... “I have never seen any activities in the Shifa that would violate the Geneva conventions. But I didn’t explore every corner of the large hospital compound. If I saw anything inside the Shifa that in my opinion violated the Geneva conventions and, should I say, the ‘holiness’ of a hospital, I would have left.” " e: Basically if there's actual strong evidence that there's a secret Hamas lair in Al-Shifa, no one has provided it TGLT fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Oct 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 18:14
|
|
|
karasu posted:Was curious myself, found this: So there's two stories of Hamas conducting executions near the hospital, but the original clam was, quote:I thought it was common knowledge that Shifa was Hamas' de-facto Gaza HQ So I was hoping for more sourcing on that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 18:18
|
|
|
Stringent posted:A quick googling of, "shifa amnesty international" isn't turning up anything, can you find a link? I'd like to read up on it. A summary, there's more in the report https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/ There's a link to the formal report at the top but big  warning for the report itself you can download in whatever language. It's about the extrajudicial abduction, torture, and killing of collaborators (or accused), complete with all the photo evidence. The Shifa outpatient clinic was used as something like a CIA black site.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 18:25
|
|
|
I don't see how that's connected to the underground supervillain lair Israel is claiming exists.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 18:29
|
|
|
Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:A summary, there's more in the report Every reference to Al-Shifa I read in here was to the morgue. Is there any reference to it being a de-facto Hamas headquarters? Stringent fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Oct 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 18:34
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:I don't see how that's connected to the underground supervillain lair Israel is claiming exists. As I said the animation is dumb, but that place has been used with regularity as a Hamas strongpoint. The original PBS documentary from the Fatah/Hamas war is unfindable now, called 'Gaza E.R', but the reporting on the report still exists. The Washington Post made the de facto HQ statement as far back as 2014. https://web.archive.org/web/2014072...445d_story.html
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 18:44
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 18:47
|
|
|
I hope the IDF gets wrecked in their attempt at a ground invasion.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 18:48
|
|
|
Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:While the animation might but a pile of poo poo (where's the shaft Sadam is hiding in), I thought it was common knowledge that Shifa was Hamas' de-facto Gaza HQ, or at least de facto HQ during times of conflict. Fatah and Hamas fought one of their battles there after the pullout, and there's a PBS thing that time period too. There's an Amnesty Intl. report from the mid 2010's that mentions some bits like how Hamas used it as a torture and execution site for collaborators. Not particularly, no. While Israel has long insisted that this was the case, as far as I know it's never been independently confirmed. There have been cases of Hamas militants operating inside the hospital for limited periods, but so far there's absolutely no public evidence that their main HQ is there. That said, Israel does know for a fact that there's a bunker beneath Al-Shifa Hospital. They know this because they're the ones who built it! Per Haaretz, the hospital was extensively remodeled by the Israeli occupation authorities in the 1980s, and one of the additions made at that time was a large concrete basement complex which would be a perfect shelter from bombing. quote:Senior Hamas officials in Gaza are hiding out in a "bunker" built by Israel, intelligence officials suspect: Many are believed to be in the basements of the Shifa Hospital complex in Gaza City, which was refurbished during Israel's occupation of the Gaza Strip. There's no publicly available evidence that Hamas has made that bunker their headquarters, but if Israel bombs the entire hospital into rubble I'm sure they'll find some evidence that at least one Hamas militant had been in the hospital basement at one point. After all, if you step back and think about it, it's actually not super unusual to find soldiers at a hospital during a war! Combatants need medical treatment too, after all.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 18:50
|
|
|
Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:As I said the animation is dumb, but that place has been used with regularity as a Hamas strongpoint. The original PBS documentary from the Fatah/Hamas war is unfindable now, called 'Gaza E.R', but the reporting on the report still exists. The only mention of al-Shifa in that article is, quote:At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority’s health minister, who represents the crumbling “unity government” in the West Bank city of Ramallah. The minister was turned away before he reached the hospital, which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 18:51
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:The Palestinians don't want "something", they have very specific demands, absolutely no guarantee that the Saudis care about those demands, and (most importantly) decades of experience telling them that the Israelis have absolutely no intention whatsoever of making real concessions on those demands. A vague "something" isn't worth poo poo to them, because they have a lot of experience with third-party nations cutting deals with Israel that give them only minor concessions that the Israelis quickly betray and withdraw, while the third-party nation looks the other way and does nothing. And the question isn't whether we should be skeptical of any deal. It's whether the Palestinians are obligated to put literally any faith at all in a Saudi-Israel deal. You are correct and I agree! Palestinians don't want something they want real world policy that finally ends decades of abuse, violence and poverty. For the second time, I am merely paraphrasing as I wasn't getting into the details of any deal as I was responding to another poster stating there aren't