Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010

Irony Be My Shield posted:

I'm sure that taking out Hamas will be inconvenient for Israel. They will suffer casualties, their diplomatic standing will be damaged and their economy will take a hit (although the US is likely to have them covered there). This would explain why they have never launched a full-scale invasion of Gaza before.

However, I really do not think that any of those costs are remotely high enough to deter Israel at this point. Within the country Hamas' attack is widely seen as an attempted second Holocaust. I do not think there is any cost that's high enough to convince the Israeli public or politicians that they can tolerate the architects of that massacre continuing to rule the Gaza strip (or indeed, continuing to be alive). And even if Hamas inflicts a heavy price on the IDF I do not think there is any credible scenario where they defeat the 360,000 soldiers Israel has gathered, nor any chance that other nations decide to directly intervene against the nuclear-armed state which has the full backing of the United States. Hamas cannot be saved, and frankly does not deserve saving.

I think the best case scenario (which to be clear, still massively sucks) would be Israel being convinced/pressured into a plan that removes Hamas from power and takes out their leadership, but which allows civilians to flee - a ceasefire combined with a genuine opportunity for Gazans to evacuate to somewhere, rather than just being vaguely told to avoid half of the strip with no instruction of where to go or what route to take. This would still be an absolutely horrible outcome that could result in permanent displacement but it's still better than the current trajectory of the war, which is tens or hundreds of thousands of Gazan casualties.

If Israel was capable of destroying Hamas, they would have done it long ago. They did once support Hamas to some extent to counterbalance the influence of peaceful groups, but they never wanted Hamas to win the elections in 2006, nor did they want Hamas to retain control of Gaza in the ensuing civil war. They've been trying quite seriously to destroy Hamas (or at least knock them out of power in Gaza) ever since.

The problem is the same one that the US has had to deal with so many times: military force alone is not capable of completely destroying an insurgent movement relying on guerilla tactics and asymmetrical warfare. That's why Israel pulled out so quickly in its previous invasions of Gaza: the leadership were well aware that a ground invasion was largely pointless, they just sent in the troops to score political points and then pulled out before the troops took enough casualties to cause real political damage.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Zephro
Nov 23, 2000

I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...
https://twitter.com/MohanadHageAli/status/1717489376802807889
https://twitter.com/MohanadHageAli/status/1717489377725595752
https://twitter.com/MohanadHageAli/status/1717489378769920175


https://twitter.com/MohanadHageAli/status/1717571789465768124

The author of the tweets X's is a fellow at the Malcolm H. Kerr Carnegie Middle East Center

daslog
Dec 10, 2008

#essereFerrari

Main Paineframe posted:

If Israel was capable of destroying Hamas, they would have done it long ago. They did once support Hamas to some extent to counterbalance the influence of peaceful groups, but they never wanted Hamas to win the elections in 2006, nor did they want Hamas to retain control of Gaza in the ensuing civil war. They've been trying quite seriously to destroy Hamas (or at least knock them out of power in Gaza) ever since.

The problem is the same one that the US has had to deal with so many times: military force alone is not capable of completely destroying an insurgent movement relying on guerilla tactics and asymmetrical warfare. That's why Israel pulled out so quickly in its previous invasions of Gaza: the leadership were well aware that a ground invasion was largely pointless, they just sent in the troops to score political points and then pulled out before the troops took enough casualties to cause real political damage.

It won't be any different this time except for more people probably die for no good reason.

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang

Irony Be My Shield posted:

Within the country Hamas' attack is widely seen as an attempted second Holocaust.

This just goes to show how insanely adrift from reality Israel's perspective has become.

quote:

I think the best case scenario (which to be clear, still massively sucks) would be Israel being convinced/pressured into a plan that removes Hamas from power and takes out their leadership, but which allows civilians to flee - a ceasefire combined with a genuine opportunity for Gazans to evacuate to somewhere, rather than just being vaguely told to avoid half of the strip with no instruction of where to go or what route to take. This would still be an absolutely horrible outcome that could result in permanent displacement but it's still better than the current trajectory of the war, which is tens or hundreds of thousands of Gazan casualties.

Genocide is not a best case scenario.

Hamelekim
Feb 25, 2006

And another thing... if global warming is real. How come it's so damn cold?
Ramrod XTreme
The Palestinian Ministry of Health put out a comprehensive list of the dead with name, age, and their ID number. Over 7000 dead with almost 3000 children dead. I wonder if this will change the language being used by the President in the US. I'm guessing it will be dismissed no matter what.

https://twitter.com/AseelAlBajeh/status/1717588222845354231

ronya
Nov 8, 2010

I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

Main Paineframe posted:

The problem is the same one that the US has had to deal with so many times: military force alone is not capable of completely destroying an insurgent movement relying on guerilla tactics and asymmetrical warfare. That's why Israel pulled out so quickly in its previous invasions of Gaza: the leadership were well aware that a ground invasion was largely pointless, they just sent in the troops to score political points and then pulled out before the troops took enough casualties to cause real political damage.

Asymmetric warfare doesn't necessarily grant one immunity to sufficient brutality:

ronya posted:

An observation:

quote:

The Tamil Tigers, who controlled the majority of the territory in the northern and eastern provinces of Sri Lanka at the peak of their strength, responded to state violence with ruthless techniques of warfare, weaponizing human bodies through the systematic deployment of suicide bombers. Frequently targeting civilians, over the years they managed to kill several politicians, including the prime minister of India in 1991 and the president of Sri Lanka in 1993. The Tigers also massacred Sinhalese and Muslims living in villages bordering the front lines of the areas they controlled, while forcefully recruiting child soldiers from the Tamil population.

After four failed rounds of peace talks, an unsuccessful deployment of Indian peacekeeping forces, and a cease-fire agreement that lasted from 2002 until 2005, sporadic fighting resumed. By January 2008, the government declared a full military operation against the Tigers. Blasting its way through the northeast tip of the island, the Sri Lankan military slowly regained control of most of the regions previously held by the rebel group, while the civilian population that either sympathized with the Tigers or were afraid of the government forces moved deeper and deeper into the small swath of land still controlled by the Tamil guerrillas—an area characterized by the government as the “Tiger cage.”

At one point, the Sri Lankan military unilaterally declared the creation of three no-fire zones within the cage (including the one mentioned in the intercepted cable), urging the civilian population to gather in these zones by dropping leaflets from planes and notifying them through the radio and loudspeakers. As an estimated 330,000 internally displaced people assembled in these zones, the United Nations erected makeshift camps and, together with several humanitarian organizations, provided food and medical assistance to the desperate population—not unlike the safe areas the U.N. had created in Bosnia in 1993.

The Tamil Tigers also retreated to the no-fire zones on the coastal strip, where they had prepared a complex network of bunkers and fortifications and where they ultimately mounted their final battle. Like other instances of guerrilla insurgency in other conflicts, they positioned their artillery batteries among the civilians and prevented many of them from leaving the area once the shelling began, in some cases shooting those who tried to exit the zone.

While the Sri Lankan military claimed that it was engaged in “humanitarian operations” aimed at “liberating the civilians,” it was in fact reclaiming the northeast tip of the island that was still in Tamil hands. An analysis of satellite images as well as numerous testimonies revealed that the Sri Lankan military continuously pounded the enclosed land with mortar and artillery fire, transforming the designated no-fire zones into killing fields. Between 10,000 to 40,000 caged-in civilians perished in the so-called safe zones, while thousands more were severely injured, often lying for hours or days on the ground without receiving medical attention because virtually every hospital—whether permanent or makeshift—had been hit by artillery.