more than two options. It's simply not true and if you take even a quick glance at Axios which you used a source earlier you can plainly see that there have been talks in the background for the last year between all three parties so much that Palestinian president and his staff have been involved compared to during the Trump Administration where they weren't invited or didn't even bother participating. Of course, who knows if anything good will come out of it. Nobody knows expect the parties involved but we know it wasn't completely smoke and mirrors. I completely concur that past deals haven't gone well and the parties involved who are in much better positions have failed to deliver but I would much better have even the worst dialog than an actual fully fledged all out war of never ending conflict and suffering. Palestinians should absolutely be the priority and while this is my opinion I think anyone who even remotely cares about the world around them should at least little pay attention and a degree of skepticism is justified. Main Paineframe posted:They've been providing social services since long before they took control of Gaza. In fact, their social services wing is a major part of how they were able to gain political power in the first place. They built a solid reputation among the people because they often provided better social services than the corrupt and ineffectual PA did. We can judge parties based off of what they say and what they do. It is a fact that Hamas was literally created for the destruction of Israeli and the establishment of an authoritarian Islamic State. Doing goods things makes no difference when you are carefully orchestrating organized violence against innocent civilians in the most cruel way possible while the PA and others are trying desperately to un-gently caress decades of distrust, searching for some kind of solution that doesn't involve violence or at least maintain the weak peace that exists so that maybe just maybe future generations just might have something to work and avoid an all out war that would immediately undo decades of progress. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Oct 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 18:52
|
|
|
Even if we were to grant it was a de-facto HQ in 2014 the year is 2023. There's a reason Israel is posting laughable 3d renders and more faked phone calls as "intelligence".Crosby B. Alfred posted:We can judge parties based off of what they say and what they do. It is a fact that Hamas was literally created for the destruction of Israeli and the establishment of an authoritarian Islamic State. Doing goods things makes no difference when you are carefully orchestrating organized violence against innocent civilians in the most cruel way possible while the PA and others are trying desperately to un-gently caress decades of distrust, trying to find some kind of solution that doesn't involve violence or at least maintain the weak peace that exists so that maybe just maybe future generations just might have something to work and avoid an all out war that would immediately undo decades of progress. Hamas grew out of a charity organization that was radicalized by Israeli brutality during the First Intifada. I don't know if it was you or someone else but you or they keep posting as if what you're saying doesn't apply to the major parties of world powers. Our governing parties are responsible for far more death and destruction than a hundred thousand (million+ really) Hamases yet would you deny the domestic policies of the Democratic Party exist? Likud has done far more evil than Hamas would you pretend they have no domestic policy? Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Oct 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 18:53
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/kakasloi/status/1717940644973326631 Things have hugely escalated over the past hour 
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 19:16
|
|
|
These all seem like fine reasons for troops to investigate the hospital during a ground invasion and terrible reasons to drop 100 JDAMs on it and kill every doctor, patient, and cowering civilian inside. I wonder which route the Israelis will choose!
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 19:16
|
|
|
Tuna-Fish posted:I think you are massively overestimating the level of military power Hezbollah has available, and their capability to deter an invasion. To put it simply, soon with two carriers available, US air power will be able to turn any Hezbollah invasion into mincemeat in short order, liberating most of IDF to concentrate on Gaza. As for West Bank, there is a reason they armed militias and evacuated 200k people. BougieBitch posted:I think it's reasonable to say that Israel isn't going to be existentially threatened by any of this, but it CAN be destabilized, and the initial attacks out of Gaza were largely only possible because the IDF was more worried about the West Bank - it's easy to see a way that shifting attention to the combination of Gaza and the West Bank makes their other borders weaker. In my view, it doesn't matter who would come out ahead because it would be absolutely awful, brutally violent for everyone involved so much that no one would really win. While unlikely, there is very real risk the conflict could blow up into a entire regional one pulling in other groups like Hezbollah or Iran. Israel would likely be a victor but the cost would be absolutely immense with even more death and destruction than we already have today. Current negotiations would immediately cease, reset back to zero, any kind of Palestinian solution put on pause and the whole region would lose decades of fragile progress. I don't know how else to emphasis this but an off ramp is desperately needed. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Oct 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 19:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 00:09 |
|
|
Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:As I said the animation is dumb, but that place has been used with regularity as a Hamas strongpoint. The original PBS documentary from the Fatah/Hamas war is unfindable now, called 'Gaza E.R', but the reporting on the report still exists. The article mentions Hamas leaders being in the hallways. Also the author of that article has been suspended by the Washington Post multiple times for plagiarism
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2023 19:25
|
|