The Sri Lankan civil war was subjected to international legal scrutiny. Following the government’s defeat of the Tamil Tigers, a panel of experts appointed by the U.N. secretary-general published a damning report accusing both the Tamil Tigers and the Sri Lankan government of having carried out war crimes and crimes against humanity. In addition to charges of murder, mutilation, cruel treatment, and torture, the panel accused the Tamil Tigers of using civilians as a human buffer and killing civilians attempting to flee the no-fire zones. The report charged the Sri Lankan military with intentional, indiscriminate, and disproportionate attacks on civilians, starvation and denial of humanitarian relief, and attacks on medical and humanitarian objects.

from Gordon and Perugini's Human Shields: A History of People in the Line of Fire , ch14 Scale: Human Shielding in Sri Lanka and the Principle of Proportionality, where the authors are sharply critical of the opinion of the former chief prosecutor of the Sierra Leone Tribunal that civilians killed in the course of being used as human shields should have a diminished value in proportionality calculations in weighing whether civilian deaths from military operations are 'excessive' relative to the military gains

outside of customary international humanitarian jurisprudence, I daresay the most important element in the Sri Lankan case is that the nationalist movement was crushed successfully and has been moribund since - if it promptly flared up again for another generation, observers would rather be less tolerant of the argument advanced in Colombo. It remains to be seen if Israel can achieve such an outcome; I would be doubtful.

One might observe some qualitative similarities to ongoing events, certainly. Google Jeb Bush pointed out that Colombo was ultimately amenable to national unification because Sinhalese held a landslide majority of the population (and this was never really in doubt); that's not the case in I/P. It's also the case that the Colombo successfully ordered aid agencies out of LTTE-controlled areas and tightly excluded journalists and media access to the ground, which was effective at cutting off support and limiting foreign anger (particularly in the post-War-on-Terror environment that was particularly harsh on such international funding). And of course the campaign there was launched on Colombo's terms, with prepared government forces and an unprepared LTTE, and not the other way around.

Viller
Jun 3, 2005

Proud opponent of Israeli terror and Jewish fascism!
Why are people so quick to believe anything the government says in Palestine? Honest question...

Are they not all Hamas entities? They have EVERYTHING to gain from exagerating or straight up lying...

Is the ministry of health somehow separate from the rest of the government? What am I not seeing here...

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang
As has been repeatedly shown, the Ministry of Health's numbers have been reliable for years in similar situations to the point that international bodies take them as such. Whenever they audit they find only minor discrepancies.

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

It seems reasonable to me that airstrikes in civilian areas are probably killing civilians.

You could quibble about exactly how many kids die when you drop an apartment building on their heads, but what's the point.

Unormal
Nov 16, 2004

Mod sass? This evening?! But the cakes aren't ready! THE CAKES!
Fun Shoe

Viller posted:

Why are people so quick to believe anything the government says in Palestine? Honest question...

Are they not all Hamas entities? They have EVERYTHING to gain from exagerating or straight up lying...

Is the ministry of health somehow separate from the rest of the government? What am I not seeing here...

When Netanyahu is saying "we have eliminated thousands of fighters" what reason would anyone have to not believe thousands of "not fighter" people are dead? They aren't in there doing door to door fighting. If they're killing "thousands of fighters" with bombing and artillery into a densely populated region, they're absolutely killing many times that in non-combatant casualties.

This list seems like a pretty plausible outcome for this kind of campaign, I don't see why anyone has any reason to doubt it except at the margins. i.e. maybe it's 6,000 instead of 7,000 but ok.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Viller posted:

Why are people so quick to believe anything the government says in Palestine? Honest question...

Are they not all Hamas entities? They have EVERYTHING to gain from exagerating or straight up lying...

Is the ministry of health somehow separate from the rest of the government? What am I not seeing here...

The Gazan Ministry of Health has had an excellent prior track record with reliably reporting deaths from prior IDF assaults on the Gaza Strip, with its numbers closely matching to those reported by independent observers like the UN. This is because Hamas is not just a terrorist organisation, but a national government, and it needs to know (and provide reliable data for its citizens on) who within its territory is alive or dead a lot more than it needs to exaggerate those numbers to appeal to the nonexistent sympathy of the countries that are funding the ongoing Palestinian genocide.

Nail Rat
Dec 29, 2000

You maniacs! You blew it up! God damn you! God damn you all to hell!!

Viller posted:

Why are people so quick to believe anything the government says in Palestine? Honest question...

Are they not all Hamas entities? They have EVERYTHING to gain from exagerating or straight up lying...

Is the ministry of health somehow separate from the rest of the government? What am I not seeing here...

Their numbers are based on death certificates from hospitals / morgues and have been shown to be accurate at the past. You need only look at the pictures of completely leveled neighborhoods in what is an area smaller and denser than the city of Chicago to understand the people who have not made it to morgues are probably a LOT higher than that number. It's not a tally that's a guess it's "these are the specific individuals who have been confirmed dead." All the people buried dead under rubble are not part of that figure. And it has to be a LOT.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014


Viller posted:

Why are people so quick to believe anything the government says in Palestine? Honest question...

Are they not all Hamas entities? They have EVERYTHING to gain from exagerating or straight up lying...

Is the ministry of health somehow separate from the rest of the government? What am I not seeing here...

This has been explained in several posts in the past couple pages. They gain nothing from exaggerating as nobody cares as I posted yesterday. We know how many people died in previous Israeli bombings and attacks and how much greater the bombings have been over the past few weeks.

Rigel
Nov 11, 2016

I understand the point that we shouldn't take everything Hamas says at face value, but a list of dead citizens is the sort of thing that can be quickly and embarrassingly debunked if it was a complete fabrication. So, probably accurate?

Zulily Zoetrope
Jun 1, 2011

Muldoon

Viller posted:

Why are people so quick to believe anything the government says in Palestine? Honest question...

Are they not all Hamas entities? They have EVERYTHING to gain from exagerating or straight up lying...

Is the ministry of health somehow separate from the rest of the government? What am I not seeing here...

this isn't the first time Israel has indiscriminately slaughtered civilians, and in every past instance the numbers have been independently verified

If they had ever lied about the numbers, we would be aware of it.

if anything, the numbers are far too low, because they don't count all the indirect deaths from things like lack of access to health care or potable water, nor all the bodies that have yet to be recovered since the bombing is still ongoing

Jaxyon
Mar 7, 2016
I’m just saying I would like to see a man beat a woman in a cage. Just to be sure.

Viller posted:

What am I not seeing here...

Gazans as human beings.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

Viller posted:

Are they not all Hamas entities? They have EVERYTHING to gain from exagerating or straight up lying...

Hamas is not just its military, and that's specifically why Hamas managed to beat the PA in the first place. It's not as simple as "Hamas forced the settlers to evacuate Gaza, and that was enough for them to win", they organized serious grassroots social programs and cultural institutions to legitimize themselves in the eyes of Palestinians. From the very start, their case against PA has been that they're significantly more competent than the cronies that Abbas surrounds himself with. To crosspost from a CSPAM thread:

gradenko_2000 posted:

fact-check: Hamas has done more for its constituents than the Democrat Party





Hamas and Civil Society in Gaza: Engaging the Islamist Social Sector

From the start, Hamas has fashioned itself as a serious government for the people. Maintaining professional institutions is a serious part of that, which is why they've bothered to have an institution whos reports are accurate within 5-10% of international efforts, rather than just saying "20 million Palestinians have just died!!!" like PA was wont to do:

quote:

On April 7, senior Palestinian official Saeb Erekat suggested to CNN that some 500 Palestinians had been killed in the camp. Five days later, when the fighting stopped, PA Secretary Ahmed Abdel Rahman told UPI that the number was in the thousands, hinting, along with other Palestinian figures, that Israel had snatched bodies, buried Palestinians in mass graves and under the rubble of ruined buildings, and otherwise conducted on a scale compatible with genocide."

Stories of hundreds of civilians being killed in their homes as they were demolished spread throughout international media.[8] Subsequent investigations found no evidence to substantiate claims of a massacre, and official totals from Palestinian and Israeli sources confirmed between 52 and 54 Palestinians, including civilians, and 23 IDF soldiers as having been killed in the fighting.

This is entirely foreign to most US citizens because we only hear about Hamas through Israel, or through news on the conflict, and reinforced even in leftist circles by the "Netanyahu Created Hamas" talking point, but they are, in fact, a government. Not just terrorists in tunnels.

That's also something to keep in mind when Israel boasts about killing Hamas members; they often include bureaucrats.

Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Oct 26, 2023

Aztec Galactus
Sep 12, 2002

It's very cool that both major candidates for president like to uncritically repeat foreign propaganda

Hamelekim
Feb 25, 2006

And another thing... if global warming is real. How come it's so damn cold?
Ramrod XTreme

Zulily Zoetrope posted:

this isn't the first time Israel has indiscriminately slaughtered civilians, and in every past instance the numbers have been independently verified

If they had ever lied about the numbers, we would be aware of it.

if anything, the numbers are far too low, because they don't count all the indirect deaths from things like lack of access to health care or potable water, nor all the bodies that have yet to be recovered since the bombing is still ongoing

There are also the dead/dying who are still under the rubble. They cannot find/rescue them because they don't have the equipment to dig for them. Those people would either be missing or dead depending on whether anyone knows they were in there at the time.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
That last page is pretty relevant to another topic that often comes up in here, by the way; Gaza had an issue with families getting stuck in retaliatory cycles over perceived injustices that were never addressed by the ruling government. Hamas and the Islamic charities they [through the Muslim Brotherhood] embedded within, despite not yet being the government, would settle these disputes with reparations to the affected.

A cycle of violence settled by reliably following through with giving the bereaved what they're owed. Huh! Cool trick! I wonder if they'll try to offer that on a larger scale when they become the de-facto government! Perhaps in some form of long-term offer! Perhaps they could call it the Decade Spanning Agreement.

Collapsing Farts
Jun 29, 2018

💀
Hamas is poo poo and I hope the entirety of Hamas is destroyed

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014


Collapsing Farts posted:

Hamas is poo poo and I hope the entirety of Hamas is destroyed

It won't be sorry to be the one to burst your bubble.

theCalamity
Oct 23, 2010

Cry Havoc and let slip the Hogs of War

Hamelekim posted:

The Palestinian Ministry of Health put out a comprehensive list of the dead with name, age, and their ID number. Over 7000 dead with almost 3000 children dead. I wonder if this will change the language being used by the President in the US. I'm guessing it will be dismissed no matter what.

https://twitter.com/AseelAlBajeh/status/1717588222845354231

Biden et al probably won’t change their stance

https://twitter.com/joshuaphilll/status/1717616124471218364

It’s nice to see our liberal administration engage in genocide denial

Argas
Jan 13, 2008
SRW Fanatic




That's been pretty standard.

Nonsense
Jan 26, 2007

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1717279204130037806

I wonder why the world sees you as the monster rather than Palestinians?

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang
As 7 October was apparently at least as bad as one hundred 9/11s, the one democracy in the Middle-East is bringing in an equally proportional equivalent of the Free Speech Zones. Live fire against internal protest.

https://twitter.com/YaelBerda/status/1717616644204216492

I would say "I doubt Israeli police will fire on Jewish citizens", but recent witness statements have at the very least opened that up to some doubt.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
Regardless of how you feel about Hamas, there are undeniable facts about them:
- They have respected just about every ceasefire they've signed off on, to a degree far greater than Israel itself. The only exceptions are when Israel commits acts seen by both Palestinian governments as an assault of Palestinians/Arabs (Raiding Al-Aqsa, invading refugee camps, lynching West Bank Palestinians with IDF support).
- They do more than just fire rockets.
- Their non-military administrations are serious entities with shockingly accurate and effective methods (especially considering their buildings get blown up every year).
- They were legitimately elected, and the lack of further elections stems from Abbas being reluctant to hold Palestine-wide elections (because everyone knows he would lose, and that would jeopardize IDF-PA collaboration).

None of this means you have to endorse them, approve of them, or hold your tongue when denouncing them, but you also can't deny any of these specific traits. If it helps you wrap your head around this, they're closer to Iran than they are to ISIS. Undeniably commit awful acts, but also genuinely administrate; you can denounce Iran without claiming that they don't do anything of value, you can do the same for Hamas.

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003
SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>
Israel dropped 6000 bombs on Gaza in the first few days according to their own statements and have been running at least hundreds of sorties and other strikes a day ever since. Honestly the death toll very likely is off by a lot and not in the direction Biden is suggesting. Like there's no world where you are convincing me that Israel went from dogshit, lazy, complacent intelligence to generating 10k high quality up to the moment targeting packages with rigorous collateral damage assessments in 2 weeks. poo poo is a humanitarian disaster and its all par for the course, particularly when bibi is well known for demanding quantity over quality wrt strikes.

hell the real mystery is how Israel uses so many munitions to achieve so little tangible effect on hamas' capabilities and so much effect on civilians

Argas
Jan 13, 2008
SRW Fanatic




I mean, democracies love suppressing its citizens.

punishedkissinger
Sep 20, 2017

they really are going all in with the mcarthyism huh

https://twitter.com/StopAntisemites/status/1717560807322452053

Viller
Jun 3, 2005

Proud opponent of Israeli terror and Jewish fascism!

Neurolimal posted:

Regardless of how you feel about Hamas, there are undeniable facts about them:
- They have respected just about every ceasefire they've signed off on, to a degree far greater than Israel itself. The only exceptions are when Israel commits acts seen by both Palestinian governments as an assault of Palestinians/Arabs (Raiding Al-Aqsa, invading refugee camps, lynching West Bank Palestinians with IDF support).
- They do more than just fire rockets.
- Their non-military administrations are serious entities with shockingly accurate and effective methods (especially considering their buildings get blown up every year).
- They were legitimately elected, and the lack of further elections stems from Abbas being reluctant to hold Palestine-wide elections (because everyone knows he would lose, and that would jeopardize IDF-PA collaboration).

None of this means you have to endorse them, approve of them, or hold your tongue when denouncing them, but you also can't deny any of these specific traits. If it helps you wrap your head around this, they're closer to Iran than they are to ISIS. Undeniably commit awful acts, but also genuinely administrate; you can denounce Iran without claiming that they don't do anything of value, you can do the same for Hamas.

Thank you for the level headed response, they are hard to come by nowadays.

I just dont see how this stops while Hamas is still in power, its hard to believe for me that the population actually wanted stuff like October 7th to happen. An election supervised by a 3rd party not named Israel could change my whole view of the conflict, I'm sure I am not the only one also...

kiminewt
Feb 1, 2022

Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

As 7 October was apparently at least as bad as one hundred 9/11s, the one democracy in the Middle-East is bringing in an equally proportional equivalent of the Free Speech Zones. Live fire against internal protest.

https://twitter.com/YaelBerda/status/1717616644204216492

I would say "I doubt Israeli police will fire on Jewish citizens", but recent witness statements have at the very least opened that up to some doubt.

Relative to the population size, Oct 7th was 20 9/11s and it seems the réponse in Israel is proportional. The media and populace becoming very jingoistic and hawkish, repression of any dissenting thoughts, and lots of lots of quick decisions being made with support across the board that will have repercussions for decades.

mannerup
Jan 11, 2004

♬ I Know You're Dying Trying To Figure Me Out♬

♬My Name's On The Tip Of Your Tongue Keep Running Your Mouth♬

♬You Want The Recipe But Can't Handle My Sound My Sound My Sound♬

♬No Matter What You Do Im Gonna Get It Without Ya♬

♬ I Know You Ain't Used To A Female Alpha♬
.

mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Nov 5, 2023

Bel Shazar
Sep 14, 2012

kiminewt posted:

Relative to the population size, Oct 7th was 20 9/11s and it seems the réponse in Israel is proportional. The media and populace becoming very jingoistic and hawkish, repression of any dissenting thoughts, and lots of lots of quick decisions being made with support across the board that will have repercussions for decades.

Indiscriminately killing your prison population because part of that population broke out of prison and killed people is never a proportional response.

Kalit
Nov 6, 2006

The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

punishedkissinger posted:

they really are going all in with the mcarthyism huh

IMO, you probably shouldn't be giving this tweet any more publicity. This is an extremely lovely thing for antisemitism.org (or whatever) to do and giving it any more attention seems like a terrible thing.

punishedkissinger
Sep 20, 2017

Kalit posted:

IMO, you probably shouldn't be giving this tweet any more publicity. This is an extremely lovely thing for antisemitism.org (or whatever) to do and giving it any more attention seems like a terrible thing.

You're not wrong. Digging further, as suspected the framing in that tweet is utter bullshit.

https://patch.com/new-york/new-york-city/jewish-students-cooper-union-library-werent-danger-nypd-says

quote:

But Chell cast a slightly different portrait of what happened.

He said roughly 70 pro-Palestinian students and 20 pro-Israel students had squared off in a walkout for roughly two hours.

Plainclothes NYPD officers were nearby the entire time, Chell said.

Eventually, roughly 20 pro-Palestinian protesters then walked back into campu and failed to swipe into the school, Chell said. They spent about a half hour chanting and talking at the president's office before they left, he said.

Their path took them past a library, which prompted a school official to close its doors, he said.

"The students were not barricaded," he said. "The doors were open but closed."

Chell said the protesters did bang on the library's doors and windows for roughly 10 minutes before they left.

Typo
Aug 19, 2009

Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

punishedkissinger posted:

You're not wrong. Digging further, as suspected the framing in that tweet is utter bullshit.

https://patch.com/new-york/new-york-city/jewish-students-cooper-union-library-werent-danger-nypd-says

this sounds like DnD arguments but in real life


VitalSigns posted:

Doesn't Taiwan still claim to rule all of mainland China.

What a government says its maximal goals are, especially for internal political/propaganda reasons, and what it would actually be willing to accept in peace negotiations are two different things. A bunch of countries have territorial claims on others, it doesn't mean they can't be negotiated with or observe cease fires.

South Korea and North Korea. The UK and Argentina. Croatia and Serbia. The UK and Spain. Taiwan and all the countries that the People's Republic of China relinquished its claims on. Denmark and Canada (before 2022). Etc.

Not arguing the general point either way but the only reason why Taipei keeps a claim on mainland China is because Beijing pressures them to do it: since China consider dropping said claim to be tantamount to a declaration of independence

Typo fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Oct 26, 2023

mrfart
May 26, 2004

Dear diary, today I
became a captain.

HonorableTB posted:

It's not a great sign when the only power that can reign in Israel at all straight up doesn't believe the number of Palestinians killed:


These days I find myself thinking back to the time right before the Iraq war a lot. Everybody in Europe and around the globe was protesting. The us and uk just kept on coming up with dumb ‘proof’ of WMDs that nobody here took seriously (I guess a lot of people in the US did believe it). But in the end, it didn’t matter what people thought. They were gonna invade and nobody was gonna stop them.
And like you said, the only people who can stop Israel now are gonna let it do whatever it wants and cover their back with 2 carriers worth of planes, so nobody disturbs them while doing so.

selec
Sep 6, 2003

Kalit posted:

IMO, you probably shouldn't be giving this tweet any more publicity. This is an extremely lovely thing for antisemitism.org (or whatever) to do and giving it any more attention seems like a terrible thing.

What’s your strategy for ending this practice besides putting your head in the sand?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Hamelekim
Feb 25, 2006

And another thing... if global warming is real. How come it's so damn cold?
Ramrod XTreme

mrfart posted:

These days I find myself thinking back to the time right before the Iraq war a lot. Everybody in Europe and around the globe was protesting. The us and uk just kept on coming up with dumb ‘proof’ of WMDs that nobody here took seriously (I guess a lot of people in the US did believe it). But in the end, it didn’t matter what people thought. They were gonna invade and nobody was gonna stop them.
And like you said, the only people who can stop Israel now are gonna let it do whatever it wants and cover their back with 2 carriers worth of planes, so nobody disturbs them while doing so.

At some point countries in the region will have to take military action against Israel when Israel goes into Gaza and the deaths increase. The people in those countries will riot and threaten to overthrow their autocratic rulers if they don't.

There is a reason that leaders in the region have backed away from normalization with Israel, and it has nothing to do with a change of heart.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply